np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[X5Dragon]

If Keldeo is banned and Landorus becomes a blatant problem then it will be revisited

Well that's reassuring to hear, I and many others tend to view decisions on banning a pokemon or keeping it OU to be final. As a player who used the exact same HO Team on both ladders with no walls, I had many problems on the ladder but Landrous wasn't one. Landrous only sweeped me one when the player methodically robbed me of my opportunities to set up SR, change the weather, broke my sashes and brought him at full health at which point the only remaining mon I had couldn't OHKO.

In other words his Landrous needed to set up in perfect circumstances, one that wasn't available to any other player with a Landrous for all 200+ matches I fought.

It's unfortunate that many are resorting to theorymoning when it comes to Landrus effect on other playstyles especially stall (some even admitted at the end of their posts they don't play stall afterwards) and what kd24 called "petty pokemon revenge" and judge it within a core when we know it's not even the defining element of it.

 

[Schpoonman]

The reason I am planning to vote Ban on Landorus-I is that it's just so threatening to Stall and Balance teams. I'm talking about the U-turn set here, which imo is the best set Landorus-I can run. It's just so good at luring out it's few checks and easily taking them out with a U-turn, which gains loads of momentum for the Landorus-I user, as well as a weakened Landorus-I check (which will more than likely be eliminated from the rest of the game, but I don't want to bring team-mates into this) for the other players. No matter what happens, the Landorus-I user will always be in a good spot while having Landorus-I out on the field.

Now obviously Landorus-I is much easier to check with an offensive team. This includes Pokemon such as Scizor, Mamoswine, Lati@s, Weavile, etc. But these offensive teams are either...

a) going to be swept by the Rock Polish set once priority users have been eliminated
b) have to sacrifice a Pokemon every time Landorus-I switches in.

I cut out the last part, because it's irrelevant to what I'm going to say. This has been said dozens of times already, by players much better than me, and that is that Landorus is not stall's and balance's problem. Choice Band Terrakion, who 2HKOs the OU metagame without exception, is a bigger problem. Substitute Kyurem-B is a bigger problem. We dropped Kyurem-B even with the knowledge of what he would do to stall. Stall and balance are kinda shitty at the moment because of how powerful the metagame is. Sheer Force Landorus didn't suddenly make them bad, they have been bad since March 2011.

Now, in regards to your reasoning why Landorus seems to not care about offensive teams (Here's the thing, offensive teams don't give a shit about Landorus):

a) You can say that about ANY SWEEPER. If you don't have something that outspeeds DD Salamence and he kills off your Mamoswine and nothing else you have can take boosted Outrages, is Salamence broken? No, you just got outplayed. Hell, Rock Polish Landorus is probably Offense's smallest issue with Landorus, as he very very very rarely gets the set-up opportunity, and if he does, guess what? That's on you and the other guy, that's not Landorus-I being god tier.
b) This is a reality about Offense. You evaluate the situation and roll with the punches, hoping he isn't carrying something goofy that you needed your death fodder to cover.

 

[yee]

Yes, I agree. The point I`m trying to make is that I find BW OU broken in general. The powercreep is insane, but I can`t go into every suspect vote thinking "let`s just ban this thing. Then we have one less threat to care about". I wouldn`t hesitate a second to vote ban if I didn`t know that some of the unhealthy stuff would actually become even better without it.

FWIW, I've never believed this metagame was doomed to be inherently offensive out of the reach of a short amount of bans. It may seem a bit optimistic to say this, but there has been a ton of defensive power creep too. Here's the post where I explain why I think only Landorus and Keldeo are capable of causing an offensive bias in the metagame

Keldeo is by far the #1 pokemon in BW if you're looking for a king, Lando as #2, everything else clumped together at #3 imo. To put it simply, those two are the only two offensive threats that are so powerful that attempting to counter them with anything but more offense is putting yourself at a disadvantage. Keld don't need any help even from SR to break things like SpD Rotom-W /Tentacruel Amoonguss in rain, and Lando isn't countered in practice by things like Blissey / Rotom-W / Gastrodon etc. (even things like Milotic if you wanted to break out the most raw bulky water possible). By in practice I mean SR and sand damage factored in, which is every game if you want it to be basically.

It almost completely limits your options for those two to those two mons we all know about. There's no such thing as running a random SpD Mew or Milo or something to tank two EPs from Lando, and there's no just using Tentacruel or Gyarados as your backup water resist for Keldeo (Gyara can't even set up on Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump unless its basically max HP and no investment is just OHKOed by Specs Hydro after SR sometimes). If you have both of these two mons in BW2, you can't counter everything. It's said a lot but it is now the case that you won't be able to directly counter all of the top of the crop threats without relying on guesses / misses against at least one of them, which is different from the usual "this purposely built wallbreaker or uncommon set will pop up to get you once in a while".

The reason Keld is at #1 with Lando #2 is mostly because Keld wins the questionable offensive threat speed war comfortably at 108 (Lati@s aren't on the same page power wise) and Lando joins Keldeo in that tier above things like Terrakion / Garchomp / Latios etc. in terms of ability to whoop ass. All of those 3 can just be stacked against on balance or stall to ensure that it'll be something besides them that beats you, and other threats like Thund and Volc are obviously less spammable than the top two.

In case anyone wants clarity on what I mean by stacking, for any physical threat in BW2 the defensive power creep has probably outcreeped the offense. Lando-T / Quag / Tangrowth / Skarm and other physical walls will synergize with each other to the point where pure physical wallbreakers can't have an easy time against slow teams even if there's a lot of them; you have to resort to mixed stuff or different sets if you wanna try to beat stall teams (if there were any). For Latios it's sufficient IMO to just point out that Sand / Rain / Sun teams are there.

There is a big black dragon lurking in the corner that's obviously unfair to anything slower than it, but outside of that and maybe sleep mechanics there's no reason you can't run heavy stall. At worst you have to tack on a Weavile at the end for Dragon teams or something, more often just a general fast revenge killer like you would in DPP.

Edit- @ Lord of Bays I'm very willing to argue CB Terrakion is not a bigger problem for stall than Landorus. CB Terrakion is a one dimensional physical attacker that I don't think you need to overprepare for; it's strong but not unfair. I have an example team of Hippowdown / Forretress / SpD Rotom-W / Amoonguss / CB Terrakion / Scarf Jirachi that I usually play as stallish balance to counter offense, and the only threats I find dumb to face are excessive dragons and Landorus (I have to rely on misses or playing around it). Remove Lando and you already have a team that can counter or very easily all of the main threats on their own (which currently just isn't possible), remove Keldeo and I don't need to run that Dragon bait Amoonguss, which is a choice I had to make to deal with the big guns and an example of the pressure taken off when you remove either or both of these guys from the metagame.

 

[dice]

i don't really agree with the sentiments listed above because i do believe landorus is one of the biggest thorns in stall's side in the current metagame. kyurem-b is indeed a massive bitch to stall; however, subsitute / scarf / band varients and are countered by forretress as hidden power fire is nonexistent on these sets while sets with hidden power fire often lack an earth power. heatran covers the never seen hp fire / fusion bolt / ice beam / dragon claw set among a few other pokemon like will-o-wisp rotom-w, rain ferrothorn, jirachi, etc. which aren't at all hard to fit on stall-based teams.

keldeo is easily covered by pokemon like amoonguss, jellicent, celebi, dragonite, tentacruel, etc. depending on the set it runs. keep in mind that a typical build used in bw1 (and the best in my opinion) of hippowdon / heatran / tyranitar / jellicent / celebi / forretress covers all keldeo sets handily with jellicent for hp bug keldeo and celebi for the random ass CM + HP coverage or SubCM + Toxic Spikes etc. varients.

landorus on the other hand is a completely different story. if you haven't tried it, gyarados, one of the best landorus checks, is very inconsistent in stall as it is stealth rock weak and has to rely on resttalk (aka it sucks). celebi and lati@s are both nailed by u-turn while gengar is hit by psychic.. and yes psychic is actually quite a good move. you only miss out on balloon heatran, skarmory, and bronzong (among a few others obviously..) basically while you're able to actually ohko venusaur, gengar, etc. keep in mind the first two listed don't even switch into landorus practically ever. most stall builds are forced to use either zapdos or a blob to survive when the latter can be pursuit trapped and the former is stealth rock weak and is also nailed by tyranitar / prediction.. yes prediction is a two way street, but if you have a landorus in on jirachi you can basically u-turn for free since your opponent can't risk losing such an important pokemon most of the time and hit the counters. this is why zapdos and the blobs are shaky. stall worked well in bw1. bw2.. not so much.

i don't see how landorus doesn't get set-up opportunities in a metagame full of scarf keldeo, band tyranitar, etc. you make it seem like it's impossible to set up landorus. it can switch into jirachi and use the opportunity to try and RP since the opponent, like i stated earlier, is often not going to want to lose their jirachi. the risk vs reward factor is highly in the landorus's favor, and cm jirachi can't even stay in and body slam. all you have to do is trap or weakene latias or w/e and you're going to be fuck shit up. aqua jet and ice shard are rare and bullet punch doesn't ko landorus. sorry that most teams are hard-pressed to fit a mamoswine and you conclude i'm an awful player if i'm forced to use a choiced move that the opponent's team is probably baiting for a landorus set up.

 

[Schpoonman]

You're far more experienced than I am, so I'm a little lost on the difference between Landorus and Terrakion here. Locking yourself into the best STAB combination we have ever seen isn't really an issue as far as I can tell. And only physically defensive Hippowdon can take a hit from Terrakion without worrying. Amoonguss really needs to get a free switch into Close Combat or else it's still threatened by a 2HKO (and is easily EASILY 2HKO'd by Stone Edge), but nothing else wants to take a Close Combat (Jirachi can switch in on the revenge, but that's a revenge kill, that's a given). Assuming Landorus gets the Rock Polish up, Amoonguss can tank an Earth Power and Spore or HP Ice, SpDef Rotom has a very, very small chance to be 2HKOd by Focus Blast assuming both land and can also retaliate with Pain Split or Hydro Pump, and if you're running SpDef Hippo, you can also tank an Earth Power and then Ice Fang (does upwards of 70%) or Roar him out, letting Jirachi or Terrakion KO him if he tries to switch back in.

In fact, it really looks like the only member of your team that Landorus could even set up on is Terrakion locked into the wrong attack (something like X-Scissor, even Close Combat 2HKOs after Rocks, so a weak HP Ice or Ice Fang will definitely finish it off) or Jirachi locked into Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/whatever. Ice Punch obviously puts it down, and Iron Head 3HKOs while you're flinching it to death. I'm sorry, but the team you gave seems like it handles Landorus very, very well. Could you elaborate more on how Landorus is such a threat for your team?

 

[BKC]

landorus is probably the worst thing for that team to face [i helped yee build it for the first week of spl]. landorus comes in on forretress/hippowdon/after one of its teammates gets killed and immediately threatens to 2hko everything at bare minimum. plus if the two checks to it [amoong/rotomw] aren't at very high health, it can rock polish and it's just about gg [although half the time the fourth move doesn't even matter, all it has to use to threaten the team 90% of the time is earth power/focus blast].

also i know this isn't the thread for it but forretress is a shaky "counter" to kyurem-b, with no recovery [bar the unreliable and non-existent pain split] and the fact that earth power takes a good chunk out of it. plus gyro ball not only doesn't kill it, but it only has 8 pp which can be whittled away quickly by someone competent.

 

[ginganinja]

Worth noting that it doesn't even need to be forced into Rock Polishing to be bitch, since its still outspeeding and crippling 4 of those mons while the other 2 cannot switch into into Landorus-I at all. In addition Jirachi (and Terrakion I guess) has gotta be careful about the moves it gets locked into least Landorus-I gets that free RP and pushes for that sweep. I don't consider Rotom-W a very good Landorus-I check either since in the last 2 months laddering in a Landorus-I metagame, in my experience it was very simple to beat it with Landorus-I (set up SR and nail a Focus Blast once if im RP, simply U-Turn on it once or something with SR up if im 4 attacks and it goes down fast). Ice Fang from Hippowdon also costs a moveslot and Hippowdon is strapped for them as it is when it usually wants STAB move + SR + Roar + Slack Off. Note that im not saying that Landorus-I 6-0s that team 100% of the time, im just agreeing with yee and BKC that the team is vulnerable to it, although it can be played around.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I cut out the last part, because it's irrelevant to what I'm going to say. This has been said dozens of times already, by players much better than me, and that is that Landorus is not stall's and balance's problem. Choice Band Terrakion, who 2HKOs the OU metagame without exception, is a bigger problem. Substitute Kyurem-B is a bigger problem. We

dropped Kyurem-B even with the knowledge of what he would do to stall. Stall and balance are kinda shitty at the moment because of how powerful the metagame is. Sheer Force Landorus didn't suddenly make them bad, they have been bad since March 2011.

I wouldn't say stall is a bad play style at all, which is why on the higher end of of the ladder I was basically always facing stall teams 50% of the time. Sure, they are less viable because of Pokemon you mentioned (such as Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Terrakion, etc), but stall is still being used by higher ranked battlers (at least on the ladder). SF Landorus didn't suddenly make stall bad, but it's a huge factor that makes it hard for a team builder to cover all threats effectively, unlike the other Pokemon you mentioned. I wouldn't agree that Terrakion is a bigger problem, as the only sets that give stall problems are SD Terrakion, and Banded Terrakion, which I believe most stall teams have a "good" answer to. Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Latias etc are all pretty good switch ins to Terrakion, you scout it's set, and play along from there. The same can be said about Kyurem-B. While it can take a dump on stall teams, stall has quite a few good answers to Kyurem B, such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Heatran (again, you need to scout the sets first, like with many Pokemon).

However, when you look at Landorus in the same situation, you have no good counters, which I explained earlier in my post. Either something is being 2hko'd by Landorus, or something is going to come in, be weakened by U-turn, and nothing can stop Landorus-I just coming in again and wreaking the team. Also, against stall, I don't like the argument that Landorus-I takes 22.5% from using U-turn (and SR), and has to take another 12% from switching in, because you have to remember that Landorus is immune to Spikes, Sand, Toxic Spikes, etc, which means other stall breakers don't match up to Landorus-I's ability to demolish stall.

 

[BKC]

heatran is not an answer to kyurem-b. if kyu-b doesn't have earth power, it's cb, in which case outrage is ripping it in half while tran's not doing much back anyway. jirachi also can't ohko with iron head while it takes heavy damage from either earth power or cb outrage. ferrothorn is probably the best counter but it's got the same problems forretress does; lack of reliable recovery, still takes more than it'd like to from kyu-b's attacks, and only 8 gyro ball pp. i won't even go into subroost hone claws dragon tail...

stall was fine before sheer force lando [and kyu-b]. yes, there were other things introduced in bw2 that aren't exactly fun for stall to face, like garchomp and keldeo, but they aren't anywhere near lando [and kyu-b] in terms of ability to tear stall apart with minimal or no effort.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

heatran is not an answer to kyurem-b. if kyu-b doesn't have earth power, it's cb, in which case outrage is ripping it in half while tran's not doing much back anyway. jirachi also can't ohko with iron head while it takes heavy damage from either earth power or cb outrage. ferrothorn is probably the best counter but it's got the same problems forretress does; lack of reliable recovery, still takes more than it'd like to from kyu-b's attacks, and only 8 gyro ball pp. i won't even go into subroost hone claws dragon tail...

stall was fine before sheer force lando [and kyu-b]. yes, there were other things introduced in bw2 that aren't exactly fun for stall to face, like garchomp and keldeo, but they aren't anywhere near lando [and kyu-b] in terms of ability to tear stall apart with minimal or no effort.

Well, Heatran and Jirachi are the most viable checks, and in practice, they do a general good job in countering Kyurem-B. Obviously Banded Outrage is going to be 2HKO basically everything, but we shouldn't be focusing too much on Kyurem-B since this thread is dedicated to Landorus-I. I actually think Kyurem-B is also broken, but there's no point in mentioning it in a suspect thread for Landorus-I.

I agree with you that stall was fine without these two monsters, which I tried to get across in my previous post about mentioning how on the higher end of the ladder stall was a pretty common play style.

 

[Tyranical]

Kyurem-B isn't broken. It's vulnerable to every entry hazard, bullet punch, Mach punch, getting revenge killed by Lati@s etc. I personally think the substitute set id the most effective against stall CB is not quite as good. Choice Scarf Kyurem-B I'd surprisingly a great late game cleaner, so overall I believe it's powerful but not broken.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Kyurem-B isn't broken. It's vulnerable to every entry hazard, bullet punch, Mach punch, getting revenge killed by Lati@s etc. I personally think the substitute set id the most effective against stall CB is not quite as good. Choice Scarf Kyurem-B I'd surprisingly a great late game cleaner, so overall I believe it's powerful but not broken.

Again, this isn't a discussion on Kyurem-B, which is why I didn't bring my opinion into this thread because I knew something like this would happen. Discussion about whether Kyurem-B is broken or not is for another day and another time. Just post about Landorus-I

 

[Tyranical]

Again, this isn't a discussion on Kyurem-B, which is why I didn't bring my opinion into this thread because I knew something like this would happen. Discussion about whether Kyurem-B is broken or not is for another day and another time. Just post about Landorus-I

You're right we should stick to Landorus-I, honestly I'm not sure it's as powerful as some people make it out to be. Landorus has that unfortunate (or fortunate depending on what side you're on) 4x weakness to Ice moves. Mamoswine will stop Lando regardless of his speed. Lets not forget that it can be hard to set up in offensive teams, and since everyone and their mother has Scizor, Landorus needs to keep good health in order to survive Bullet Punch. It's a top tier sweeper but I think it might just pass as OU not Uber.

 

[spooky96]

You're right we should stick to Landorus-I, honestly I'm not sure it's as powerful as some people make it out to be. Landorus has that unfortunate (or fortunate depending on what side you're on) 4x weakness to Ice moves. Mamoswine will stop Lando regardless of his speed. Lets not forget that it can be hard to set up in offensive teams, and since everyone and their mother has Scizor, Landorus needs to keep good health in order to survive Bullet Punch. It's a top tier sweeper but I think it might just pass as OU not Uber.

No, you're wrong there, Life Orb Earth Power from 252 SPA Timid nature is actually enough to OHKO many things. Throw in Focus Blast, Psychic and HP Ice and you have excellent coverage. However, your other points are correct that Mamoswine puts an end to it no matter what, but it is unfortunate that it has low usage. And Scizor's point is correct up to some extend too, because that Bullet Punch does about 60%. But Scizor's CB BP does that to everything that exists.

 

[Pridy]

Thing is that Landorus has a relatively good time dealing with hazards as it only takes neutral damage from SR and thats it. It's not a difficult feat to keep him alive for however long the player wants until they feel ready to start using it

Banning Sheer Force itself should also be a consideration to save Landorus the mon itself as was done with Garchomp

 

[Spinda]

Sheer force itself isn't luckbased, it isn't uncompetititve, it does not take skill out of the game.
It would nerf Nidoking, force Darmanitan to run (lol) Zen Mode, etc.

 

[Halcyon.]

Sheer Force isn't broken, so we shouldn't ban that. If landorus is broken, then Landorus alone should be banned, not an entire ability (not to mention things like the Nidos, Druddigon, and Darmanitan would be a lot less useful without Sheer Force). We banned Sand Veil because it was uncompetitive and was added to the evasion clause. Sheer Force itself isn't an uncompetitive ability.

 

[Tyranical]

Thing is that Landorus has a relatively good time dealing with hazards as it only takes neutral damage from SR and thats it. It's not a difficult feat to keep him alive for however long the player wants until they feel ready to start using it



Banning Sheer Force itself should also be a consideration to save Landorus the mon itself as was done with Garchomp

^^ninja'd by halcyon of light :/

No we shouldn't ban sheer force. It's not overpowered on mons like Conkeldurr. If Landorus is overpowered with Sheer Forxe, then ban Landorus not Sheer Force.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Thing is that Landorus has a relatively good time dealing with hazards as it only takes neutral damage from SR and thats it. It's not a difficult feat to keep him alive for however long the player wants until they feel ready to start using it

Banning Sheer Force itself should also be a consideration to save Landorus the mon itself as was done with Garchomp

But that then leads to complex banning, which is road you don't want to go down. Sooner or later we'd start seeing Giratina-O in OU if it's restricted in some way. Same with Kyorge and Groundon, and eventually you're going to have this metagame with a load of restrictions and no Uber's tier, only banned abilities and moves. This isn't what Smogon wants, as we aim to create the most competitive metagame. The same can be said about just banning Speed Boost on Blaziken, and Sand Rush on Excadrill, as without these abilities these Pokemon aren't broken. But like I said, smogon doesn't want to start complex banning.

Edit: I didn't read the original post correctly, I thought he said that we should ban Sheer Force on Landorus-I, but it turns out he said we should just ban Sheer Force, which is a not a great idea that Halcyon of Light and The Tyranitar have already pointed out. I won't delete my post just in case someone was thinking of the idea about just banning Sheer Force on Landorus-I.

 

[Aankhein]

Thing is that Landorus has a relatively good time dealing with hazards as it only takes neutral damage from SR and thats it. It's not a difficult feat to keep him alive for however long the player wants until they feel ready to start using it

Banning Sheer Force itself should also be a consideration to save Landorus the mon itself as was done with Garchomp

Sand Veil wasnt banned specifically to save Garchomp....it was deemed inherently broken, not just broken on Garchomp.

Sheer Force is not inherently broken, unless you want to argue otherwise.

 

[MikeDawg]

But that then leads to complex banning, which is road you don't want to go down. Sooner or later we'd start seeing Giratina-O in OU if it's restricted in some way. Same with Kyorge and Groundon, and eventually you're going to have this metagame with a load of restrictions and no Uber's tier, only banned abilities and moves. This isn't what Smogon wants, as we aim to create the most competitive metagame. The same can be said about just banning Speed Boost on Blaziken, and Sand Rush on Excadrill, as without these abilities these Pokemon aren't broken. But like I said, smogon doesn't want to start complex banning.

#logicalfallaciesgalore!

It doesn't matter if the... Less than aware portion of the community demands a slippery slope, the council decides what is suspected.

And really, people mention how soon we'll have lv 70 kyogre running around, but has this ever been anything more than a dumb theory? After aldaron's, did anyone at all ACTUALLY say "if drizzle and swift swim is banned, why can't we let level 80 giratina in ou?" (Hint: no)

On the topic of landorus, it is much easier to set up than people make out (if it even has rp) and is much easier to keep alive than people make out (if it even has u-turn)

I think that lando "struggles" so much only because the meta is partly centralized around it. Sure, you haven't gotten swept by lando in a long time, but have you ever considered that the reason for that is the favt that you have a celebi, rotom-w, and gyarados on your team? Or maybe it's that chansey+latias. Or mamoswine+rotom-w+scizor.

It is a NECCESITY to stack checks and counters for lando, and that sheer neccesity is responsible for any offensive "decline" it has had. If every single team ran shed shell heatran, genesect wouldn't be much of a problem either.

that is what would eventually happen

#stilllogicalfallaciesgalore!

"

The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. Because no proof is presented to show that such extreme hypotheticals will in fact occur, this fallacy has the form of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear. In effect the argument at hand is unfairly tainted by unsubstantiated conjecture."​

In other words, you have no idea what will happen and attempting to establish things like lv70 ubers as a great possibility is stupid as hell. ESPECIALLY when, as mentioned, suspecting is decided by the COUNCIL, not the average sheep of the forums. ​

​

The difference between Giratina in ou and excadrill/blaziken is that those two would benefit greatly from the complex ban. Blaziken would fit into some lower tier very well (hell, I'd go use him in ou just for the hell of it because it looks so bad ass) and excadrill would be an almost infinitely improved version of donphan. ​

​

 

[ShootingStarmie]

#logicalfaliciesgalore!

It doesn't matter if the... Less than aware portion of the community demands a slippery slope, the council decides what is suspected.

And really, people mention how soon we'll have lv 70 kyogre running around, but has this ever been anything more than a dumb theory? After aldaron's, did anyone at all ACTUALLY say "if drizzle and swift swim is banned, why can't we let level 80 giratina in ou?" (Hint: no)

Well of course it's a theory, but if we start complex banning that is what would eventually happen. And actually many people have actually asked for stuff like Blaze Blaziken to be tested in OU, as well as Sand Rush Excadrill, so no, it isn't a myth or rumour. I didn't say people would want Giratina-O straight away in OU, but I said this is what complex banning would lead to.

Please take into account this is only an assumption, since no one knows what would actually happen if we started complex banning.

 

[BKC]

if we were to ban sheer force it'd have to be broken / bad for the metagame / uncompetitive / stupid / whatever you want to call the reasons we ban things for on everything that has it, like with sand veil. i don't think it exactly pushes darmanitan /druddigon / nidoking / nidoqueen / tauros / conkeldurr over the edge, so there you go.

 

[haunter]

Well of course it's a theory, but if we start complex banning that is what would eventually happen.

It's a dumb theory and that is not going to happen until the current council based system is operative. Please stick to the topic of Landorus' tiering and don't worry about possible future complex bans. Thank you.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Same with Speed Boost on Blaziken. Speed Boost isn't broken on Ninjask, Sharpedo, Yanmega etc, so it shouldn't be banned just to keep Blaziken out of Ubers.
After seeing Haunter's post I won't be talking about complex banning any more