np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

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X5Dragon said:
How did him saying that "offense can play around Keledo easily" turn to "offensive pokemon can set up on Keledo"? Offensive teams usually have a SR user (not relevant to this discussion since Keledo isn't taking much), a couple of priority users and a pokemon that is either scarfed or can boost it speeds. Ideally you would lure Keledo out mid game and hit it with a priority or damage it indirectly or the enemy using it to tank a resisted STAB move used by you, but you even don't need that to happen. The common theme with all Keledo sets is that it's not running any bulky investment, any legitimate sweeper using its (SE or Neutral) STAB on Keledo will probably either OHKO it or damage it badly to the point a single priority hit will finish it off.

As for finding out what set Keledo is running, you only need to know whether or not it is scarfed. You scout that the same way you scout any other offensive sweeper. If it's scarfed, you bring out or save your scarfer to deal with it or set up with your LGS on any other pokemon, if it's not, any of your outspeeding pokemon can revenge kill it. Alakazam, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Starmie all maim it.

I'm only here to read posts about defensive teams and whether or not they are refusing to change to the meta or that Keledo is putting a strain on their team building options and forcing them to run ridiculous niche sets and whether or not his list of checks are/aren't real.
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Defensive teams are fine against Keldeo, maybe the Specs or CM version can do some work in the hands of a good player but I think offensive teams really bear the burden. Anyways Rey said in his post that you're not playing against "a moron"; your example sounds like you're just outplaying the guy by keeping enough constant offensive pressure to play around Keldeo, if your only answer to Ebelt Keldeo is one of those 5 Pokemon then your team is going to take a lot of damage if a guy with Ebelt Keldeo ends up being the one who is playing better and you have to do the responding.
 
Meru said:
Seriously? If this suspect thread is going to devolve into the pro-ban side mindlessly posting calcs where Keldeo has the perfect item, Hidden Power, prediction, and hazards/weather conditions then we might as well go back to paragraphs.
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Those are two different people, though.

I will always be referring to standard specs keldeo as that's the one i find most problematic (with maybe a mention of ebelt here and there for whatever reason).

And hp ghost is the standard hp... Not ideal. And rain is completely not ideal for this calc. And rocks aren't all that much to ask.

The "it cant have everything" argument has merit, but I've found it notmally directed at many different people who all discuss different sets because they all find different ones problematic.
 
Yeah I am definitely participating in this, although I won't be able to play for a few more days as my internet ATM is pretty inconsistent. I am also exited to test out a few things such as Physically Defensive Amoonguss on the suspect ladder, as using a full on Specially Defensive version isn't nearly as necessary in this hypothetical metagame, I want to show Amoonguss still has a niche as well. :3

Overall though, from what I have scanned from this thread, the argument currently is that offensive teams, not defensive teams, have more of a problem with Keldeo. Honestly I agree, I haven't had too much of a problem wit it overall as a stall player, and because of this I am leaning Abstain / Do Not Ban currently. If anything the results from the suspect test may change my mind, if the metagame becomes much more desirable as a result a ban might be a good idea, I don't think anyone is arguing that Keldeo is already borderline (hence this thread), all it really needs in my mind is one solid push.
 
Here are my views on Keldeo.

VN noted this very well, Keldeo definitely does very well against offense, while it does slightly worse against defensive teams. Keldeo certainly is a very solid Pokemon on basically any team, and to be honest I haven't faced that many in my time in getting OU Current reqs (i'll post them later), and those that I did face the users sucked very badly, or at least most of them.

Keldeo can basically break through almost all of its counters by itself, with very minimal support. All you need is Stealth Rock and Expert Belt Keldeo can wreck havoc with proper prediction. You can easily compound kill Latias with Icy Wind + Hidden Power Bug after Stealth Rock, which you can do even easier with Latios. Celebi can be hit very hard with Hidden Power Bug (not incredibly hard but it does do a bit) and easily make it weakened very quickly with proper prediction. Jellicent and Amoonguss are probably the very best "counters" to Keldeo, even though Jellicent easily gets smash by the Calm Mind set, which Jellicent basically can't touch. Keldeo is extremely versatile and powerful, and it can abuse its above average speed to basically outrun and take out over half the metagame. Keldeo does have problems breaking through walls however, and it does take it quite some time to work a stall team. Keldeo by FAR does better against offense, especially Expert Belt. I know X5 constantly says how "HO handles Keldeo very well" which was his basic argument for practically every suspect. Hyper Offense does not do very well (or offense in general) against Keldeo. Considering how powerful Keldeo is and how it basically can simply overpower the majority of its counters, especially the light ones on offense, with relative ease. Saying Starmie, Alakazam, even Latias are sturdy counters is a complete overstatement. Starmie and Alakazam are barely checks, Alakazam really has to come in on a double switch because sacrificing its Sash is just incredibly stupid. Starmie, especially offensive ones definitely get torn up quickly, considering most lack Recovery you're not lasting long. I have already explained my situation with most offensive Latias, but for Gengar you basically have to make sure you don't switch in on Icy Wind or Hydro Pump, as otherwise you're basically screwed. But then again Gengar can't OHKO Keldeo unless it is running Thunder. Offense has really only 1 way to keep pressure on Keldeo, and that's continuously keep offensive pressure. But even then, Keldeo does get quite a few switches against offense. Creating a team with all of those checks listed is mad. Most offensive teams only get 2-3 "light" checks against Keldeo, and by that I mean they get broken up very easily.

Keldeo can kill its own "counters."
 
Are you serious? Then basically by that you are saying you have "no checks / counters to Keldeo and can only revenge kill it." That's not very supporting. You could literally use that argument for basically everything. Nothing on offense likes switching into Keldeo, this is why Keldeo does very well against offense, as VN and I both stated. Its also kind of hard to apply serious hazard / offensive pressure when you have something that basically 2HKOs or OHKOs every single Pokemon on your team. Keldeo does very well against typical offense.
 
I still don't get this thing to affirm "Keldeo can kill its counters by itself" using as an example more than one Keldeo's sets.
Starting from idealizing every different set as a different Pokèmon (ScarfKeldeo and EBelt Keldeo got different roles in a team, and different threats that are "counters" as Celebi, Tentacruel, Jellicent for the first and "revengekillers" as Latwins, Starmie, Alakazam, Tornadus etc for the second), every set, as I just wrote in parenthesis, is going to meet different ways to threaten it. So if I have ScarfKeldeo (standard HP Ice set), Jellicent should be a problem while if I have Specs HP Ghost/Dark (no EBelt HP Ghost got only a chance to 2hko the Jelly with SR on) it won't be a problem again. At the same time, Tornadus can shot my Ebelt Keldeo while if I have ScarfKeldeo I can pump in its face (or Surf+rain or Hp ice after SR)

So it's not properly true Keldeo can kill all its counters entirely by itself and that's the difference between a "broken" Pokèmon and just a "strong" Pokèmon harder to get rid of. Simply, when Keldeo can kill some of his threats, he automatically can't kill the others. Like a lot of other Pokèmons already banned for this wrong concept of "broken", like Landorus and like Genesect at its ban time (now it got new important moves like Shift Gear and Extremespeed so it now deserves the ban but that's another story).

Mentioning "combos" of Pokèmon in order to let one sweep is also wrong. Using this concept also Tornadus-I should be banned (lol!). Why? Think about Celebi Bpass + Dugtrio + Tornadus Uturner! All poor Torn's counters eliminated by Dug or baitkilled by Tornadus itself ç____ç but it needs rain in order to be really dangerous... oh wait? Doesn't that remember somethin just read? Keldeo!

Also "predictions" are a wrong argument to an important decision such as ban.
"Yeah you got Jellicent to wall my Keldeo but I'll send you my Tyrenitr >xU"
o rly?
I'd answer "I can switchback my Jellicent on Dugtrio or Landorus-T or Terrakion or what I got"
It's not a serious argument. Like the one above this.

The truth is that people doesnt want to turn on his brain in order to think about more solid ways to threat a Pokèmon (as example Tentacruel + Latios or Celebi + Gyarados for Keldeo) when the only real problem is just to scout its set... but that's a problem of all pokèmons, also weaker.

But this is a useless discussion cuz suspect ladder will be opened (or it's already opened iirc) and a lot of ladder people with not enough knowledge in order to CHANGE a metagame will get access to vote for his comforts, as usual. And reaching voting requirements is not question of skillz but question of time
 
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Prague Kick said:
Also "predictions" are a wrong argument to an important decision such as ban.
"Yeah you got Jellicent to wall my Keldeo but I'll send you my Tyrenitr >xU"
o rly?
I'd answer "I can switchback my Jellicent on Dugtrio or Landorus-T or Terrakion or what I got"
It's not a serious argument. Like the one above this.
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Were you around during the Lando-I suspect test? A Pokemon already got banned by that logic.
Not that I'm saying I side with such a reasoning or whatever.
 
Soul Fly said:
Were you around during the Lando-I suspect test? A Pokemon already got banned by that logic.
Not that I'm saying I side with such a reasoning or whatever.
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I just wrote indeed that Landorus-I got banned by that (wrong) logic.
But there was also the excuse "no safe switch-ins on him" due to SheerForce and SandForce sets. Anyway making a mistake doesnt imply the fact to do it again, but that's a bit off topic.
 
I really think Keldeo should go to Ubers. I find it very difficult to defeat it in rain as of its speed stat is high and so is its special attack.
With the addition of secret sword, special walls (Jirachi, Blissey, etc.) can no longer wall its attacks due to secret sword attacking the
defense stat rather than the special defense stat. Ok, so this a very good pokemon, so what? you might ask. It really is too strong in
my opinion. There aren't many checks that are common in the OU metagame with the exclusion of Latias who usually is either one or 2HKO
anyways by icy wind. Of course, there is Jellicent to wall the SubCM set, but honestly, nobody really uses that now. In the fast-paced OU
metagame, Keldeo usually just goes all-out attacker with specs or life orb.

I think it should go to Ubers, but this is just my opinion.
 
Sound said:
SD Keldeo? That isn't a thing. At all. Notwhatsoever. Also, you missed E-Belt (which is a fantastic set).

It's not just preparing for Rain. Keldeo restricts team building quite a bit. You either need to carry A. A fully invested wall from the pool of counters and hope to god the Keldeo you face isn't one of the ones that beats it. B. Carry a scarfer that is faster than 108 speed.

I have already played a few matches on the Keldeo ladder, and so far, I'm not liking Keldeo. Please keep in mind that I'm still low on the ladder, and have played little BW2 OU. I was using a quick Custap weatherless HO team, which used E-Belt Keldeo (H-Pump, SS, Icy Wind, HP Bug) as a lure. It preformed fabulously. It wasn't just a lure, even without specs and rain, it was still punching holes. To check Keldeo, I was using Scarf-gar (so I wouldn't need to use another spot to spin block). Yeah, I had to sac something to get it in, but hey, HO. Anyway, it did the job. I was slightly annoyed at points, though. Any team carrying a Starmie and a Keldeo was a pain, since I wouldn't be able to keep my hazards. Also, I felt it lacked power.

I really don't think I've seen Keldeo used against me enough to come to a decision. However, simply from me using it, I would lean towards banning it.
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It strangely is a thing somehow. And seriously, Keldeo doesn't restrict team building. You prepare for the other top of the tier things like Scizor/Jirachi and that sort of stuff. Why should preparing for Keldeo be any different?
 
Can we please stop saying keldeo is not a threat outside of rain. Keldtar cores can be as much devastating if not more.
Keldeo is not being suspected just because hydro pump spam in rain. Keldeo works amazingly in any team archetype bar sun, has several possibilities for movesets and most importantly, it can choose what counters it by a mere change of hidden power. I can use hp bug to get rid of psychic types and simply let a teammate deal with jelly. Youre never safe against keldeo, it can always beat most of its counters and use a teammate to beat the others. The best
part is that unlike other pokemon who are forced to run weird things to defeat its counters, keldeo can simply change its hp and still be a consistently powerful threat.
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
Can we please stop saying keldeo is not a threat outside of rain. Keldtar cores can be as much devastating if not more.
Keldeo is not being suspected just because hydro pump spam in rain. Keldeo works amazingly in any team archetype bar sun, has several possibilities for movesets and most importantly, it can choose what counters it by a mere change of hidden power. I can use hp bug to get rid of psychic types and simply let a teammate deal with jelly. Youre never safe against keldeo, it can always beat most of its counters and use a teammate to beat the others. The best
part is that unlike other pokemon who are forced to run weird things to defeat its counters, keldeo can simply change its hp and still be a consistently powerful threat.
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Yeah Keldeo is amazing also in sand or wless, but stop complaining about hidden powers.. Is it so impossible scouting the type? As I said before, Celebi + Gyarados is the optimal description to realize a single Keldeo can't kill all his counters: HP Bug? Gyarados can stop it. HP Electric? Celebi laughs in its face. HP Ice? Both. Water+Fighting is a combo walled by so many Pokèmon and Hidden Power can extend the coverage but not fully, that's the question, so stop crying at Hidden Power. Even more, Latwins, Tornadus, Alakazam and many more not so uncommon Pokèmon outspeed this Ebelt set
 
Prague Kick said:
Yeah Keldeo is amazing also in sand or wless, but stop complaining about hidden powers.. Is it so impossible scouting the type? As I said before, Celebi + Gyarados is the optimal description to realize a single Keldeo can't kill all his counters: HP Bug? Gyarados can stop it. HP Electric? Celebi laughs in its face. HP Ice? Both. Water+Fighting is a combo walled by so many Pokèmon and Hidden Power can extend the coverage but not fully, that's the question, so stop crying at Hidden Power. Even more, Latwins, Tornadus, Alakazam and many more not so uncommon Pokèmon outspeed this Ebelt set
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Actually, specs hp ghost 2hkos both iirc...

And hpump 1hkos gyara in rain and comes close to 2hkoing celebi
 
I like when people put words in another mouth. I never said it beats all of its counters with a single hp, no one is saying this...
"it can choose what counters it by a mere change of hidden power. I can use hp bug to get rid of psychic types and simply let a teammate deal with jelly. Youre never safe against keldeo, it can always beat most of its counters and use a teammate to beat the others."
 
MikeDawg said:
Actually, specs hp ghost 2hkos both iirc...

And hpump 1hkos gyara in rain and comes close to 2hkoing celebi
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252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 146-172 (41.35 - 48.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.78%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in rain: 219-258 (62.03 - 73.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't think so, use the calc before post.
Anyway that's not a valid reason to consider something broken. Awell, CBTyranitar's Stone Edge is close to 2hko 3/4 of the metagame. CBTerrakion with SR support does the same. Is this a banning argument? I don't think so.

SmashBrosBrawl said:
I like when people put words in another mouth. I never said it beats all of its counters with a single hp, no one is saying this...
"it can choose what counters it by a mere change of hidden power. I can use hp bug to get rid of psychic types and simply let a teammate deal with jelly. Youre never safe against keldeo, it can always beat most of its counters and use a teammate to beat the others."
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Mentioning teammates is not a valid argument dude. I can always use my teammates to get rid of Keldeo's partners don't you? :confused:
Also, not only Jellicent walls Ebelt w/hp bug set. Tentacruel, Gyarados, Toxicroak and many underrated mons. Also SDef Rotom-W is an optimal check to non-Specs set, and it can also paralyze the pony, js.
 
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I can guarante that keldeo counters will be removed with pursuit from ttar. Can you pursuit trap ttar? No you cant. If im using keldeo in rain i can use scizor to pursuit. Hp bug keldeo doesnt even need pursuit support, just pair it with thundurus t, np pass celebi or whatever and punish the opponent from using jelly as their keldeo counter by using it as setup fodder. This argument does NOT goes both ways, the keldeo user decides what counters it while the opponent has to make their choice of either stacking its team with a bunch of mons with similar weakness or risk losing to certain keldeo teams.
 
This is why I think Toxicroak is the best Keldeo counter: it can not only beat Keldeo but Tyranitar as well, which is what makes it so good in the current meta.
 
Prague Kick said:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 146-172 (41.35 - 48.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.78%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in rain: 219-258 (62.03 - 73.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't think so, use the calc before post.
Anyway that's not a valid reason to consider something broken. Awell, CBTyranitar's Stone Edge is close to 2hko 3/4 of the metagame. CBTerrakion with SR support does the same. Is this a banning argument? I don't think so.
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I was referring to offensive gyara which is 1hkod around 50% of the time.

and either way... keldeo outspeeds. How exactly is gyara switching in or dealing with keldeo or anything when it is 2hkod/1hkod (by a resisted move...)

And if you add a teensy bit of prior damage (equivalent to a layer of spikes) celebi IS 2hkod.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.78%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

If you are playing against a rain team, I'm sure celebi will have more to do than deal with keldeo (like taking politoed's hits, for example) so it's quite unlikely it'll be in perfect condition almost ever
 
Saying "you can use teammates to take out X" is a terrible argument because that's literally what the purpose of teammates is - to take out things that one Pokemon can't. In Keldeo's case, however, the ease of removing its common checks with a single Pokemon (Tyranitar) is a legitimate point, since unless the opponent can literally see the future, it can be very difficult to play around a KeldTar combination (Brought in Latias on Keldeo and double switched to avoid Tyranitar? Surprise! Keldeo stayed in and killed your Tyranitar check.).

One thing that bothers me about the time that Keldeo and Landorus-I are/were in OU, however, is the fact that a lot of people don't seem to be specializing their Keldeo/Lando checks to better deal with Tyranitar. Sure, Baton Pass Celebi happened, but where are the HP Fighting Latias? LO HP Fighting is a 2HKO on CBTar. Where are the offensive Celebi? Giga Drain off of LO Celebi is a guaranteed KO on CBTar after Stealth Rock. And what ever happened to Will-O-Wisp Jellicent? It has the perfect typing to use it, and if it means CBTar can't KO with Pursuit then why not use it? It's not like you have a better move to use against Keldeo anyway (lol Psychic Jelly). If adaptation is really supposed to be part of the game, where is it?
 
@Prague Kick

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying really. However your teammates argument does not hold any water IMO. If a a combination of Pokemon is deemed too powerful for the metagame, breaking it, something should be done about it. Saying teammates don't matter is a ridiculous cop out of the reality of the situation.
 
Guys, Prague Kick is right. That's why Dugtrio wasn't EVER taken into consideration when we discussed Genesect or Tornadus-T, right? And Ttar/Landorus/Keldeo wasn't a factor in Landorus's banning either. And Deo-D? You can't say he always gets up hazards, because what if I have a spinner and a Pokémon to beat your spin blocker. See? Team support has never been seen as a valid argument, guys.

/s

We can't look at Keldeo as if it doesn't have team support. That just isn't how it works. The way I see it, we can say "Keldeo has Politoed and Scizor support" but if you say "my counter has counters to Keldeo's counters to my counters!" because that just doesn't make sense. Hear me out. The team that has Keldeo on it is SUPPOSED to dedicate their team to support Keldeo's sweep. That's what any good team will do. They will fully support their win condition. If that includes Spikes support, rain support, Pursuit support, or what have you, then so be it. That isn't outside of the realm of possibility. However, I do NOT think it's fair to assume that the opposing team has excessive support of Keldeo's counter. When building a team, you don't think to yourself "Oh, my Keldeo counter gets beat by Tyranitar, better use Dugtrio even though i'm not using sun." That just doesn't happen (unless it's a defensive team, I guess). If you're building a team around a counter to Keldeo, then I really have to question your team building skills. But that's justthe thing, Keldeo DOES require you to overly support your team with counters to counters to counters. That's part of what makes it broken in my mind.
 
Toxicroak IS the perfect counter, the problem is he is restricted to rain teams, so telling someone to run toxicroak is the equivalent of telling that person to run a rain team and no one wants to run a specific team archetype just for the sake of defeating one threat.
 
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