Learning a Foreign Language

[Cresselia~~]

I know a couple thousand Kanjis and can read some light novels and newspaper articles without it being too much of a headache while my class probably can't even read the title.

Wow!
That is simply amazing.

(seriously, is anyone even great at writing for JP or CH?).

Back in the 90's, we had to.
And it was very stressful , boring, etc. I think most of the hatred came from here.
Homework was basically about copying characters over and over again. Talking about around 1 hour for a 7 year old.
And if we have calligraphy that day (you know the thing with the brush?) we could take up to 3 hours, for just Chinese homework.
Teachers were picky on stuff like whether there's a dot here, whether this line should go through that line, or whether this line should be inside that line.
We also had to do the cursive writing for English calligraphy, with fountain pens on a book called "copy book".

So people of my generation still hate it, and stuff hadn't changed much for now.
They still require current candidates to write for composition exams, Chinese literature, Chinese history, etc.
It's not multiple choice, it's not something to be marked with computers.

 

[Royal Flush]

Best tip I can give is: avoid translating everything in your mind. Instead, think about the "shape" of the word (aka signs).
i.e. you see the word りんご. Rather than translating to apple, imagine the red fruit thingy.

Having a hobby related to the language also helps a lot I guess?_? I did study english since I was a teenager, but most of my fluency came from videogames/movies/internet as a whole.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Practicing my Chinese!

我还觉得中文比日文有具体的福利。但是，学日文很好玩儿！

双方的语言对西洋人不容易。但是，这两个语言的共同点比较少。双方的语言写汉字，有时候一样的生词有差不多一样的发音。比如说，“概念”，用中文的拼音写　"gai nian"，用日文的ロマージ写 "gai nen"。如果用一样的汉字，要是普通有一样的意思。但是，日文和中文，真说的，它们没有语言学的关系。当然，对说英文的人，学汉字不容易，真难的写字制度。

对语言学生，中文比日文语法简单，学了容易。因为中文没有词性。日文还有三个别的写字制度，写汉字以外还有ひらがな和カタカナ。然后，在日文汉字都有复数的发音。我觉得其本的水平，日文比中文复杂的语言（不好的意思）。 但是我不觉得中文比日文容易。我才说“说中文”，“听懂了中文”真难！没错用音色真难！特别说，住在广州，人们的普通话不太好了。写中文，阅读中文不太难（当然，因为我会说日文，我觉得阅读汉字很容易－这是比较简单）。虽然中文的汉字多，但是有复数发音方法的字很少，所以我觉得对语言学生，阅读中文比日文容易。中文的问题只是用音色。很泄气！

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Wow!
That is simply amazing.

Thank you, but it isn't as impressive as it sounds though. That's the thing with Chinese, you can learn one Kanji and it won't be very helpful unless you know all the combinations. Taking 错综 for instance, just knowing one kanji out of that phrase doesn't net me much and it's really hard to infer the meaning of phrases even when you know both kanjis at times. And don't even get me started on the 成语 lol

Practicing my Chinese!

我还觉得中文比日文有具体的福利。但是，学日文很好玩儿！

双方的语言对西洋人不容易。但是，这两个语言的共同点比较少。双方的语言写汉字，有时候一样的生词有差不多一样的发音。比如说，“概念”，用中文的拼音写　"gai nian"，用日文的ロマージ写 "gai nen"。如果用一样的汉字，要是普通有一样的意思。但是，日文和中文，真说的，它们没有语言学的关系。当然，对说英文的人，学汉字不容易，真难的写字制度。

对语言学生，中文比日文语法简单，学了容易。因为中文没有词性。日文还有三个别的写字制度，写汉字以外还有ひらがな和カタカナ。然后，在日文汉字都有复数的发音。我觉得其本的水平，日文比中文复杂的语言（不好的意思）。 但是我不觉得中文比日文容易。我才说“说中文”，“听懂了中文”真难！没错用音色真难！特别说，住在广州，人们的普通话不太好了。写中文，阅读中文不太难（当然，因为我会说日文，我觉得阅读汉字很容易－这是比较简单）。虽然中文的汉字多，但是有复数发音方法的字很少，所以我觉得对语言学生，阅读中文比日文容易。中文的问题只是用音色。很泄气！

The issue I described above is more common in Chinese and I think that is why it is harder. Even without strict grammar like Japanese or other writing alphabets, the kanji combinations you have to know in chinese way surpasses Japanese (not that Japanese doesn't have a ton of kanji combinations as well). Plus, the numerous grammatical nuances in Japanese makes writing and speech patterns a bit easier in a sense that it is almost formulaic. For Chinese, the fact it is pretty unstructured makes sentences very easy to understand no matter what you do with it, but it also brings out a lot of inefficiencies (excessive comma usage, overly simplistic sentences, etc.) due to confusion over a lack of structure. It is easy at a basic level to get the point across at least. I do agree intonation is a pain at first but eventually it becomes second nature for words you commonly use. As for "但是有复数发音方法的字很少", in a different sense, one pinyin has numerous characters falling under it so I'd say the numerous pronunciations also apply to Chinese in a way. I mean you can argue both ways for all these areas. In the end, it all depends on what kind of background you have I guess. Whenever I get around to Japanese (if I do), maybe I'll have a better view of it then.

Also some of it was a bit confusing to interpret and there were quite a lot of unorthodox wordings so I may have misunderstood at some parts.

Back in the 90's, we had to.
And it was very stressful , boring, etc. I think most of the hatred came from here.
Homework was basically about copying characters over and over again. Talking about around 1 hour for a 7 year old.
And if we have calligraphy that day (you know the thing with the brush?) we could take up to 3 hours, for just Chinese homework.
Teachers were picky on stuff like whether there's a dot here, whether this line should go through that line, or whether this line should be inside that line.
We also had to do the cursive writing for English calligraphy, with fountain pens on a book called "copy book".

So people of my generation still hate it, and stuff hadn't changed much for now.
They still require current candidates to write for composition exams, Chinese literature, Chinese history, etc.
It's not multiple choice, it's not something to be marked with computers.

In the end it's for the best. Preservation of original writing practices is needed to prevent pinyin input from taking over the world lol. It sounds very tedious even with simplified characters, but from what I've seen, most students from China/Taiwan/Singapore can write very well despite not enjoying the process, I just never see anyone write Chinese anymore. Plus, writing is one of the best ways to understand the language since you get to formulate proper sentences and memorize the character better. At the very least the system works.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Practicing my Chinese!

我还觉得中文比日文有具体的福利。但是，学日文很好玩儿！

双方的语言对西洋人不容易。但是，这两个语言的共同点比较少。双方的语言写汉字，有时候一样的生词有差不多一样的发音。比如说，“概念”，用中文的拼音写　"gai nian"，用日文的ロマージ写 "gai nen"。如果用一样的汉字，要是普通有一样的意思。但是，日文和中文，真说的，它们没有语言学的关系。当然，对说英文的人，学汉字不容易，真难的写字制度。

对语言学生，中文比日文语法简单，学了容易。因为中文没有词性。日文还有三个别的写字制度，写汉字以外还有ひらがな和カタカナ。然后，在日文汉字都有复数的发音。我觉得其本的水平，日文比中文复杂的语言（不好的意思）。 但是我不觉得中文比日文容易。我才说“说中文”，“听懂了中文”真难！没错用音色真难！特别说，住在广州，人们的普通话不太好了。写中文，阅读中文不太难（当然，因为我会说日文，我觉得阅读汉字很容易－这是比较简单）。虽然中文的汉字多，但是有复数发音方法的字很少，所以我觉得对语言学生，阅读中文比日文容易。中文的问题只是用音色。很泄气！

I would change 福利 into 益處 , because I think you want to say "benefit/ beneficial", instead of social welfare.
福利 usually refers to social welfare/ rights of certain groups (usually limited to financial rights; stuff like suing ethnic slurs are referred to us 權利 ), etc.

I think 真说的 should be 说真的 . (I think you mean "really speaking"?)

I would add a 上 in here: 它们没有语言学 上 的关系
真难的写字制度。 ---> 写字的制度真难。

对语言学生，中文比日文语法简单，学了容易。 ---> 对学语言的学生 , 中文的语法比日文简单 , 学了容易。

(To language students, "language" is an adjective in Chinese, as it is describing the student, so a 的 is needed), (same here),
I think you want to mean "easy to learn"? If so, I'd say 更容易学。

然后，在日文汉字都有复数的发音。
I would change 复数的 into 多個 because I think you mean "more than one pronunciation".
Whereas, "复数" only refers to how in European languages, you have to add an "s" (or whatever) when the noun is plural. It's rarely used outside describing grammar of European languages.

我觉得其本的水平，日文比中文复杂的语言（不好的意思）。
Sorry, I don't think I quite catch you there.

没错用音色真难！
I think "tone" is called 音調; whereas 音色 means timbre.

特别说，住在广州，人们的普通话不太好了。 --> 尤其是在广州，人们的普通话不太好。
Because I think you mean "especially" instead of "specially speaking".
Or you can also say 特别是住在广州的人们, 普通话不太好。
But I don't really know how to explain why.

中文的问题只是用音色。---> 中文的问题只局限於用音調。 or 中文的问题只是在於使用音調。
(用 is more towards "used", whilst 使用 is more towards "actively utilizing".)

Actually, it's good. Many students in Hong Kong still write whatever nonsense in their public exams, to the point the examiner cannot understand them at all.
But I can understand most of your writing, I'd say around 90% and I love how you organized it. I think you are good at writing 說明文. :D
Local people these days, somehow, are not good at organizing the structure of their paragraphs, and in fact you are even better than most of them.

Maybe because they didn't take it seriously. I guess it's a bit like how native English speakers often mix up "we're" and "were"; "your" and "you're", whilst foreigners rarely have this problem.


(Wait... I hope you don't mind me using traditional characters? I didn't study the simplified ones, so maybe some might not appear in your dictionary?)

 

[Chou Toshio]

Dude, awesome-- thanks so much! Free lesson. Lol

Don't worry about traditional-- I started Chinese study back in middle school where the teachers were super traditional and forced stroke order and traditional characters down our throats-- so I'm actually pretty comfortable with traditional. Also, it's not uncommon for traditional to look more like Japanese.

Actually, while I hated the traditional teaching style and my early teachers (who ultimately made me want to quit and hate language study for years-- it was awful), I can't deny that strict enforcement of traditional, pinyin pronunciation, radical study, and even stroke order made my Chinese and Japanese studies so much easier later on in life.

 

[SuperScizor]

Well, the trick is mostly to learn them while you can and the younger you are, the better. I know Swedish, Russian, English, Spanish and now learning German. Hopefully I will get the chance to learn French and Italian in the future :D

 

[Chou Toshio]

^I actually disagree that younger is necessarily better. It can be (especially in regards to mother languages), but not always. Yes, kids have better hearing than adults-- but adults have better discipline, and a greater understanding of the importance of language than kids do. Motivation and dedicated study can lead to much better results than a "young" ear without the desire or willpower to learn or focus. I'm a much better foreign language learner now than I was as a child.

 

[Grey Knight]

Just learn latin the mother language, everything comes easier after that.

 

[gvmgvm40]

I'm a native Turkish speaker. I took English classes for 8 years during primary/secondary school and I consider myself fluent, while most of my friends who took the same classes as me can't speak English at all. As others have said, immersion is the key- in my case, it was my thirst for knowledge that made me fluent in English. For 2-3 years I spent most of my free time reading stuff and watching videos in English on the internet -mostly about Pokemon and other video games, but also other stuff like history and geography- which helped me a lot.

I took German classes for 3 years in highschool, but I didn't really try to get immersed in it like I did in English, so despite getting pretty good marks back in the day I don't remember much now. I've started taking it again and I want to actually learn it now. In addition to German, I'll also start taking Spanish classes this year. My major is Political Science and International Relations, so I gotta pick up at least a few more languages for that.

And oh, I want to double major in History, which means I'll need to learn Ottoman Turkish for the next 2 years. It's archaic Turkish heavily influenced by Arabic and Persian languages, written in Arabic alphabet (unlike modern Turkish which is written in Latin). It'll be easier than learning a completely foreign language, but mastering the Arabic alphabet will be the tough part. We'll see how that goes.

 

[destinyunknown]

i'm like, half conversational in spanish. it's something that i actually enjoy learning but i find it difficult to keep studying it past what i got from school because i don't really have anyone to practice it with. also i get kind of discouraged by my poor grammar. grammar is hard.

The good thing about spanish is mainly the pronunciation, because it's very simple and as long as you speak with someone that doesn't talk too fast it's pretty easy to understand (comparing to languages like english or french which have a tough pronunciation). It also helps that you can easily know how a word is spelled after hearing it. I have heard, both in the internet and also from foreign friends of mine that the 'rr' sound is difficult to pronunciate but that's actually a common problem among children in Spain (ie my sister had to go to a speech therapist because she was unable to pronounce the 'rr')

The hard part is obviously the grammar because there are a lot of irregular verbs and conjugations, and tbh, most people in Spain (and I mean like more than 50% of the population) aren't able to conjugate the verbs in all their tenses and don't use the proper verbal form for each situation. Which means that there are some tenses that are pretty much never used and others that depend on the zone / dialect (for example, in some zones people use the Pretérito imperfecto or Imperfect all the time and never use the Pretérito Simple and in other places it's the other way around - this is easier to understand with examples). What I'm trying to say is that, despite the fact that there are a lot of tenses, you can get away with half of them (at least when speaking) because there are 3 or 4 tenses (it's an estimation so it might not be accurate) that you will read / hear once in a blue moon and that, as I said, most spaniards don't even know how to conjugate. I actually think that English tenses are pretty similar meaning-wise to Spanish tenses as long as you know what you're doing so if you manage to get the correlation then the rest is actually easy, and I for one think that when you manage to assimilate the basic differences (like the position of the adjectives) and how to link sentences it's easy to translate from English to Spanish and vice-versa.

As for me, I think I'm fairly proficient at speaking English (though I still find some accents a bit hard to understand sometimes) and I'm also learning French at the moment. French is very similar to Spanish grammar and vocabulary wise but the pronunciation is a bitch and it somehow feels like a kinda disjointed language to me (talking about the way sentences are written) and I sometimes find texts difficult to understand even if I know what's the meaning of every word in particular.

Oh and if anybody here has any question about Spanish feel free to ask me, I like languages a lot and I'll be glad to answer.

 

[Fishin]

I've been studying Japanese intermittently and very casually for about a year and a half now. I did it with the express purpose of being able to read more VNs and better understand anime so I've pretty much ignored areas like writing and speaking that don't directly contribute to that. Probably not the most efficient method of learning but I'm enjoying myself as I do it and that's more than enough motivation to continue.

 

[Alice]

And oh, I want to double major in History, which means I'll need to learn Ottoman Turkish for the next 2 years. It's archaic Turkish heavily influenced by Arabic and Persian languages, written in Arabic alphabet (unlike modern Turkish which is written in Latin). It'll be easier than learning a completely foreign language, but mastering the Arabic alphabet will be the tough part. We'll see how that goes.

I wish I could learn ottoman turkish, but modern turkish classes alone are hard to come by where i live ;_;

 

[TrueSoprano]

In my experience, practicing and speaking the language a lot is the best way to learn.

For example, I took 2 Italian classes last year. The first one I took over the summer, when I had nothing else distracting me and I could focus on learning the language. But during the second class, I had too many other classes to worry about and couldn't focus as much on it.

I hear immersion is the best way to learn, though. If you have the money, go abroad for a semester when you know a lot about the language. My high school Spanish teacher said that immersion was more affective than AP Spanish.

Good luck! I hear Japanese is a really hard language to learn.

 

[aVocado]

I kind of really want to learn German but I don't know where to start from.

 

[Grey Knight]

I kind of really want to learn German but I don't know where to start from.

latin

 

[avalanche3387]

I kind of really want to learn German but I don't know where to start from.

I hear German is very similar to English and isn't too challenging. Just start learning vocab words and learn a bunch of words.

I am still trying to get my first few Japanese words down. I found a list of verbs that I'm starting to study and understand. But thank you guys for the replies and help, it's very useful.

It is a long term project, it takes more than a couple days. That's something I'm trying to teach myself, be patient and it'll come. It'll take a few months to be proficient enough to order a meal and a while longer to enjoy a movie. I gotta put more effort into it still.

 

[X5Dragon]

I was taught Arabic and English at the same age so I consider them both my mother language though I am better at the former because of where I lived most of my years. I am learning Japanese atm and even though I have bought Kanji books and such, I've decided just to learn how to speak and understand the language and then learn how to write it later.

 

[gvmgvm40]

I kind of really want to learn German but I don't know where to start from.

latin

No. Latin and German aren't closely related at all. The main Latin languages are Italian/French/Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan/Romanian. Learning Latin will only help significantly with these languages. In contrast, German belongs to the Germanic branch, whose most spoken languages are English/German/Dutch/Afrikaans/Danish/Norwegian/Swedish.

Excluding grammatical gender, German grammar is really similar to English, so it won't be hard to learn for an English speaker. I'd suggest getting a German language book and following it, but you can also find a bunch of stuff on the internet. I find BBC's site helpful for starting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/german/talk/

 

[asterat]

Hi guys every time I go into third year Spanish I want to decapitate myself and the teacher.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Hi, I'm taking Japanese in school and I'm really enjoying it. The teacher goes through material pretty slowly, but he's hilarious and knowledgeable so it's all good (also he was the Japan correspondent for a gaming magazine once :D).

So my main question. I'm really interested in pursuing Japanese in college and beyond, and I think an excellent way to both further these goals and increase my knowledge of the language would be to serve some kind of internship/work thing in Japan during summer between my junior and senior years. Can any Smogoners who have experience living in Japan (paging Chou Toshio) give any advice on if this kind of thing exists/how I would go about doing it?

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Hi, I'm taking Japanese in school and I'm really enjoying it. The teacher goes through material pretty slowly, but he's hilarious and knowledgeable so it's all good (also he was the Japan correspondent for a gaming magazine once :D).

So my main question. I'm really interested in pursuing Japanese in college and beyond, and I think an excellent way to both further these goals and increase my knowledge of the language would be to serve some kind of internship/work thing in Japan during summer between my junior and senior years. Can any Smogoners who have experience living in Japan (paging Chou Toshio) give any advice on if this kind of thing exists/how I would go about doing it?

There are a few companies who do this, but it is very rare depending on the field. The problem is being able to legally work there or having sponsorship from the company (which they'll never take the chance until you are will integrated in the workplace after you graduate). I do know a few companies hiring Japanese speakers for business needs, government work, and teaching at the college level but you have to be pretty darn good, like I've seen people with Japanese/Chinese majors/minors be rejected from internship programs because learning a language solely from school isn't enough. In short, don't bank on this to ever happen for undergrad and shortly after graduating.

If you do want to give it a try, it never hurts. Again, it depends heavily on what field you're going into. Just don't place a major in the language above all else, otherwise you'll have a hard time getting anything. Personal experience from talking to recruiters, interns, and people who have successfully gone abroad to work.

 

[KnivesInAToaster]

I thought this could potentially be a useful topic/discussion. Something I want to know is what your experiences are with learning a new language and the best or worst methods.

Personally, I thought it would be cool to learn Japanese. I got one of the "For Dummies" books and got a start but have since dropped it. I want to get back into it though. I would think having a study buddy for it would help but I don't have any friends that seem interested and I'm not sure how to go alone.

I find taking a class is what's helping me. I'm a High School freshman and we're required to take a language and out of those available (Spanish and Chinese) I took Chinese. I find it's easier when you have someone guiding you along at first - like riding a bike. At this point, after I learn Chinese I'm aiming for Japanese as well because Chinese is practically a foundation for Japanese. Never have to watch another English sub ever again until I do because I'm lazy.

 

[gvmgvm40]

I wish I could learn ottoman turkish, but modern turkish classes alone are hard to come by where i live ;_;

Sorry for not replying soon- I'm genuinely curious though, is there any reason you want to learn Turkish? This is the first time I'm seeing somebody that wants to learn Turkish :D Also obviously, if you have any questions I'd be glad to answer.

In other news, during the last few weeks I've taken an interest in other Turkic languages. Turkish is already pretty much mutually intelliglible with Azeri, Gagauz, Crimean Tatar and Iraqi Turkmen; and I can also understand both spoken and written Turkmen and Salar to a decent degree (I'd guess around %70). I'm pretty sure that if the political situation now was different, all these languages (i.e. the Oghuz branch) could be considered one language. The difference isn't greater than the difference between German or Italian "dialects".

The Karluk branch -Uzbek and Uyghur, mainly- is pretty distinct from (but still rather close to) the Oghuz branch, and it's this 2 that I've been trying to learn. Reading these 2 is less like reading a foreign language, it's more like trying to decode an encrypted version of Turkish for me: the spelling/pronunciation rules, grammatical cases and verb conjugations differ. Once you figure these out however, it's not that different from Turkish. After just 3-4 days of casual research I can now open Uzbek Wikipedia and understand most of what I read. I find that pretty amazing actually- these people live some 5-6 thousand kilometers away from me and my ancestors haven't had contact with them for maybe six, seven hundred years, yet we can still understand each other with some slight effort.

Now, for the other Turkic branches- I can pick up some words and simple sentences when I read or listen to a language of the Kipchak branch (Kazakh/Kyrgyz/Tatar/Bashkir), but the differences are too great for me to understand/get used to. I'd guess about %25-30 intelliglibility. The other 2 branches, Siberian and Oghur, are extremely distant and I can't understand anything. I'd be listening to Chinese, for all its worth.

 

[MrIndigo]

In high school, our first year we did one semester each of France, German, Indonesian, and Japanese; they were the only languages offered at my school at all.

Second year, we picked one of the four, and did it all year. From then on, language was just an optional unit.

I did Japanese from Year 8 through to the HSC (did okay-but-not-great in it - my worst mark, but luckily didn't count towards my final result because that only takes top 5 subjects). Now I'm working for a firm that is about 40% chinese, and the largest Asian-HQ law firm in the world, so I think it would be appropriate and useful to start taking Chinese classes, but haven't got around to it.