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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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There's actually 2 more counters now, since Azumarill also resists both its STABs and can kill it with Aqua Jet. Azumarill will also see more use now that BD+AJ is now legal and the Drought nerf means that Flare Blitzes won't hit quite as hard.
That still might not keep Blaziken from being banned, but it certainly helps keep it in check.
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The same EVs as for Swords Dance set. With enough Speed EVs to outspeed base 100. I don't think he needs more, as you'll be using Brave Bird in 80% of cases. And he needs as much power as possible, so it's better to stick with Adamant.
So a 132 EV investment into an Adamant Talonflame will let it outspeed base 100's?
Ok, I see. How viable is a more bulky set, say
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Gale Wings
Adamant 252 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Def, SpD, or Spe
-Bulk-Up / Swords Dance
-Roost
-Flare Blitz
-Brave Bird
?
I would say it's perfectly viable. I would, however, add enough speed to outrun jolly Excadrill at least so you can hit it with flare blitz. That requires 60 speed EVs. I'm not really sure if there's any other mons you really need to outspeed right now... are people even using max+ Jirachi right now outside of scarf sets? I feel like 329 speed isn't even necessary for Talonflame in the current metagame. But I might be forgetting some things in between so I'm not sure what the optimal EV spread is right now.
EDIT: I guess Thundurus is a thing, so you could pump in enough to outspeed Thundy-T, but regular Thundurus requires jolly to outspeed.
For Talonflame with Brave Bird, I'd slash a few items that could work: Sky Plate, Liechi Berry, Lum Berry, or Leftovers. Brave Bird partnered with Flare Blitz takes a toll on it's HP, so Liechi Berry could see some cool use over Flying Gem for an additional attack boost. Sky Plate, while not giving Brave Bird the boost of a Flying Gem, gives you a consistently boosted Flying STAB, which is certainly worth testing out (I know I am). Leftovers helps regenerate loss health from recoil and Lum Berry allows you to set up on more stall oriented teams with Toxic / Thunder Wave.
Talonflame is really scary to face, I must admit. There aren't many "surefire" counters to it, and it's almost a waste not to use it if you're running offense due to having the strongest Priority move in the game (and the best typing; I mean, Flying Priority with base 120 power STAB at +2 is really hard to wall, and the priority just makes it really, er, broken). Thankfully, there are a FEW surefire counters I've been testing. Tyranitar can switch with impunity since it's one of the only Pokemon that resist both of it's STABs.
After that, it's mostly checks (like CB Azu can tank a Brave Bird, Scarf Excadrill can outspeed Flare Blitz and OHKO with Rock Slide, etc.).
Talonflame is really scary to face, I must admit. There aren't many "surefire" counters to it, and it's almost a waste not to use it if you're running offense due to having the strongest Priority move in the game (and the best typing; I mean, Flying Priority with base 120 power STAB at +2 is really hard to wall, and the priority just makes it really, er, broken). Thankfully, there are a FEW surefire counters I've been testing. Tyranitar can switch with impunity since it's one of the only Pokemon that resist both of it's STABs.
After that, it's mostly checks (like CB Azu can tank a Brave Bird, Scarf Excadrill can outspeed Flare Blitz and OHKO with Rock Slide, etc.).
Yeah, this thing has been a lot of fun to use. Just being able to Brave Bird everything is really fun. Been using it with Ttar and Mega Chomp and they really pressure just about everything you could think of. Main problem for them is switching into Water-types, but that's what the rest of the team is for. I just run Choice Band on it since I'm using Brave Bird most of the time anyway.
For a physical pokemon, having priority and being immune to burns is nice. We've had a lot of fire types over the past generations but not too many physical ones. Talonflame has a unique niche being the fastest fire type with access to a priority move. This will give it a unique niche in the new meta. However he needs to find a way of getting past heatran and and Scarf T-tar, or he may drop to UU.
Scarf T-tar?
+2 252+ Atk Sky Plate (custom) Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 174-204 (50.87 - 59.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Is Adamant, 252 Spe overkill on speed? I can't seem to decide how much speed is enough or too much. :s
Max Adamant Speed is enough to outspeed all positive 110 base Pokemon (at level 100, at 50 he speed ties). If you ask me - overkill. 60 Speed is enough to outspeed max speed Jolly Excadrill and IMO this is enough - I don't see that many Jirachi around, but if you want to be safe go with 164 Speed EVs to outspeed Positive 100 base.
So basically, tailor your speed EVs to the fastest thing you'd rather use Flare Blitz against? (in your example, Excadrill)
Sounds a lot better than max speed, hopefully Talonflame doesn't speed creep itself. o_O
Yep, exactly. Just look for a target which you can't KO right away with Brave Bird, but with Flare Blitz and work on it. I wouldn't recommend it (because it is a speed creep), but you may invest 168 Speed EVs to outspeed 164 Speed versions. This way you'll avoid speed creep, lol, because in 90% of cases this is speed benchmark everyone will aim for with Talonflame (or the one for Excadrill).
Just be cautious of Mega Absol as they are most likely running max speed and WILL out-prioritize Brave Bird vs Sucker Punch.
How well would MegaAmpharos work as a counter to Talonflame? I know it's kind of a bad idea to dedicate the mega-slot just to counter Talonflame, but obviously MegaAmpharos will have other uses as wall-breakers and such.
Bulk-wise, Mega-Ampharos has pretty much the exact same base-stat as Heatran. It resists both of Talonflame's STAB.
But unlike Heatran, Ampharos can easily threaten back with STAB Thunderbolt or Power Gem (if it somehow finds a way into its moveset).
Bulk-wise, Mega-Ampharos has pretty much the exact same base-stat as Heatran. It resists both of Talonflame's STAB.
But unlike Heatran, Ampharos can easily threaten back with STAB Thunderbolt or Power Gem (if it somehow finds a way into its moveset).
Since everyone is just mentioning random counters, try Tyrantrum.
4x resistance to Flare Blitz, 2x resistance to everything not names Steel Wing. The best Talonflame can do is Will-O-Wisp or U-turn.
4x resistance to Flare Blitz, 2x resistance to everything not names Steel Wing. The best Talonflame can do is Will-O-Wisp or U-turn.
I see all this talk of Heatran countering Talonflame, but what exactly can Heatran do? I'm saying this coming from a match where my TFlame pulled off a victory from a 1-4 situation, and guess what - I set up on my opponent's Heatran.
I got to +6 as my opponent spammed HP Ice (which didn't 3HKO), and I proceeded to sweep him.*
In other words, Heatran's most common set is Fire STAB/Earth Power/HP Ice, all of which do jack shit to Talonflame.
On another note, I'm thinking of using U-Turn Talonflame + Dugtrio. Apparently Talonflame's counters are as follows:
a) Rock types (bar Terrakion)
b) Heatran
Both of which are easily trapped and removed by Duggy's STAB EQ. Not only that, pair it up with Staraptor who can lure out and dent Flying-resists, and I see a core with some good potential (and you still have three team slots to play with).
* Acrobatics >>> Brave Bird
I got to +6 as my opponent spammed HP Ice (which didn't 3HKO), and I proceeded to sweep him.*
In other words, Heatran's most common set is Fire STAB/Earth Power/HP Ice, all of which do jack shit to Talonflame.
On another note, I'm thinking of using U-Turn Talonflame + Dugtrio. Apparently Talonflame's counters are as follows:
a) Rock types (bar Terrakion)
b) Heatran
Both of which are easily trapped and removed by Duggy's STAB EQ. Not only that, pair it up with Staraptor who can lure out and dent Flying-resists, and I see a core with some good potential (and you still have three team slots to play with).
* Acrobatics >>> Brave Bird
Just mentioning this... but my +2 Brave Bird Sky Plate (JOLLY) Talonflame did 55% to Lefties Heatran (I say lefties because I don't know if it was 252 Hp or not, but regardless, after SR, Talonflame can 2HKO Heatran wtf is this?).
Still I do agree that Heatran can properly check Talonflame, especially if it Earth Powers as it roosts. Heatran is not a rock-type though, the post you quoted asked you to name other viable rock types in OU beside Tyranitar (and Terrakion, since that is still somewhat viable, although it isn't the best answer to Talonflame).
Still I do agree that Heatran can properly check Talonflame, especially if it Earth Powers as it roosts. Heatran is not a rock-type though, the post you quoted asked you to name other viable rock types in OU beside Tyranitar (and Terrakion, since that is still somewhat viable, although it isn't the best answer to Talonflame).
If you want heatran to be your talonflame counter I think you need to force it to find room for Ancient Power (or HP Rock for more PP), and use something else as your SR pokemon. Even Modest Choice Specs HP Electric only does 84.3 - 99.41% to 252 HP Talonflame, so your heatran might end up getting hit 2 or 3 times depending on the nature of the switch in. HP Rock or Ancient Power is the way to go.
Lanturn could be a very good answer to Talonflame. I always thought that Lanturn is one of the Pokemon, which have pretty interesting niche in OU taking into account his really unique typing and ability to check Thundurus-T + Bulky Waters (and some Electric and Grass types as well, if they run Grass Knot, as Lanturn only takes base 40 damage from GK). I made quick calc to check if it's capable of doing this with standard builds (so he doesn't loose his niche in countering some special attackers). Flying Gem is still not possible to find, so I checked calc with Brave Bird.
Standard UU Tank Lanturn vs...
+2 Adamant Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird
54.70%-64.60%
Oh wow, he actually is, at least against Brave Bird versions. Although this still hurts. With Flare Blitz it will look the same.
Standard UU Tank Lanturn vs...
+2 Adamant Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird
54.70%-64.60%
Oh wow, he actually is, at least against Brave Bird versions. Although this still hurts. With Flare Blitz it will look the same.
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+2 252+ Atk Sky Plate (custom) (Move 1) vs. 24 HP / 0 Def (custom): 167-197 (57.38 - 67.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can't set up on talonflame, because if you do and talonflame predicts it, you lose. (I used 24 HP/252+ atk/232 speed on barbaracle, since that was what let him hit the highest speed tier he could without a +speed nature. but even at 252/0 he still has a nearly 90% chance of being 2hkod (assured with SR)). Unless he gets aqua jet, but I didn't see it listed in the research thread. Also seems a bit of a waste on a shell smasher.
Also applies to acrobatics variants if SR is up/flying gem is unused:
+2 252+ Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 24 HP / 0 Def (custom): 127-150 (43.64 - 51.54%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO
I've been using Max HP Rotom-W, which easily take any hit it can dish out and KO back with Hydro Pump or Thunderbolt. Rotom-H should work in the same way, but in this case you better keep SR off the field (ok, you can safely switch in once even with SR as long as you invested 252 EVs in HP). Tyranitar of course works the same, but dislike taking U-Turns all day long. Tyrantrum should also work for this. Also someone mentioned Lanturn, and it works. Rhyperior is ok as well, as there is nothing Talonflame can do to you and if you use Choice Band on him - it gives you free hit on switch, which is scary coming from Pokemon with such high attack. If you use Heatran with HP Rock/AncientPower - he also counters Talonflame pretty well.
I think you may use one of those and you'll be fine. All mentioned by me picks have some other niche outside of countering/checking Fire Hawk, so it's not like you sacrifice one moveslot on your team just to handle Talonflame. They all have some good uses outside of countering/checking Talonflame as well.
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