You forget Banded HugePower Stab Play Rough....
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Pokémon Chesnaught (Revamp Occurring)
- Thread starter Psylink
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You forget Banded HugePower Stab Play Rough....
I said Choice Band Locked Azumarill. I should clarify and say Aqua Jet or Waterfall locked. Obviously you wouldn't switch Chesnaught in on Play Rough locked Azumarill. But I'll update the post with the calcs.
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Nope that was my bad i skimmed over locked
There were a few belly drum calcs as well, but I think we get what you mean. This thing takes hits really well. Been loving mine on showdown even though I can't seem to run bulletproof anymore.
This is assuming Chesnaught becomes a big enough issue for him to even run wave over bomb. Remember that teams will likely have many other pokemon. Even if they don't run psychic or sludge wave or dazzling gleam, there are many other threats that can be used to counter chesnaught as well.
The biggest advantage to him, in my opinion, is his ability to wall specific things. Much like any set-up based pokemon, you want to find time to set up. Chesnaught gets a few advantages, as he can switch in on anything he either resists (Rock / Ground / water / dark are fairly common), then set up either Leech seed / Spikes / Bulk up / Substitute on the switch. Spikes and leech seed are useful since they will have impact and benefit your team / whatever you switch in. Substitute lets you get a guaranteed something off if you sub on the switch. Finally, Bulk up is a good option and he can possibly sweep if you're sure you've killed off any special threats or heavy hitting flying moves.
My CHesnaught is a bit different from ones here. He fully capitalizes on his physical bulk.
(Lax Nature(Yeah yeah, but he is my starter and I love him, and he shrugs off all physical hits) Leftovers)
Leech Seed
Spiky Shield
Power Up Punch
Seed Bomb
252 in HP and Defense, rest in Attack.
If you are a physical attacker, you are hard pressed to get passed this guys defense. Power Up Punch I like because it slowly boosts his power as he hides behind Leftovers, leech Seed, and Spike Shield. However, a Poison or flying type completely walls him... But I think the pay off of being a complete physical wall helps. He even takes 4x SE flying attacks decently... not great, but decently. Enough that he could get a leech seed off then a Spiky Shield before he needs to switch.
(Lax Nature(Yeah yeah, but he is my starter and I love him, and he shrugs off all physical hits) Leftovers)
Leech Seed
Spiky Shield
Power Up Punch
Seed Bomb
252 in HP and Defense, rest in Attack.
If you are a physical attacker, you are hard pressed to get passed this guys defense. Power Up Punch I like because it slowly boosts his power as he hides behind Leftovers, leech Seed, and Spike Shield. However, a Poison or flying type completely walls him... But I think the pay off of being a complete physical wall helps. He even takes 4x SE flying attacks decently... not great, but decently. Enough that he could get a leech seed off then a Spiky Shield before he needs to switch.
From a pure defensive perspective I have to say that Chestnaught faces some competition with Tangrowth.
Dark and Rock are not really that common, so I'm quite unsure whether the potential to wall off 2 additional damage types is worth the danger of getting blasted by Psychic and x4 Flying moves. While Tangrowth doesn't like Flying moves either (and special moves in general, but that's a trait both Pokemon share), he can at least take them, and do something in return, like Leech Seed / Sleep Powder and then switch out with Regenerator.
Besides, Tangrowth can wall those Dark and Rock moves decent enough if it absolutely has to do the switch-in:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 151-178 (37.46 - 44.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.93 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 196-231 (48.63 - 57.32%) -- 46.88% chance to 2HKO
The neutrality to U-turn Chesnaught has might come really handy, though, but the only threatening U-turn user in OU is Scizor (who only does 60 % to Tangrowth with CB). Crobat would rather Brave Bird anyways. Other than that, some other scary Bug types include Scolipede and Heracross (while I'm kinda positive that Heracross won't survive in this meta, given the abundance of Talonflames)
252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-157 (35 - 41.31%) -- 77.71% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 265-312 (65.75 - 77.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
hm, yeah, that again looks very good for Chesnaught
Dark and Rock are not really that common, so I'm quite unsure whether the potential to wall off 2 additional damage types is worth the danger of getting blasted by Psychic and x4 Flying moves. While Tangrowth doesn't like Flying moves either (and special moves in general, but that's a trait both Pokemon share), he can at least take them, and do something in return, like Leech Seed / Sleep Powder and then switch out with Regenerator.
Besides, Tangrowth can wall those Dark and Rock moves decent enough if it absolutely has to do the switch-in:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 151-178 (37.46 - 44.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.93 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 196-231 (48.63 - 57.32%) -- 46.88% chance to 2HKO
The neutrality to U-turn Chesnaught has might come really handy, though, but the only threatening U-turn user in OU is Scizor (who only does 60 % to Tangrowth with CB). Crobat would rather Brave Bird anyways. Other than that, some other scary Bug types include Scolipede and Heracross (while I'm kinda positive that Heracross won't survive in this meta, given the abundance of Talonflames)
252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-157 (35 - 41.31%) -- 77.71% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 265-312 (65.75 - 77.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
hm, yeah, that again looks very good for Chesnaught
Yeah, but CHesnaught gets Spiky Shield, which Aids in his Walling capabilities quite well. Sure, Tengagrowth my have less weaknesses, but I think Chesnaught is a good Defensive pokemon.
Yeah Fighting got screwed with the weakness to fairy... I wonder why they made fighting weak to Fairy... I guess they wanted to give them a third weakness, but I'm trying to think logically how a fighter is weak to a fairy.
FIghting is resistant to ROck.
Hmm. yeah that makes sense.
Erm, yeah, that's what I said, I was commenting on Neab's "Dark and Rock are not really that common" comment.
EDIT:Oh, I re-read my comment, it does seem like I was confused on whether fighting resists rock. No, I was saying that I can't remember how common rock attacks were, and to my memory, they are pretty common.
A big thing that tangrowth doesnt have though is a fighting stab. It may seem like a minor thing, but it helps get past steel types and dark types more easily and causes a lot more switches that chesnaught can abuse with spikey shield and leech seed. Tangrowth alsohas a huge weakness to sludge bomb that isnt at all threatening to chesnaught. Both will likely see minimal OU usage though and fill slightly different roles in the tiers they fall into. Chesnaught also runs better boosting sets although i think the maindraw of these two pokemon are their denfesive capabilities. Personally, every team I run that could use a grass type will be getting a chesnaught (tier permitting of course).
Which boosting move do you run? Like I said, I run Power up punch, and it seems to be making my Chesnaught into a very powerful beefy tank. Takes a few turns to get going though, but thanks top leech seed, leftovers, and spiky shield, he tends to live a lot.
And like you said, both pokemon fill different roles.
Tangrowth has a couple of nice traits: Regenerator, STAB Power Whip, Knock Off, and no 4x weakness to flying. Although neutrality to fairy and psychic is nice, they are mostly special attacks. Tangrowth could never stay in on a special attack with it's base 50 special defence. Outside of knock off, it really can't do much once the opponent switches out to a pokemon that threatens tangrowth. Chesnaught can actually lay down spikes as the opponent switches out to something that threatens Chesnaught, keeping the opponent under pressure to switch out to their spinner/defogger. Resistance to rock and dark, especially resistance to stealth rock helps it switch-in more comfortably to help fill it's role as a defensive pivot/spiker. Bulletproof is the icing on the cake as it provides even more opportunities to switch in on things that Tangrowth could ever dream about such as Sludge Bomb M. Venusaur, and proceed to lay down spikes.
Of note regarding Scizor's U-turn:
Chesnaught:
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def (custom): 118-141 (31.05 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Tangrowth:
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 234-276 (57.92 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The problem is that Defog is a thing now and most of the popular Defog users are Flying type who don't care about Spikes anyways.
Chesnaught can't threaten those with neither Grass nor Fighting type moves so he can either Leech Seed or risk a Taunt or x4 Brave Bird from Crobat / Skarmory. So what will happen is that you have to switch out and lose momentum. In the worst case Skarmory sets up a new Stealth Rock and you're immediately at disadvantage again.
While it is true that Venusaur beats out Tangrowth, there isn't much of a reason to switch in Chesnaught either, because M-Venusaur will wall you just as good.
Besides, Chesnaught will certainly get more damage from Venusaurs Grass type moves coming from a 120-something SpA against Chesnaughts average ~75 SDef. Ok, maybe not since Chesnaught will have lefties and M-Venusaur not, but even then you'll get just one measly layer of Spikes of while the opponent switches to one of his counters which also brings up the problem of Defog and its users again.
That's not a valid argument, since you won't ever switch Tangrowth into a CB Scizor, and even if CB Scizor switches into Tangrowth, he'll just Leech Seed whatever comes in with U-Turn (hopefully no Grass type, and of course only if you know it's "just" a CB set), gets leftovers+seed recovery back, switches out with Regenerator and is almost at full health again.
Chesnaught can't threaten those with neither Grass nor Fighting type moves so he can either Leech Seed or risk a Taunt or x4 Brave Bird from Crobat / Skarmory. So what will happen is that you have to switch out and lose momentum. In the worst case Skarmory sets up a new Stealth Rock and you're immediately at disadvantage again.
While it is true that Venusaur beats out Tangrowth, there isn't much of a reason to switch in Chesnaught either, because M-Venusaur will wall you just as good.
Besides, Chesnaught will certainly get more damage from Venusaurs Grass type moves coming from a 120-something SpA against Chesnaughts average ~75 SDef. Ok, maybe not since Chesnaught will have lefties and M-Venusaur not, but even then you'll get just one measly layer of Spikes of while the opponent switches to one of his counters which also brings up the problem of Defog and its users again.
That's not a valid argument, since you won't ever switch Tangrowth into a CB Scizor, and even if CB Scizor switches into Tangrowth, he'll just Leech Seed whatever comes in with U-Turn (hopefully no Grass type, and of course only if you know it's "just" a CB set), gets leftovers+seed recovery back, switches out with Regenerator and is almost at full health again.
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Really....
252+ SpA (custom) Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 98-116 (25.78 - 30.52%) -- possible 4HKO
(Taking into account 90 BP and 122 base SpAtk)
EDIT: Bulletproof makes Chesnaught immune to Energy ball, my bad
The set I have in mind is the following:
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Roar
- Seed Bomb
Even in sandstorm, synthesis + leftovers brings it back up to full health. And stealth rock support is a MUST to handle flying pokemon users, but your argument is basically saying the if a team has at least one defogger there is no possibility of using spikes. Yes, defog is a problem for any spike user, but it's nothing unique to Chesnaught that only he has to handle. Ferrothorn would have the same issues as Chesnaught as dedicated spike user, but that doesn't make Chesnaught any less viable than Ferrothorn even as a pure spike setter. Every team nowadays has to have ways to handle defog users, and there can be other members of your team dedicated for that, but a spiker is not meant to take out defog users.
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Does energy ball hit it at all? I was under the impression that energy ball was blocked by bulletproof.
Oh you are right! Bulletproof does block Energy Ball!
Has anyone considered running Rocky Helmet on him? My thoughts on this set would be using Leech Seed, Spiny Shield, Power Up Punch, and Wood Hammer. You would start by throwing out Leech Seed then either using PUP or Spiny Shield. My only question is, would the Rocky Helmet damage Stack with Spiny Shield like the Rocky Helmet and Iron Barbs set?
I must say so far my Chesnaught has be doing quite well in Link battles. Having Bulletproof would improve him, but he's still pretty good without it. He walls pretty much any physical attack, and even takes 4x SE physical Flying attacks decently. He will get 2HKOed, instead of OHKOed. That nlets him get a Leech Seed up, and then stall 1 turn with spiky Shield and get 2 turns of Leftovers and Leech seed health back before he needs to switch.
If he is fighting any physical pokemon without a flying attack, he can stall pretty damn well with Leech Seed, leftovers, his 252 in HP and Defense and Def+ nature, and Spiky Shield. Once Leech Seed is up, I alternate between Power up Punch and Spiky Shield, though sometimes I switch it up if I know the user has a buffing move.
I was fighting a Scizor that got 2 sword dances in while I punched it. I assumed it might go for a third, but it used U-turn, and CHesnaught still shrugged off the attack quite well(only did 1/3rd damage or so)
And Against Poison types, who I hit NVE, CHesnaught's bulk let's him live. At least against the physical Poison types. Sure I am not hitting hard, but the Leech seed and leftovers mostly make up the health lost.
If he is fighting any physical pokemon without a flying attack, he can stall pretty damn well with Leech Seed, leftovers, his 252 in HP and Defense and Def+ nature, and Spiky Shield. Once Leech Seed is up, I alternate between Power up Punch and Spiky Shield, though sometimes I switch it up if I know the user has a buffing move.
I was fighting a Scizor that got 2 sword dances in while I punched it. I assumed it might go for a third, but it used U-turn, and CHesnaught still shrugged off the attack quite well(only did 1/3rd damage or so)
And Against Poison types, who I hit NVE, CHesnaught's bulk let's him live. At least against the physical Poison types. Sure I am not hitting hard, but the Leech seed and leftovers mostly make up the health lost.
I'm not so sure that your findings are reliable if you're facing opponents that U-turn after setting up +4 attack on a Scizor.
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