Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[jas61292]

All you say is that if Fairy-types don't get matched with good secondary types they won't be anything special. And this is true for any good defensive typing we have. What matters is that Fairy-type is an inherently good defensive typing for the current OU metagame. If we will get Fairy-types with good stats, moves, abilities, and secondary typing to make this typing worth it is another discussion, but you saying that Fairy's defensive abilities are being overestimated is both wrong and without any reasoning.

Gen 2: Introducing Dark Type. Immune to the best type in the game. No common weaknesses. Super effective on the best type. Clearly amazing. Yet only 2 Dark pokemon are Gen 2 OU, and neither runs dark type moves.

The problem with your argument is the bolded part above. Gen 6 is not gen 5. Sure Fairy is an awesome defensive type when nothing runs Poison moves and only like two things run Steel moves. But when Fairy exists, this won't be the case. Fighting used to be a crap offensive type. Now its one of the best. Rock used to be an awesome defensive type, now its one of the worst. You can't just say that because this is how it is, then this is how it will be. Poison and Steel got offensive buffs, and practically everything has a move of one of these types to run. I just think it is foolish to make such assumptions of similarities between gen 5 and gen 6.

 

[alexwolf]

Gen 2: Introducing Dark Type. Immune to the best type in the game. No common weaknesses. Super effective on the best type. Clearly amazing. Yet only 2 Dark pokemon are Gen 2 OU, and neither runs dark type moves.

The problem with your argument is the bolded part above. Gen 6 is not gen 5. Sure Fairy is an awesome defensive type when nothing runs Poison moves and only like two things run Steel moves. But when Fairy exists, this won't be the case. Fighting used to be a crap offensive type. Now its one of the best. Rock used to be an awesome defensive type, now its one of the worst. You can't just say that because this is how it is, then this is how it will be. Poison and Steel got offensive buffs, and practically everything has a move of one of these types to run. I just think it is foolish to make such assumptions of similarities between gen 5 and gen 6.

I am aware of this, but you are forgetting something very important. Offensive type combos don't change between generations, unless the type chart changes and affects them radically of 'course. Fighting + Ghost, Flying + Fighting, Fighting + Rock, Dragon + Fire, Dragon + Water, Dragon + Ground are all still very potent (even though the combos of Dragon have been slightly nerfed), and Fairy-types will be there to help teams deal with them (by resisting both of them when paired with the right typing or by resisting the STAB type and being neutral to the other). You also said yourself that Dragon-types are very versatile and often have secondary STABs to hit Fairy-types for at least neutral damage, in OU. I agree, and this is why the Fairy-types that will make it in OU most probably won't counter the popular Dragons, just check them, which is still pretty damn useful. This means that Dragon-types won't suddenly go from metagame defining threats to useless and outlclassed threats, they will still be strong and i just can't get how you can't realize how much Fairy-types will help in dealing with Dragon-types. So, Fairy's Dragon checking services will be in big demand no questions asked, as well as their ability to handle well certain effective offensive type combos. Those traits are already enough to give to Fairy-types a good defensive role in OU, and i haven't even talked about how Fairies will be able to check or wall certain Dark and Bug Pokemon (for example Fairy / Fighting or Fairy / Ground checks Choice Band Tyranitar perfectly, which you should be deluded to believe that won't remain a solid OU Pokemon).

So, even if the metagame changes so much in comparison to the current one that many of our standards will change, certain top-tier threats just can't stop being relevant (Garchomp, Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, Latias, Latios) because they do so many things and are very versatile, and certain offensive type combos will have exactly the same importance.

 

[jas61292]

I am aware of this, but you are forgetting something very important. Offensive type combos don't change between generations, unless the type chart changes and affects them radically of 'course. Fighting + Ghost, Flying + Fighting, Fighting + Rock, Dragon + Fire, Dragon + Water, Dragon + Ground are all still very potent (even though the combos of Dragon have been slightly nerfed), and Fairy-types will be there to help teams deal with them (by resisting both of them when paired with the right typing or by resisting the STAB type and being neutral to the other). You also said yourself that Dragon-types are very versatile and often have secondary STABs to hit Fairy-types for at least neutral damage, in OU. I agree, and this is why the Fairy-types that will make it in OU most probably won't counter the popular Dragons, just check them, which is still pretty damn useful. This means that Dragon-types won't suddenly go from metagame defining threats to useless and outlclassed threats, they will still be strong and i just can't get how you can't realize how much Fairy-types will help in dealing with Dragon-types. So, Fairy's Dragon checking services will be in big demand no questions asked, as well as their ability to handle well certain effective offensive type combos. Those traits are already enough to give to Fairy-types a good defensive role in OU, and i haven't even talked about how Fairies will be able to check or wall certain Dark and Bug Pokemon (for example Fairy / Fighting or Fairy / Ground checks Choice Band Tyranitar perfectly, which you should be deluded to believe that won't remain a solid OU Pokemon).

So, even if the metagame changes so much in comparison to the current one that many of our standards will change, certain top-tier threats just can't stop being relevant (Garchomp, Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, Latias, Latios) because they do so many things and are very versatile, and certain offensive type combos will have exactly the same importance.

I get the feeling that we don't actually have as much of a differing opinion as it may seem. I don't think dragons will suddenly drop off making fairies unimportant. Nor do I think that fairies won't be good checks. What I do believe is that, contrary to what a lot of people, yourself included, have been saying, Fairy will not be one of (if not the) best types in the game. Defensively, Steel still greatly outclasses it. I won't say it is bad defensively, but I think it compares a lot better defensively to Ghost or Water, which are good, but not amazing. I think the main difference is that you see a lot of Ghost and Water types that are offensively inclined and don't really think they are anything special defensively. Not bad, but not good either. Steel types on the other hand you can often look at and see how they seem to have bulk simply by typing alone, even when the stats lack any bulk whatsoever. I feel Fairy is more of the former. From what I gather of what you are saying, I don't think you would disagree too much about that. Fairy is not Steel, but it has defensive potential, yes.

I feel our bigger disagreement is on the offensive side. Regardless of if we get any good Fairy Pokemon, Fairy moves may still be a thing. However, we have no idea what we will be getting. And personally, when looking at what we know so far, I'm having a hard time believing that it will be that useful outside of a STAB move. It certainly has decent neutral coverage, but I don't think there are a lot of existing Pokemon that would want to opt for Fairy coverage over what they already have. It might potentially see use to cover specific threats, but I don't think that would be common. Ice is simply superior for coverage on Dragons, and Fighting and Dark types are not something Pokemon typically run a SE coverage move specifically for. Again, as a STAB, Fairy could be pretty sweet, but I don't see it going much farther than that. Again though, this depends on what moves we get. If it is like Fighting and has CC and Aura Sphere like options, it will be a lot better than if it is like Ghost, with only Shadow Ball and Shadow Claw like options.

More than anything I'm not trying to say Fairy is bad. I'm trying to say Fairy is an unknown quantity and assuming too much about it in any direction is probably going to lead to inaccurate predictions.

 

[youngjake93]

Gengar has reason to run HP Fairy. It already is stuck with low BP attacks. It is supposed to counter all Bugs and Fighting with the 4x resist+immunity, but is too frail and weak(move-wise, not stats). HP Fairy allows it to score those KOs. Also, it has always wanted to hit Dark types with something more accurate than Focus Miss. Although Focus Blast has the power it needs and 4x matchup on Tyranitar+Bisharp, certain sets wouldn't mind settling.
Finally, there is the all important fact that Ghost+Fairy is only resisted by Pyroar. Plus Gengar may or may not get a real Fairy move and loves having two extra moveslots to play with.

TL;DR Gengar doesn't need STAB for Fairy to be useful and doesn't necessarily even want it for dragons anyway.

 

[alexwolf]

I get the feeling that we don't actually have as much of a differing opinion as it may seem. I don't think dragons will suddenly drop off making fairies unimportant. Nor do I think that fairies won't be good checks. What I do believe is that, contrary to what a lot of people, yourself included, have been saying, Fairy will not be one of (if not the) best types in the game. Defensively, Steel still greatly outclasses it. I won't say it is bad defensively, but I think it compares a lot better defensively to Ghost or Water, which are good, but not amazing. I think the main difference is that you see a lot of Ghost and Water types that are offensively inclined and don't really think they are anything special defensively. Not bad, but not good either. Steel types on the other hand you can often look at and see how they seem to have bulk simply by typing alone, even when the stats lack any bulk whatsoever. I feel Fairy is more of the former. From what I gather of what you are saying, I don't think you would disagree too much about that. Fairy is not Steel, but it has defensive potential, yes.

I feel our bigger disagreement is on the offensive side. Regardless of if we get any good Fairy Pokemon, Fairy moves may still be a thing. However, we have no idea what we will be getting. And personally, when looking at what we know so far, I'm having a hard time believing that it will be that useful outside of a STAB move. It certainly has decent neutral coverage, but I don't think there are a lot of existing Pokemon that would want to opt for Fairy coverage over what they already have. It might potentially see use to cover specific threats, but I don't think that would be common. Ice is simply superior for coverage on Dragons, and Fighting and Dark types are not something Pokemon typically run a SE coverage move specifically for. Again, as a STAB, Fairy could be pretty sweet, but I don't see it going much farther than that. Again though, this depends on what moves we get. If it is like Fighting and has CC and Aura Sphere like options, it will be a lot better than if it is like Ghost, with only Shadow Ball and Shadow Claw like options.

More than anything I'm not trying to say Fairy is bad. I'm trying to say Fairy is an unknown quantity and assuming too much about it in any direction is probably going to lead to inaccurate predictions.

Nobody is arguing that Fairy type will become a better defensive type than Steel. Steel is the best defensive typing by miles and this is almost impossible to change. However, just because it won't be the #1 defensive typing doesn't mean that it won't be an amazing defensive typing. Water, Ghost, and Ground for example, are very good defensive typings and this is the level of defensive potential people have been arguing that Fairy types will have. You are just overcomplicating things for no apparent reason. All people say is that Fairy will be a very good defensive-type (provided it gets the tool that every good defensive type needs to make a good defensive Pokemon), and very likely a very good offensive typing too. Fairy will be one of those typings such as Water and Fighting (the way it used to be in 5th gen), a good trait on itself for a Pokemon to have.

 

[jas61292]

Nobody is arguing that Fairy type will become a better defensive type than Steel. Steel is the best defensive typing by miles and this is almost impossible to change. However, just because it won't be the #1 defensive typing doesn't mean that it won't be an amazing defensive typing. Water, Ghost, and Ground for example, are very good defensive typings and this is the level of defensive potential people have been arguing that Fairy types will have. You are just overcomplicating things for no apparent reason. All people say is that Fairy will be a very good defensive-type (provided it gets the tool that every good defensive type needs to make a good defensive Pokemon), and very likely a very good offensive typing too. Fairy will be one of those typings such as Water and Fighting (the way it used to be in 5th gen), a good trait on itself for a Pokemon to have.

Honestly, I don't disagree for the most part. I just think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I never said you said it would be better than Steel defensively. All I am saying at all is that I think people are jumping the gun with their assumptions. As I said, I think it has defensive potential. And while I'm not sold on its offensive capabilities, I think that it will ultimately come down to what moves it has. I just think people are making claims that it is good at things that are far too much of an unknown to judge at this point. We don't know the metagame, so we don't know how good it will be in it. Its one thing to say X move has good power and a good effect, so it will be useful. Its something completely different to claim an entire typing with unknown moves and unknown members to be a metagame staple.

 

[termi]

Just gonna drop this in here before I forget again, but what if Nidoking and Nidoqueen got mega evolutions? It'd make quite a lot of sense considering X & Y are supposed to represent gender and such and Nidoking and Nidoqueen are explicitly male and female. Nidoking could get a buff in his offenses whereas Nidoqueen might become a bulky hulk. I'd like to see this happen, poison/ground is a great typing (especially with the newfound resistance to fairy) so if these mons could get a boost they'd become truly ou.

 

[GCSChris]

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing because I think people (like they always do when something new comes out) are vastly overestimating Fairy. I don't think it will be bad, but the metagame is not just going to stagnate at what it is now with Pokemon running exactly the same sets and letting Fairy types wall them. Things will adapt, and I don't think the defensive capabilities of fairy will be anything all that special once they do.

Also, fwiw, (while I disagree that Mismagius or Milotic are likely to be fairy in the first place), almost none of the possible fairies wall Latios. Psyshock screws most things up, except Gardevoir and maybe physically defensive Milotic (and Latios can very easily run a special coverage move to beat it anyways). And even Gardevoir needs defensive investment to avoid being two shot by a neutral hitting coverage move (or Psyshock) from LO or Specs Latios. Simply put, Dragons are strong as hell, and while I am not saying good fairies won't exist, there will not be as many good fairies as good dragons, and it will take a lot more than the typing itself and a good member or two to put a stop to them.

I too agree that fairy is being just a bit over-hyped. Who knows, it could be deserving of it, but I'm unsure the entire meta will turn upside down because of a new (good) type like a lot of people are saying (not just itt).

 

[Arash]

So far, everyone's been shedding a tear for Ice-types not getting anything or Dragons getting a decent counter, but I feel like the real victim here are Psychic-types. Fairy just swooped in and stole the 2 main reasons Psychic-types should exist: resistance to Fighting and Super Effective against Fighting. Psychic hits Poison Super Effectively and resists itself, but that's all it has over Fairy

with poison types set to rise to prominence (one of 2 types SE against fairy, resists fairy / fighting / bug / grass / itself), psychics may still be needed to counter them. All the best poison types are either immune to ground (gengar, crobat, weezing) or are able to pwn the majority of ground types (venusaur, tentacruel, roserade, nidoking, poison-arceus). No current poison type apart from drapion or (lol) skuntank likes facing psychics one-on-one (and even drapion can't take too many neutral special hits)

 

[Stone RG]

Honestly, I don't disagree for the most part. I just think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I never said you said it would be better than Steel defensively. All I am saying at all is that I think people are jumping the gun with their assumptions. As I said, I think it has defensive potential. And while I'm not sold on its offensive capabilities, I think that it will ultimately come down to what moves it has. I just think people are making claims that it is good at things that are far too much of an unknown to judge at this point. We don't know the metagame, so we don't know how good it will be in it. Its one thing to say X move has good power and a good effect, so it will be useful. Its something completely different to claim an entire typing with unknown moves and unknown members to be a metagame staple.

I agree completely with jas here, there's no point on speculating about Fairy-types given the fact that we pretty much have 3 pokes to work with (unless you're trying out Wigglytuff): Azumarill, Gardevoir and Sylveon. The latter's stat spread has been specualted about and given its an eevelution it will be decent ... if it were not for its horrible movepool. Gardevoir and Azumarill are more than likely going to OU, but none of them are remotely defensive, not to mention that we dont know crap about a decent fairy type move. If youre going to mention Mawile, until i see how the Mega-evo will be fairing, im not making assumptions: not even such a broken (type chart wise) typing can save Mawile at this point imo.

So, in short, i dont think we should be discussing this due to the lack of known moves, or even how much buffs previous pokes, specially dragons, will get.

P.D. talking about buffs, i was rolling through fanarts and i saw this:

inb4 Dragon/fairy

 

[Arash]

mega-mawile with pure power will be stronger than deoxys-A but there are no moves to help the pitiful base 50 speed... your options are either trick room, or a defensive set with the boosted defenses, but like you said we'll need to see how the mega-pokemon mechanics work out first

 

[P2X7]

mega-mawile with pure power will be stronger than deoxys-A but there are no moves to help the pitiful base 50 speed... your options are either trick room, or a defensive set with the boosted defenses, but like you said we'll need to see how the mega-pokemon mechanics work out first

Mawile does have access to Sucker Punch, though.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I agree completely with jas here, there's no point on speculating about Fairy-types given the fact that we pretty much have 3 pokes to work with (unless you're trying out Wigglytuff): Azumarill, Gardevoir and Sylveon. The latter's stat spread has been specualted about and given its an eevelution it will be decent ... if it were not for its horrible movepool. Gardevoir and Azumarill are more than likely going to OU, but none of them are remotely defensive, not to mention that we dont know crap about a decent fairy type move. If youre going to mention Mawile, until i see how the Mega-evo will be fairing, im not making assumptions: not even such a broken (type chart wise) typing can save Mawile at this point imo.

So, in short, i dont think we should be discussing this due to the lack of known moves, or even how much buffs previous pokes, specially dragons, will get.

P.D. talking about buffs, i was rolling through fanarts and i saw this:

inb4 Dragon/fairy

Dude I'm pretty sure that's just dragonite.

 

[GCSChris]

inb4 Dragon/fairy

If we could leave out stuff like this out of discussion it would be best, at the very least to just to avoid confusion. There is not evidence at all of Dragonite being fairy; if you want to speculate about Snubull of Clefairy being fairy type be my guest, but this is a bit too far out there to merit discussion. It's a fan art, nothing else, try to leave out thinds like "inb4 blank"

Thank you

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

If we could leave out stuff like this out of discussion it would be best, at the very least to just to avoid confusion. There is not evidence at all of Dragonite being fairy; if you want to speculate about Snubull of Clefairy being fairy type be my guest, but this is a bit too far out there to merit discussion. It's a fan art, nothing else.

Besides, all it is is dragonite with elements of its prevos included.

 

[Stone RG]

If we could leave out stuff like this out of discussion it would be best, at the very least to just to avoid confusion. There is not evidence at all of Dragonite being fairy; if you want to speculate about Snubull of Clefairy being fairy type be my guest, but this is a bit too far out there to merit discussion. It's a fan art, nothing else, try to leave out thinds like "inb4 blank"

Thank you

.______.
Wow i cant even use sarcasm around here, not even a bad one, ik full well its fanmade rofl.

 

[GCSChris]

.______.
Wow i cant even use sarcasm around here, not even a bad one, ik full well its fanmade rofl.

Oh no, I know you were just playing around, but I'm just recommending to stay clear of that kind of thing as a reminder so others don't start saying a bunch of BS, and I know that you know it is fanmade; you called it fan-art. There's nothing wrong with your post, I'm just reminding others to stay clear of speculation that far out. Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Stone RG]

Oh no, I know you were just playing around, but I'm just recommending to stay clear of that kind of thing as a reminder so others don't start saying a bunch of BS, and I know that you know it is fanmade; you called it fan-art. There's nothing wrong with your post, I'm just reminding others to stay clear of speculation that far out. Sorry if I was unclear.

Well i guess np on that lmao. :]

 

[IcyMan28]

So looking at the Eeveelutions, they all seem to get Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, and Heal Bell by some means. Assuming that these moves are kept in XY, does anyone think Sylveon would have a particular use for them? Calculations and other evidence put its most likely stat spread as 95 HP / 60 Atk / 65 Def / 110 SpA / 130 SpD / 60 Spe.

Now we don't know the metagame or anything like that, but with Fairy's great neutral coverage (and all its disadvantageous matchups being weak to ground), I think Sylveon's best option would be something like Moon Blast / HP Ground / Wish / Protect or Heal Bell. It's not like it'll has too many other options, and that set would actually be pretty decent in the current meta.

 

[Halcyon.]

Its speed has to be at least 95, as it was outsped by Politoed under Trick Room in the exhibition match in this video. Possibly the HP and Speed stats are switched? It also could be EVs and such (as in, max speed Sylveon and min speed Poli) but that seems unlikely.

 

[IcyMan28]

Its speed has to be at least 95, as it was outsped by Politoed under Trick Room in the exhibition match in this video. Possibly the HP and Speed stats are switched? It also could be EVs and such (as in, max speed Sylveon and min speed Poli) but that seems unlikely.

Given its 106 HP at level 30, it would absolutely have to have 95 Base HP or 110 with a really low IV (as in 1-3). The way that exhibition battle played out, it looked like the EVs and IVs were very deliberately placed. And then with the reveal of super training, comparison of Sylveon's stats to Pikachu almost completely excludes the possibility of 95 speed while heavily favoring 110 SpA and 130 SpD.

 

[Millky95]

HP is for coverage; ideally 4x coverage due to its low base power. As it stands, HP Ice is effective against more pokemon than HP Fairy. That may change with the release of new pokemon but for Fairy to outdo Ice (which will be tough, because of what Ice does to Dragonite/Salamence/Garchomp), there needs to be a decent influx of 4x Fairy weak pokemon. Dragon/Fighting, Fighting/Dark, and Dark/Dragon are the only candidates. So far, only three of those pokemon exist and only Hydreigon is particularly threatening. I'll stick with ice.

You half agreed with what I meant (retrospectively my intention wasn't clear, my apologizes) in that you'd use Ice (like Grass) to hit something at x4. Obviously for the Dragon types we most commonly use Ice is better because of that x4 weakness. Coverage wise I still feel like Fairy is better.

Ice hits: Dragons, Flying, Grass and Ground Super Effective and Fire, Ice, Water and Steel Not very Effective
Fairy hits: Dragon, Fighting and Dark Super Effective and Fire, Steel and Poison not very effective

Both hit Dragons well and Fire and Steels not well. I guess it depends on if you can hit Flying and Ground types already or if you can hit Fighting or Dark types. But neutral coverage Fairy is better. Also Ground/Fairy as perfect coverage hitting everything at least neutral.

 

[Aasgier]

Fire/Flying, Steel/Flying and Poison/Flying say "hi".

Ground/Fairy/Electric DOES get perfect neutral coverage though. /hopes Gardevoir gets Earth Power access next generation.

 

[youngjake93]

Fire/Flying, Steel/Flying and Poison/Flying say "hi".

Ground/Fairy/Electric DOES get perfect neutral coverage though. /hopes Gardevoir gets Earth Power access next generation.

Ground/Fairy/Electric can't hit Rotom-H

 

[Manitary]

http://www.pokemonxy.com/_ui/img/_en/art/Type-Matchup_chart_EN.pdf
Fairy matchups are confirmed, but there are some interesting news:
- Grass types are immune to powder and spore moves
- Electric types cannot be afflicted with the Paralyzed condition
- Ice types are immune to the Frozen condition

And, quoting from the site
Mega Garchomp's Attack and Special Attack both improve greatly, while its Speed goes down a little.

Fur Coat is confirmed to half physical damage taken.

New move announced: "Furfrou can learn Baby-Doll Eyes", a Fairy-type move [...] the user goes first regardless of Speed [+1 priority I guess]. The move can lower the target's Attack stat"

There are of course other news but they are less competitive-relevant.