Physical Landorus is still good, which many forget
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]
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(motherfuckin' 500th post)
Physical Landorus is far more powerful, but it has infinitely better counters/checks in Bronzong and Skamory. Assuming you try to pull some sort of physical Rock Polish set:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in sand: 112-133 (34.25 - 40.67%) -- 50.27% chance to 3HKO
Obviously a Swords Dance set doesn't have any safe switch-ins (besides maybe Cresselia) but then you're revenged even easier than before, and Landorus is probably not pulling off a Double Dance set. Physical Landorus really only has a niche as a surprise attacker in this day and age.
Physical Landorus is far more powerful, but it has infinitely better counters/checks in Bronzong and Skamory. Assuming you try to pull some sort of physical Rock Polish set:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in sand: 112-133 (34.25 - 40.67%) -- 50.27% chance to 3HKO
Obviously a Swords Dance set doesn't have any safe switch-ins (besides maybe Cresselia) but then you're revenged even easier than before, and Landorus is probably not pulling off a Double Dance set. Physical Landorus really only has a niche as a surprise attacker in this day and age.
Please tell me how you were having trouble vs. stall. What did they switch into this thing? Because I can't think of any defensive Pokemon that counters U-turn Landorus-I.
How do stall teams counter this thing? Sure, there is sun stall so they have Cresselia to wall RP Landorus-I all day, but that'll go down after a few U-turn's or that infamous Choice Scarf / Choice Band Tyrnaitar + RP Landorus-I core. Same with Gengar as well. A small part of the reason we're suspecting Keldeo and Landorus-I is because they are so over-dominant and crush stall teams. If they both go to Ubers, our metagame will most likely take some dramatic conclusions and many will be stable at their current tier. This is probably the last step we are taking until our metagame is finished/
Just use the blobs? Employ smart play? Use Zapdos, Gastrodon, Amoongus, Togekiss, Mandibuzz, etc? Have Mons that Landorus cant ohko but that ohko back (bulky waters) so he doesnt get anything done?
Ive had pretty good success with stall on one hand at the top of the ladder (been top5 for almost 1 year with a stallteam....) and on the other in tournaments (ost9, bestladderer, superstars).
Maybe its not that stall doesnt work but that one is to lazy to build a good team or to grasp how to play stall in bw?
Dunno but stall still works for me....
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 200-237 (54.2 - 64.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 195-230 (45.13 - 53.24%) -- 92.19% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 203-239 (47.65 - 56.1%) -- 83.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 220-259 (54.59 - 64.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I am not saying that your wrong, but honestly, stall teams really don't take Landorus-I to well. Most Landorus-I run Modest so Blissey is suffering the 2HKO. Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock and Gastrodon mostly runs physically defensive. Sand damage makes this worse since they'll all be feeling clean OHKOes when losing Leftovers, especially Chansey.
A bit of a nitpick, but the standard Zapdos set for stall is Specially Defensive:
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 143-169 (37.33 - 44.12%) -- 66.41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I do not disagree with you, but stall still has quite a few ways to play around with it, note for example a lot of those HKOs go away if rocks isn't present, so they can easily play that game, Jellicent and Gastrodon can always run more special defense, and with Blissey you are rolling the dice for Focus Blast hits.
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 143-169 (37.33 - 44.12%) -- 66.41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I do not disagree with you, but stall still has quite a few ways to play around with it, note for example a lot of those HKOs go away if rocks isn't present, so they can easily play that game, Jellicent and Gastrodon can always run more special defense, and with Blissey you are rolling the dice for Focus Blast hits.
So um... what is going on with the suspect voting? The identification thread was locked a few days ago.
What you'd probably do is first switch into something like Amoonguss that can just quickly recover back any HP lost, then from that, bait the Landorus to use Earth Power and switch to Zapdos or something. Then Landorus can't OHKO Zapdos, while Zapdos OHKOs back and hence forces Landorus out.
According to Delko Aldaron discussed creating the voting thread in IRC so imagine very soon.
1. Amoonguss has no reliable recovery, it's Giga Drain isn't the strongest thing out there
2. Zapdos can't outpace Landorus
3. 3/4 of Landorus are Rock Polish, hence they use Modest Nature which OHKOes Zapdos after Stealth Rock. My calculations were demonstrating a Timid Nature.
The hold up was wanting to make sure Blind Voting was up and correct. (Previously it was not in the move from vbulletin). A test thread was created and everything looks to be ok so thread shouldn't be far away at all.
So? Youre just rattling down some calcs. I could do the same for Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Lando-T, *insertbwsweeperhere* and get a similar short list of Mons. Not to mention that Zapdos is goin to use an special defensive split because that is his best BW-Set. You also assume that Lando-I 'predicts' right which imo isnt a given seeing how Lando is often hardpressed to just use a certain Move or it might take a strong attack in its face.
From my experience with stall teams Landorus-I isnt the threat im usually most concerned about. Hes a threat sure but he isnt overbearing. And idk but if i still have success with stall in high-end tournaments then somehow i take that as a pretty good indicator. Lando-I isnt demolishing stall, bw2 just made stall really hard due to the increased number of mons and their diversified sets (more sets via dreamworld-abilities). But hard doesnt equal impossible. ;)
From my experience with stall teams Landorus-I isnt the threat im usually most concerned about. Hes a threat sure but he isnt overbearing. And idk but if i still have success with stall in high-end tournaments then somehow i take that as a pretty good indicator. Lando-I isnt demolishing stall, bw2 just made stall really hard due to the increased number of mons and their diversified sets (more sets via dreamworld-abilities). But hard doesnt equal impossible. ;)
I never said he was "huge" threat. I said he was threat, and that's a fact. And also I know that BW2 isn't demolishing stall. The difference is whether or not it's a threat or not. The Rock Polish set lacks enough coverage to destroy stall teams and the U-turn set doesn't have enough speed. Landorus-I is suspect for these reasons. It's hard to counter. I agree that Landorus-I isn't a huge threat, but it's definitely a threat which you have to admit, since it seems you've played stall before. :)
There will be a thread in the Blind Voting Subforum. Just be on the look out for it. It should be up soon enough.
Uhh, Regenerator on Amoonguss? I thought that was pretty obvious. And Amoonguss + Zapdos specifically wasn't even the point. The point was, when you first see a Landorus, you'd switch just keep switching until you get something out that can take a hit and OHKO Landorus back, which it seems you've completely missed that somehow...
Voting thread is up in Policy Review. This thread will still be open for discussion for a few days.
I agree with Conflict - stall faces bigger problems than Landorus. I earned reqs using stall virtually all the time, and it was not hard to cover for Landorus. This is because most conventional stall elements already fares well vs Sheer Force Landorus. Latias and Blissey, for instance are great checks to Landorus, but they were important for checking much more than that. Banning Landorus wont reduce their usage on defensive teams. Tyranitar wasn't a big problem for me, because I had multiple answers to Landorus without resorting to Latias. Meanwhile, I can wear down Tyranitar with SR + Spikes to the point that it cannot switch into Latias or after Landorus was dealt with. I even replaced a Landorus check, a specially-defensive Rotom-W, for ScarfTar, and my team was still able to deal with Landorus just fine.
The other 5% of the time, I used the classic offensive team with Keldeo and Landorus that my spl teammate offered, but I found it very inconsistent to use. Mainly because the Keldeo-Lando-TTar core is vulnerable to opposing Keldeo and Landorus, so the other three Pokemon must check these mons, not to mention all the other threats of BW2 OU. My stall team was much more prepared for these and other relevant threats, and I find it more consistent to use, despite the lengthy games. Yes, stall is very much alive even in BW2 OU. It's probably not as brainless to use as it was in previous gens, though, but that's not something that needs fixing.
Outside of stall, I still find Landorus manageable. Landorus's 101 Speed isn't cutting it when so many faster dangerous threats, such as Gengar, Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Alakazam, are around to obliterate it. Even mons like Garchomp or ScarfTar can check Landorus, and they weren't even designed for that. It's also true that Landorus cannot OHKO many of the threats of OU; Pokemon with decent special bulk like Politoed can tank a hit and offer the finishing blow, or even Volcarona can set up a QD and counter-sweep.
Landorus is simply not in the same league as past ubers like Genesect or maybe even Tornadus-T. Unlike Genesect and Tornadus-T's main offensive moves, STAB U-turn and Hurricane respectively, Landorus's Earth Power cannot be spammed without drawbacks, due to the many immunities and resistances to Ground-types in OU. Landorus also possesses many exploitable weaknesses compared to Genesect, who was impervious to priority moves, and Tornadus-T, who was not deathly weak to Ice Shard or Rain moves. I also find that Landorus is a worse user of U-turn, since Genesect receives STAB / DL boost, while Tornadus-T has Regenerator and the ability to U-turn out of faster threats like Alakazam or Latias. Combine these factor with its 101 base Speed, and you have quite a flawed mon.
The other 5% of the time, I used the classic offensive team with Keldeo and Landorus that my spl teammate offered, but I found it very inconsistent to use. Mainly because the Keldeo-Lando-TTar core is vulnerable to opposing Keldeo and Landorus, so the other three Pokemon must check these mons, not to mention all the other threats of BW2 OU. My stall team was much more prepared for these and other relevant threats, and I find it more consistent to use, despite the lengthy games. Yes, stall is very much alive even in BW2 OU. It's probably not as brainless to use as it was in previous gens, though, but that's not something that needs fixing.
Outside of stall, I still find Landorus manageable. Landorus's 101 Speed isn't cutting it when so many faster dangerous threats, such as Gengar, Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Alakazam, are around to obliterate it. Even mons like Garchomp or ScarfTar can check Landorus, and they weren't even designed for that. It's also true that Landorus cannot OHKO many of the threats of OU; Pokemon with decent special bulk like Politoed can tank a hit and offer the finishing blow, or even Volcarona can set up a QD and counter-sweep.
Landorus is simply not in the same league as past ubers like Genesect or maybe even Tornadus-T. Unlike Genesect and Tornadus-T's main offensive moves, STAB U-turn and Hurricane respectively, Landorus's Earth Power cannot be spammed without drawbacks, due to the many immunities and resistances to Ground-types in OU. Landorus also possesses many exploitable weaknesses compared to Genesect, who was impervious to priority moves, and Tornadus-T, who was not deathly weak to Ice Shard or Rain moves. I also find that Landorus is a worse user of U-turn, since Genesect receives STAB / DL boost, while Tornadus-T has Regenerator and the ability to U-turn out of faster threats like Alakazam or Latias. Combine these factor with its 101 base Speed, and you have quite a flawed mon.
I really think people planning to vote ban have exaggerated the power of Landorus, even in the context of Landorus-Keldeo-Tyranitar. It's a strong team, but it requires a strong player and is by no means unbeatable. I had no outstanding trouble with Landorus or that team composition on the ladder while using a variety of teams, and I know that I'm not even close to the best player to get voting reqs. I do not think using Landorus will make somebody able to beat significantly higher skilled opponents. I do not think Landorus totally outclasses other offensive threats. I do not consider it banworthy.
Were you consistently out-predicting the Landorus users? With Rotom-W, how did you avoid taking a Focus Blast on the switch-in, and then face the impending 70% doom (or U-turn if they want to play it safe)? As someone who's on the fence on which way to vote, this sounds as if you were simply the better player, not that Landorus doesn't have an inherent advantage.
^Landorus's Focus Blast only has a 16% chance of 2hko'ing Specially Defensive Rotom-W without rocks, and implying it hits twice. It's guaranteed with rocks up, but you're still implying the Landorus user has perfect prediction and it never lives up to its nickname. Running Modest puts you at >90%, but you're still implying the things stated above.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.86 - 55.44%) -- 16.41% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.86 - 55.44%) -- 16.41% chance to 2HKO
Couple of things. Firstly, if this was DPP then yes, I would argue that this point holds water, because its tremendously hard to see your counters. However BW has given us team preview, thus its very, very simple for me to see what checks my Landorus, and what you can and will switch into it. In addition, its not at all tricky for me to rig situations such as bringing in Landorus-I on a Ferrothorn for free, letting me spam Focus Blast (im not losing health from LO) while your Rotom-W loses a truckload of health.
Secondary in my experience I never really found myself forced to use Focus Blast: I would tend to jut use U-Turn, force it to take the U-Turn + SR (and lets assume SSs active to counter leftovers) and I still get to force Rotom-W out freely with my counter AND you cannot pain split off your health, gradually weakening it for Landorus-I. (Imagine how fucked you would be if I decided to bring in a Pursuiter to cripple you even more if Landorus could 'sweep' with Rotom-W out of the picture.) As well as this, you are limited in bringing in Rotom-W on much else (ie Keldeo) in case residual damage puts you over the cap. This is why the Tar / Keldeo / Landorus-I core is so frustrating to deal with, because Landorus-I and Keldeo share similar counters letting you easily overwelm them.
The point of this post isn't to say "Landorus-I has no counters" because thats just not true. What im trying to say is that the "Focus Miss" argument is just bullshit since you are ignoring the risk vs reward system (ie if bringing in Rotom-W is your BEST move then im prolly going to Focus Blast you) as well as Landorus-I freely being able to spam U-Turn, chipping away at your health until just one Focus Blast will KO, or I can Pursuit trap you, if if you can no longer check Landorus-I + Keldeo, or whatever. I have never ever been in a situation where I have been vulnerable to SDef Rotom-W, using Landorus-I, since it was extremely easy to cripple or otherwise beat then.
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