Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

Scraggy is C-rank because there are a ton of mons that cockblock it completely (Mandibuzz, Weezing, Sawk/Primeape to name a few). It needs quite a bit of support to be effective, but when it gets that support I agree it seriously wrecks shit. Low B rank is pretty ok for it if you want to push it up because it has a good matchup against a lot of the top metagame, but Top C is about right.
 
I used it on a team where the only support it got was Solrock using Will-O-Wisp and Body Slam Purugly (Purugly is actually pretty good xD) and he wrecked shit with that much. I would definitely like it in Low B at the least.
 
Again, the Natu calculations are just to show what it can survive. I'm not suggesting that it handily deals with them. Don't get the wrong ideas.

Also, I hate these predictability arguments. As in, "this Pokemon is bad because it's so predictable." While this is true for bunches of Pokemon in all tiers, it means absolutely nothing. Predictability also goes both ways. "Hey, that guy has a Natu. I'm going to use Regirock's Stone Edge to catch it on the switch!" as I bring in Sawk instead. I mean, yeah, Natu is a difficult Pokemon to use and requires a pretty high skill level, simply because you have to play completely to Natu's strength in Magic Bounce.

Regardless, as long as it gets a rank up I'm fine with that since Natu is so underrated.
 
Due to Shed Skin, Scarggy can set up on plenty of mons like Musharna, Misdreavus, Liepard, Alomomola, Metang, Miltank, Audino, Roselia, Probopass, Torkoal, Wartortle (without Haze), Weezing and Garbodor (both without Clear Smog). Also, I don't see how Mandibuzz is beating Scraggy one-on-one without resorting to a PP war: Foul Play does jack all, Toxic can be Shed Skinned away, and any miniscule damage incurred is offset by Drain Punch.

That said, while Scraggy has the bulk to take some hits from the stronger attackers, it is quite reliant on Drain Punch to beat them. For example, take Pinsir (without Close Combat) and Golem. Both can 2HKO Scraggy, with Golem doing more damage. However, Scraggy 2HKOes Golem with +1 Drain Punch and recovers enough to survive the 2nd EQ (which is how Gurdurr gets so high in the rankings). Scraggy cannot do anything about Pinsir 2HKOing it since it cannot do enough nor recover enough with Drain Punch to swing the matchup in its favor. Scraggy can even lose to standard SR Golurk in this fashion. This is not to mention Scraggy is still outsped by anything faster than base 95s after +1, so Scraggy can still be revenge killed if it took too much damage / didn't recover enough with Drain Punch. While Scraggy gets plenty of setup opportunities, it may not always pull off a sweep, much less a KO. Top-C seems good for it.

Another Pokemon I'd like to see the limelight is Dragonair, who is in Low-C. Its much more offensive counterpart, Fraxure has made it all the way into Low-B while Nair is an entire rank below it. While Fraxure's immediate power, Mold Breaker, and access to Dragon Claw, Taunt and Low Kick make it more threatening to offensive teams, Dragonair's abilities allow it to fare better against defensive teams. While Fraxure has access to Taunt, it still has to worry about things like Scald and Body Slam hax. Dragonair scoffs at all that, and stacks Dragon Dances with either a possible insta-wake from Rest, or beefing itself up with Marvel Scale and RestTalk to boost or use an unlockable Outrage. Its ability to make use of Rest also seperates it from Fraxure: DD Fraxure is pretty much a 'do or die' kind of sweeper, and if it has taken prior damage during setting up and Outrage ends early, chances are you're not getting a second opportunity to sweep again. Needless to say you can't make use of its great resists in Fire and Electric by switching in without blowing your chance to sweep.

Dragonair isn't like that, it can double up as both a sweeper and a check to dangerous Pokemon like Charizard and mixed Eelektross, then it can Rest off the damage and continue boosting. Because of this, Dragonair can be built both defensively and offensively, though defensive sets are preferred since they offer a greater niche over Fraxure. This is not to say offensive Dragonair is totally outclassed by Fraxure...just mostly. However, it has access to Extreemespeed, which can take out Scarfers such as Jynx after SR or weakened Primeape looking to revenge Nair, while Fraxure can't do anything about them. As a boosting Dragon that still has some advantages over Fraxure, I feel low-C is, well, too low for it, I feel it certainly does more than what Shelgon can anyway. I nominate Dragonair for either Mid- or High-C, lower than Fraxure but above Shelgon.
 
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IMO Dragonair isn't very amazing to be used ahead of either dragon, because in an offensive role Fraxure is way better, but in a defensive role, Shelgon is able to take physical hits and thus get more switchin opportunities since most of the time, physical hits that are super effective against it are non STAB and less likely to be spammed. Shelgon's physical bulk also lets it survive things like Swellow and Jolly Sawk, and can be used as a physical wall. Dragonair, on the other hand, has much poorer defenses, and while it can run Special Defensive, it cannot take as many hits as Shelgon and it does not help that many special attackers (Jynx, Water-types) have Ice-type coverage. I don't think Dragonair is superior to Shelgon, it just does a special defensive booster set slightly better, and I don't think it should move up.

Meanwhile, I totally agree with Scraggy moving up to Low-B. It sets up on pretty much every wall, sets up on Swagpard, sets up on Mush, can take hits from Jynx, and either set can potentially sweep a team. Getting forced out by Sawk, Swellow and the like prevents it from moving up further, but I don't think Low-B is a stretch at all
 
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Meanwhile, I totally agree with Scraggy moving up to Top-C. It sets up on pretty much every wall, sets up on Swagpard, sets up on Mush, can take hits from Jynx, and either set can potentially sweep a team. Getting forced out by Sawk, Swellow and the like prevents it from moving up further, but I don't think Top-C is a stretch at all
Scraggy is Top C currently... it was proposed for B Rank...

Updating this with a replay that shows what a monster Scraggy is. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-48476776
 
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There's no denying that Fraxure is the better offensive Dragon, but any sort of damage it takes diminishes its ability to setup and sweep since it has no way of healing that damage, meaning it cannot switch into most resisted attacks without the aid of Dual Screens or something. Shelgon may be more competent defensively, but Wish, an event move, is illegal with Dragon Dance, an egg move, which means it cannot perform a bulky boosting role like Dragonair can. Defensive Shelgon with Wish does not have many physical resistances to speak of (Dragonair put its resistances to better use against Zard and Eel) and would be compared to Alomomola, who boasts bigger Wishes and Regenerator. Even offensive Shelgon struggles to compete with Fraxure and Dragonair, the former being the premier offensive Dragon and the latter much more able to use its bulk via RestTalk and has abilities to reduce the unreliability factor.

Conclusion:
Fraxure - Best offensive Dragon, but falters defensively
Shelgon - Physically bulky, but faces competition in DD sweeping due to sluggish speed and certain move illegalities, as well as Alomomola in terms of Wish support
Dragonair - A mix between Fraxure's sweeping ability and Shelgon's survivability/tankiness, decent special defense

Altaria - Dem Draco Meteors, also boosting Dragon with reliable recovery
 
I would like to see Grumpig move from Top C --> Low B since he is very versatile and Psychic-Type Pokemon are so good in this metagame. He has a fantastic movepool and is a good balance between Musharna and Gardevoir that no other Pokemon in the tier really have, with Gardevoir's Speed and Special Bulk and Musharna's more average Attacking stats but higher HP. This balance is good enough to warrant B rank since it is fully out-classed by neither of them and has significant niches because of this. Furthermore, Grumpig has toys such as Whirlwind and Thick Fat to make himself being fully unique, and being able to fully-counter Jynx is just amazing. Definitely warrants B rank, but over irc DTC said he probably deserves no higher than Low B right now, which I think is fair...
 
I would like to move Rapidash from Low B to Mid C. Seriously this thing is just the most suicidal thing to use. It maybe sort of powerful, but it can't really spam it's Flare Blitz reliably since fire is the worse physical attacking type in NU. It is basically useless whenever the opposing team has Alomomola (not even guaranteed 3HKO with LO Wild Charge), Carracosta (set up bait), Regirock, Golem, Seismitoed (not even a chance to get pass it), Thick Fat Miltank. It's power isn't even that great despite its high base power moves, failing to 2HKO physically defensive pokemon such as Musharna and Weezing, which can recover off the damage and stall Rapidash to death thanks to the crazy recoil of its moves. While it has a cool speed tier in 105, it is not even that good against offensive teams. It takes approximately 70% of its health to take out Jynx with LO Flare Blitz, leaving it unable to do anything else the rest of the match after being forced out by anything faster or with priority. This basically means it NEEDS spin support. While it has Morning Sun to recover off its injuries, it often finds itself unable to do so thanks to its often lackster power. It cannot even guarentee the OHKO against Sawk with LO Flare Blitz. Using Rapidash also means that you have one pokemon less from your defensive synergy since it cannot even take resisted hits. It even has a chance to be 2HKOed by LO Sawsbuck's Horn Leech and Band Sawk's Ice Punch after rocks while Specs Eggy can easily OHKO it after rocks with Leaf Storm. And after taking those hits, it will be too weakened to do anything the rest of the match. Besides, while is 105 base speed is quite cool, it is sometimes quite lackster against offensive teams due to the faster nature of the metagame. When choosing a fast offensive pokemon, things like Tauros, Scolipede and Floatzel are usually better thanks to their better speed and other cool traits. When choosing an offensive fire type, Charizard is usually a better choice due to its ability to actually threaten thins unlike Rapidash which is stopped by every single physical wall in the tier. Charizard's greater offensive presence and better defensive typing also gives it chance to roost so that it is less reliant on spinning. It's lure sets with Solar Beam maybe good to remove its counters, but it is really situational and can only work as a surprise. According to the definition of C rank, Rapidash is certainly has a niche as a physically attacking fire type, but has many notable flaws namely fraility, stopped cold by walls and suicidal nature preventing it from being effective. It needs significant team support of spinning and walllbreaking to be effective at all. It should be be Mid C or at least in High C rank.

I would also like to support Audino moving to Top B rank which is nominated before. While Lickilicky has a bit more bulk then it(which does not matters in most cases), Regenerator more than makes up for that. I often use it on offensive teams and it is actually awesome. Usually, it switches in to wall some stuffs, Wish the next turn when the opponent switches and switch to an appropriate counter while healing both its partner and itself at once as well as retaining momentum. Lickilicky is unforunately relying on protect to heal off damage, which burns momentum more than anything. Audino is really are great pivot on offensive and balanced teams which deserves to be in Top B.
 
C Allstar said:
Long rant about how easily Rapidash gets walled

Over half of the counters you listed are dismantled by Sunny Day SolarBeam which is it's best set imo. I could agree with High-C though.
 
If you want the speed, don't mind the slight power drop, and hate recoil, I'd recommend a special Rapidash set. I posted one in the NBT thread a while back that works pretty well for me, almost like Zebstrika with STAB on Overheat.

Well, if we're comparing Rapidash and Zebstrika, I guess we'll have to compare the 100/80 attacking stats and the movepool power differences and make a special attacking Rapidash!

078.png

Rapidash @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA /252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat/Fire Blast
- Solarbeam
- HP Ice/Sunny Day
- Morning Sun​

Solarbeam can break right on through basically everything that walls physical Rapidash, so long as you've got sun up. (Watch out for Musharna.) The post linked by the quote has more damage calcs, but this thing is one of the best fast Pokemon you can get for sun teams.
 
Add Mightyena to the infamous E-Rankers. It has high enough usage to warrant attention, despite being completely outclassed by most other Dark-types that play similar roles. Cacturne throws Spikes and force out Choice-locked Water attacks, Liepard has Encore, Shiftry is immune to sleep, and Skuntank can absorb Toxic Spikes and Pursuit trap. The only reason to use Mightyena is Moxie, and Pinsir uses it better due to more coverage and a more reliable priority against defensive mons.
 
Add Mightyena to the infamous E-Rankers. It has high enough usage to warrant attention, despite being completely outclassed by most other Dark-types that play similar roles. Cacturne throws Spikes and force out Choice-locked Water attacks, Liepard has Encore, Shiftry is immune to sleep, and Skuntank can absorb Toxic Spikes and Pursuit trap. The only reason to use Mightyena is Moxie, and Pinsir uses it better due to more coverage and a more reliable priority against defensive mons.

It has Moxie and the elemental fangs. Comparing Mightyena to Pinsir doesn't make sense due to both having incredibly different movepools, furthermore Cacturne doesn't use Pursuit and neither does Shiftry, so it is essentially the offensive counterpart of Skuntank which IMO works well enough for D rank.

Anyone with me? No? Ok... :(
 
Moxie and Sucker Punch give Mightyena a pretty significant niche, and "completely outclassed by most other Dark-types that play similar roles" is a practically irrelevant argument. The only other Dark-types that really have any chance at sweeping are Shiftry and perhaps Cacturne, though Cacturne's awful Speed are quite problematic. The thing that Mightyena has over them is passive boosting with Moxie, meaning that it can pick off a weakened foe to get its first Moxie boost and continue from there. Pinsir is another strong competitor over Mightyena, as it is both stronger and faster and has much better coverage moves. The difference between Mightyena and Pinsir, however, is that Mightyena has a much stronger priority move, Sucker Punch, which has 120 Base Power after factoring in STAB, which Pinsir has Quick Attack. On the mention that Quick Attack is more reliable priority against defensive Pokemon: you shouldn't need to rely on priority against any defensive Pokemon anyways. The main faster defensive Pokemon out there are Misdreavus and Mandibuzz. The former needs 136 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Mightyena, which pretty much means that defensive Misdreavus will not be outspeeding it. Meanwhile, Mandibuzz needs 176 Speed to outrun Adamant Mightyena. Besides which, Mightyena doesn't beat Mandibuzz anyways, and it should always be used with wallbreakers that give it an easier time cleaning up later in the game. Indeed, Mightyena's niches over other Dark-type sweepers and Moxie Pokemon are few, but they certainly do exist. I don't really care whether or not this puts Mightyena in D-rank over E-rank, but you can't say that it is "completely outclassed."
 
The main faster defensive Pokemon out there are Misdreavus and Mandibuzz. The former needs 136 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Mightyena, which pretty much means that defensive Misdreavus will not be outspeeding it.
If Missy runs that much Speed, it is going to run Timid for a more efficiënt spread. 248 HP / 120+ Def / 140 Spe is less efficient than 248 HP / 204 Def / 56+ Spe , since the latter EV spread gives Missy slightly more points in both defence and speed.

Aiming to outspeed Jolly Mightyena isn't worth it on Misdreavus though, but Adamant Mightyena just happens to be on the list that fast defensive Misdreavus outspeeds. The biggest problem with fast defensive Missy is that it cannot counter Sawk, but instead it lures and beats Skunk, as well as Golbat, and it becomes certain that it is going to outspeed unboosted Base 60's and below, as well as neutrally natured Base 70's.
 
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I'd like Wynaut to move from Low-D to Low-C

Seems like a stretch to move it an entire rank up, but I think it's really deserving of some attention and somewhere in C-rank is the right place for it.

What Wynaut has over Gothorita is its ability to quickly remove opposing threats to clear the path for a teammate, whether or not it is an offensive or defensive opponent. Wynaut can very quickly defeat offensive opponents, choice-locked or not (though preferably choice locked) that can't 2HKO it (and those that can't OHKO it if it switches in to revenge). Wynaut may be a one-time use Pokemon, but it's used very effectively when used right. Wynaut itself can remove a troublesome Pokemon for the team very quickly, as long as it isn't OHKOed by said Pokemon. This is sometimes even more reliable than Gothorita, because Goth needs to set up a few Calm Minds before doing significant damage and occasionally has to Rest, meaning it can't afford to be 2HKOed. Meanwhile, Wynaut can easily deal with walls with Encore and Tickle. Even though Encore is slow as balls, Wynaut can still be EVed to beat min base 50s without losing too much bulk, and that's where a lot of walls sit (Metang, Regirock, Audino, Musharna, just to name a few). This means that Wynaut completely cockblocks Musharna that doesn't Baton Pass as it switches in, and cockblocks everything else (it doesn't mind Toxic anyway since it's pretty much trap, suicide and let your teammate wreck). Even if it can't outspeed, it doesn't matter because faster walls (apart from Missy and Buzz) can't touch it. The thing is that Wynaut's Encore locking an opponent into a useless move (such as Stealth Rock or Wish) allows a teammate to simply walk in and use it as setup. Tickle is also another great weapon to remove a problematic defensive wall. Is your opponent's Musharna completely stopping your Sawk from sweeping? Is your opponent's Munchlax cockblocking your Jynx? Simply get in there, Encore it into a useless move, and Tickle it until you die of Toxic / they are at -6. Then, pair Wynaut up with a Skuntank, switch it in, and Pursuit the living crap out of it. Gothorita is probably better because it can trap more times a match, but Wynaut can trap more effectively, albeit only once, and can trap a wider range of foes. I don't think it should be rotting away in Low-D, why not look at it in a different light and give it a chance to shine?
 
Can we highlight Onix's placement in E Rank? It is a highly overused lead that is vastly overhyped. First of all, Normal Gem-boosted Explosion is not doing much when you have a paltry base 45 attack when you need at least 70. Secondly, its paltry base 45 attack also makes it set-up bait for faster Taunt users, such as Serperior, Gardevoir, and Liepard. Its typing also gives it many weaknesses to Water, Grass, Fighting, Ice, and Ground-type moves, making it very easy to wear down. Just because it can prevent Golem from laying down Stealth Rock doesn't mean it is a good Pokemon. It simply means noob players are using it a lot, like they did Evire and Dusknoir during the days of DPP. Seriously, Onix is very overrated, and it deserves something humbling.
 
Yeah, we can all place the Onix business on the shoulders of BlameTruth, who obviously sparked the use of Onix through one of his video series. Unfortunately, noob spam happens, such as (as mentioned in the above post) Dusknoir and Electivire in DPP. I agree with highlighting Onix's spot in E-Rank due to it's absolutely crippling weakness, lack of any offensive presence whatsoever, and it's niche (Stealth Rocks + Taunt) to be completely not worth it to be used in the current NU metagame.
 
I think a pokemon worth mentioning is Seaking. It can be a very dedicated special wall and works in great synergy with some of the higher tiered pokemon like Jync and Scolipede. Water is already a very good defensive type and if we add Seaking's ability lightningrod, it can make people think twice before using electric moves and Seaking only has one weakness that isn't as common as say fighting and ground. It can also counter electric types with Drill run and it has a decently strong STAB move in waterfall without mentioning water's very good neutral coverage. On the other side, Seaking has below average stats all around except for its attack and special defense stats, so if you don't have something to get rid of physical sweepers, Seaking will not be very useful, so I suggest a Low-C rank.
 
I think a pokemon worth mentioning is Seaking. It can be a very dedicated special wall and works in great synergy with some of the higher tiered pokemon like Jync and Scolipede. Water is already a very good defensive type and if we add Seaking's ability lightningrod, it can make people think twice before using electric moves and Seaking only has one weakness that isn't as common as say fighting and ground. It can also counter electric types with Drill run and it has a decently strong STAB move in waterfall without mentioning water's very good neutral coverage. On the other side, Seaking has below average stats all around except for its attack and special defense stats, so if you don't have something to get rid of physical sweepers, Seaking will not be very useful, so I suggest a Low-C rank.
No. No no no no no.

Seaking's "niche" as a dedicated special wall is basically nonexistant: aside from having Lightningrod there's no reason to use this as a special wall as it has siginificantly less special bulk than Lickilicky or Audino and has no reliable recovery, forcing it to either rely on RestTalk shenanigans or just die after taking 2 or 3 hits. It fets worse though: Even among specially defensive water types, Ludicolo outclasses Seaking in any way imaginable by having more special bulk and several ways to replenish its health. On top of that, its usable SpA allows him to use Scald to burn things while also dishing out decent deals of damage. You could also opt for Mantine if raw bulk is more your thing. Really, unless all of your other team members are weak to electric types and you somehow do still need a special wall with the water type that doesn't have a 4x weakness to grass (otherwise you might as well use Seismitoad) there's no reason to Seaking. Nicheless shit.

And don't come with its offensive set on smogon because it's awful and terribly outclassed. Seaking has subpar stats, a movepool that can't even make Magikarp jealous and is just shitty. I know you want to use somethign unique but I just don't see how this would work in nu, ever.
 
I can understand if one wants to nominate Seaking as an Water-type attacker with an Electric immunity (as seen here), but a special wall? I guess there's a first for everything.

Why are you not using, oh I don't know, Seismitoad over it? Seismtoad may be super weak to Grass, but Seaking isn't much better off if it is met by one either. Seaking has no support movepool to speak of, it cannot distinguish itself from other bulky Waters in the tier at all. Its piss poor bulk (and stats in general) force it to rely on RestTalk just to stay alive, whereas Alomomola can just heal itself and teammates while Seismitoad often doesn't even need recovery, both accomplishing way more than Seaking could hope for in a match. What does Seaking even wall? The only Electric-types I can think of that it walls completely is Electabuzz, as other Electrics can resort to other STAB (Rotom-S), super effective moves (Eelektross or HP Grass Electric-types), boost to overwhelm Seaking (Raichu, Coil Eelektross), or simply beat it down with brute force (Ampharos, Luxray), all while Seaking does jack-all in return. The only Electric-types Seaking can even hope to wall are Electabuzz, Electrode and Rotom-F, and even then the former two may carry HP Grass and the latter outright beats Seaking with SubSplit or Trick.

Don't even try to use Seaking offensively, Samurott eclipses it entirely.
 
...

Is your opponent's Musharna completely stopping your Sawk from sweeping? Is your opponent's Munchlax cockblocking your Jynx? Simply get in there, Encore it into a useless move, and Tickle it until you die of Toxic / they are at -6. Then, pair Wynaut up with a Skuntank, switch it in, and Pursuit the living crap out of it. Gothorita is probably better because it can trap more times a match, but Wynaut can trap more effectively, albeit only once, and can trap a wider range of foes. I don't think it should be rotting away in Low-D, why not look at it in a different light and give it a chance to shine?

how the fuck did you miss this opportunity
 
Changes!

Bastiodon up to Low B from Top C
Natu up from Mid D to Top D


Other things didn't get enough discussion to be moved up right now, so Wynaut, Audino etc. I have no issues with either of them, so just a bit more discussion would be great! If I missed anything let me know!
 
Here's the problem with Wynaut: it's completely and totally a one-trick pony. It's weak to U-turn (and a lesser extent Volt Switch) offense, and only really works to trap very specific Pokemon (Scarf Primeape locked into Close Combat / Scarf Jynx locked into Psychic, etc). This isn't even mentioning the fact that in order for it to work against Pokemon with multiple sets, you need to either a) Encore the opp into a non-damaging or weak attack or b) predict what attacking move it's going to use (Samurott can run special or physical, Eelektross, etc). You can make Wynaut work in NU, but it's in D-rank because you can make a lot of mons work in NU if you try hard enough.

Audino is about as good as Lickilicky from what I've seen, but I haven't used it enough so maybe @Treecko can shed some light on it?
 
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