The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

[Haruno]

Funnily enough, Victini has the better typing since it allows it to check things like Mewtwo. (which isn't exactly common so it's a nice niche) V-Create is also a giant nuke under the Sun and hits for the generally softer physical side of the metagame. Having stuff like U-turn adds to it's utility (although SR weakness is sad) and Bolt Strike is great for bulky waters. (the popularity of Sp.Def Ogre completely ruins Reshiram) It's not much better but it gives more excuses to be used on your team.

I agree that good teambuilders will have many options at their disposal to prevent Deo-S from lazily laying hazards early game but it is still very effective at this role. (one of the reasons Magic Coat is getting so popular) I'm personally not a big fan of it myself but I didn't want to not give it enough credit.

Magic coat does not stop sr, no idea why people think otherwise. At best it makes it so both sides have sr on both fields which is arguably still a win for the deo-s user.

I think that Deoxys-S should go down, preferably to Top B-Rank. Deoxys-S is not very good in the metagame since most opposing leads can beat it. Genesect can U-turn out and switch to a priority user (which are pretty common. Giratina_o can 2HKO it with shadow sneak. Ghostceus can bounce back its hazards with magic coat and bring it down to its sash with judgement. Custap forretress can use the combination of gyro ball and rapid spin to prevent it from doing anything and the list goes on and on. And unlike the aforementioned pokemon, Deoxys-S cannot function any other major role effectively. The only thing that keeps Deoxys-S in Top B-Rank is the dual screens set, which can allow a frail sweeper such as rayquaza to set up with ease.

Also, I'm confused why victini is top C-Rank while reshiram is mid C-Rank (not saying that reshiram is good, but it appears to be better than victini thanks to its better STAB combo and typing).

Sorry if I'm confusing, but its 1 am where I live so I am somewhat tired (not like you guys care).

Gene is outsped and loses a massive chunk of its life from fire punch/hp fire if not outright ohko'd from deo-s. Not even what I'd call an opposing lead since it loses so utterly. Ghostceus with magic coat? We're really reaching for straws here if you really think it can afford magic coat/judgment/recover/filler not to mention magic coat doesn't stop sr. Custap forry will never stop deo-s from getting at least one layer despite what poppy tried to hype it up to be. The only reliable way to stop deo-s from setting up hazards is scarfed rai. Everything else cannot stop deo-s from getting one layer, switching out and then potentially setting up more hazards mid/late gam.

 

[Punchshroom]

I believe he was operating under the assumption that most Genes are Scarfed.

 

[Haruno]

I believe he was operating under the assumption that most Genes are Scarfed.

I was under that assumption as well, hence why I said gene is outsped and nearly/ohko'd.

 

[dice]

Can I just call you.. Melee Mewtwo the Master?

Jokes aside, Magic Coat is still a decent counter measure to Deo-S leads. If you lead Magic Coat Gira-O, your opponent will lose a Pokemon in return for Stealth Rock up on both sides of the field. This is a huge advantage in the Gira-O's favor as he will be ahead one whole Pokemon which gives you a lot of room to play around the heavy hitters your opponent's presumably offensive team will throw at you.

 

[Haruno]

Can I just call you.. Melee Mewtwo the Master?

Jokes aside, Magic Coat is still a decent counter measure to Deo-S leads. If you lead Magic Coat Gira-O, your opponent will lose a Pokemon in return for Stealth Rock up on both sides of the field. This is a huge advantage in the Gira-O's favor as he will be ahead one whole Pokemon which gives you a lot of room to play around the heavy hitters your opponent's presumably offensive team will throw at you.

Providing of course said deo-s user is stupid enough to leave his 13%+ health deo-s in on a gira-o after the initial shadow sneak.

 

[dice]

That's a 50/50 where the Giratina-O could Dragon Tail. Winning a 50/50 doesn't make a Pokemon any better.

 

[Haruno]

That's a 50/50 where the Giratina-O could Dragon Tail. Winning a 50/50 doesn't make a Pokemon any better.

I thought it was general consensus here that 50/50 scenarios aren't the best measure of usefulness/counter capabilities.

 

[MMII]

Either way, with Magic Coat Deoxys-S isn't setting up Spikes early game which is the whole point to it. The goal isn't to prevent Stealth Rock, it's to remove the advantages Deo-S was intended to bring.

 

[blitzlefan]

But to be honest, it depends on the team matchup. If you have Deoxys-S, and you see in Team Preview that they have Giratina-O or some other priority user that can function as a lead, you shouldn't begin with Deoxys-S. Send Deoxys-S as early as you can, and Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes will be well worth going 5-6.

I really like the new list, but I think that Terrakion should be A-. Terrakion has an excellent typing (Fighting-type STAB is pretty rare in Ubers) and its Speed stat is optimal as there aren't that many faster Choice Scarf users. Stone Edge also hits a hella lot of threats Ho-oh, Kyurem, Rayquaza, etc. and it serves as a decent Darkrai check with Sleep Talk and is one of the best Arceus-Normal checks (if not a counter). It's also able to punch holes in Arceus-Steel, Ferrothorn, etc. and serves as a really good late-game cleaner. I also think that Heatran would be better off in B+, but that just might be because I haven't really seen it be effectively used.

 

[MMII]

I really wanted to put Terrakion in A- because it's such an amazing revenge killer and late game cleaner but it was decided not too long ago that it was only B rank. (although, that was before we had the subdivisions and a lot of things were changed) Heatran is also one that I feel I may have overrated a bit. It's too good for B+ but not quite A- so I let my bias give it the better deal.

(As for Deo-S that comes down to who outplays who. As long as you block the first turns hazards, though, you've already gone a long way to minimize it's effectiveness as a cheap hazards layer.)

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

If the viability of Heatran was attributed by an increase of Ho-oh then that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Ho-oh often runs Earthquake. Everything else about it is true (namely that it makes a great switch into Genesect), but I believe B+ suits it.

However, more importantly, I think Arceus Normal is fine where it is at A+ (people either think its too high or too low...)

I don't think its an S-Rank worthy Pokemon because it has several common defensive checks. Forretress, Skarmory, both Giratinas, some Arceus formes, Groudon, and Lugia are amongst the more common Pokemon that can wall it that I can think of, the former of which are bad because they can both set up spikes in front of it, worse in a metagame where spikestacking is very common, and even worse when it loses to the spinblockers that naturally are paired with them. Its vulnerability to status makes it vulnerable to Will-O-Wisps from said Ghosts and if it holds a Lum Berry it usually comes off as too weak. Major 4MSS means that no matter what you do, you will probably be walled or something. This overall creates an environment where Arceus finds it very difficult to do anything against Stall, or even balanced teams because everyone carries a Steel type with spikes because it is lacking a bit in power.

However, I don't think Arceus should move down any lower either. Although it doesn't do very well against the aforementioned teams, it is difficult to find conventional offensive checks. You really only got Choice Scarf Terrakion (EDIT: also some swift swimmers if it isn't too healthy) and then you got other more rare stuff such as Scarf Dialga (Genesect does not cut it in this case because it doesn't do much to Arceus while a +2 Extremespeed hurts a lot). One of the cooler things about Arceus is that it is difficult to revenge kill because of Extremespeed out speeding opposing priority, "generic Choice Scarfed mon" usually won't revenge kill it unless it resists Espeed and is not a Genesect. Although its not too strong, it still OHKOs most of the offensive Pokemon in the tier after a boost, or could be busted out as a revenge killer. Its fantastic bulk also makes it fairly easy to pull off a Swords Dance boost at any given moment, and while the argument could be made that "any Pokemon can sweep with its checks removed," Arceus won't need to worry as much about something coming out of the blue as a revenge killer or something barely surviving and finishing it off, due to priority and bulk.

Arceus Normal has a lot of flaws and a lot of boons, but I feel like the arguments trying to move it up or down focus on its matchups against certain variants of teams. It is rather easy to check, but it is rather hard to stop as well, which is why I think it should stay where it is. Of course, failing against a playstyle won't move up stuff to S, but wrecking another shouldn't make it too far away.

 

[superstar]

I like a lot of the new list, but here's a couple of things that caught my eye:

Ferrothorn is so damn useful I think it should be High A-rank. Yeah, I know Ho-Oh exists, but Ubers is really spikes-centered and Ferro is a BIG reason why. It walls half the metagame like it's nothing, and checks non-Specs Ogre very well. I think it's not a stretch that it influences the meta more than any other Pokemon bar the weather starters and spinblockers

Deoxys-A should drop down to A- or lower in my opinion. He's a decent cleaner, but there are plenty of mons that can do a better job cleaning up late game. It lacks enough power to kill the stuff it needs to, adds literally nothing defensively since it has no immunities, gets royally fucked by Giratina-O and Genesect, and just isn't usually worth the slot over Rayquaza imo. It is not on the same level as Mewtwo, Rayquazza, or Palkia when it comes to all out attacking.

Ho-Oh is borderline S-tier; that thing is so good it's ridiculous. Easily the best mon in the game if you can keep SR off the field. Which you can't realistically, but still.

I also find Hippo to be a better physical tank than Landorus-T because Hippo can phaze and has recovery. However, Lando's value as a pivot coupled with his higher attacking prowess makes them equally B+ tier in my book

 

[MMII]

Well it was more than just Ho-Oh and Genesect, there was also Soul Dew Latitwins and V-create Ray that contributed. (Also, EQ is mostly only seen on Choice sets, which can be played around, since Lefties/LO have more utility options available.) Not saying I won't drop it but, eh, I'm still kinda hesitant.

I feel that described Ferrothorn more in BW than BW2. The mid generation shift moved the metagame from Rain Stall to something more offensive. He's still an excellent mon but he isn't the big metagame shake up that he used to be.

Deoxys-A is actually in Mid A for his Spikes lead set more than his anti-lead/cleaner ones. He's really scary to be up against on the first turn because not only is he threatening quick Spikes but he can also cripple or outright OHKO a team member. He may not have the speed Deo-S has to lay two layers in front of Scarfers but the threat of opening 5-6 or some Spikes on the floor makes up for it.

Yeah, I'm not too opposed to moving Ho-Oh to S tier, either. However, even with Regenerator he forces you to add a Spinner/Magic Bouncer to deal with his massive SR weakness. This kinda makes it hard to justify it hopping over that border since that is arguably a fair amount of support it requires.

Problem with Hippowdon is that his pitiful Earthquake leaves him as major Spikes fodder (even Defensive Landorus can still take a decent chunk). On top of that, he has far less Speed than Gliscor and Landorus which means that he is the only defensive Ground type (along with, lol, Gastrodon) to be incapable of checking Zekrom's most common set, Mixed Attacker. Even his Physical bulk isn't significant enough to dodge the 2HKO from CB Zek's Outrage. Again, that weak Earthquake falls a good deal short of OHKOing Zekrom. (needs SR, Spikes, and weather to OHKO min investment Zek) Being a Ground type that can't check Zekrom is a major disappointment. He's also missing out on that nifty Ground immunity for Spikes and EQs.

 

[Magcargo]

Keldeo should be somewhere on the list, preferably in Mid C-Rank. He's outclassed by Kyogre, Palkia and Water Arceus in most roles, but Fighting STAB is pretty cool for nailing Ferrothorn and Dialga. Taunt is another cool thing that Keldeo has to cripple Forretress and Skarmory. Its not amazing, but its still viable nonetheless.
And I think that E-Rank should be removed since newer players will think that the pokemon in E-Rank are viable simply because they are on the list. Furthermore, both Charizard and Shedninja aren't very common to begin with. Its simply a novelty rank IMO.

 

[superstar]

Keldeo should be somewhere on the list, preferably in Mid C-Rank. He's outclassed by Kyogre, Palkia and Water Arceus in most roles, but Fighting STAB is pretty cool for nailing Ferrothorn and Dialga. Taunt is another cool thing that Keldeo has to cripple Forretress and Skarmory. Its not amazing, but its still viable nonetheless.
And I think that E-Rank should be removed since people will think that the pokemon in E-Rank are viable simply because they are on the list. Furthermore, Charizard and Shedninja aren't very common to begin with. Its simply a novelty rank.

Imo Keldeo is D-Rank at best. 129 SpAtt is quite poor by Ubers standards, and it's really frail. It does have that lovely 108 speed going for it, but there aren't any important mons in the 100-107 range bar Garchomp, so it actually doesn't have that much of an advantage over Palkia, especially considering Palkia's Fire Blast has the same base power as Keldeo's Secret Sword and thus does more damage to Ferrothorn even under rain (unless Ferro is max SpDef, but even then the power difference isn't too noticeable). Palkia's Dragon STAB heavily dents Dialga on the switch as well. Taunt is pretty much the biggest thing Keldeo has going for it, but Palkia can use it's water STAB to simply OHKO the spikes users. It's not like Keldeo is adding anything defensively either, since it still gets murdered by any Dragon attack and its rock-resist isn't very useful. I suppose it does have merit for being able to take down Chansey and Blissey, but it's still not very good

 

[Haruno]

Keldeo should be somewhere on the list, preferably in Mid C-Rank. He's outclassed by Kyogre, Palkia and Water Arceus in most roles, but Fighting STAB is pretty cool for nailing Ferrothorn and Dialga. Taunt is another cool thing that Keldeo has to cripple Forretress and Skarmory. Its not amazing, but its still viable nonetheless.
And I think that E-Rank should be removed since newer players will think that the pokemon in E-Rank are viable simply because they are on the list. Furthermore, both Charizard and Shedninja aren't very common to begin with. Its simply a novelty rank IMO.

Walled to death by giratina/o and the lati twins. Fails to ohko dialga, can potentially get outstalled by ferro, hell the only thing it has going is that it's fast. As a pure special attacker palkia is better since the only thing palkia loses to that keldeo doesn't is garchomp. Can't even check ekiller since +2 espeed easily ohko's keldeo with no prior damage. Keldeo doesn't do or get past anything that palkia/terra can't. Shouldn't even worth listing imo. It's attack is subpar by uber standards and unlike ou, there are much more powerful mons that can spam surf/hydro pump for victory.

 

[Magcargo]

Walled to death by giratina/o and the lati twins. Fails to ohko dialga, can potentially get outstalled by ferro, hell the only thing it has going is that it's fast. As a pure special attacker palkia is better since the only thing palkia loses to that keldeo doesn't is garchomp. Can't even check ekiller since +2 espeed easily ohko's keldeo with no prior damage. Keldeo doesn't do or get past anything that palkia/terra can't. Shouldn't even worth listing imo. It's attack is subpar by uber standards and unlike ou, there are much more powerful mons that can spam surf/hydro pump for victory.

While I don't disagree with you, Keldeo can OHKO both Dialga and Ferrothorn with Focus Blast after Stealth Rock. Also, Base 129 isn't very bad in ubers, considering that Ghostceus (an S-Rank threat) has a lower base special attack. While Ferrothorn can deal an incredible amount of damage to Keldeo with Power Whip, it cannot outstall it thanks to taunt. I do agree with your other points however, which is why keldeo should be added to low D-Rank (and this is only because its gonna get the boot from OU soon).

Besides, Keldeo is more useful that Fucking Dugtrio.

 

[shrang]

Low to mid C rank fits Keldeo well, I think. It's blatantly mediocre in most situations, but if you properly abuse what it has, it works relatively well. With Fighting STAB and Taunt, it differentiates itself from its other Water-types. It can use a Calm Mind set and a Taunt attacker set, and Scarf/Specs are always there if you want them, although they aren't as good in Ubers.

 

[Jimmyftw]

I am confused as to why Arceus(ghost) is s-rank while Arceus(normal) is A-rank, these two should switch places. Here's why:
1. Due to espeed priority, Arceus(normal) need only invest in minimum speed whereas it's ghost counterpart will want to fully invest in that area.
2. Ekiller is one of the best late game killer and wallceus trip up players expecting offense.
3. Arceus(ghost) boosting by slow CM means it is wall by ho-oh, kyogre, ferrothorn, to name a few.
4. At +2 and silk scarf ekiller domishes frail offensive threats such as mewtwo, palkia, ho-oh, reshiram, kyogre, rayquaza, Latias, latios, not to mention prevent blaziken from a sweep with espeed.
5. Priority is useful.

 

[Terraquaza]

kyogre/ferro/ho-oh can wall ghostceus? and you know that normalceus is not the only mon capable of sweeping frail teams? ghostceus can do that too. you act like cm is ghostceus only set.

e: i meant sd ghostceus .-.

 

[superstar]

kyogre/ferro/ho-oh can wall ghostceus? and you know that normalceus is not the only mon capable of sweeping frail teams? ghostceus can do that too. you act like cm is ghostceus only set.

Well, SD Ghostceus IS outclassed by Extremekiller, to be fair (except that it can spinblock). Ho-oh can pretty much take all it's common moves bar Toxic. SpDef Kyogre too.

I am confused as to why Arceus(ghost) is s-rank while Arceus(normal) is A-rank, these two should switch places. Here's why:
1. Due to espeed priority, Arceus(normal) need only invest in minimum speed whereas it's ghost counterpart will want to fully invest in that area.
2. Ekiller is one of the best late game killer and wallceus trip up players expecting offense.
3. Arceus(ghost) boosting by slow CM means it is wall by ho-oh, kyogre, ferrothorn, to name a few.
4. At +2 and silk scarf ekiller domishes frail offensive threats such as mewtwo, palkia, ho-oh, reshiram, kyogre, rayquaza, Latias, latios, not to mention prevent blaziken from a sweep with espeed.
5. Priority is useful.

1. I personally run only enough speed to beat Adamant Ray (and by extension most Ekillers), many people run different spreads for Support/CM or what have you.

2. CM Arceus-Ghost is one of the best late-game killers and Support trips up players expecting CM. It's also much harder to wall

3. Arceus-Normal's pathetic power on it's moves means it is wall by Groudon, Giratina, Giratina-O, Arceus-Fight, Arceus-Ghost, Hippowdon, Wallceus, Forretress, Skarmory, Lugia, Kabutops, Scarf Dialga, Terrakion, and Ho-Oh, to name a few

Also Ferro takes 67% or so from a +1 Focus Blast and only SpDef Kyogre can reliably take on Arceus-Ghost. Even that set is hard pressed. It's really hard to find a good counter for it. Ho-oh needs SR gone or it's toast.

4. Yeah, but no-one is going to run a team of just those threats. Also Ekiller can't do anything to those threats without a boost, meaning it has to take massive damage as it sets up.

5. Priority is useful, but LO Ray has almost as powerful an Extremespeed and you don't have to give up your Arceus forme to use it.

Also Arceus-Ghost can spinblock, and that's huge so yeah. Can we stop talking about Ekiller? It's pretty good, but A+ is fine for it

 

[Jimmyftw]

Well, SD Ghostceus IS outclassed by Extremekiller, to be fair (except that it can spinblock). Ho-oh can pretty much take all it's common moves bar Toxic. SpDef Kyogre too.



1. I personally run only enough speed to beat Adamant Ray (and by extension most Ekillers), many people run different spreads for Support/CM or what have you.

2. CM Arceus-Ghost is one of the best late-game killers and Support trips up players expecting CM. It's also much harder to wall

3. Arceus-Normal's pathetic power on it's moves means it is wall by Groudon, Giratina, Giratina-O, Arceus-Fight, Arceus-Ghost, Hippowdon, Wallceus, Forretress, Skarmory, Lugia, Kabutops, Scarf Dialga, Terrakion, and Ho-Oh, to name a few

Also Ferro takes 67% or so from a +1 Focus Blast and only SpDef Kyogre can reliably take on Arceus-Ghost. Even that set is hard pressed. It's really hard to find a good counter for it. Ho-oh needs SR gone or it's toast.

4. Yeah, but no-one is going to run a team of just those threats. Also Ekiller can't do anything to those threats without a boost, meaning it has to take massive damage as it sets up.

5. Priority is useful, but LO Ray has almost as powerful an Extremespeed and you don't have to give up your Arceus forme to use it.

Also Arceus-Ghost can spinblock, and that's huge so yeah. Can we stop talking about Ekiller? It's pretty good, but A+ is fine for it

1. No matter what speed Arceus (ghost) runs it can still be revenge by scarfed mons, Arceus (normal) won't be.

2. Ho-oh can switch in on Darkrai and take a +2 DP even with SR up. That said, with regenerator replenishing Ho-oh health, CM Arceus can not comfortably sweep late game with Ho-oh at moderate health.

3. SD Ghost Arceus has a 75 BP stab move, that is pathetic. Unless you want SF which is even more so. And when does Ho-oh wall Ekiller? Unless you are banking on the 50% chance to burn I don't see how this is remotely feasible. Those are pretty obscure threats you mentioned, the majority of which are tailored to wall ekiller specifically such as skarmory. This is actually a testament to how Normal Arceus overcentralize the tier.

4. Of course not! But those mon that ekiller can beat after a SD are extremely common and threatening. Consider the following scenario: It is late game and you have a team of six with each member having 50%-60% health, +2 Ekiller wreaks that. Personally, I run a leftover/recover Ekiller with screen support and it is pretty easy to get to +4 and the percentage goes up to 60%-70% each member. Arceus takes hits better than most sweeper so I don't know what you mean by "massive damage".

5. Ray use espeed primary to pick of severely weaken foes, Ekiller uses it to sweep teams.

Honestly, I'm ok with Arceus normal being A+ as long as Arceus ghost is not S rank. Ghost Arceus walls normal Arceus itself, but saying that the former is more viable than the latter is an overstatement.

 

[blitzlefan]

Okay Arceus-Normal is excellent, and there is no denying that. However, it's often overestimated by newer players, and there are many viable ways of getting around it. Also, most well-prepared teams have a surefire way around it and backup checks as well, ranging from Terrakion, Forretress, Giratina-O, to Ferrothorn, Arceus-Ghost,Groudon, etc. What I'm trying to say is that the metagame is pretty well adapted to Arceus-Normal, and that it has flaws that hold it back, being its complete lack of defensive synergy, its opportunity cost, and relatively weak initial offensive presence. Furthermore, as soon as you reveal your Arceus-Normal, if you get stopped the first time, your opponent is certainly not going to give you the chance to set up Swords Dance a second time. Burns also hinder Arceus-Normal a lot more than they'll hinder Arceus-Ghost.

1. Arceus-Ghost usually has the bulk (Calm Mind + Recover + EV investment) to work around Choice Scarf users, especially late-game. It can also tank an attack and respond with Judgment, which is much more powerful than ExtremeSpeed. If Arceus-Normal can't KO with ExtremeSpeed, it's probably getting KO'd in return. Choice Scarf Terrakion, Kabutops under rain, and maybe a few other can outspeed, tank ExtremeSpeed, and hit back hard.

2. Ho-oh is Arceus-Ghost's one big counter, and saying that Arceus-Ghost can't get past its counter is pretty obvious. Arceus-Normal is obviously not sweeping if the opponent has Groudon, Giratina, etc. It should be noted that Arceus-Ghost at +1 has a chance to KO tank Ho-oh after Stealth Rock (+1 252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment (Ghost) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 180-213 (43.37 - 51.32%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

3. Arceus-Normal has a 80 BP STAB move, which is only slightly less pathetic. However, Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost (which in my opinion is much more effective) has a 100 BP STAB move. Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost is pretty bad, though can be surprising. I don't know why you said the listed Pokemon were obscure; basically all of them are common sights. ???

4. Your scenario works for basically any good sweeper. A lot of Pokemon at +2 can deal heavy damage to teams, especially if you give them screen support. Arceus in general takes hits better than most other sweepers, but Arceus-Ghost is superior to Arceus-Normal in this regard as it has a superior defensive typing. Arceus-Normal has no resistances, while Arceus-Ghost is immune to Fighting, resists Bug, etc. and is a very durable spinblocker in a hazards-centric metagame.

5. I don't really understand how this is relevant. It's been stated that Rayquaza is a wallbreaker and Arceus-Normal is a sweeper. Okay. However, I think what superstar was trying to say is that both get access to ExtremeSpeed, and Arceus-Normal isn't alone in having +2 priority. If a player wants to place Arceus-Normal for another Arceus forme that can serve as a better glue for the team, Rayquaza can provide priority as well. Speaking of glues, Arceus-Normal is a standalone sweeper that doesn't provide anything in terms of defensive synergy, and the opportunity cost is important (at the cost of say Arceus-Grass on a team weak to rain, Arceus-Steel on a team weak to Dragon-types, etc.).

Personally, I'd have Arceus-Ghost in S+ and Arceus-Normal in S-, but since we're not doing + / - for S-tier, than I'm fine where things currently are.

 

[superstar]

Everything Blitzlefan said. SD Arceus-Ghost is pathetic and unviable so it is irrelevant. I'd like to add that the most common Choice Scarf users in the tier are Genesect, Palkia, Kyogre, Terrakion, and Zekrom. A +1 Ghost-Arceus can set up further on Genesect and Palkia with no problem. It can set up on Kyogre as long as it's taken one or two SR switchins to reduce the power of Water Spout. Terrakion hard-checks Arceus-Normal anyway. Zekrom can survive a +2 Extremespeed, so it will get exactly one hit off on both Arceus-Normal and Arceus-Ghost.

lol Giratina and Groudon and Arceus-Ghost/Fight/Steel are obscure threats?

 

[Blue Jay]

1. No matter what speed Arceus (ghost) runs it can still be revenge by scarfed mons, Arceus (normal) won't be.

2. Ho-oh can switch in on Darkrai and take a +2 DP even with SR up. That said, with regenerator replenishing Ho-oh health, CM Arceus can not comfortably sweep late game with Ho-oh at moderate health.

3. SD Ghost Arceus has a 75 BP stab move, that is pathetic. Unless you want SF which is even more so. And when does Ho-oh wall Ekiller? Unless you are banking on the 50% chance to burn I don't see how this is remotely feasible. Those are pretty obscure threats you mentioned, the majority of which are tailored to wall ekiller specifically such as skarmory. This is actually a testament to how Normal Arceus overcentralize the tier.

4. Of course not! But those mon that ekiller can beat after a SD are extremely common and threatening. Consider the following scenario: It is late game and you have a team of six with each member having 50%-60% health, +2 Ekiller wreaks that. Personally, I run a leftover/recover Ekiller with screen support and it is pretty easy to get to +4 and the percentage goes up to 60%-70% each member. Arceus takes hits better than most sweeper so I don't know what you mean by "massive damage".

5. Ray use espeed primary to pick of severely weaken foes, Ekiller uses it to sweep teams.

Honestly, I'm ok with Arceus normal being A+ as long as Arceus ghost is not S rank. Ghost Arceus walls normal Arceus itself, but saying that the former is more viable than the latter is an overstatement.

1. What blitzlefan said.

2. The significance in that Arceus-Ghost has few reliable checks is that some teams struggle to fit a check for Arceus-Ghost into their team. While everything from hyper offense to stall and all weathers can comfortably fit an Ekiller check (because there are so many, offensive and defensive), many teams may not want to run Ho-Oh or SDef Ogre or something because they simply don't suit the team. Also, regenerator is meaningless when SR is on the field (which is hard enough to prevent and remove, especially when the opponent has a Ghostceus preventing any spins).

3. SD Ghostceus is also generally considered totally inferior to the CM set, so I'm not sure why you're treating it like a premier set (not to mention that base 75 STAB + Plate is pretty much exactly as good as 80 STAB + Silk Scarf). Also, all of what you proclaimed to be obscure threats are entirely viable Pokemon, with enough good utility beyond checking Ekiller to not be dead weight in any way if the opposing team doesn't have it. Skarmory has good typing for a physical wall, reliable recovery, phazing, spikes and the rare taunt. AND it can check Ekiller very well. Really, all of them are respectable Pokemon for Ubers in their own right. It's not like someone mentioned Sableye or something.

4. What blitzlefan said; if you construct an ideal scenario, Charizard will sweep. Not to mention that recover Arceus gets walled really hard by something and if you ever get burnt you'll wish you hadn't run leftovers or put so much effort into setting it up.

5. You stated that priority is useful (implicitly because you can pick off weakened threats). Rayquaza does indeed do this just as well as Arceus.

We could debate this back and forth a long way, but the entire debate misses the point. The crux of your argument is that Extremekiller is at least as good a sweeper as Arceus-Ghost. However, even the standard CM Arceus-Ghost set can provide valuable team support, since it can sponge quite a few hits with its good bulk and reliable recovery, and is a spinblocker without being spikes fodder (because even if it can't OHKO most spinners, they can't afford to allow it to set up). It also provides resistances. Arceus-Normal is very self-sufficient, but also does not support its team in any way really. The CM set's sweeping potential alone is not S-rank worthy, but being able to tank quite some hits for the team effortlessly and spinblock while remaining a potent, independent sweeper gets there (in addition to being able to run other good sets).

At any rate, a significant proportion of the last two pages has been spent debating Arceus-Normal's ranking and probably every half-decent argument that can be made for or against it was made, so it would be nice if we could be done with that (unless you read through all of the arguments made and can then still contribute something new and significant to the discussion).