Reuniclus is going second, that's the point I'm making.
There's also an argument going around that Keldeo in unhealthy for this metagame. I have to disagree on this one, as Keldeo keeps top threats in check, namely Scizor, Dragonite, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and so on. I also don't like the arguement that Keldeo restricts team building. Yes you have to run at least two checks to Water type attacks, but that isn't Keldeo's fault, it's Politoed itself. Now I'm not going to go into detail about Politoed, but if you're complaining about Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump in the rain KOing everything, it's Politoed's fault, not Keldeo's. If you plan to be successful in this metagame, you need to run at least 2 water type resists, and this was way before Keldeo's time. Latias, Celebi, Rotom-W and Jellicent were all seeing great usage before Keldeo was considered broken, so no, it doesn't restrict your team building imo.
Then there's people arguing that Tyranitar + Keldeo is broken, which is also false. I don't like the fact that people are bringing team mates into this kind of disscussion, but since we are bringing it up I may as well talk about it. The fact that Tyranitar can trap Keldeo's checks doesn't make Keldeo broken, rather it leans more towards Pursuit being broken. Am I saying Pursuit (or Tyranitar) is broken? No. The fact that Tyranitar is on a team slot to get rid of Keldeo's counters already restricts the Keldeo player, and what makes it even worse is that Tyranitar can't even 100% trap Keldeo's checks. Latias, Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Amoonguss etc all have ways of getting around Tyranitar. Also, getting Tyranitar in on said check is pretty hard, as it requires double switching and prediction, which I think should be encouraged in this metagame, unlike Landorus-I which could just brainlessly use U-turn into Tyranitar.
First of all, what is this copout about Politoed being responsible for Keldeo's power? Given that we've received pretty conclusive notice that weather won't be suspected, if somebody thinks that Keldeo is broken...but only because of Politoed, they should still ban Keldeo because Toed ain't going anywhere. Not sure if that is actually what people are saying though.
First of all, what is this copout about Politoed being responsible for Keldeo's power? Given that we've received pretty conclusive notice that weather won't be suspected, if somebody thinks that Keldeo is broken...but only because of Politoed, they should still ban Keldeo because Toed ain't going anywhere. Not sure if that is actually what people are saying though.
pro-ban side said:Keldeo can beat his "counters" by itself
Youre misunderstanding the meaning of a counter. Garchomp and dnite does not have any counters, a counter is supposed to come in safely and threaten the opponent. SD chomp 1hko everything in the tier except skarm and ferro both of which are 2hkoed. Dragonite individual sets can be countered but not all of them as a whole. But at the end of day these sweepers have crippling flaws that hinder them greatly. You dont pack a "counter" to chomp, dnite, sd scizor, haxorus or w/e. There is no such a thing as that. What you do is prey on their middling speed, common weakness,
reliance on locking moves, low bulk, weakness to hazards or w/e else which are flaws keldeo doenst have. The point is not really whether keldeo can beat its counters its about the fact that these few counters are the only thing preventing it from doing its job.
Youre misunderstanding the meaning of a counter. Garchomp and dnite does not have any counters, a counter is supposed to come in safely and threaten the opponent. SD chomp 1hko everything in the tier except skarm and ferro both of which are 2hkoed. Dragonite individual sets can be countered but not all of them as a whole. But at the end of day these sweepers have crippling flaws that hinder them greatly. You dont pack a "counter" to chomp, dnite, sd scizor, haxorus or w/e. There is no such a thing as that. What you do is prey on their middling speed, common weakness,
reliance on locking moves, low bulk, weakness to hazards or w/e else which are flaws keldeo doenst have. The point is not really whether keldeo can beat its counters its about the fact that these few counters are the only thing preventing it from doing its job.
Hm...please give me a replay where Keldeo was worn down by just SR. I know you said Spikes, but you hint that just SR will wear down Keldeo enough. Right. Chipping away 6% at a time...I guess if that works for you.Keldeo is easily worn down by Spikes, and even SR.
Hm...please give me a replay where Keldeo was worn down by just SR. I know you said Spikes, but you hint that just SR will wear down Keldeo enough. Right. Chipping away 6% at a time...I guess if that works for you.
I also have a generic question. On an offensive team what counters / checks could you use instead of Latias or Celebi? I see that most of the counters are Amoonguss, Jellicent, stall, stall, stall pokemon. I just would like to see people clarify this point for me.
Toxicroak is also a big one for offensive rain, @MoosyDoosy.Well offensive teams generally don't "counter" anything they instead carry checks to powerhouses. Checks include Latios, Alakazam, Reuniclus, Starmie, offensive Celebi, Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados, Rotom-W etc.
I'd liked to expand further on this: if you build a team without a Steel, it will fall flat on its face. Keldeo has checks and counters -- and with Hydro Pump spam galore you will fail without a bulky Grass-, Water-, or Dragon-type. The latter two also help with Fire- and Electric-type attacks, so I think they're most efficient. I think teams requiring Steel/Grass or Dragon is not ridiculous; Keldeo has similar checks and counters to other Hydro Pump spammers, and even without facing Keldeo, if I lack a Grass or Dragon and a Steel, my team will fail. That is a fact of the metagame.Actually you do pack "counters" to Chomp, Dnite, Haxorus etc., otherwise you would get steamrolled by them. That's why steel types are mandatory for some archetypes, especially stall. You are forced to use them to deal with dragons in the same way you are forced to pack waterresists to combat Keldeo and rain boosted water attacks in general. The only difference is that dragons have been around for so long now, everyone takes them into account when building a team, unlike the little pony. As long as you have a large enough variety of possibilities to deal with something, which in Keldeos case are more than just a few, I wouldn't consider it broken.
Starmie is rocking 299 Special Attack with a Timid Nature. Keldeo is 357. That's a HUGE difference. Moreover, Starmie is walled cold by Ferrothorn, Blissey, and Rotom-W, all of whom are slaughtered by Secret Sword. Starmie has a slightly easier time against Jellicent with Thunder (but that also precludes rain support), but that's part of why Tyranitar is so popular with Keldeo. Sure, you could run Thunderbolt and Analytic but then you're forgoing Natural Cure, and even then you need a fair amount of hazard support. So Starmie has many of the same checks counters but then also a few extra counters that really don't give a shit what Starmie has to say and they're not trapped.
Banning Keldeo isn't really going to solve anything. The next best rain abusers will just pick up the pace and take it from there.
The point being made is that Keldeo is not worse than anything else, so there is no reason TO ban it.This thread has devolved from "is Keldeo broken" to "look at all these rain threats that are just as bad as Keldeo".
This. Is. NOT. An. Argument. We have received confirmation that Drizzle is not going to be suspected. If Keldeo, Starmie and whatever other rain threat you throw out are all broken (Sharpedo? Really?) then BAN ALL OF THEM, don't say "well Keldeo is no more broken than the others and the others aren't being suspected so I guess we'll just keep Keldeo OU because really how much better is it going to get".
Note that I don't think that anything other than Keldeo is broken (barring auto-weather but that isn't getting a suspect). But if you think that Keldeo is broken and your justification for not banning it is "so are other things" then you are completely missing the point of what banning is supposed to do.
The point being made is that Keldeo is not worse than anything else, so there is no reason TO ban it.
Keldeo will inevitably be compared to other rain threats BY VIRTUE OF BEING ONE. It possesses the hard-hitting characteristic. It can rip apart its counters with rain support. Heck, Ice Beam from Analytic Starmie can 2HKO Celebi, and Starmie beats switching in Latis, Jellicent, and Tentacruel. It gets access to reliable recovery AND Rapid Spin. It trades being walled by the blobs (not really -- Analytic Psyshock says hi) and Ferrothorn (hit hard by Analytic Hydro Pump).
Politoed has Modest and Specs, as well as max HP; while it is walled by more, it has tons of power that allows it to smash non-Water resists. Even Scarf is powerful enough. Politoed even brings its own rain, which makes it a prerequisite for rain teams.
@Icecream was making a PASSING EXAMPLE with Sharpedo. Don't attack him for it, seriously.
I can't even argue that Keldeo doesn't match or exceed these many Pokemon in notoriety, because I'd be spouting crap. However, the point is that Keldeo is not broken alone. It might be broken in conjunction with these Pokemon -- and that is the point. If Keldeo isn't broken and autoweather won't get suspected (it won't), it stands to reason that Keldeo wouldn't deserve a ban.
@Ojama and co. explain the anti-ban argument well -- attack those points if you wish to defend your stance.
This at its core the wrong way of thinking -- Politoed and Starmie were just examples. I don't think Keldeo + 2 Hydro Pump spammers makes KELDEO broken.Huh? If Keldeo is "broken in conjunction with these Pokemon" then how is it not broken? I don't understand how a pokemon can be broken contingent on its teammates...if Keldeo is broken on a team with Politoed and Starmie, then it's broken. Just because it's less effective on other teams doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes "unbroken", unless you're advocating a complex ban that says that Keldeo can't play with its friends but can still be in OU.