Lower Tiers Little Cup Viability Rankings - Mark II

[iss]

LITTLE CUP VIABILITY RANKINGS THREAD MARK II

credit to Hawkstar for the image​

Mark I

This is the LC Viability Rankings thread, where we attempt to rate the metagame's Pokemon on their usefulness.

S rank: These Pokemon are unique. They are the best at what they do, and in the case of S-Rank Pokemon, what they do is an important role in the metagame. Their traits allow them to have a large impact on the metagame. There is no formula for an S-Rank Pokemon; each is truly unique.

A rank: These Pokemon are great. In many situations, they are able to perform their role (whether it be offense, defense, or support) just as well as S-Rank Pokemon. However, they have flaws; for example, requiring specific support, or having hard counters that are commonly seen in the metagame.

B rank: These Pokemon are situationally great. Generally, B-Rank Pokemon tend to have issues that cancel out their potential power. Whether it be a crippling Stealth Rock weakness or a need to obtain difficult setup, these Pokemon truly shine only when a large amount of support is provided to them. However, given the correct scenario, B-Rank Pokemon can be deadly effective.

C rank: These Pokemon are okay. C-Rank Pokemon usually have flaws that are not so easily addressed via teambuilding. This can range from simply lacking power to having no niche in the current metagame. In very specific situations, these Pokemon can do well, but there is usually no good reason to use these Pokemon on a toptier competitive team.

D rank: These Pokemon are bad. Not only are these Pokemon inherently flawed due to their traits, they also have an incredibly difficult time fitting into the current metagame. D-Rank Pokemon have trouble doing anything against competitive teams. They should almost never be picked for a competitive team.

E rank: These Pokemon are atrocious. E-Rank is reserved for the worst of the worst; those who are deeply flawed through their stats or movepool. They are completely outclassed by even D-Rank Pokemon. E-Rank Pokemon should never be picked for a competitive team.

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀​

S rank:

Drilbur

Mienfoo

Misdreavus

Murkrow

Porygon

Snover
​

A rank:

Abra

Chinchou

Clamperl

Foongus

Hippopotas

Lileep

Magnemite

Riolu

Scraggy

Staryu

Timburr

Tirtouga
​

B rank:

High:

Croagunk

Drifloon

Dwebble

Ferroseed

Frillish

Larvesta

Omanyte

Slowpoke
​

Mid:

Archen

Bronzor

Cottonee

Houndour

Lickitung

Natu

Pawniard

Ponyta

Sandshrew

Shellder

Tentacool

Vullaby

Wynaut​

Low:

Axew

Diglett

Dratini

Gastly

Goldeen

Grimer

Koffing

Magby

Munchlax

Shelmet

Shroomish

Taillow

Zigzagoon
​

C rank:

High:

Anorith

Aipom

Cranidos

Doduo

Exeggcute

Golett

Machop

Stunky

Teddiursa

Turtwig​

Mid:

Aron

Buizel

Darumaka

Deino

Elekid

Mantyke

Meowth

Smoochum​

Low:

Cacnea

Mankey

Minccino

Nosepass

Purrloin

Sandile

Shellos

Totodile

Woobat

Zorua
​

D-Rank:

Chimchar

Cubone

Eevee

Oddish

Onix

Pineco

Trapinch

Wingull
​

E rank:

Everything else!
​

 

[iss]

Additionally, there will be a Pokemon under discussion each week. This week, we will be discussing the tierings of Abra and Croagunk! Make arguments as to whether these Pokemon should be moved to a different tier or stay in their current ones.

However, feel free to discuss any Pokemon in the rankings, and suggest rankings for those that are not.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm not an expert or anything, but why is axew Low B-rank?
Also, how come drilbur is still S-Rank? I'm pretty sure there was some disscussion about moving it down to High A Rank.

 

[Delver]

I think abra is where it should be. It's one of the most innately powerful special sweepers with good speed and an even better ability. Its focus sash set makes it a really good revenge killer too. Its terrible defenses really limits what it could do, thats for sure, but its flexibility in its role on the same set as well as its innate power makes it fit into B from my perspective.

Croagunk on the other hand is a dying star. It was an awesome check back before the Great Unbanning, and even held its own for a while during it. But as of now, in this metagame, Misdreavus and Murkrow are just way too common for it to be A teir. Sure, it has sucker punch for missy, but that's not really helpful. she comes in on a fighting type more (or fuck your failed sucker punch) and then procedes to either double switch a sucker punch or just say fuck it and go for a will o wisp. I've seen Darkpulse (or maybe shadow ball) being ran on it for these situations, so its not totally defenseless, but its just reallly risky. Murkrow also just one shots it with brave bird (and probably drill peck). I dont think its trash, as its still an AWESOME fighting/scraggy check, I just dont think it's deserving of A teir anymore. I say croagunk to B




Edit: This week is for Croagunk and Abra; save other discussions for later. Also editing on this forum is horse shit. My bad i didn't read 2OP fully. Still editing is horseshit. To answer your Question: I'm pretty sure Axew sufferes from a move pool issue in that the only thing it has to really abuse its Moldbreaker is Dig. Its not a terrible sweeper, but there are better dragon Dancers in the teir. As for Drilbur, I compared it to Scraggy, saying that while both are amazing sweepers with solid and common counters, scraggy doesnt have a non sweeping set while Drilbur can still do offensive/defensive support for teams. When i voted for scraggy as an A teir, my main reasoning was that scraggy cant do anything BESIDES its sweeper set. Drilbur can, and honestly thats enough for me to keep it S.

 

[Axisotaku]

Id swap the ranks of Omanyte with Dwebble or at least upgrade Dwebble to B-High. I think Dwebble as a sr user is much better thanks to his Sturdy/Oran berry set and Omanyte is outclassed by Clamperl as a smasher, the only thing where Omanyte shine is that he can switch in on Murkrow. That's it. beyond that his rock typing doesn't help him at all with all the fighting types. On almost all my teams whenever there's a Dwebble on the other team i'm like crap... that thing is so annoying. But not so much when there's an Omanyte.

 

[Rowan]

no Delver, Croagunk should definitely remain A tier in my opinion. It is such a good glue to so many teams this meta. Often you'll end up with 5 Pokemon and realise you're weak to Shell Smashers or Timburr or just need some general priority and Croagunk fits the glue role perfectly. If you look at the Pokemon in A tier, it can handle all of them bar Hippo, Foongus and opposing Croagunk. In the S-tier it can make a shaky check to Misdreavus and Mienfoo, but it can also make a good situational check to weakened LO Krow, LO Drilbur and Scarf Snover thanks to its priority and their frailty, dealing well over 50% to all of them with the combination of Fake Out + Vacuum Wave. Not only can it abuse priority, Bulk Up is also really legit once you remove some Pokemon although it's less reliable with Missy and Murkrow. It does have plenty of set-up opportunities with a water-type or fighting-type being on almost every team.

also iss, Chinchou isn't in the OP. You of all people...

 

[Shouting]

Croagunk doesn't really counter shell smashers that well. All smashers can survive a fake out + vacuum wave after set up (excluding Omanyte and Tirtouga, but you have a VERY small chance of actually KOing them) , and they all OHKO Croagunk bar Tirt which does over 50% with a boosted Stone Edge though.

I think it should move to B as as well, there are a lot of lures for it like Psychic Staryu and Zen Headbutt Scraggy. It can switch in on a lot of things though, and if you drop fake out for knock off, you will remove a bunch of eviolites.

Speaking of staryu, I think it should move down to B, incredibly easy to wall, and can't spin against Frillish, and Misdreavus is hit or miss. It's very frail, so even though it's meant to check stuff like Ponyta and Larvesta, it can actually lose to them if loses just a little bit of health.

 

[apt-get]

Croagunk doesn't really counter shell smashers that well. All smashers can survive a fake out + vacuum wave after set up (excluding Omanyte and Tirtouga, but you have a VERY small chance of actually KOing them) , and they all OHKO Croagunk bar Tirt which does over 50% with a boosted Stone Edge though.

I think it should move to B as as well, there are a lot of lures for it like Psychic Staryu and Zen Headbutt Scraggy. It can switch in on a lot of things though, and if you drop fake out for knock off, you will remove a bunch of eviolites.

Speaking of staryu, I think it should move down to B, incredibly easy to wall, and can't spin against Frillish, and Misdreavus is hit or miss. It's very frail, so even though it's meant to check stuff like Ponyta and Larvesta, it can actually lose to them if loses just a little bit of health.

Yeah of course, a 120BP move coming from 16SpA is so weak, Thunderbolt is so lame too, and it's just so frail because recover and eviolite don't exist, right? Being the best spinner in LC totally doesn't make it A-rank. Nope.

 

[Shouting]

Staryu is countered by a whole bunch of really common LC threats....Foongus, Shroomish, Porygon, Lickitung, Munchlax, Cottonee, Croagunk, Lileep, Dratini, Axew, Chinchou, Ferroseed, Cacnea, Exeggcute etc. You'll find at least 1 if not 2 or 3 of these on your average LC team. I'm also pretty sure it loses to a lot of common threats 1v1, like Magnemite and Scraggy.
I also wouldn't say it's the best spinner in LC, it can't spin against Lileep or Ferroseed which are incredibly common hazard setters. It also is spinblocked against Frillish and you have to be lucky with speed ties against Misdreavus. Recover and eviolite do help Staryu, but full offensive and speed investment leave it very frail because it has such low HP.

For example, Ponyta. Wild charge does well over 50% to Staryu, so it will need recover in order to switch in once more, Ponyta can even potentially beat staryu by winning the tie and hitting you again before it recovers, although it might not be reliable it could still happen. Also, if the Ponyta in question carries Sunny day, it is even more likely that Staryu will lose. Larvesta can even KO Staryu with stealth rock in play with Wild Charge also, and takes 45% from U-turn.

It is 2HKO'd by a lot of STAB attacks too, like Scraggy's unboosted Hi Jump Kick, Diglett's Earthquake, Drifloon's Acrobatics, and a lot of common choice scarf STABs like Murkrow's Brave Bird, Gastly's Sludge Bomb, Misdreavus' Shadow Ball, Minefoo's Hi Jump Kick, etc.

 

[Pen Ink]

Croagunk on the other hand is a dying star. It was an awesome check back before the Great Unbanning, and even held its own for a while during it. But as of now, in this metagame, Misdreavus and Murkrow are just way too common for it to be A teir. Sure, it has sucker punch for missy, but that's not really helpful. she comes in on a fighting type more (or fuck your failed sucker punch) and then procedes to either double switch a sucker punch or just say fuck it and go for a will o wisp. I've seen Darkpulse (or maybe shadow ball) being ran on it for these situations, so its not totally defenseless, but its just reallly risky. Murkrow also just one shots it with brave bird (and probably drill peck). I dont think its trash, as its still an AWESOME fighting/scraggy check, I just dont think it's deserving of A teir anymore. I say croagunk to B.

Saying Croagunk is bad because of Murkrow is like saying Mienfoo, Timburr, and Scraggy are bad because of Murkrow.

Croagunk doesn't really counter shell smashers that well. All smashers can survive a fake out + vacuum wave after set up (excluding Omanyte and Tirtouga, but you have a VERY small chance of actually KOing them) , and they all OHKO Croagunk bar Tirt which does over 50% with a boosted Stone Edge though.

I think it should move to B as as well, there are a lot of lures for it like Psychic Staryu and Zen Headbutt Scraggy. It can switch in on a lot of things though, and if you drop fake out for knock off, you will remove a bunch of eviolites.


Speaking of staryu, I think it should move down to B, incredibly easy to wall, and can't spin against Frillish, and Misdreavus is hit or miss. It's very frail, so even though it's meant to check stuff like Ponyta and Larvesta, it can actually lose to them if loses just a little bit of health.

+2 200+ SpA Omanyte Ice Beam vs. 212 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 14-20 (70 - 100%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
108+ SpA Croagunk Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (45.45 - 54.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Besides that, though, using Croagunk as a Shell Smash check isn't really that great. Croagunk is used to wall all fighting types bar Zen Headbutt Scraggy, which is pretty rare. It's the best check to Scraggy and the priority that it provides is very useful. It also checks Misdreavous, which more than not is going to waste a turn WoW'ing it so it won't even 2HKO Croagunk (it has a 0.39% chance to 2hko it anyways). Not only that, but it provides a very useful water resistance for more offensively oriented teams that don't want another fighting weakness, ergo Lileep. It checks Mienfoo, Snover, Chinchou, Lileep, Porygon, Scraggy, Timburr, Tirtouga... do I have to go on? Psychic Staryu is dumb, you lose to Frillish and other Staryu.

...Can you explain to me how Staryu can lose to Ponyta and Larvesta? Neither can 1HKO with Flare Blitz nor Wild Charge, and if you're running Wild Charge on Larvesta you're probably doing it wrong. The best both can do is hit it with Wild Charge on the switch, and then they're forced out. On that switch, Staryu can do the following:
>Rapid Spin
>Recover
>Attack

Staryu doesn't always 2HKO Frillish, but Frillish isn't doing much back either. Misdreavous has a good chance to be 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks, too.

 

[TUO]

Priority cool thing gunk isn't the only set (or its best imo) The Bulk Up Croagunk set and even random cool stuff with Physical based gunk can do really well. Beating out Timburr 1v1 in a BU war, and being an awesome glue to pretty much everything you would want to be while still maintaining offensive presence without a SR weakness. It can run Ice Punch from the tutors to BU Lure foongus after Sleep clause, or you can use the standard BU set which lets you just smash most fighting types and setup on it. BU Gunk is something else that needs to be taken into consideration in its ranking placement.

 

[Electrolyte]

My only problem with Croagunk is that while it certainly is bulky it's really not powerful enough to hit worth a damn. For instance, Corkscrew said that Croagunk can check Timburr, but that really isn't true; Drain Punch does jack shit and Croagunk just ends up being Bulk Up bait. After even just one Bulk Up, Timburr is doing more to Croagunk than Croagunk is doing to Timburr with the exact same move- so I wouldn't exactly call it a good check. Of course, Croagunk does have other niches, such as walling Mienfoo and non-ZHB Scraggy, (which are both fairly common) Water-types, and Grass-types, but again other than Scraggy and Tirtouga none of the things that it walls will take any serious damage from its attacks bar Knock Off. Its Fake Out and Vacuum Wave are also very weak and can rarely deal more than 33% to a neutral opponent in conjunction. It's bulky, but it's weak, so I too think it should go in B+.


Staryu, on the other hand, should stay where it is. Shouting is right in that Staryu is not extremely solid defensively but that is extremely besides the point. Staryu should be in A-tier not because it can be a good defensive Pokemon but because it is one of the best Rapid Spinners in OU and can function as a fast, moderately powerful cleaner and general multipurpose check. Other than Drilbur, really nothing can spin more reliably than Staryu can. So what if it's "easily" walled? (I don't even agree with that 100%) Unless you're using a Ghost-type, sending in a Foongus isn't really going to stop Staryu from spinning hazards away and then switching to something like a Murkrow to put your opponent in a tough position. Staryu's main niche is spinning, and because it is very hard to stop it from doing just that, Staryu deserves to be in A-tier. You could argue that Misdreavus can handle Staryu, but HPump can 2HKO, so it's not exactly the most reliable "counter". Frillish too can be 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock or Hail / Sandstorm, and that's pretty much the whole entire list of Ghost-types in LC.

That in itself is already quite enough to make Staryu a top-tier Pokemon, and that's not even the end of what it can do. It is one of the fastest Pokemon in Little Cup and can hit like a truck too- as Apt-Get said, 180 BP Hydro Pump off of a 16 SpA hits nearly everything hard, and when backed by Ice Beam / Thunderbolt coverage that hits everything bar Chinchou at least neutrally, it is quite difficult to wall Staryu without using specially invested walls that bulkier setup sweepers such as Scraggy or Timburr can easily take advantage of. Staryu can not only spin reliably but it can also function as a fast, powerful, and reliable attacker- let it stay in A-tier.


I brought this up on IRC and would like to repeat it here- Machop really needs to rise to at least C-tier High. Machop is definitely one of the worst competitively viable Fighting-types in LC and is outclassed by Timburr in nearly every regard, but that definitely does not warrant it dropping all the way down to C-tier low (below Aipom and even Aron, seriously, guys) Choice Scarf Machop is still a very frightening and powerful attacker, and can easily throw even a well prepared team into chaos with its fast and powerful Dynamic Punch. Because of Dynamic Punch's added confusion effect, Machop is much harder to reliably counter and check than some Pokemon that are even higher than it on the rankings- such as Aipom or Elekid. Because of its power and good enough Speed, its Choice Scarf set is a very reliable late game cleaner, and definitely deserves to be higher than it is right now, even if it's outclassed stat-wise by upper tier Pokemon.

 

[Shouting]

Staryu can 2HKO offensive Misdreavus but also keep in mind that it can do the same to Staryu as well with shadow ball, so it's really based on speed ties if it switches in on rapid spin/recover. Also, Specially defensive Cursed Body Frillish with giga drain will block staryu from spinning almost all the time. The only way Strayu will win if Frillish is weakened a considerable amount and uses thunderbolt when it switches in. Even if it does that, there is a chance that thunderbolt will be disabled and Staryu still loses. Giga Drain is a 2HKO on staryu so it will always win against it.

Grass types don't stop it from spinning but grass types / proygon / chinchou have much, much more survivability than Staryu and thus they will always outlast Staryu in the long run and it has no chance of spinning on Ferroseed and Lileep

 

[Pen Ink]

Staryu can 2HKO offensive Misdreavus but also keep in mind that it can do the same to Staryu as well with shadow ball, so it's really based on speed ties if it switches in on rapid spin/recover. Also, Specially defensive Cursed Body Frillish with giga drain will block staryu from spinning almost all the time. The only way Strayu will win if Frillish is weakened a considerable amount and uses thunderbolt when it switches in. Even if it does that, there is a chance that thunderbolt will be disabled and Staryu still loses. Giga Drain is a 2HKO on staryu so it will always win against it.

Grass types don't stop it from spinning but grass types / proygon / chinchou have much, much more survivability than Staryu and thus they will always outlast Staryu in the long run and it has no chance of spinning on Ferroseed and Lileep

frillish will rarely run giga drain, I guarantee you. it has no use outside beating staryu and other water types. if you do run giga drain, you're missing out on a coverage move or wow/toxic. it has about a 7% usage on the ladder. therefore, i find it hard to really accept that has a good argument, but ever so, frillish cannot reliably switch in on staryu fearing the thunderbolt. therefore, it doesn't even reliably spinblock against good prediction.

staryu has a very good recovery move and it forces a lot of switches, unlike chinchou and ferroseed who do not have reliable recovery. all those mons can still get spinned on, therefore staryu is doing its job. drilbur loses to lileep, ferroseed, chinchou (scarf), porygon, grass types, yet it is still an effective spinner. it doesn't reliably beat frillish, either. staryu does not have to have effective survivablity to be an effective spinner. it works on its strong 19 speed and 16 sp. atk that can force switches. it is not a pivot, nor a tank, it is an offensive rapid spinner.

i haven't really talked about this anywhere else, but i'd like to get thoughts on moving bronzor down to possibly low b. while i know that bronzor has very good defensive stats coupled along with a decent support movepool, it has no reliable recovery. it loses to the best rapid spinner in the game, mold breaker drilbur, and doesn't even effectively check sd eviolite drilbur. it's also complete set-up bait from mons such as dd scraggy, np missy, subroost murkow, pawniard (psychic over eq), etc. i'd almost always rather use lileep, hippopotas, or drilbur to set up stealth rocks.

 

[Shouting]

Giga Drain is a solid option on Frillish because it beats Staryu, it's not like Shadow Ball is helping it get passed Foongus or Lileep anytime soon. Hitting water types with giga drain (especially chinchou that switch in) is way more helpful. Just because it isn't used doesn't mean it isn't viable. Shadow Ball really only helps with Croagunk, which I wouldn't stay in on unless I know for sure it doesn't carry knock off, and Dratini, but Frllish loses to it even with Shadow Ball.

Drilbur is not an effective spinner, it's just as frail if not frailer than Staryu but it has no recovery, slower, and is very easy to check. Drilbur also loses to Physically Defensive Misdreavus even with Mold Breaker (and Duskull I guess). Staryu is better at spinning than Drilbur because Drilbur takes too much damage from switching in to spin AND to set up stealth rock, Staryu does take a lot of damage too from switching in but it is faster with recovery, although it doesn't change the fact it is very frail.

Staryu's Thunderbolt is a 3HKO on Frillish, so even if you switch in on one Frillish still wins. Even with Stealth Rock in play your chance of actually 2HKOing is very, very small. Even if you do, there is always the Disable chance of 30% (which is more than double your chance of 2HKOing). Between Giga Drain and Recover, Frillish can be at full health easily throughout the match (definitely more so than Staryu)

 

[Pen Ink]

Giga Drain is a solid option on Frillish because it beats Staryu, it's not like Shadow Ball is helping it get passed Foongus or Lileep anytime soon. Hitting water types with giga drain (especially chinchou that switch in) is way more helpful. Just because it isn't used doesn't mean it isn't viable. Shadow Ball really only helps with Croagunk, which I wouldn't stay in on unless I know for sure it doesn't carry knock off, and Dratini, but Frllish loses to it even with Shadow Ball.

Drilbur is not an effective spinner, it's just as frail if not frailer than Staryu but it has no recovery, slower, and is very easy to check. Drilbur also loses to Physically Defensive Misdreavus even with Mold Breaker (and Duskull I guess). Staryu is better at spinning than Drilbur because Drilbur takes too much damage from switching in to spin AND to set up stealth rock, Staryu does take a lot of damage too from switching in but it is faster with recovery, although it doesn't change the fact it is very frail.

Staryu's Thunderbolt is a 3HKO on Frillish, so even if you switch in on one Frillish still wins. Even with Stealth Rock in play your chance of actually 2HKOing is very, very small. Even if you do, there is always the Disable chance of 30% (which is more than double your chance of 2HKOing). Between Giga Drain and Recover, Frillish can be at full health easily throughout the match (definitely more so than Staryu)

Shadow Ball is a 2hko on Misdreavous and other Frillish. The point I'm making by saying that only about 7% of Frillish will have Giga Drain is that most will not have Giga Drain.

...Drilbur has good bulk with Eviolite and has a 17 speed stat coupled along with a good attack stat. Drilbur resists Stealth Rocks and beats Bronzor and Tentacool, who both set hazards (albeit they're very bad hazard setters), while it doesn't get walled by levitate, so Misdreavous isn't the best switch-in. it also sets up its own rocks. Not everything has to be extremely bulky in this meta game to be effective; I don't really understand where you get this idea that Mold Breaker Drilbur is bad because it's actually very good? you're obviously doubting drilbur's bulk with an eviolite, which acutally is quite enough for what it needs to do.

since we're talking about viable things as well, modest staryu almost always 2hko's Frillish with thunderbolt. i'm not trying to argue that frillish will always beat staryu; i'm trying to argue that staryu is an effective rapid spinner, which it is. staryu forces switches and that's where it gets its niche as a rapid spinner. it forces things out and gets rapid spin opportunities that way.

 

[Electrolyte]

Frillish is literally used in 5% of teams and Giga Drain isn't even one of the top 9 most common moves that it uses. You can not say that "because Frillish CAN use Giga Drain to beat Staryu, it's a counter." Even the chances that you're going to bump into a Frillish in the first place is extremely small- too small for it to be a significant threat to Staryu (which it isn't without Giga Drain which is used on only 7% of Frillish) Giga Drain Frillish exists, but it's no where near common enough to be a significant threat to Staryu, who can predict the switch and and 2HKO with Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock anyway.

Misdreavus too can not reliably stop Staryu. The switch in can be predicted miles away, and connecting a Hydro Pump as Missy switches in basically spells the end of the little ghost, speed tie or not. Even if it doesn't switch in, Staryu should be fine, as you'd never switch Staryu into something that already threatens it in the first place (such as a bulky grass type.)

Anyway, the main point is, Staryu spins and it spins well. Ghost types really can't do much to stop Rapid Spin before they are easily picked off by a speedy 2HKO on the switch in. Because of this, and Staryu's speed/power/coverage, it deserves to be A-tier.

 

[Rowan]

My only problem with Croagunk is that while it certainly is bulky it's really not powerful enough to hit worth a damn. For instance, Corkscrew said that Croagunk can check Timburr, but that really isn't true; Drain Punch does jack shit and Croagunk just ends up being Bulk Up bait. After even just one Bulk Up, Timburr is doing more to Croagunk than Croagunk is doing to Timburr with the exact same move- so I wouldn't exactly call it a good check. Of course, Croagunk does have other niches, such as walling Mienfoo and non-ZHB Scraggy, (which are both fairly common) Water-types, and Grass-types, but again other than Scraggy and Tirtouga none of the things that it walls will take any serious damage from its attacks bar Knock Off. Its Fake Out and Vacuum Wave are also very weak and can rarely deal more than 33% to a neutral opponent in conjunction. It's bulky, but it's weak, so I too think it should go in B+.

Croagunk can check Timburr if it uses Bulk Up. The great thing about Croagunk is that you can just change it's moveset accordingly to what you want to beat. You can keep Bulk Up and have the utility of Vacuum Wave if you like and it is still viable. Or you can use Ice Punch to beat Grass-types after Sleep Clause, or even Rock Slide as a Larvesta or Murkrow lure. Fake Out and Vacuum Wave are strong enough against the frail sweepers like I mentioned in my previous post it deals 50% to LO Drilbur, 63% to LO Krow and it KOs Snover most of the time. Yes, I do agree that they are weak a lot of the time but they're good in enough in many situations.

 

[cxinlee]

Alright nominating Purrloin be moved to Mid C rank. Sure, it's outclassed by murkrow for swag play and cottonee for priority encore, but it does have a niche for having both. Purrloin can easily grab a free turn by switching into fake out, a psychic move, shell smash or any non damaging move, encore and get a free turn to swagger or sub. If played right, Purrloin doesn't get touched at all and could sweep through teams.

 

[Celestavian]

Pretty good idea starting this thread over. I especially like the way B and C were broken up since they were so cluttered. Here's my opinions on what needs to change:

S rank:

​

​

Drilbur​

Mienfoo​

Misdreavus​

Murkrow​

Snover​

​

A rank:

​

​

Chinchou​

Croagunk B​

Foongus​

Hippopotas​

Lileep​

Porygon​

Riolu​

Scraggy​

Staryu​

Timburr​

Tirtouga​

​

B rank:

High:​

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Abra A​

Clamperl​

Drifloon​

Dwebble​

Ferroseed​

Frillish​

Larvesta​

Magnemite A​

Omanyte​

​

Mid:​

​

Archen​

Bronzor​

Houndour​

Lickitung​

Natu C or at least B-​

Pawniard B+​

Ponyta​

Sandshrew​

Shroomish C​

Vullaby​

Wynaut​

​

Low:​

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Axew​

Cottonee B​

Diglett​

Dratini​

Gastly​

Goldeen​

Grimer​

Koffing​

Shellder​

Taillow​

Tentacool​

Zigzagoon C​

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C rank:

High:​

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Anorith​

Cranidos​

Doduo​

Exeggcute​

Golett​

Stunky​

Teddiursa​

Mid:​

​

Aipom C+​

Aron​

Buizel​

Darumaka​

Elekid​

Mantyke​

Meowth​

Munchlax​

​

​

Low:​

​

Cacnea​

Machop C​

Minccino​

Totodile​

Zorua​

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D-Rank:

​

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Chimchar​

Cubone​

Eevee​

Onix​

Pineco​

Purrloin​

Sandile​

Spearow​

Trapinch​

Wingull​

​

E rank:

​

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Everything else!​

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I'll start off my justifications with Abra and Croagunk, our featured 'mons. Abra is definitely A tier in my opinion, thanks to its ability to make an excellent glue for a team with the Focus Sash set. It catches so much stuff in this metagame that it would be easier to list what it doesn't reliably defeat with its Sash up: Murkrow, Misdreavus, Vullaby, multi-hit move users, full HP Timburr (lol), and bulky Normals. Pretty much everything else is either OHKOed or 2HKOed by Abra's swift and powerful attacks while only being able to break the Sash if they are lucky. It also runs a wicked Sub + 3 Attacks set with a recoil-less Life Orb, punishing switches and busting down walls such as Porygon and Lickitung with ease. Really I think the only thing holding it back from A is its noobish reputation, which I believe is misgiven. Croagunk, on the other hand, I think should fall down to B+ or even plain B. Croagunk relies on its key resistances to be effective, such as Fighting and Dark. However, what it does not resist are the highly common Ground-, Flying-, and Psychic-type attacks being thrown around the tier. In addition, I think Croagunk tries to do too much with one set. Trying to check physical threats, special threats, and hit hard on both sides all at once is incredibly difficult, and as a result, all of Croagunk's stats end up being average, which is why it relies on resistances. Even then, some stuff like Timburr can still get past those resistances. Sure, it could run Bulk Up to deal with that, but then it goes into 4MSS mode and loses out on special coverage. In this metagame, I'd much rather go with either Mienfoo or Timburr if I'm looking for a defensive Fighting-type, since their overall better bulk and higher Attack stats allow them to pose more of a threat than just kinda walling everything like Croagunk does.

As for the rest of my list, I'll start off with Magnemite. Magnemite stands out as one of the most powerful scarfers in the metagame, with pretty good defensive stats and a Steel typing to use with an Eviolite set. It seems a little low at B+ right now, and I wouldn't mind seeing it rise to A. Those 13 resistances and immunities along with a Special Attack stat of 20 with Modest gives it plenty of offensive and defensive power, checking some of the most dangerous Pokemon out there such as Murkrow, Snover, and even Drilbur if it has Magnet Rise. Another Steel-type I wanna see move up is Pawniard. I feel it deserves B+ because of its high-risk, high-reward playstyle. Out of any non-Shell Smash sweeper, I'd say SD Pawniard has the best chance of 6-0'ing a team by itself as long as their Fighting-type is weakened or not very bulky to start off with (and doesn't have priority!). Even if it does not 6-0 the enemy team, it is almost guaranteed a kill if it manages to set up a Swords Dance, and has the bulk to do so as well.

I think Natu is pretty overrated and would like to see it drop to at least B-. Natu has exactly two selling points over other support Pokemon: Magic Bounce and a 4x Fighting resistance. Magic Bounce is its main niche, and isused almost entirely for its ability to block hazards. Since only an idiot will set up hazards while Natu is in, it needs to predict and switch in. This is the problem, since many hazard setters have a way to punish Natu with a strong attack, such as Dwebble and Ferroseed. Drilbur also stands out with its Mold Breaker, entirely bypassing Magic Bounce and removing any kind of use Natu had. Natu cannot make any mistakes, since it has no way to remove the hazards it missed and running a spinner on the same team defeats Natu's purpose. Running Rapid Spin gives you as many chances as you need to remove hazards, and only fails against Ghost-types. Moreover, Staryu and Drilbur actually have decent attacking stats and high powered moves to go along with them, making them more than just a supporter. Also in the overrated department IMO would be Shroomish. I'm kinda surprised this thing is above Cottonee, since Cottonee performs so much better as a utility Pokemon. Shroomish may have Spore, but it's no Foongus. Once something is asleep, all it can do is sit and absorb resisted moves while hopefully setting up Leech Seed. Cottonee is even worse in the offensive department, but it doesn't need them when it has Prankster. Prankster Cotton Spore is so good against both sand teams and weatherless teams alike since it can paralyze everything in the metagame except Deerling. It's support movepool is huge, and behind a Substitute, Cottonee becomes an annoying menace. I'd definitely put Shroomish in C while bumping up Cottonee to B.

Last on my list is Zigzagoon, Aipom, and Machop. these are pretty minor so I don't have much to say about them. Zigzagoon is great on paper, but it doesn't really live up to the hype in most matches. Setting up with it is hard, especially because it's a Normal-type without an Eviolite. With no resistances and a Fighting-type weaknesses, it gets almost zero chances to set up. Even after it does, there's so much stuff that can shut it down that most teams have one by accident. Any Ghost-type, Pawniard, defensive Mienfoo at full HP, etc. all can live through an ExtremeSpeed or Seed Bomb and finish off Zigzagoon. It's simply too inconsistent to be anything above C. Machop and Aipom I think deserve a boost to C and C+ respectively. Machop's Scarf DynamicPunches aren't as good as they were in gen 4, but when you do see them, they are very annoying. As much as Machop is outclassed, that 50% chance to muscle through anything that isn't a Ghost-type really shouldn't be underestimated. Finally, I believe Aipom should go up to C+. It's got the same noobish reputation as Abra, though for Aipom it's a little more justified. LO Fake Out hits deceptively hard, and Return is also really powerful. Eviolite Aipom isn't a bad choice either, since it allows it to live through quite a few attacks, such as Mienfoo's Drain Punch. It's way bulkier and has more power than people think, but the niche it filled in gen 4 is no longer around which now makes it pretty medicore.

That was a pretty long one coming from me! I'd like to make clear that these are my opinions, and I'd be glad to elaborate further if someone would like.

 

[Shouting]

Shadow Ball is a 2hko on Misdreavous and other Frillish. The point I'm making by saying that only about 7% of Frillish will have Giga Drain is that most will not have Giga Drain.

...Drilbur has good bulk with Eviolite and has a 17 speed stat coupled along with a good attack stat. Drilbur resists Stealth Rocks and beats Bronzor and Tentacool, who both set hazards (albeit they're very bad hazard setters), while it doesn't get walled by levitate, so Misdreavous isn't the best switch-in. it also sets up its own rocks. Not everything has to be extremely bulky in this meta game to be effective; I don't really understand where you get this idea that Mold Breaker Drilbur is bad because it's actually very good? you're obviously doubting drilbur's bulk with an eviolite, which acutally is quite enough for what it needs to do.

since we're talking about viable things as well, modest staryu almost always 2hko's Frillish with thunderbolt. i'm not trying to argue that frillish will always beat staryu; i'm trying to argue that staryu is an effective rapid spinner, which it is. staryu forces switches and that's where it gets its niche as a rapid spinner. it forces things out and gets rapid spin opportunities that way.

Why would you stay in on Misdreavus to 2HKO it? You hit it once, then it just shadow balls you, leaving you extremely crippled. Meanwhile Frillish can use toxic on you, or 2HKO you with a shadow ball too if you don't hit it on the switch. Hitting Staryu, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Clamperl (especially when they expect a shadow ball to get a Rattled speed boost) Omanyte, and Shellder are way more important to me than hitting two specific targets that you coud possibly be crippled if you stay in on.

Drilbur is 2HKO'd by a lot of threats, like Magnemite's Flash Cannon, Drifloon, unboosted Scraggy, Pawniard, Chinchou, Flame Charge Numel etc.

It will take heavy damage from any STAB neutral attack, so it must play off it's resistances to Poison and Rock. It's electric immunity is kind of moot because Chinchou and Magnemite can both 2HKO it so it can't switch in on them safely. I'm not saying anything in LC has to be bulky, but when yu can't come in consistently to spin and or set up stealth rock, it isn't reliable. Staryu and Drilbur aren't as reliable as they could be because the amount of times they can switch in, take damage, and spin is very finite because they don't have many things they can safely switch in on. I also don't think anyone uses Modest Staryu, the difference between Modest Staryu and Giga Drain Frillish is that Giga Drain Frillish is more useful than what is currently standard (in my opinion). While 18 speed staryu doesn't work and will always lose to Missy, still lose to grass types and chinchou, so it really won't change much.

I don't think staryu forces switches that much either. In order to force out you need Staryu to switch in, and be able to KO it before it does the same to Staryu. Staryu fails against Misdreavus, Bulky Minefoo, Murkrow (Staryu could potentially win this one, but more often than not it will lose), Scraggy, Lileep, Snover, Chinchou, Magnemite, Ferroseed, Porygon, Timburr, Croagunk. These are all in the top 20, in fact, if you go down the list of the top 20, Staryu can only force out Drilbur, Hippo, Dweeble, Bronzor (Staryu loses to Calm Mind Bronzor though), and probably Abra due to the 50/50 chance of losing the Focus Sash.

I didn't count Gastly or Shellder because if Staryu switches in on a Shell Smash it is OHKO'd. Scarf Gastly beats Staryu but Staryu forces out all other Gastly unless they carry Thunderbolt.


Edit: Hawkstar, Natu is not really meant to be used as a fighting type check. It hard counters virtually every single Grass type in LC and also beats Bronzor, which makes it a fantastic supporter to Sand Teams. It also beats Parafusion Murkrow, which not much can attest to. I think it's good where it is.

 

[Rowan]

I've already made my thoughts on Croagunk, so I'm not going to reply to Hawkstar again until I manage to collect my thoughts on it, but I'd like to post saying I agree 100% with Hawkstar's opinion on Pawniard and Magnemite although I don't have much to add.

I'd like to reply to Natu though, which I believe should be where it is or even move to B+. Natu's niche isn't just bouncing back hazards with Magic Guard, which has been a lot less effective in BW2 thanks to Mold Breaker Drilbur. But Natu does use Magic Guard extremely well to wall all Grass-types bar Snover. If you have Natu on your team, the opponent's Foongus, Ferroseed, Shroomish or Cottonee is literally able to do nothing all game as long as you keep it around, which makes it very useful on Sand teams in particular. If you're running Toxic, it can even handle Lileep thanks to Roost removing its Ancientpower. Not only can you wall grass-types, Natu is a fantastic answer to Croagunk, Timburr and Riolu which are 3 very prominent threats. Natu's moveset is really cool; FeatherDance has a lot of general utility particularly for things like Murkrow switch-ins and U-turn allows it to form a very effective voltturn core with Mienfoo or Magnemite. Doing all of this is Natu's main selling point, it's ability to bounce back hazards is simply a bonus. If you're using Natu as your hazards counter, you're doing it wrong and should be using Drilbur or Staryu.

 

[Celestavian]

Natu is most definitely not a solid counter to all Grass-types. I'd say the list of Grass-types it actually walls looks like this: Shroomish, Cottonee. Everything else has something to hit it with to make it think twice about switching in. Foongus has a pretty strong Sludge Bomb with a 30% chance to poison, Ferroseed has Gyro Ball to deal damage with, Lileep has AncientPower and Giga Drain on Roosts, Snover of course has Blizzard, and Deerling has STAB Return, I think I covered them all. As a Fighting-type check, it gets smacked around hard by Timburr's Payback, making it far less than a "fantastic answer" to the Bulk Up set. Otherwise I'd say Riolu and Croagunk are pretty much walled. Even if Natu was a solid check to all those Grass- and Fighting-types, all the other stuff it gets smacked around by, such as Murkrow, Misdreavus, Scraggy, Pawniard, Snover, etc. make it a liability against 75% of teams, at least. Is that really worth kinda shutting down a few Grass-types until its teammates make mincemeat out of Natu?

 

[Rowan]

Natu can easily switch in to Ferroseed and Timburr then proceed to FeatherDance and Roost. The only way Timburr can beat Natu is with a crit. It really is a great counter to them. If does beat Lileep but only if you are running toxic. It can switch into Ancientpower and roost back the damage. Foongus, Ferroseed and Cottonnee are all stopped from doing the jobs that people put them on their team for. Foongus cannot really risk being put to sleep, Ferroseed is completely stopped from using spikes meaning that they have to rely on bad attacks to do practically nothing to your team. So yes, I would say it is a solid check to all those Grass- and Fighting-types. U-turn means it can keep momentum so that it's weakness to the Pokemon that you mentioned is somewhat less of an issue.

 

[Pen Ink]

Why would you stay in on Misdreavus to 2HKO it? You hit it once, then it just shadow balls you, leaving you extremely crippled. Meanwhile Frillish can use toxic on you, or 2HKO you with a shadow ball too if you don't hit it on the switch. Hitting Staryu, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Clamperl (especially when they expect a shadow ball to get a Rattled speed boost) Omanyte, and Shellder are way more important to me than hitting two specific targets that you coud possibly be crippled if you stay in on.

Drilbur is 2HKO'd by a lot of threats, like Magnemite's Flash Cannon, Drifloon, unboosted Scraggy, Pawniard, Chinchou, Flame Charge Numel etc.

It will take heavy damage from any STAB neutral attack, so it must play off it's resistances to Poison and Rock. It's electric immunity is kind of moot because Chinchou and Magnemite can both 2HKO it so it can't switch in on them safely. I'm not saying anything in LC has to be bulky, but when yu can't come in consistently to spin and or set up stealth rock, it isn't reliable. Staryu and Drilbur aren't as reliable as they could be because the amount of times they can switch in, take damage, and spin is very finite because they don't have many things they can safely switch in on. I also don't think anyone uses Modest Staryu, the difference between Modest Staryu and Giga Drain Frillish is that Giga Drain Frillish is more useful than what is currently standard (in my opinion). While 18 speed staryu doesn't work and will always lose to Missy, still lose to grass types and chinchou, so it really won't change much.

I don't think staryu forces switches that much either. In order to force out you need Staryu to switch in, and be able to KO it before it does the same to Staryu. Staryu fails against Misdreavus, Bulky Minefoo, Murkrow (Staryu could potentially win this one, but more often than not it will lose), Scraggy, Lileep, Snover, Chinchou, Magnemite, Ferroseed, Porygon, Timburr, Croagunk. These are all in the top 20, in fact, if you go down the list of the top 20, Staryu can only force out Drilbur, Hippo, Dweeble, Bronzor (Staryu loses to Calm Mind Bronzor though), and probably Abra due to the 50/50 chance of losing the Focus Sash.

I didn't count Gastly or Shellder because if Staryu switches in on a Shell Smash it is OHKO'd. Scarf Gastly beats Staryu but Staryu forces out all other Gastly unless they carry Thunderbolt.


Edit: Hawkstar, Natu is not really meant to be used as a fighting type check. It hard counters virtually every single Grass type in LC and also beats Bronzor, which makes it a fantastic supporter to Sand Teams. It also beats Parafusion Murkrow, which not much can attest to. I think it's good where it is.

I mean on the switch, Shadow Ball 2hko's both of them. Either way, I'm not trying to argue Giga Drain's viability on Frillish, that isn't the point of what I'm trying to get at.

The difference is that Drilbur OHKO's many of those threats, and can outspeed many of them to boot. I never claimed that Drilbur can reliably switch in on everything, but it has enough bulk that it can Rapid Spin and still take a hit. I don't get where you think that Staryu and Drilbur have to switch in the second hazards are up; that completely kills momentum and isn't really that effective. There's plenty of U-Turners and Volt Switchers that act as wonderful pivots to Staryu and Drilbur. I don't understand how you can claim that Pokemon with 19 Speed and 16 SAtk, or 18 Atk and 17 Spd don't effectively work? They are both huge offensive threats; just because another Pokemon beats them does not mean that they lose there effectiveness straight away. They are offensive rapid spinners, due to their high damage output and the fact that they still force out switches against weakened Pokemon.

That's not necessarily true. Saccing a mon does seem to be a big waste, but it can be a huge momentum gainer in the end. You can also easily use a bulky pivot such as Mienfoo. If Staryu has the advantage over say a Larvesta or a Hippopotas, than Staryu is free to come in and force switches. If not, use a pivot. More often than not, my Staryu or Drilbur is going to Rapid Spin. The only highly used Ghost type is Misdreavous, and I wouldn't really switch Misdreavous in on either of them, fearing the Earthquake / Hydro Pump. I don't particularly care that Grass types force me out, because I'm still Rapid Spinning.