Move Stealth Rock

[WashedLaundry]

I disagree.

My reason is exactly that - OMNIPRESENCE. In the true sense of the word.

People think Scizor being on 1 out of 4 teams is bad.

The effects of Stealth Rock are felt for about 90% of the time in 90% of the games.

I feel that having 1 move have such an impact on nearly every single turn of nearly single Pokemon battle makes Stealth Rock a special case, and it should be banned solely because of its omnipresence.

So? Scizor's omnipresent. Heatran's omnipresent. Tyranitar is omnipresent. There are a lot of things you simply have to account for, regardless of whether or not they actually will exist on the enemy team, because they are in the game.

No one thinks scizor being in 1/4 teams is bad they were saying that as a counterpoint to your vapid argument lol

 

[Shiruba]

Dodge the question more, please.

How is Rocks negative?

Because right now, the entire emphasis of your argument is that it's basically omnipresent and that alone is a really bad argument lopl.

because it alone makes a pokemon significantly worse: case in point moltres, which wrecks in the no sr meta, but others that're formerly weak to sr are even better as well. this isn't just in ou, either - this is every tier that allows sr.
because it's practically required on every team in every archetype in every tier in order for said team to be good, and it could always be made better with rocks, no matter which kind of team it is.
because with the rise of the ghosts due to their buffs, it'll probably be even harder to spin. defog exists, sure, but it means you can't use hazards either, which is very no bueno.
because it has so little opportunity cost, as it only takes one turn to use, and it will probably be there for the entire match; factoring in sr damage is standard procedure in damage calcs, you know that.
because it is often seen as better to sack your pokemon to get rocks up than to conserve it for later, showing how amazing it is.
because it has such good distribution, so it's not like it's hard to find a pokemon that is both good and can use rocks. the amount of rapid spinners, let alone good ones, is paltry in comparison.

more importantly, though, why the hell are you guys talking about bans in a meta that barely exists yet?


you also don't seem to understand the definition of omnipresent.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition of omnipresent
om·ni·pres·ent(

m

n

-pr

z

nt)
adj.
"Present everywhere simultaneously."

being on a quarter of teams doesn't make you omnipresent, especially in a single tier. being on virtually every good team in every tier, however, does. at least as far as you can get in a game such as pokemon, with such variety and skill level.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

So? Scizor's omnipresent. Heatran's omnipresent. Tyranitar is omnipresent. There are a lot of things you simply have to account for, regardless of whether or not they actually will exist on the enemy team, because they are in the game.

No one thinks scizor being in 1/4 teams is bad they were saying that as a counterpoint to your vapid argument lol

A Pokemon used in 1/4th of teams like Scizor means that Scizor represents about 4% of the Pokemon population in OU.

The effects of Stealth Rock, on the other hand, are felt on nearly every single turn of nearly every single game.

There's no point in trying to compare the ubiquity of Scizor to Stealth Rock.

---

And not only that, but OU Pokemon are not allowed in lower tiers.

But the effects of Stealth Rock effect every single turn of every single game of every single tier.

There's simply no escape from it.

Omnipresence.

 

[crazy_man]

more importantly, though, why the hell are you guys talking about bans in a meta that barely exists yet?

/thread

We need to have more time pass for the natural progression of a new Gen to take course. No need to call for Bans for a metagame THAT ISN'T EVEN 2 WEEKS OLD.

We've already had an Evasion and Swift Swim thread calling for bans/unbans, tho not as heated as this is becoming.

This is quickly becoming kinda outta control.....

 

[WashedLaundry]

because it alone makes a pokemon significantly worse: case in point moltres, which wrecks in the no sr meta, but others that're formerly weak to sr are even better as well. this isn't just in ou, either - this is every tier that allows sr.
because it's practically required on every team in every archetype in every tier in order for said team to be good, and it could always be made better with rocks, no matter which kind of team it is.
because with the rise of the ghosts due to their buffs, it'll probably be even harder to spin. defog exists, sure, but it means you can't use hazards either, which is very no bueno.
because it has so little opportunity cost, as it only takes one turn to use, and it will probably be there for the entire match; factoring in sr damage is standard procedure in damage calcs, you know that.
because it is often seen as better to sack your pokemon to get rocks up than to conserve it for later, showing how amazing it is.
because it has such good distribution, so it's not like it's hard to find a pokemon that is both good and can use rocks.

well this is actually an argument.

I mean, the point of the move is to keep Pokemon in check. That seems to be the reason for its existence--flying types got to avoid spikes, let's punish them for it. You can argue game freak screwed up but it's been 2 generations since its inception now and they've made absolutely no changes to it. Given everything else they changed this generation, I have to assume that they believe that it's an otherwise balanced move save maybe for the ways to remove it. You can argue with their decisions for Gen 5 but everything in Gen 6 suggests it to be a solidly spectacular metagame as they've made many overt and also subtle changes to the game to improve the quality of play. For them to disregard stealth rock, which is a rather large thing to miss, suggests that they're fine with it in its current iteration or that they made a serious gaff. I'm willing to bet the former, given that they were so prudent to nerf a move like substitute.

Saying "well these Pokemon would be better if it didn't exist" is kind of an obvious statement to make, given that it's meant to hold Pokemon in check. Maybe it does its job too well and maybe it's too easy to use, but I'd rather not ban stealth rock, then end up banning Volcarona and Dnite and maybe a couple of other 'mons simply because we banned one of the few things holding them in check in the first place simply because it's everywhere.

Looking at it in a vacuum, though, I think I'd like to look at it a bit more down the road when the gen shapes up a bit. Right now, I definitely agree with this point below you made. That, and it's 2:15 and I should be focusing on other things like sleep.

more importantly, though, why the hell are you guys talking about bans in a meta that barely exists yet?

cause this guy brought it up and i found it more interesting than what i was otherwise doing

 

[Shiruba]

actually, volcarona and dragonite aren't as bad as one might think they are sans sr. there're still lots of checks to them - cloyster is the most prominent, and can smash both of them with x4 super effective attacks. terrakion's also pretty swell. they're still strong, of course, but they're not terrible. even if they are, we ban them, too. it's not banning policy to keep something in a meta if it just checks other broken things.

might be worth it to check out a few no sr matches; if you rule out the crappy teams featuring charizard, venusaur, blastoise, pikachu, snorlax, and espeon, it's actually not all that different, save for actually seeing pokemon like moltres in there. apparently it functions as a great rain counter to sun, or the other way around, not too sure. i personally have more fun watching the matches than regular ou, but maybe it's just me.

 

[Nyara]

Let's go point by point.

1. Scizor is just on 1 out of 4 teams.
2. Stealth Rock is just on 9,1 of 10 teams (at least on the previous generation).

Ok, see the difference? When something pass of the 25% of the entire game enter in what I call excesive omnipresence. Why people use too much Stealth Rock? Because, under normal or any logical analysis, it is OP as hell as it will make more than 300% of damage per game on a single turn (considering the standar number of switches). Yes, I know that there exist Defog and Rapid Spin, and so what? Think in that way: The spinner needs to waste a turn using those moves, the same move number you use on setting it, so, in the worst scenario, you're just not losing nothing. Well, Defog is a that good move against Stealth Rock? Not too much as most of its users are weak to it, yes, the same reason why Ninetales had more problems against Politoed on the previous generation, so, it will not be a too usual move, and those who use it will still be using Stealth Rock for its OP status anyway (the flexibity of SR + Defog is far superior to the one of only Defog).

Ok, now we know Stealth Rock is omnipresent, and it is OP. Well, what does it make to the metagame?

1. Any Pokémon weak to it will inmediatly fall 2-3 tiers, without questions, UNLESS it does have a way to surpass losing the 25% or 50% of its life, in other words: Cloyster, Gyarados, Ninetales, Thundurus-T, Dragonite, Salamance, Volcarona, end list. What is common on all of them? Easy, all of them have an ability to exploit an enter or defense (Intimidate, Roost, Multiscale), an OP ability (Ninetales) or just incredible high abilities to sweep in few turns.
2. Let's see how many types are weak to rock... 4 of 19, 21% of the entire metagame on every tier is almost completely impossible to use because Stealth Rock.
3. Switching is not more an option at all with few exceptions, with that you reduce the number of possible actions from 4 + 5 to just reducing strategy oriented options = you reduce the need of skill and increase the need of luck. Luck is less competitive, less competitive is clearly not good for a competitive metagame.
4. Because SR, too much other things, specially the obligatory use of spinners for a lot of teams, reducing even more the viable ammount of strategies and thus, the number of strategies to study, and thus, even less study and skill is required to win.

Reasons to ban something:

1. It is excesive omnipresent and focus the game on it.
2. It is excesive overpowered, with a power that never have penalties and always have huge rewards. (You have absolutely no reason or almost not to not use it if you want to increase your chance to win).
3. It reduce the need of skill and increase the need of luck. (Shutting down more than the half of the options on a battle and limiting an excesive numbers of Pokémon to very few).

Well, SR fits on everything on any normal criteria to ban something, curious, nope? Well, that is. That SR is needed because Volcarona and Dragonite will destory everything? WHAT stop us to ban Volcarona and Dragonite if those theoric (specially considering that removing SR will change the ENTIRE metagame) scenarios comes to be true? Nothing? Excelent, let's proceed.

The unique reason to dont ban Stealth Rock and why it wasn't banned earlier is because tradition. You're used to it? It makes you use lees the brain and makes things easier? Well, people will always lobby for those things, but that ins't competitive nor rational (and broke our current and any suggested set of rules to ban things), mind that.

 

[manutdrule]

theres no reason at all NOT to run stealth rocks. theres no drawbacks at all, it gives free damage in a switching-focused singles. such a simple and thoughtless move to use yet it wrecks havoc and the move itself causes many X4 weak pokemon to move down in forgotten tiers. Theres rapid spin in the past but that does not stop everyone and their mothers and just going herpderpsneaky pebbles all matches. I yearn for the day where it is finally banned. But too bad smogon love it too much to do that and defog gives them some "justification" not to do that.

 

[JolteonFTW]

Did I take a wrong turn and stumble into /vp/ or something?

 

[WashedLaundry]

I simply just don't care that much about it, I just like arguing with people who think it should be banned. I don't see the point personally. It'd be nice to avoid a couple of crucial 1hkos from offensive teams but I get as much use out of it as they do so I can't really care that much about removing it. I'm a stall player by nature, I don't want to have to run something like Cloyster or Azumarill to handle Pokemon like Volcarona or Dragonite now because they can carry Lum Berry and turn a one-turn advantage into a two-turn advantage simply because of the bulk (especially in the latter's case) that they possess. Stealth rock gives me a decent answer.

I might spectate the SR-less ladder at some point though. It sounds interesting enough and I certainly don't mind seeing other perspectives.

I'm just amused when people say "it's omnipresent, therefore it's op" as that's quite a logical leap to make. Yeh, there's a focus on it, just like there's a focus on how to stop an opponent's sweep or how to break an opponent's wall. We have to include wallbreakers, stallbreakers, sweepers, walls, tanks, methods of handling this or that when they're not even nearly as obvious as Stealth Rocks is. It's just another layer to the game to me and while some people want to remove it, I certainly don't mind keeping it. It helps offense secure KOs on Pokemon like Latias, Latios, DNite, and the like, and it helps defense check Pokemon like Lum Berry DNite and Lum Berry Volcarona (especially in the latter's case as most bulky waters that would otherwise wall him struggle to take him down before he can set up and blow through them, especially in a post-rain meta). It's 100% easy to set up and maintain and that's a fair argument to make but complaining about how it's holding things back when it's deliberately meant to do that seems a little...wrong.

 

[Mangojoker]

Stealth rock need not be banned but it must be nerfed. Spikes, toxic spikes and sticky web don't affect certain pokemon. Similarly, some pokemon must be made immune to stealth rock to balance the playing field. Or its damaging power must be reduced.

 

[Nyara]

Well, ideally, it must be nerfed, an ideally nerf could be make it stackable like spikes, 1/3 of damage with the first tile, 1/2 with the second, our current with the third. But if that isn't possible, in my opinion, it must be banned, and if we don't ban it, I don't see why we ban Lugia or Kyogre from OU, oh, yeah, because we don't want to see those always massive reward null risks mons being used on the 90%> of the teams and 100% of any minimal decent team. Difference with Stealth Rock? Nope, but people is used to it and have fear of the uncharted if that is removed (we're on an uncharted territory, anyway).

Yes, yes, I know that ubers exist, but the existance of ubers is just for the reason of making an "anything goes" tier than anything else.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

Stealth rock need not be banned but it must be nerfed. Spikes, toxic spikes and sticky web don't affect certain pokemon. Similarly, some pokemon must be made immune to stealth rock to balance the playing field. Or its damaging power must be reduced.

Well, sure, if Stealth Rock could be nerfed that would be fine and dandy - but that would require waiting until at least Gen 7 and hoping GameFreak finally realizes how overpowered Stealth Rock is, just as it took them several generations to catch onto some other overpowered moves. *sigh*

And to those people making the argument "well, GameFreak didn't touch it, so it must be good!"... you do realize that by GameFreak's logic we're still allowed to spam Double Team and put all of the opponents Pokemon to sleep, right? Do people think that would be good for the metagame? ... I didn't think so.

 

[BROloom]

Nyara, if you've played the non stealth rocks ladder, you'll notice the massive problem with stuff like focus sash. The thing with stealth rocks question isn't just "is it omnipresent", it's "is it the lesser of two evils?". If the answer is that it's the lesser of two evils, then it needs to stay, if it's not the lesser of two evils, then you can make an argument for it being banned.

Also with SR, it can be on a team, but yet you can stop it being used, and if you fear SR, you can stop it being set up, and easily get rid of it with a spinner if it did get set up, while with the idea of Lugia or Kyogre being legal, you can't stop them being used, and once they're there, they are neigh on impossible to get rid of.

 

[Nyara]

If banning Stealth Rock makes something else OP, we ban that thing, too, that is always how it worked, always, even, on the rules of the site of how should be the banning process it is clearly said that a cascade effect shouln't be a reason to not ban something. And, spikes is still there, flying Pokémon are weak to an excesive ammount of things already and nothing stops you from attacking. Anyway, if the Non-Stealths Rocks lader from that is because barely anyone takes too serious an almost non-used ladder (as it isn't mainstream nor very active and important to a community for being secundary).

Levitate Pokémon are a problem, but considering the huge ammount of new and good abilities, Levitate restrict you to just that inmunnity.

 

[Kibblecat]

Well, ideally, it must be nerfed, an ideally nerf could be make it stackable like spikes, 1/3 of damage with the first tile, 1/2 with the second, our current with the third. But if that isn't possible, in my opinion, it must be banned, and if we don't ban it, I don't see why we ban Lugia or Kyogre from OU, oh, yeah, because we don't want to see those always massive reward null risks mons being used on the 90%> of the teams and 100% of any minimal decent team. Difference with Stealth Rock? Nope, but people is used to it and have fear of the uncharted if that is removed (we're on an uncharted territory, anyway).

Yes, yes, I know that ubers exist, but the existance of ubers is just for the reason of making an "anything goes" tier than anything else.

No, really no. Ubers don't exist for the sake of a "trolololol lets have a trololololol" tier. They exist as a ban list for OU, in order to balance OU. Tiers are lists, not metagames in themselves. We just happen to name the meta games after them, because each so-called metagame is named after the highest tier allowed, hence the most prominent pokemon.

Tell me if I've misunderstood your argument, but I'm pretty sure that "fear of the unknown metagame without SR," isn't the reason rocks aren't banned, either. Especially since, as BROloom says, there is a ladder without SR.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

Nyara, if you've played the non stealth rocks ladder, you'll notice the massive problem with stuff like focus sash. The thing with stealth rocks question isn't just "is it omnipresent", it's "is it the lesser of two evils?". If the answer is that it's the lesser of two evils, then it needs to stay, if it's not the lesser of two evils, then you can make an argument for it being banned.

Also with SR, it can be on a team, but yet you can stop it being used, and if you fear SR, you can stop it being set up, and easily get rid of it with a spinner if it did get set up, while with the idea of Lugia or Kyogre being legal, you can't stop them being used, and once they're there, they are neigh on impossible to get rid of.

Focus Sash becomes a much more viable item when Stealth Rock is removed (as opposed to Alakazam being pretty much the only viable Focus Sash user), but I don't see it as overpowered by any means. Focus Sash by its nature only comes into play when a Pokemon is taking a hit that brings it from 100% HP to 1 HP.

Also, part of the reason you may be seeing so many people use Focus Sash in the "No Stealth Rock tier" is because the people playing there want to specifically try to play in a way that they normally wouldn't due to Stealth Rock, so Focus Sash is something most people think to experiment with it. If Stealth Rock was outright banned then I'm sure there would be a correction in usage.

So yes, Focus Sash would be an excellent item - perhaps the preferred item of frail revenge killers - much in the way that Leftovers is preferred by Walls and Life Orb is used by offensive Pokemon. But I certainly don't think Focus Sash would be anything close to overpowered in the way that Stealth Rock is.

 

[JamesOnyx]

I guess I'll stop lurking and state a couple things I find negative with the widespread use of SR.

1. Most of the time, 2 slots on a team are completely dedicated to SR and RS users (possibly Defog now with its new buff). That's at least 1/3 of your team, limiting your options when team building.
2. A lot of RS users are lackluster compared to the vast majority of competent SR users (Which is why you see Starmie so often).
3. The overall damage output of this move can be ridiculous at times. A 1-time use, constant, trap should not be "capable" of dealing more than 1-2 health bars over the period of the match (I say capable because if you allow it to deal that much damage, you're doing something wrong).
4. Certain types are extremely inhibited by SR. Certain mons which could otherwise shine don't get the chance to because of it (Shiruba's mention of Moltres is an excellent example). And in turn certain types are favored under SR, like Steel and Fighting for their key Rock resistances.
5. The learning curve and skill level for people just getting into competitive mons is set much higher because of SR (You can view this as a good or a bad thing, personal choice).
6. Obscene levels of usage (I don't believe I'll have to post the numbers since they've already been brought up enough in previous posts).
7. Unlike finding checks or counters against certain Pokemon, SR is a move that can only be removed by RS and Defog and can only be countered by Magic Bounce and Taunt. And in turn those moves and abilities can be countered themselves by Spin Blocking via ghost typing and etc. And then after removal most bulky teams find the time to set up SR again. I'd like to think we're playing Pokemon, not SR...

On the other hand there are some decent things about SR as well.

1. Helps guarantee some essential OHKOs and 2HKOs.
2. Isn't evaded by flyers/levitate users unlike spikes, guarantees damage upon switch in.
3. Keeps some dangerous Pokemon in check (although if they are seriously that dangerous without SR perhaps you should consider they might just have Ubers potential. And honestly, if you like the Pokemon enough just play with it in Ubers, it's not that big of a deal).
4. Makes people think twice about switching.
5. Lots of mind game opportunities open up with SR on the field.




Personally, I don't find that we should be discussing this just yet as the meta for Gen VI hasn't even started developing. But I find that Spikes, although less dangerous than SR, is far more balanced then the latter and helps to accomplish everything that SR does without completely destroying Fire/Flying and even Ice/Bug types, which don't need the extra punishment. It breaks sashes, still helps to guarantee certain KOs, the user has to play more carefully with them, and there are more checks and counters to it. But now that I have wasted more than an hour of my life disputing something that shouldn't be discussed about yet in the first place, I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[Ryker]

Jesus, I would rather see this thread closed than to hear anymore preaching from people who refuse to analyze the opposite side. If you're not going to give yourself a chance to change your mind, then don't post. WashedLaundry is the only one I've seen post who seems willing to do so.

Can we please return to the topic at hand of what can and can not get SR and what should and should not be using SR?

Christ, this is retarded.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

Jesus, I would rather see this thread closed than to hear anymore preaching from people who refuse to analyze the opposite side. If you're not going to give yourself a chance to change your mind, then don't post. WashedLaundry is the only one I've seen post who seems willing to do so.

Can we please return to the topic at hand of what can and can not get SR and what should and should not be using SR?

Christ, this is retarded.

Chill man. Debate is lively. Debate is good.

For what it's worth, it's not just this thread. Look through any number of threads on Smogon with the title "Stealth Rock" on it, and you'll see this type of heated debate always ensues. For about half of the Pokemon playing community Stealth Rock inspires that much passionate hate.

No one said you couldn't continue to discuss how Stealth Rock should be used in Gen 6!

But for us Smogon peasants, this is as good as place as any to share our views. It's not like we're allowed in the "official" rule changing discussions. So let us have our place to discuss.

So I suggest not shying away from debate. Embrace it! (And if you don't feel strongly either way, ignore it)

 

[BROloom]

Focus Sash becomes a much more viable item when Stealth Rock is removed (as opposed to Alakazam being pretty much the only viable Focus Sash user), but I don't see it as overpowered by any means. Focus Sash by its nature only comes into play when a Pokemon is taking a hit that brings it from 100% HP to 1 HP.

Also, part of the reason you may be seeing so many people use Focus Sash in the "No Stealth Rock tier" is because the people playing there want to specifically try to play in a way that they normally wouldn't due to Stealth Rock, so Focus Sash is something most people think to experiment with it. If Stealth Rock was outright banned then I'm sure there would be a correction in usage.

So yes, Focus Sash would be an excellent item - perhaps the preferred item of frail revenge killers - much in the way that Leftovers is preferred by Walls and Life Orb is used by offensive Pokemon. But I certainly don't think Focus Sash would be anything close to overpowered in the way that Stealth Rock is.

Focus sash is very much overpowered the way stealth rocks is. Think of it this way, there are a ton of pokemon that SR makes hard to use, well with Focus sash, it makes a ton of pokemon that shouldn't be viable, or ones which are viable but balanced in their ability to be OHKO, way more viable, or even vastly overpowered. Focus sash means pokemon that have the bulk to take two hits are pointless, as all those base stats that went into taking two hits, wasted, as other pokemon can achieve that bulk with one item. Also, killing SR pretty much kills stall more than it is being killed already.

Stealth rock is needed, and in an ideal world, I'd love it if stealth rocks could only do 12.5% max to ANY pokemon, even if they were bug/flying, because that brings balance to the pokemon that are getting screwed over, yet still allows stall to function and sashes/multiscale to be broken.

 

[Hydeous]

Banning Stealth Rock is arbitrary. You're drawing a line and saying "I want this move gone because it hurts something I don't want to be hurt. I want special treatment to make sure these Pokemon are not hurt."

Well yes, this is essentially how bans work.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

Focus sash is very much overpowered the way stealth rocks is. Think of it this way, there are a ton of pokemon that SR makes hard to use, well with Focus sash, it makes a ton of pokemon that shouldn't be viable, or ones which are viable but balanced in their ability to be OHKO, way more viable, or even vastly overpowered. Focus sash means pokemon that have the bulk to take two hits are pointless, as all those base stats that went into taking two hits, wasted, as other pokemon can achieve that bulk with one item. Also, killing SR pretty much kills stall more than it is being killed already.

Stealth rock is needed, and in an ideal world, I'd love it if stealth rocks could only do 12.5% max to ANY pokemon, even if they were bug/flying, because that brings balance to the pokemon that are getting screwed over, yet still allows stall to function and sashes/multiscale to be broken.

First of all, a Pokemon that is expected to usually be 2HKOed isn't much of a "wall" if you ask me. I'm pretty sure that people don't use walls with the thought in mind "I'm going to make an awesome defensive Pokemon that can survive 1 whole attack!"

As I said earlier, I see Focus Sash joining the likes of Leftovers and Life Orb as very popular items... but like Leftovers and Life Orb, I wouldn't put it in the class of overpowered. Simply very good.

In an ideal world, if Stealth Rock were nerfed "properly", I would have it do 1/16th damage (instead of 1/8th), with a cap of 1/4 damage against Pokemon that a weak to it (including Pokemon 4x weak to rock).

But since that's not reality, I think the better world is the one without Stealth Rock, as opposed to continuing the one in which it is absolutely omnipresent on every single turn of every single game in every single tier.

 

[JamesOnyx]

To try to help redirect the topic back where it's supposed to be, I think Empoleon will be a great user of SR this gen. It has access to both SR and Defog, has nice resistances to Rock/Fairy and immunity to Poison which could possibly see an increase in usage this gen, has decent bulk, has access to Defiant if Sticky Web becomes a thing, and already sees decent usage in UU.

Unfortunately for the guy, he has a weakness to 2 of the most common attacking types in the previous gen, Ground and Fighting and also Electric. But I think having the ability to both set up Rocks and remove them is going to be the game changer. I think Donphan is currently the only user of both SR and RS in OU at the moment (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) but Skarmory will have access to SR and Defog as well this gen so I'm interested in how things will turn out.

 

[BROloom]

First of all, a Pokemon that is expected to usually be 2HKOed isn't much of a "wall" if you ask me. I'm pretty sure that people don't use walls with the thought in mind "I'm going to make an awesome defensive Pokemon that can survive 1 whole attack!"

As I said earlier, I see Focus Sash joining the likes of Leftovers and Life Orb as very popular items... but like Leftovers and Life Orb, I wouldn't put it in the class of overpowered. Simply very good.

In an ideal world, if Stealth Rock were nerfed "properly", I would have it do 1/16th damage (instead of 1/8th), with a cap of 1/4 damage against Pokemon that a weak to it (including Pokemon 4x weak to rock).

But since that's not reality, I think the better world is the one without Stealth Rock, as opposed to continuing the one in which it is absolutely omnipresent on every single turn of every single game in every single tier.

Please... please tell me where I used the word "wall". Go ahead.

You can't? That's what I thought. Okay, now, pokemon that have reduced attacking stats, often have decent bulk, allowing them to take a couple hits, while being decently powered sweepers. That's not a "wall", that's called bulky offence. The reason they are used, is because they can take a hit, while still doing great damage. Then there are glass canons, they have higher attacking stats, but can't take a hit to anything really, or they die. Now, when you give the glass canon a focus sash, it now can take two hits like the first type of pokemon, all while dishing out more damage and being faster, making the first type of pokemon, way less useful, making more pokemon less outclassed than SR makes less usable.

There is a reason most Alakazam run focus sash, because the item is so damn useful when you don't worry about entry hazard. Also, if everything is focus sashed, choice scarfers become much less useful, as they can't revenge kill, they can only hit, leave at one HP, and the likely die. Again, showing how focus sash would ruin the competitive scene more than SR does.

Oh and I still think SR have a max damage % cap is far more useful, as your idea makes it way less useful for stall.