Reuniclus is going second, that's the point I'm making.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
- Thread starter haunter
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Finally hit the reqs for the OU (current) ladder, time to start hitting the suspect test ladder now.
I guess I should give my thoughts. In the first 10-ish matches that I had, I used a Bulky Sand Offense team that consisted of Tyranitar, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Latios, and Alakazam just because I didn't feel like doing much work on the first few shitty battles. At about 130 provision and ~1800 ACRE, I switched to a rain stall team with Politoed, Chansey, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, and Breloom, then switched to Sand Stall after going about 90 provision. None of my teams really had trouble with Keldeo, I ran into an Expert Belt Keldeo (I believe), Scarf Keldeo, and Calm Mind Keldeo. Both Stall and Offensive teams offer checks and counters to Keldeo, Stall often having Latias, Jellicent, and Tentacruel, and Offensive checking Keldeo with things like Jolteon, Latios, etc.
No, I don't believe Keldeo restricts Teambuilding. While its existance screams for people to use Jellicent, Latias, Celebi, etc., each of these Pokemon already had usage before BW2 came and Keldeo was released, even Amoonguss. All of Keldeo's counters fill a big role in the metagame also, Jellicent being the best spinblocker, Latias, being a good offensive pivot, Celebi easily countering rain, etc. I also don't see why it's any different than people running Landorus-T to counter Terrakion or Poison Heal Gliscor for Breloom, every time you have a problem with a Pokemon, it's only natural to add on a counter / check to it on your team.
There's 2 things that people have problems with: Keldeo + Politoed or Keldeo + Tyranitar, Politoed giving Rain to boost Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pumps to huge levels and Tyranitar Pursuit trapping most of Keldeo's counters. I'm just going to quote ShootinStarmie on this one because he basically worded this one perfectly.
As ShootinStarmie said, Politoed is the culprit for boosting Keldeo's power, and running water resists is quite essential to be successful in a rain infested metagame anyways. Also, it isn't as easy for Tyranitar to pursuit trap Keldeo's counters as people say, because each (barring Latias) can hit Tyranitar hard, and it requires a lot of prediction for the Tyranitar user to Pursuit trap them, which is good for the metagame.
I'm going to vote no ban for Keldeo. I don't believe that it's broken and I believe that it's very manageable, unlike Landorus-I.
I guess I should give my thoughts. In the first 10-ish matches that I had, I used a Bulky Sand Offense team that consisted of Tyranitar, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Latios, and Alakazam just because I didn't feel like doing much work on the first few shitty battles. At about 130 provision and ~1800 ACRE, I switched to a rain stall team with Politoed, Chansey, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, and Breloom, then switched to Sand Stall after going about 90 provision. None of my teams really had trouble with Keldeo, I ran into an Expert Belt Keldeo (I believe), Scarf Keldeo, and Calm Mind Keldeo. Both Stall and Offensive teams offer checks and counters to Keldeo, Stall often having Latias, Jellicent, and Tentacruel, and Offensive checking Keldeo with things like Jolteon, Latios, etc.
No, I don't believe Keldeo restricts Teambuilding. While its existance screams for people to use Jellicent, Latias, Celebi, etc., each of these Pokemon already had usage before BW2 came and Keldeo was released, even Amoonguss. All of Keldeo's counters fill a big role in the metagame also, Jellicent being the best spinblocker, Latias, being a good offensive pivot, Celebi easily countering rain, etc. I also don't see why it's any different than people running Landorus-T to counter Terrakion or Poison Heal Gliscor for Breloom, every time you have a problem with a Pokemon, it's only natural to add on a counter / check to it on your team.
There's 2 things that people have problems with: Keldeo + Politoed or Keldeo + Tyranitar, Politoed giving Rain to boost Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pumps to huge levels and Tyranitar Pursuit trapping most of Keldeo's counters. I'm just going to quote ShootinStarmie on this one because he basically worded this one perfectly.
As ShootinStarmie said, Politoed is the culprit for boosting Keldeo's power, and running water resists is quite essential to be successful in a rain infested metagame anyways. Also, it isn't as easy for Tyranitar to pursuit trap Keldeo's counters as people say, because each (barring Latias) can hit Tyranitar hard, and it requires a lot of prediction for the Tyranitar user to Pursuit trap them, which is good for the metagame.
I'm going to vote no ban for Keldeo. I don't believe that it's broken and I believe that it's very manageable, unlike Landorus-I.
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First of all, what is this copout about Politoed being responsible for Keldeo's power? Given that we've received pretty conclusive notice that weather won't be suspected, if somebody thinks that Keldeo is broken...but only because of Politoed, they should still ban Keldeo because Toed ain't going anywhere. Not sure if that is actually what people are saying though.
Anyway, there are basically seven pokemon that can counter most of Keldeo's sets - Amoonguss, Celebi, Jellicent, Latias, Toxicroak, Slowking and Gastrodon (with the last two seeing very little OU usage). Other pokemon are far more situational and can't be counted on to counter Keldeo a large amount of the time - this includes things like Tentacruel, Rotom-W, Latios, etc. Now the prevailing response from posters like ShakeItUp and Stone Alchemist seems to be that these counters are good pokemon, therefore there isn't a teambuilding issue. This doesn't really grapple with what a "teambuilding issue" is. Nobody is arguing that teams get worse because of the ways that they have to counter Keldeo. People are arguing that teams are massively constrained because of the necessity of these pokemon. Amoonguss needs Rain or Sand Stall, SpDef Celebi is the same although can go slightly more offensive, Jellicent is Rain Stall and Sand Balance, Toxicroak is basically only rain or a dedicated rain counter, Slowking and Gastrodon barely get seen. Latias is the only pokemon here that is versatile enough to be used across pretty much any style. Keldeo's influence narrows the scope of viable strategies in this fashion. Do you see why that is a constraint on teambuilding? It's not a constraint in the sense of, "fuck, I have to figure out a way to fit Jellicent on my team or Keldeo kills me, what a pain", because Jellicent is good. Rather, it's an implicit constraint because every battler KNOWS they have to include 1-2 of these pokemon if they aren't going HO and therefore automatically begins supporting them with standard pokemon and in standard ways. There's no room for creativity or innovation and the metagame stagnates.
Lady Alex basically said this perfectly on the first page: "My thought on Keldeo is, as it has been for a couple months now, that it's unhealthy for the meta and needs to go. People who throw around comments like "Just learn to check it. If you're keldeo weak, you're just not building good teams, etc." are being silly. You're forced into selecting from a small pool of defensive checks (that Keldeo can still pressure very effectively) or it's going to really open you up. No one is saying that you can't play around it, because that simply isn't true. It's rare to encounter a team that is utterly demolished by it because everyone is forced to run one of its checks specifically for Keldeo. I don't expect much to be said that hasn't already been said in the original thread, so I doubt I'll be convinced that it isn't banworthy. Can't wait to get rid of it."
Anyway, there are basically seven pokemon that can counter most of Keldeo's sets - Amoonguss, Celebi, Jellicent, Latias, Toxicroak, Slowking and Gastrodon (with the last two seeing very little OU usage). Other pokemon are far more situational and can't be counted on to counter Keldeo a large amount of the time - this includes things like Tentacruel, Rotom-W, Latios, etc. Now the prevailing response from posters like ShakeItUp and Stone Alchemist seems to be that these counters are good pokemon, therefore there isn't a teambuilding issue. This doesn't really grapple with what a "teambuilding issue" is. Nobody is arguing that teams get worse because of the ways that they have to counter Keldeo. People are arguing that teams are massively constrained because of the necessity of these pokemon. Amoonguss needs Rain or Sand Stall, SpDef Celebi is the same although can go slightly more offensive, Jellicent is Rain Stall and Sand Balance, Toxicroak is basically only rain or a dedicated rain counter, Slowking and Gastrodon barely get seen. Latias is the only pokemon here that is versatile enough to be used across pretty much any style. Keldeo's influence narrows the scope of viable strategies in this fashion. Do you see why that is a constraint on teambuilding? It's not a constraint in the sense of, "fuck, I have to figure out a way to fit Jellicent on my team or Keldeo kills me, what a pain", because Jellicent is good. Rather, it's an implicit constraint because every battler KNOWS they have to include 1-2 of these pokemon if they aren't going HO and therefore automatically begins supporting them with standard pokemon and in standard ways. There's no room for creativity or innovation and the metagame stagnates.
Lady Alex basically said this perfectly on the first page: "My thought on Keldeo is, as it has been for a couple months now, that it's unhealthy for the meta and needs to go. People who throw around comments like "Just learn to check it. If you're keldeo weak, you're just not building good teams, etc." are being silly. You're forced into selecting from a small pool of defensive checks (that Keldeo can still pressure very effectively) or it's going to really open you up. No one is saying that you can't play around it, because that simply isn't true. It's rare to encounter a team that is utterly demolished by it because everyone is forced to run one of its checks specifically for Keldeo. I don't expect much to be said that hasn't already been said in the original thread, so I doubt I'll be convinced that it isn't banworthy. Can't wait to get rid of it."
This argument was thrown about a bit when Cresselia was being suspected in RU, and while Cress is long gone I think it applies here as well. For the record, I'm not sure how I feel about Keldeo right now (although if it was gone and we still had Lando-I I'd be a happy man).
Why is it that every Pokemon we've banned in BW2 had a reputation for ruining stall (or just ruining everything), but when it comes to a Pokemon that threatens offense more than stall the general consensus seems to be to let it go free? Sure, stall has to adapt a bit, but these are all Pokemon that stall teams would normally use - Jellicent is an excellent spinblocker, Celebi is the best defensive Breloom check around, Latias is a common win condition for stall teams that can still be useful earlygame, Gastrodon hard counters Rotom-W and is a good Thundurus check, and okay, Toxicroak isn't exactly common on stall and Amoonguss is pretty niche, you got me there. It wouldn't be uncommon for a stall team to want to run two or more of these Pokemon anyway. Due to the lack of offensive Pokemon that can check Keldeo, however, offense is often (not always) forced to run one of these checks, forfeiting offensive momentum and bringing the team down. Yet somehow we're thinking that Keldeo isn't an issue?
Why is it that every Pokemon we've banned in BW2 had a reputation for ruining stall (or just ruining everything), but when it comes to a Pokemon that threatens offense more than stall the general consensus seems to be to let it go free? Sure, stall has to adapt a bit, but these are all Pokemon that stall teams would normally use - Jellicent is an excellent spinblocker, Celebi is the best defensive Breloom check around, Latias is a common win condition for stall teams that can still be useful earlygame, Gastrodon hard counters Rotom-W and is a good Thundurus check, and okay, Toxicroak isn't exactly common on stall and Amoonguss is pretty niche, you got me there. It wouldn't be uncommon for a stall team to want to run two or more of these Pokemon anyway. Due to the lack of offensive Pokemon that can check Keldeo, however, offense is often (not always) forced to run one of these checks, forfeiting offensive momentum and bringing the team down. Yet somehow we're thinking that Keldeo isn't an issue?
What people are saying is that these 7-10 pokemon (which is a massive pool of viable checks and counters compared to somthing like lando) are already extremely useful in stopping the most powerful threat in the game (rain boosted water attacks). You need to have an answer for stuff like specs politoed and all the crap that spams scald. You can't bring in a physical hitting pokemon into scald... That is why all the pokemon you listed are special attacking or immune to water altogether. With this in mind, team building for offense is already cut in half because of the ease of just clicking scald and getting random burn on a physical pokemon... This is why sub rain tentacruel is so popular. You spam scald and you can't lose. If it hits anything it has a change to burn and with the rain boost it does decent damage to anything that doesn't resist it. I guarantee if scald wasn't created offensive would be way better. So the point is I want you to create a team where you can stop specs hydro pumps, SD gator , scald spam, DD gyarados in rain, rotom in rain (which can volt switch out of anything), a hydration vaporeon and all the other shit that gets nice defensive boost from rain without using any of the pokemon you mentioned and maybe a few others you missed. Now with THAT in mind look at the rest of your team and tell me you can't deal with keldeo. You can.
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I was never suggesting that Politoed was broken, more I was trying to say that you need to pack resistances to Water type attacks because of Politoed boosting Water type attacks, not because of Keldeo's attacks. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.
pro-ban side said:
Garchomp too, Dragonite too, Scizor too, Tyranitar too,...
Let me explain why :
What can you send out when you see Tyranitar? Ferrothorn? Skarmory? Gliscor? Lando-T? Yes, it's fine, but, if it is MixedTar? Fire Blast? Goodbye Ferro and Skarm, Ice Beam? Goodbye Gliscor and Lando.
What can you send out when you see Dragonite? Ferrothorn? Skarmory? Gliscor? Lando-T? Hippowdon? Yes, it's fine too, but, if it is mixed Dnite? Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Ice Beam can kill your "counters". Same with Garchomp.
Scizor can beat his "counters" too, SD Acrobatics set can kill Tenta, Jellicent, Volcarona on the switch, Spower can kill Heatran, Ferro, SD LO can kill Lando-T (in good conditions) and Gliscor.
Creativity and originality allow to most of Pokémon to beat their counters.
Yea, I know what you are going to say : In those Pokémon there is still 100% safe switch-in !
I agree with that, Scizor can't kill Skarmory without a greaaaaat conditions but, in the case of Keldeo it is the same thing. Tentacruel is a 100% safe switch in (because no one really run HP elec on SpecsKeldy and the SubCM isn't very common compared to the choiced).
I have one question : Do you play with only 1 counters to Dnite? To Garchomp? To take the Water(or Dragon)-Spam Attack?
I guess you will answer no, and you are true, but why? Because they are big threat? But Keldeo too ! Like Ojama said it before, you need to use 2 counters for Keldy. I've ran a bulky rain team with Ferro / Celebi / Tentacruel and that was very solid and Keldeo was never a problem to me.
In fact, most of Pokémon have in their movepool an option to beat their counters, it just depending of the set.
I'm not saying Keldeo shouldn't be ban, I'm just saying that the "Keldeo can beat his "counters" by itself" isn't a good point.
Youre misunderstanding the meaning of a counter. Garchomp and dnite does not have any counters, a counter is supposed to come in safely and threaten the opponent. SD chomp 1hko everything in the tier except skarm and ferro both of which are 2hkoed. Dragonite individual sets can be countered but not all of them as a whole. But at the end of day these sweepers have crippling flaws that hinder them greatly. You dont pack a "counter" to chomp, dnite, sd scizor, haxorus or w/e. There is no such a thing as that. What you do is prey on their middling speed, common weakness,
reliance on locking moves, low bulk, weakness to hazards or w/e else which are flaws keldeo doenst have. The point is not really whether keldeo can beat its counters its about the fact that these few counters are the only thing preventing it from doing its job.
reliance on locking moves, low bulk, weakness to hazards or w/e else which are flaws keldeo doenst have. The point is not really whether keldeo can beat its counters its about the fact that these few counters are the only thing preventing it from doing its job.
Actually you do pack "counters" to Chomp, Dnite, Haxorus etc., otherwise you would get steamrolled by them. That's why steel types are mandatory for some archetypes, especially stall. You are forced to use them to deal with dragons in the same way you are forced to pack waterresists to combat Keldeo and rain boosted water attacks in general. The only difference is that dragons have been around for so long now, everyone takes them into account when building a team, unlike the little pony. As long as you have a large enough variety of possibilities to deal with something, which in Keldeos case are more than just a few, I wouldn't consider it broken.
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Keldeo is easily worn down by Spikes, and even SR. But the difference between Keldeo and Dragons is that it actually has good counters that work about 90% of the time. All of its counters are used a good portion in most teams anyways too. Also, it is quite easy to take advantage of Keldeo's lock into moves, which is what makes the Expert Belt Keldeo work. However, it's quite easy to find out if Keldeo is Expert Belt or not with smart scouting (Protect is everywhere, smart switching etc.). And I think that you're contradicting yourself by saying that it doesn't matter if Keldeo can beat its counters or not because you explain how Dragons can beat their counters...
"its about the fact that these few counters are the only thing preventing it from doing its job". Well then, look at a Pokemon like say... Terrakion. Terrakion has only a few select counters, like Landorus-T or Gliscor, or Toxicroak. Terrakion can beat all of its counters if it runs a set with HP Ice and Earthqauke, but that's not the point. The point is that there's also very few things that can stop Terrakion also, so I don't really see how it's different than Keldeo. Yet we're not suspecting it. I know that you're gonna try to argue next things like "oh but rain doesn't boost Terrakion's STAB by 1.5 does it??????" or "pfft Terrakion's counters aren't EASILY pursuit trapped by Tyranitar!!!!". Well, first-off, Rain has always been boosting waters power by 1.5. Always. You can't really hope to be successful in a metagame that has very powerful Water attacks without a few water resists. In fact, you have to take in account Outrages, Close Combats, Hydro Pumps, Stealth Rocks, Fire Blasts, U-turns, Volt Switches, etc., etc. They're all things that you have to prepare for. For Tyranitar, it's not as easy to pursuit trap counters as people say. For reference, read my previous post or ShootinStarmie's post. Pursuit trapping with Tyranitar requires hard prediction, which should be encouraged.
And for jpw324's arguement about how Keldeo's counters can only be used in certain playstyle's (mostly only rain or sand)... Both Rain and Sand make up about 40% of teams (not to mention that Keldeo is nearly always played on Rain or Sand). How the hell does fitting a Keldeo counter on a team make it worse? If it counters a Pokemon that the team has a problem with, doesn't it make it better? If my team is wrecked by Volcarona, how does adding on Heatran make it worse? And why does a certain counter HAVE to be played on a certain style (I've used Amoonguss on weatherless before).
Also what I find funny is that my sun team literally has 0 problems with Keldeo. With Sun up, Keldeo is more prompted to use Secret Sword more than Surf, and then even my Forretress can take care of it. I can even set up on it with Venusaur.
Hm...please give me a replay where Keldeo was worn down by just SR. I know you said Spikes, but you hint that just SR will wear down Keldeo enough. Right. Chipping away 6% at a time...I guess if that works for you.
I also have a generic question. On an offensive team what counters / checks could you use instead of Latias or Celebi? I see that most of the counters are Amoonguss, Jellicent, stall, stall, stall pokemon. I just would like to see people clarify this point for me.
Well offensive teams generally don't "counter" anything they instead carry checks to powerhouses. Checks include Latios, Alakazam, Reuniclus, Starmie, offensive Celebi, Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados, Rotom-W etc.
Toxicroak is also a big one for offensive rain, @MoosyDoosy.
I'd liked to expand further on this: if you build a team without a Steel, it will fall flat on its face. Keldeo has checks and counters -- and with Hydro Pump spam galore you will fail without a bulky Grass-, Water-, or Dragon-type. The latter two also help with Fire- and Electric-type attacks, so I think they're most efficient. I think teams requiring Steel/Grass or Dragon is not ridiculous; Keldeo has similar checks and counters to other Hydro Pump spammers, and even without facing Keldeo, if I lack a Grass or Dragon and a Steel, my team will fail. That is a fact of the metagame.
The Broken-ness of rain lies in stacking Analytic starmie and Keldeo. So which is more broken?
I say this mainly because they Basically share the same counters and switchins to retardedly powerful Hydro Pumps. They overstretch defensive cores to such a ridiculous degree.
Unfortunately for Keldeo, Starmie isn't likely to ever seen even a glimpse of a suspect test, so Keldeo will probably get the boot.
I say this mainly because they Basically share the same counters and switchins to retardedly powerful Hydro Pumps. They overstretch defensive cores to such a ridiculous degree.
Unfortunately for Keldeo, Starmie isn't likely to ever seen even a glimpse of a suspect test, so Keldeo will probably get the boot.
Starmie is rocking 299 Special Attack with a Timid Nature. Keldeo is 357. That's a HUGE difference. Moreover, Starmie is walled cold by Ferrothorn, Blissey, and Rotom-W, all of whom are slaughtered by Secret Sword. Starmie has a slightly easier time against Jellicent with Thunder (but that also precludes rain support), but that's part of why Tyranitar is so popular with Keldeo. Sure, you could run Thunderbolt and Analytic but then you're forgoing Natural Cure, and even then you need a fair amount of hazard support. So Starmie has many of the same checks counters but then also a few extra counters that really don't give a shit what Starmie has to say and they're not trapped.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 159-187 (45.17 - 53.12%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 364-430 (55.82 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 494-585 (114.35 - 135.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.75 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Throw in a little hazard support, and you 2hko the meta.
You don't need Nat cure, you break shit
PS Tbolt sucks, who needs it when Rain hydros are broken.
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Barring Amoongus, how likely are you actually going to get the second hit of those 2HKOs now that Analytic isn't active?
And you aren't getting by Jellicent without Thunderbolt.
And you aren't getting by Jellicent without Thunderbolt.
The point wasn't about getting the second hit, it's that rain can make any "balanced" Pokemon ridiculously powerful and thus completely eradicate the whole counter this Pokemon ideology. Keldeo isn't really exclusive to this notion, it just so happens to be the best abuser of it. Starmie + Sharpedo (or any other offensive Water-type) can just overwhelm their counters with their rain-boosted attacks. I think the main point to consider is whether or not Keldeo's ability to abuse rain is "more broken" than the other threats. I don't really think so. Rain Analytic Starmie is also really hard to switch into, but it has a bunch of added advantages such as Speed, recovery, coverage, and rapid spin. Keldeo has generally better STABs, "reliable" power, and bulk. Just to give you guys some perspective on how powerful rain can make something:
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 143-170 (40.62 - 48.29%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 133-156 (37.78 - 44.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So Starmie can actually outdamage Keldeo lol.
Banning Keldeo isn't really going to solve anything. The next best rain abusers will just pick up the pace and take it from there.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 143-170 (40.62 - 48.29%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 133-156 (37.78 - 44.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So Starmie can actually outdamage Keldeo lol.
Banning Keldeo isn't really going to solve anything. The next best rain abusers will just pick up the pace and take it from there.
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This thread has devolved from "is Keldeo broken" to "look at all these rain threats that are just as bad as Keldeo".
This. Is. NOT. An. Argument. We have received confirmation that Drizzle is not going to be suspected. If Keldeo, Starmie and whatever other rain threat you throw out are all broken (Sharpedo? Really?) then BAN ALL OF THEM, don't say "well Keldeo is no more broken than the others and the others aren't being suspected so I guess we'll just keep Keldeo OU because really how much better is it going to get".
Note that I don't think that anything other than Keldeo is broken (barring auto-weather but that isn't getting a suspect). But if you think that Keldeo is broken and your justification for not banning it is "so are other things" then you are completely missing the point of what banning is supposed to do.
This. Is. NOT. An. Argument. We have received confirmation that Drizzle is not going to be suspected. If Keldeo, Starmie and whatever other rain threat you throw out are all broken (Sharpedo? Really?) then BAN ALL OF THEM, don't say "well Keldeo is no more broken than the others and the others aren't being suspected so I guess we'll just keep Keldeo OU because really how much better is it going to get".
Note that I don't think that anything other than Keldeo is broken (barring auto-weather but that isn't getting a suspect). But if you think that Keldeo is broken and your justification for not banning it is "so are other things" then you are completely missing the point of what banning is supposed to do.
The point being made is that Keldeo is not worse than anything else, so there is no reason TO ban it.
Keldeo will inevitably be compared to other rain threats BY VIRTUE OF BEING ONE. It possesses the hard-hitting characteristic. It can rip apart its counters with rain support. Heck, Ice Beam from Analytic Starmie can 2HKO Celebi, and Starmie beats switching in Latis, Jellicent, and Tentacruel. It gets access to reliable recovery AND Rapid Spin. It trades being walled by the blobs (not really -- Analytic Psyshock says hi) and Ferrothorn (hit hard by Analytic Hydro Pump).
Politoed has Modest and Specs, as well as max HP; while it is walled by more, it has tons of power that allows it to smash non-Water resists. Even Scarf is powerful enough. Politoed even brings its own rain, which makes it a prerequisite for rain teams.
@Icecream was making a PASSING EXAMPLE with Sharpedo. Don't attack him for it, seriously.
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I can't even argue that Keldeo doesn't match or exceed these many Pokemon in notoriety, because I'd be spouting crap. However, the point is that Keldeo is not broken alone. It might be broken in conjunction with these Pokemon -- and that is the point. If Keldeo isn't broken and autoweather won't get suspected (it won't), it stands to reason that Keldeo wouldn't deserve a ban.
@Ojama and co. explain the anti-ban argument well -- attack those points if you wish to defend your stance.
This doesn't actually do any work to answer the arguments of the pro-ban side. If you say "Keldeo isn't worse than X, Y and Z" but we still prove that Keldeo is broken, then they're all broken. If we don't prove that Keldeo is broken, all you've done is show that X, Y and Z aren't broken either. The argument doesn't get you anywhere, it simply expands the implications of the discussion.
Well, it wasn't a very good example, but point taken.
Huh? If Keldeo is "broken in conjunction with these Pokemon" then how is it not broken? I don't understand how a pokemon can be broken contingent on its teammates...if Keldeo is broken on a team with Politoed and Starmie, then it's broken. Just because it's less effective on other teams doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes "unbroken", unless you're advocating a complex ban that says that Keldeo can't play with its friends but can still be in OU.
I've already done that here.
@jpw234:
No, I am not advocating for a complex ban.
The point I wish to make is that Keldeo is simply a beneficiary of an overlying problem, which isn't for this thread. By putting Keldeo into the context of the metagame as a whole, I am saying that it is not a broken culprit. It alone is not forcing teams to run these rain checks, and provides numerous valuable traits.
This at its core the wrong way of thinking -- Politoed and Starmie were just examples. I don't think Keldeo + 2 Hydro Pump spammers makes KELDEO broken.
No, I am not advocating for a complex ban.
The point I wish to make is that Keldeo is simply a beneficiary of an overlying problem, which isn't for this thread. By putting Keldeo into the context of the metagame as a whole, I am saying that it is not a broken culprit. It alone is not forcing teams to run these rain checks, and provides numerous valuable traits.
Alright, before the thread gets further derailed, let me point out something: if you think that Keldeo is broken in the current metagame - i.e. a metagame where both Politoed and Tyranitar are available - you're supposed to vote to ban it, even if your personal opinion is that it would not be broken if the aforementioned weather starters were banned from the metagame. The point of this suspect test is to evaluate Keldeo in the current OU metagame, not into an ideal one.
lol at "every pkmn needs to be broken on its own for it to be banworthy!!" ok how about we unban excadrill? he certainly wasn't broken without ttar / hippo on his team. what about swift swimmers and torn-t? they're nothing special without politoed.
note i'm on the fence regarding keldeo, i just wanted to point out the flaw in this argument.
note i'm on the fence regarding keldeo, i just wanted to point out the flaw in this argument.
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