Lower Tiers The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

[Trainer Au]

Can't we add Politoed and Ninetales to E-rank?

There isn't really a reason to add anything to E-Rank. Politoed and Ninetales should never be considered for an ubers team, adding them is pretty much pointless.

 

[Squidsauce]

Anyone feel like ferrothorn should be moved down to B? Feel like it's set up bait for a lot of things now (ho oh, sub-arceus, zekrom, etc), and even things it "counters" are sort of iffy, like palkia and ogre, since specs or scald can take care of it.

 

[superstar]

Ferrothorn is a dominant force in Ubers, and if you think differently you're kidding yourself. It can tank a huge number of attacks, and is the main reason why spike-stacking is so deadly. It makes a huge number of Pokemon (e.g. Latios) less viable and shapes the metagame. Almost certainly A-Rank.

 

[levenl00s]

I agree with superstar, Ferrothorn is high A-rank in my opinion. It outstalls a huge amount of pokes and is a pain in the ass for rain teams in general. Cannot count the amount of times this spiky iron ball has saved me, by just outstalling the opponents last mons. Every team needs a solid strategy to deal with Ferrothorn, lest you want to play with 3 layers of Spikes on your side. And Leech Seed.

It can usually stick around for a long time, with Leech Seed and Protect, while draining the life force out of the opponent. On top of that, it also has nice synergous typing to pair with mons as Giratina or bulky waters. Enjoy your A-rank threat.

 

[Darkmalice]

Nomination: Whimsicott for D rank

Whilst rare, it is a useable Pokemon. Can use a Subseed + annoyer set with Leech Seed + Sub, and a choice of Encore, Taunt, and U-turn. For more info, read its Ubers Smogon analysis.

Reason for D-rank: requires substantial support to be effective. It's only offense Leech Seed, and this can easily be stopped by a quick switch to Ferrothorn, Skymin, or Grassceus, as well as Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce users. Prankster Encore and Taunt to stop set-up are still useful without this support, especially considering how deadly some Mons are after they've set up, but not being able to stop arguably the most dangerous set-up sweeper, ExtremeKiller, is sad, and they need entry hazard support to reach their maximal efficacy. Whimsicott is comparable to Jumpluff, who doesn't have Prankster or Taunt and is sunlight-dependent, but it has Sleep Powder and is also D-rank. Whimsicott is also used more often than Jumpluff (though neither are used often).

 

[ElectivireRocks]

I agree with Ferrothorn being A rank.
Being able to lay entry hazards in Kyogre's face alone is already A-rank worthy, add the fact that Leech Seed in ubers is actually a reliable recovery move thanks to ubers' high HP stats, its ability to check the likes of Palkia and Genesect if locked into the wrong move and being a general annoyance and you have a dominant pokemon in your hands.

 

[Ehrmantraut]

Nominate Beartic for c-tier

solid base 110 attack paired with ice stab and swift swim allows it to outspeed and KO many of the premier dragons of the tier. also has an analysis. its usable in ubers.

 

[KratosBrazil]

I agree with Beartic in C. I would also like to suggest Weavile for D. It is very fast and has a really strong Pursuit. Ice Shard also lets it revenge kill Salamence and non E-Speed Rayquaza. Zekrom can also be taken out with some damage. It also gets 2 SE STAB's against the tiers main walls. It can also use SD.

It's problems are: REALLY frail, which means it can never set up on anything. It also can't never switch in into stuff it checks. ALL priority users and Scarfers that can take a Ice Shard beats it with incredible easy too. Overall, it is a bad Pokemon, that has a niche of being able to check some threats and Pursuit others, with good offensive STAB's. Been a bad pokemon with a minuscule Niche that requires lots of support is for me the definition of rank D

 

[Gogeta]

Beartic would be more appropriate in D tier. Swift Swim is neat, but you're still pretty damn slow regardless. If you run Adamant then you're outsped by base 90 scarfers and above (which is basically every scarfer), if you run jolly then you hit like a paper bag. Furthermore, Beartic's bulk is pretty average in Ubers, making it execptionally easy to revenge kill. Some calcs from the premiere revenge killers in the tier:

252+ Atk Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 163-193 (49.24 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beartic: 262-309 (79.15 - 93.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (you don't even need rain, which would be up any way

252+ SpA Kyogre Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beartic in rain: 340-402 (102.71 - 121.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beartic: 334-394 (100.9 - 119.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 470-554 (141.99 - 167.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 300-354 (90.63 - 106.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yea. I'm sure Beartic can be a great success with the right support, but no amount of support will change the fact that it's still horribly slow and fairly fragile, making it D-Rank imo.

Also supporting Weavile in D, for the same reasons as KratosBrazil said.

 

[Ehrmantraut]

i've used banded beartic before and it's harder to just switch in on it and kill it than you make it out to be. it's been a while so I don't remember the exact set, but this was close to it:

Beartic (M) @ Choice Band Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet

252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 174-205 (43.17 - 50.86%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 204-240 (63.35 - 74.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 209-247 (51.73 - 61.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 118-139 (41.69 - 49.11%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 328-386 (81.18 - 95.54%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252+ Atk Choice Band Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 222-262 (68.73 - 81.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


All of those things are potentially 2HKOed upon switching in. With rain up, Timid Mewtwo is barely outpaced by Beartic. not to say its flawless, stealth rock weakness, prone to being revenged by scarfers like you said, bad typing, 1 STAB, lackluster movepool, but i think c-tier is much better for it.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

I would like to bring up a mon that I think is a bit overlooked, Poliwrath. Poliwrath, like Beartic, is a good user of swift swim. However, unlike Beartic, he has greater bulk, speed, and an incredible secondary stab, allowing it to take out mons such as normal arceus. While it doesn't hit nearly as hard as Beartic, it's main STAB move is boosted by the rain to mitigate this. All this being said though, it is still is a little slow, and has a disappointing attack stat making most of its moves that aren't waterfall not worth using, and is worthless outside rain. All this being said, I nominate Poliwrath for D-rank

Edit: Forgot to mention it does get totally walled by both Giratina, which is a big reason I said D over C

 

[Shiruba]

but considering that there's a metric fuckload of dragons in the tier, ice STAB is much better than water - though you are right about it being rain boosted, though it hardly matters when the hit is often resisted. i wouldn't mention poliwrath imo as there are just so many better swift swimmers in the tier - i'd honestly use a kabutops before a poliwrath, as it's stronger, faster, has priority, swords dance, and also rapid spin - and it'd be hard to mistake kabutops as a top-tier threat in many situations. i personally wouldn't mention poliwrath in ubers as it's not that great even when you do get it to work.

 

[Brave Bird spam]

Yeah, I wouldn't mention poliwrath, either. Honestly, there are just so many better swift swimmers, like kingdra, kabutops, omastar, and heck even ludicolo. Base 85 attack is not going to be enough in ubers, either (kingdra has 85, too, and ludicolo has 90 but both have a 120 bp STAB instead of 80), so it will have problems with a ton of common opponents, like groudon and the giratinas and lati@s and palkia. Low attack+ weak STABs really makes it unviable imo, especially with so much direct competition. Fighting STAB is sorta useful but kabutops can use low kick for the same coverage while being much stronger, having rapid spin, and checking EK arceus better with its rock typing. Other notable targets are dialga and ferrothorn, but again, kabutops can low kick them, omastar doesnt even need coverage for them lol it can just shell smash then kill anyway (plus dialga eats an earth power to the face), and ludicolo gets focus blast, however shaky. this probably seems like a pointless rant, but I hope my main point is still clear enough.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Yeah, I wouldn't mention poliwrath, either. Honestly, there are just so many better swift swimmers, like kingdra, kabutops, omastar, and heck even ludicolo. Base 85 attack is not going to be enough in ubers, either (kingdra has 85, too, and ludicolo has 90 but both have a 120 bp STAB instead of 80), so it will have problems with a ton of common opponents, like groudon and the giratinas and lati@s and palkia. Low attack+ weak STABs really makes it unviable imo, especially with so much direct competition. Fighting STAB is sorta useful but kabutops can use low kick for the same coverage while being much stronger, having rapid spin, and checking EK arceus better with its rock typing. Other notable targets are dialga and ferrothorn, but again, kabutops can low kick them, omastar doesnt even need coverage for them lol it can just shell smash then kill anyway (plus dialga eats an earth power to the face), and ludicolo gets focus blast, however shaky. this probably seems like a pointless rant, but I hope my main point is still clear enough.

Yeah, I've used a couple swift swimmers, and the fighting type stab just seemed to get me out of a couple of binds. Oh well, it worked for me, but I'll try some others again

 

[RoadOfZenith]

Doing a write-up for Kingdra.

With subpar stats compared to other Ubers behemoths, one might question Kingdra's use in Ubers. The answer is simple: Swift Swim. Swift Swim boosts Kingdra's speed to an incredible 538 with 252 EVs and a neutral nature in rain, which is enough to outspeed the whole unboosted metagame. Its 95/95 offenses are somewhat remedied with pseudo double STAB to its Water moves in rain, allowing it to OHKO a significant portion of Ubers offensive pokemon with a little bit of residual damage. Its high speed in rain also lets it function as a revenge killer. With hazards support and appropriate team mates, Kingdra can easily devastate teams. Its good Water/Dragon typing limits it to one weakness, Dragon, which it can outspeed in rain and OHKO with its Dragon STAB. However, there are a few limiting factors that prevent Kingdra from being unstoppable. Bulky walls, Ferrothorn in particular, can withstand Kingdra's attacks and proceed to set up on it. Kingdra is also extremely reliant on Drizzle support; if you lose Kyogre in a weather war, Kingdra is pretty much useless. Rayquaza also poses a stop to Kingdra's rampage, as Air Lock negates Swift Swim and Rayquaza can easily outspeed and OHKO Kingdra. Modest offenses also prevent it from ploughing through opposing teams from the get-go. Overall, a monster in rain that will destroy unprepared teams, but do not expect it to be taking out bulky walls easily.

 

[MMII]

Okay, so since the list in the OP is really old and outdated, I worked with the guys in #ubers to come up with a more modern and detailed list. Please keep in mind that, outside of the ranking and subgroup, the list is just in Alphabetical order.n't in any order. (Just wherever I happened to copy and paste them to) I know there are some shake ups that may shock some of you so if you have any questions feel free to ask and I will respond. (and no I don't expect this to be perfect but a lot closer than what we had before) Also, I'll add missing mons like Sableye and Cresselia once I finish with some of my tabs. (Otherwise Firefox crashes when I open Pokecheck)

S Rank

• 
  (Arceus-Ghost)
• 
  (Kyogre)

A Rank

High

• 
  (Arceus-Normal)
  
• 
  (Dialga)
• 
  (Genesect)
• 
  (Giratina-O)
• 
  (Groudon)
• 
  (Latias)

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Fighting)
• 
  (Deoxys-A)
  
• 
  (Deoxys-S)
• 
  (Ferrothorn)
• 
  (Forretress)
• 
  (Ho-Oh)
• 
  (Latios)
• 
  (Mewtwo)
• 
  (Palkia)
  
• 
  (Rayquaza)
• 
  (Skarmory)

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Grass)
• 
  (Arceus-Ground)
• 
  (Arceus-Steel)
  
• 
  (Darkrai)
• 
  (Excadrill)
  
• 
  (Giratina)
• 
  (Tyranitar)

B Rank

High

• 
  (Arceus-Rock)
• 
  (Gliscor)
• 
  (Heatran)
• 
  (Jirachi)
• 
  (Kabutops)
• 
  (Kyurem-W)
  
• 
  (Landorus-T)
• 
  (Shaymin-S)
• 
  (Terrakion)
• 
  (Zekrom)

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Water)
• 
  (Blaziken)
• 
  (Hippowdon)
• 
  (Kingdra)
• 
  (Tentacruel)

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Dark)
• 
  (Arceus-Dragon)
  
• 
  (Chansey)
• 
  (Cloyster)
• 
  (Deoxys-D)
• 
  (Froslass)
  
• 
  (Garchomp)
• 
  (Omastar)
• 
  (Salamence)
  
• 
  (Scizor)
• 
  (Tornadus-T)

C Rank

High

• 
  (Arceus-Electric)
• 
  (Blissey)
  
• 
  (Lugia)
• 
  (Sableye)
  
• 
  (Shiftry)
• 
  (Tornadus)
• 
  (Thundurus)
• 
  (Victini)
• 
  (Wobbuffet)

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Flying)
• 
  (Arceus-Poison)
  
• 
  (Arceus-Psychic)
• 
  (Cresselia)
  
• 
  (Kyurem-B)
• 
  (Landorus)
• 
  (Ludicolo)
• 
  (Magnezone)
  
• 
  (Mamoswine)
  
• 
  (Reshiram)
• 
  (Xatu)

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Fire)
  
• 
  (Arceus-Ice)
• 
  (Bisharp)
• 
  (Gastrodon)
  
• 
  (Gorebyss)
• 
  (Gyarados)
• 
  (Heracross)
  
• 
  (Hydreigon)
• 
  (Jynx)
• 
  (Manaphy)
• 
  (Qwilfish)
• 
  (Smeargle)
• 
  (Thundurus-T)

D Rank

High

• 
  (Abomasnow)
• 
  (Bronzong)
  
• 
  (Espeon)

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Bug)
• 
  (Deoxys)
  
• 
  (Ditto)
• 
  (Metagross)
• 
  (Venusaur)
• 
  (Whimsicott)

Low

• 
  (Jumpluff)

E Rank

• 
  (Charizard)
• 
  (Shedinja)

 

[Brambane]

Latios is no where on the level of the Pokemon it is grouped with. We discussed it on IRC and you were adamant that "Latios = Palkia," but Latios has too many weaknesses and is dependent on Soul Dew for power (unlike Palkia, who has raw power regardless of what item it holds.) Latios does have niche use for CM, Roost, DS+Memento, etc, but in terms of general utility, versatility, team synergy, offensive movepool, and the fact that Latias is way better than Latios, Palkia is clearly the superior choice. As such, I say lower Latios a rank or raise Palkia a rank.

 

[MMII]

As far as overall roles Palkia and Latios are very similar. They are both wall breaking Dragons that can check Kyogre. Honestly, picking which one better serves your team for this role is very situational and based a fair bit on prefence. While Palkia may have arguably wider coverage (by very little) and the ability to dish out its strongest attacks without stat drops, Latios has some tricks of its own. With Psyshock it's list of counters/checks become different from Palkia allowing it to lure out or move past different threats in a way that may better benefit your team. (For example, nobody smart is bringing Ferrothorn in on Kia under Rain whereas HP Fire Latios under Rain can be used as a lure that softens him in up.) It also has a much larger list of utility moves allowing for more overall flexibility. Magic Coat, Calm Mind, Roost and Tailwind are just a portion of them. The higher speed and better special bulk allows allows it to check more threats than Palkia. Lastly its ability, Levitate, is one of the best abilities to have in a metagame like Ubers whereas Palkia's Pressure is only marginally useful for it. They are two Pokemon that serve the same role in different ways with arguably equal effectiveness.

 

[Magcargo]

I am VERY confused by some of the changes. Why did kyurem-w fall to B-rank and how did heatran go all the way up to A-Rank? Salamence, scizor and cloyster in B-Rank also confuse me.

EDIT: Also, why is reshiram mid C-Rank?

 

[Sweep]

Several notes on your list Melee:

1. Great to see Latios get some well-deserved respect! It is a great pokemon deserving of its "A" status. In no way does Latias outclass it either, since they perform entirely different functions (Latios is a nuke that can threaten almost every pokemon in the game; Latias is an offensive Kyogre check).

2. I think Bisharp and Arceus-Poison should be higher, perhaps Mid-C rank. Poisonceus can absorb Toxic Spikes and only possesses two weaknesses, making it one of the better defensive Arceus forms. Bisharp can wreck offensive teams after just one Swords Dance and walls like Giratina and Lugia (after SR) have a lot of difficulty with it due to Night Slash. Both Poisonceus and Bisharp hate Groudon though.

3. Dialga is one of the best pokemon in the game. It is so versatile and powerful that it can run several offensive sets effectively, suck as Scarf, Specs, Mixed Bulk Up, and even Trick Room Life Orb! Its good bulk and defensive typing make it a reliable SR setter if you want to go that route. I honestly believe it is "S" material, but perhaps not quite as good as Kyogre or CM Ghostceus.

4. Agreed that Kabutops is the best Swift Swimmer. After that I consider Omastar and Kingdra to be about even. Kingdra is much faster and can destroy Dragons, but Omastar fares much better vs. Arceus forms and is significantly more powerful in general. 418 speed in rain is by no means bad either.

5. Fireceus isn't that bad, Mr. lol and Puregenius have both made good teams centered around it and it hits really hard in sunlight. Kyogre is its biggest enemy but Grass Knot hits that hard. I feel it is at least as good as Flying Arceus and Psychic Arceus, the latter which is essentially outclassed by either Mewtwo or Latias depending on which role it chooses to take.

6. Your placement of Manaphy may be controversial, but I agree with it. Tail Glow is too easily revenged and Defensive CM has a really hard time setting up vs. offensive teams. It is also weather-dependant much like the Swift Swimmers are, only I don't feel the pay-off is as good.

 

[MMII]

Kyurem-W was hyped a lot in the beginning of BW2. Once people figured out how to adapt to it (like with SpDef Ogre which has become one of its best sets) it has fizzled out in popularity. It's the classic example of "ZOMG look at that POWAH" that ends up being dropped once extensive playing shows it's not up to the hype. To be more detailed, the SR weakness and lackluster speed along with reliance on Choice items or LO and stat dropping DM allows for passive damage to rack up fast while being incapable of tanking significant hits and failing to offensively threaten as much of the metagame as it would like.

Heatran had a huge jump mostly cause the metagame shifted in its favor. It already had a lot of traits that were overlooked but now that Ho-Oh and Genesect have become the metagame defining threats that they are and Spike setting important as well, having access to that nifty typing and utility like Taunt (along with both two great status moves and phazing) it's really an amazing Pokemon. On top of that, it fits well into any weather since it's used for defensive checking and status spreading more than its Fire STAB. (which is still nice on Scarf sets)

Salamence is in B cause it can now use Moxie with Outrage which makes it an effective late game cleaner. Scizor has a useful typing and Roost along with U-Turn and usable bulk that lets it check some significant threats and be annoying in general. Cloyster has a nice anti-lead set that can setup hazards and/or spin. EDIT: Reshiram has a terrible typing and its only niche to separate it from other Dragons is weather reliant. All it really does it dick with Sun which a lot of things can do that, many even better.

EDIT: (response to Sweep)

For the most part, I'm not as familiar with the lower ranking mons to nuance them as well so I'm definitely more willing to bump/drop them. (just a disclaimer)

2. You have a point with Poisonceus. I didn't initially value it as much as Flyingceus or Psyceus because it didn't have a great spamable STAB like the former nor countered a significant offensive threat like the later. Furthermore, T Spikes has dropped in popularity so that niche isn't as effective as it used to be. However, that typing does allow it to serve as a poor man's Steelceus with a Stall breaker set so if more people feel like it should I can move it up. Bisharp on the other hand, has had a rougher time with the newer metagame. It got a new toy with Low Kick but it's faced with the same problems it had in BW1 (faster WoW and reliance on prediction) as well as the rise of threats like support Fightceus. It's arguably gotten worse in the mid-generation shift so I'm not to sure about moving it to mid C.

3. Dialga is indeed a powerful Pokemon for all the reasons you mentioned but I don't think it is quite the metagame defining threat to be promoted from the honorable high A to the glamorous low S. I'm actually more willing to give Ho-Oh that promotion than Dialga, tbh.

4. Omastar may have more raw power stats wise but from a practicality approach, Kingdra actually hits harder. Omastar can't use a Choice Specs item due to its only STAB having so many heavy resists in the metagame, unlike Kingdra, and the LO sets actually hit less than Choice Specs Kingdra. (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark in rain: 333-393 (75 - 88.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark in rain: 329-387 (74.09 - 87.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) Kingdra also has a significant jump in speed that not only allows it to beat all the Scarf mons Omastar loses too but also Rayquaza who is typically the bane of Swift Swimmers. Like with Poisonceus I could move him up since the hazards and Rock typing has it's uses but I would like more opinions on it first.

5. Fireceus has more flaws than the Flyceus or Psyceus (weather reliance for one) and not as many benefits. (no powerful STAB or significant defensive niche) I'm pretty comfortable with where it is placed.

 

[Brambane]

some entries DON'T SAY I NEVER DID NOTHIN

Lugia has become a shadow of its Gen IV self. Whereas before it was the indisputable best wall in the game, its shortcomings have finally caught up to it. Lugia has always been set-up bait for entry hazard setters and the popularity of Ferrothorn has made that weakness all the more apparent. Lugia is also very vulnerable to Toxic, which other defensive titans RestTalk Giratina, Steel-type Arceus and Dialga can shrug off with ease. Combined with a weakness to Stealth Rock, middling offenses and Gen V's introductions of Zekrom and Kyurem-w, Lugia is just a glimmer of the shining star it was a generation ago. However, Lugia can still hold its title of "Great Wall," albeit with more difficulty. Lugia still has titanic defenses and an impressive base Speed stat; a rare combination in Pokemon. Multiscale adds a new dimension to Lugia, providing it with two excellent defensive abilities. It is still one of the better stops to offensive behemoths like Rayquaza and Arceus. The increased popularity of Spikes hasn't been totally bad for Lugia, as it still remains one of the best phazers with access to both Whirlwind and Dragon Tail while efficiently healing itself with Roost. And if you are feeling bold, Calm Mind Lugia can use its tremendous natural bulk to find ample opportunity for multiple boosts and power through the opposing team. All in all, while Lugia has fallen from its former grace, it still remains a notable member of the Ubers metagame.

Spikes are all the rage in Ubers, and Forretress stands out for being able to both set them up and remove them from the field. Spinning is tough in when you have spinblockers like Giratina-o and Ghost-type Arceus, but Forretress's strength lies in its ability to provide support even when spinning is impossible. Excellent typing and Sturdy allow Forretress to easily set up Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes on defensive Pokemon. With Sturdy and a Custap Berry, Forretress is almost guaranteed to at least get up Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes. Combined with Volt Switch and Toxic for further utility and Forretress stands out as fantastic support Pokemon. Forretress has few faults; the biggest is its total lack of offense. Outside of Toxic, it can only hope to deal damage with Gyro Ball or Explosion. Taunt users can often shut it down and its base 60 Special Defense can often seem too low. Despite these issues, Forretress is a solid Pokemon for almost any team.

Garchomp may have returned to OU, but it remains a threat in Ubers. Garchomp's flagship set is Choice Scarf, taking full advantage of its 102 Base Speed to outspeed common Choice Scarf users like Genesect, Palkia and Kyogre. It can pull off revenge kills and even late-game sweeps with STAB Outrage or Earthquake. Alternatively, Garchomp can boost its Attack with Swords Dance or Choice Band. Unfortunately, Garchomp has several flaws that keep it from the higher ranks. While its typing provides excellent STABs and a Stealth Rock resistance, it also leaves Garchomp with a crippling 4x Ice weakness and a neutrality to Water, meaning while Choice Scarf Palkia can check Kyogre, Garchomp cannot safely come in outside of a predicted Thunder. Garchomp's Attack is good but not great among Ubers and causes it to miss KOs on many Pokemon without a boost. Lastly, Garchomp's defenses are below average among the tier, making setting up much more difficult. If a player can keep those faults in mind, he or she may find Garchomp to be a solid member of a team.

 

[Haruno]

Latios is no where on the level of the Pokemon it is grouped with. We discussed it on IRC and you were adamant that "Latios = Palkia," but Latios has too many weaknesses and is dependent on Soul Dew for power (unlike Palkia, who has raw power regardless of what item it holds.) Latios does have niche use for CM, Roost, DS+Memento, etc, but in terms of general utility, versatility, team synergy, offensive movepool, and the fact that Latias is way better than Latios, Palkia is clearly the superior choice. As such, I say lower Latios a rank or raise Palkia a rank.

Since when the hell was relying on soul dew a bad thing? Even though latios has weaknesses to common types (mostly uturn) it still outspeeds any non scarfed mon and for the ones that are scarfed it will sadly fall prey to. Palkia however is in a similar boat in the sense that the only attack it actually takes better is gene's uturn. Palkia does have the niche of outspeeding most threats with a scarf admittedly but I think we all came to terms on how non scarfed sets were palkias best sets. In terms of power wise palkia with lustrous is about on par with latios with soul dew.

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Soul Dew Latias: 194-230 (53.29 - 63.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Soul Dew Latias: 192-228 (52.74 - 62.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Let's see the major pros and cons though

Latios:
Far superior special bulk
Better speed allowing it to outspeed terra, garchomp, palkia etc.
Has a monstrous cm set
Can bypass ho oh in sun which most mons fail to do
Better checks kyogre than palkia does
Reliable recovery
Has a massive weakness to uturn.

Palkia:
Can run a choice set
Can run a mixed set
Has a nice water stab that punishes switchins harder
Can 2hko ferro in rain as opposed to latios

Those are the major points I can think of atm. Overall I can't see what palkia is doing that latios can't do besides not being ty-tar/gene food.

 

[Brambane]

Better checks kyogre than palkia does

252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 158-186 (52.31 - 61.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 136-161 (42.36 - 50.15%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

Really? One of the primary reasons why Scarf Palkia is so popular is because it checks Kyogre lol. Also in what world is Latios bypassing Ho-Oh?

176+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 246-291 (81.45 - 96.35%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You also forgot to mention Latios's other two MAJOR weaknesses in Ubers: Ghost and Ice. Whereas Palkia takes neutral from both and has only one weakness (Dragon.)

You also left out the fact that Latios has Levitate, which is really Latios's major boon as it gives it an immunity to come in on and no damage from Spikes. If you are going to defend Latios, at least mention what is probably the best thing about it in the current metagame, which is dominated by Spikes users.

Palkia also has a much wider offensive movepool (Fire Blast, Aura Sphere and Earth Power come to mind) and more notable physical defense.

 

[Haruno]

252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 158-186 (52.31 - 61.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 136-161 (42.36 - 50.15%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

Really? One of the primary reasons why Scarf Palkia is so popular is because it checks Kyogre lol. Also in what world is Latios bypassing Ho-Oh?

176+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 246-291 (81.45 - 96.35%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You also forgot to mention Latios's other two MAJOR weaknesses in Ubers: Ghost and Ice. Whereas Palkia takes neutral from both and has only one weakness (Dragon.)

You also left out the fact that Latios has Levitate, which is really Latios's major boon as it gives it an immunity to come in on and no damage from Spikes. If you are going to defend Latios, at least mention what is probably the best thing about it in the current metagame, which is dominated by Spikes users.

Palkia also has a much wider offensive movepool (Fire Blast, Aura Sphere and Earth Power come to mind) and more notable physical defense.

No one runs 252+ SpA kyogre anyhow unless it's spec'd in which case both palkia and latios are 2hko'd. The standard is either resttalk mono attacker or scarfed.

Latios easily ko's ho oh after sr and unless it's running scarf (lol), it will get outsped and ko'd by psyshock. Palkia can't do shit in sun unless you're relying on 50% accuracy thunder.

Ghost pretty much equates to cm ghostceus or the gira forms. Ghostceus admittedly stops latios since latios is outsped and fails to 2hko assuming the ghostceus user cm/recovers on the dm. Palkia can hydro pump admittedly. Both gira forms hate latios since draco meteor is pretty much a guaranteed ohko after sr (87.5% on gira-a that's fully 252/252+ SpD). Gira-o can hit it hard with shadow sneak before dying so I guess that makes latios not as solid against gira-o.

Like I said, I'm tired and couldn't really think though levitate does help seperate it from palkia by avoiding hazard damage thus prolonging it's longevity. The only real things that palkia can bypass that latios have no answer for are ferro and gene and arguably ghostceus.