Pokémon Greninja

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Quick question, what sort of EV spread would you run for Greninja on a team with Sticky Web support? I've seen a lot of discussion about not running full speed EVs, is that even more relevant with SW?
 
Tarnag said:
Quick question, what sort of EV spread would you run for Greninja on a team with Sticky Web support? I've seen a lot of discussion about not running full speed EVs, is that even more relevant with SW?
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You shouldn't lower your Speed EV's cause you have no guarantee that Sticky Web will be up 100% of the time.
 
crazy_man said:
You shouldn't lower your Speed EV's cause you have no guarantee that Sticky Web will be up 100% of the time.
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Okay, even with a positive nature? I read somewhere (possibly in this thread) that with 244 you out speed everything except other Greninja
 
Tarnag said:
Okay, even with a positive nature? I read somewhere (possibly in this thread) that with 244 you out speed everything except other Greninja
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Well, some peope are saying that full Special Atttack and Speed is not really needed, which gives you more EVs for Attack. That really depends if you want more damage with a Physical Move. Even wth only 244 Speed EVs, you should still run Naive or Hasty.
 
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Tarnag said:
Okay, even with a positive nature? I read somewhere (possibly in this thread) that with 244 you out speed everything except other Greninja
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Magicfire said:
Well, some peope are saying that full Special Atttack and Speed is not really needed, which gives you more EVs for Attack. That really depends if you wan more damage with a Physical Move. Even wth only 244 Speed EVs, you should still run Naive or Hasty.
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If you run Sticky Web, then 244 speed is fine. Trust me, I know from experience (Been running 96 Atk, 168 SpAtk, 244 Speed for the past week on Showdown.) that you'll still be outspeeding anything that is effected by it.
 
VCrowe said:
If you run Sticky Web, then 244 speed is fine. Trust me, I know from experience (Been running 96 Atk, 168 SpAtk, 244 Speed for the past week on Showdown.) that you'll still be outspeeding anything that is effected by it.
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What set are you usin VCrowe? I've been using full Special Attack and Speed and I don't have Sticky Web. The positive nature is needed though for Tarnag's question.
 
Magicfire said:
What set are you usin VCrowe? I've been using full Special Attack and Speed and I don't have Sticky Web. The positive nature is needed though for Tarnag's question.
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Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Nature: Hasty/Naive
EV's: 96 Atk, 168 SpAtk, 244 Spe
- U Turn/Shadow Sneak
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- HP Fire

I've posted this set quite a few times here. I recommend using this set on a very hazard heavy team, if you do use it, because while the given EV spread allows you to OHKO and 2HKO many various threats, hazard support can turn some key 2HKO's into OHKO's.
The choice between U Turn and Shadow Sneak is really just preference, however I believe that U Turn is the much better option.

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 811-957 (212.86 - 251.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 406-478 (145.51 - 171.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 179-213 (65.8 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93.35 - 109.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Celebi: 421-499 (123.46 - 146.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Aoi_IX said:
I'm testing out a physical sweeper build, since its phys attack is just slightly lower than his special one. Besides, he has access to Power-up Punch, which is his only "increase stats" move, it is like a Howl but with 60 base attack (including STAB), not bad at all.

Greninja @ Flying Gem
Protean/Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Rock Slide
Acrobatics
Power-up Punch
Shadow Sneak

I know, I know. No WATER of DARK moves?? But well, why would I, after all, greninja is the type he wants to be, so is not attained to have certain attacks for "stab"... they all have stab. Waterfall may have 5 more attack that Rock Slide, but rock has more super effective targets than water. This is why I choosed each attack:
- Rock Slide: A lot of coverage, it kills flyers, fire, ice and bugs. Is a nice way to OHKO Talonflame, which is running rampant online. I'd have prefered Stone Edge, but too bad he doesn't learn it.
- Acrobatics: The best move in the entire set. Flying Gem will allow for some OHKO, and after that is still a really strong move. Is the one I abuse the most for serious damage.
- Power-up Punch: Its only way to increase stats. Two of them will make him ready to sweep a lot. Not sure if this can OHKO Lucario (I guess it will if it is not mega), but at least you will deal really severe damage against it, and it can 2HKO anything that you're super effective against. Using this as a revenge-killing grants free attack for the next combat.
- Shadow Sneak: Revenge-kill move if the opponent has priority, or if you predict a fighting move going against you, you can get a free hit, and your opponent will deal none to you. Having both ghost and fighting in the same build allows for an extra power-up punch to increase more your attack while playing mindgames with your opponent.

That's it, I want a competitive set, but also I feel this one feels the most ninja out there (just the added value). That is, two nice attacking moves, and two utility ones. I'm still not sold on the special attacker one, because he is missing the buffs that a physical sweeper can give.
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Problem one: You made a physical set, when everyone has pretty much agreed a physical set is inferior to a special set
Problem two: You made a physical set without U-Turn? And included Shadow Sneak? Why? Defensive games with Greninja are not worth it.
Problem three: No calcs on PUP vs Lucario and claiming it'll do enough? I dunno man. I'd like to see where this nets you against lucario without getting in prior PUPs before lucario switches in.
 
I'm actually not using either U-Turn or Shadow Sneak so I'm doing max Speed and max Special Attack. Special Attack could be lowered a bit but I believe max Speed is really too important. Those calculations look good though.
 
AccidentalGreed said:
You can think about it another way: What the heck is twelve extra HP or defense EVs gonna benefit for Greninja?

Max Speed or bust.
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With Speed, you can say "I outspeed this, this, and this", and you know your limitations. What you'll never know is how many Sp. Attack EVs you'll need to KO Polemon X with Move Y after two turns of burn damage and a Rotom-W Volt Switch, because the situation isn't going to play out the exact same way each time. But of course you still have to get the KO, or you die (hurray for glass cannons!). So I always run max Sp. Attack on Greninja, and I've yet to regret it. Maybe my U-Turns don't hurt quite as much as they could, but that's a small price for not losing a match because of lack of power on Ice Beam.
 
Aoi_IX said:
I know, I know. No WATER of DARK moves?? But well, why would I, after all, greninja is the type he wants to be, so is not attained to have certain attacks for "stab"... they all have stab.
Click to expand...

I was actually thinking about this earlier today myself; in theory, you're right, there's not really any reason to necessarily restrict Greninja to its STABs. However, in looking at his stat spread and movepool, it actually makes sense-- Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse are some of the strongest moves it gets in its movepool (factoring in its base stats and assuming max investment either way-- Hydro Pump coming off of Greninja's Special Attack is just flat out stronger than Waterfall off of its Attack).

In short, it DOES make sense that most sets run these, even factoring the omni-STAB benefits of Protean-- those are just his most powerful moves.
As for physical sets, I suppose P-up Punch could have its benefits, although Greninja's fragility doesn't help much with that unless you can revenge something. Acrobatics seems fine, but Rock Slide and Shadow Sneak are too weak to bother with, IMO. Water Shuriken is a good priority move in general to use on a set like this, and then you probably need Night Slash or something for coverage (U-turn as mentioned is also good).

Yeah it's worth mentioning that Greninja TECHNICALLY can boost on the physical side of things with PUP but I think given how fragile it is it's just better to go entirely or primarily Special.
 
Aoi_IX said:
I'm testing out a physical sweeper build, since its phys attack is just slightly lower than his special one. Besides, he has access to Power-up Punch, which is his only "increase stats" move, it is like a Howl but with 60 base attack (including STAB), not bad at all.

Greninja @ Flying Gem
Protean/Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Rock Slide
Acrobatics
Power-up Punch
Shadow Sneak

I know, I know. No WATER of DARK moves?? But well, why would I, after all, greninja is the type he wants to be, so is not attained to have certain attacks for "stab"... they all have stab. Waterfall may have 5 more attack that Rock Slide, but rock has more super effective targets than water. This is why I choosed each attack:
- Rock Slide: A lot of coverage, it kills flyers, fire, ice and bugs. Is a nice way to OHKO Talonflame, which is running rampant online. I'd have prefered Stone Edge, but too bad he doesn't learn it.
- Acrobatics: The best move in the entire set. Flying Gem will allow for some OHKO, and after that is still a really strong move. Is the one I abuse the most for serious damage.
- Power-up Punch: Its only way to increase stats. Two of them will make him ready to sweep a lot. Not sure if this can OHKO Lucario (I guess it will if it is not mega), but at least you will deal really severe damage against it, and it can 2HKO anything that you're super effective against. Using this as a revenge-killing grants free attack for the next combat.
- Shadow Sneak: Revenge-kill move if the opponent has priority, or if you predict a fighting move going against you, you can get a free hit, and your opponent will deal none to you. Having both ghost and fighting in the same build allows for an extra power-up punch to increase more your attack while playing mindgames with your opponent.

That's it, I want a competitive set, but also I feel this one feels the most ninja out there (just the added value). That is, two nice attacking moves, and two utility ones. I'm still not sold on the special attacker one, because he is missing the buffs that a physical sweeper can give.
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this is an awesome set, but I think it would be a little more effective with a fighting gem
 
Olly said:
What sort of OHKO's or 2 hit KO's are missed by running Surf over Hydro Pump?
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This is relevant. Has anyone done the proper calculations?

Hydro Pump vs Surf is not the same as Fire Blast vs Flamethrower, that extra 5% chance to miss makes Hydro Pump much less desirable, specially after the special moves power nerf... Unless, of course, Hydro Pump is vital in securing certain OHKOs/2HKOs.

I admit I haven't done the calculations myself, but precisely because of that, I'm using Surf instead of Hydro Pump, as reliability is a real concern on something that will often simply die if the move misses.
 
CarnivorouSwarm said:
Problem one: You made a physical set, when everyone has pretty much agreed a physical set is inferior to a special set
Problem two: You made a physical set without U-Turn? And included Shadow Sneak? Why? Defensive games with Greninja are not worth it.
Problem three: No calcs on PUP vs Lucario and claiming it'll do enough? I dunno man. I'd like to see where this nets you against lucario without getting in prior PUPs before lucario switches in.
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Well, I'm of those people who likes to make different things (like annoyer froslass instead of the spike/taunt one... that was thunder wave, confuse ray, ice fang and destiny bond, lol pretty fun set), but if my idea happens to not be so good, I go back to square one and try something else. There is no gain about posting a pokemon's moveset that the community already accepted, so this is why I wanted feedback for this one :)

I guess you're right about being defensive is not that nice in greninja, is pretty fragile indeed. I'm going for U-Turn instead of Shadow Sneak, and the part of the calcs, I'm still not used to do that, so I dunno what's the formula, hahah. If you could help me out with it, I'd be grateful :D

Banryu said:
I was actually thinking about this earlier today myself; in theory, you're right, there's not really any reason to necessarily restrict Greninja to its STABs. However, in looking at his stat spread and movepool, it actually makes sense-- Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse are some of the strongest moves it gets in its movepool (factoring in its base stats and assuming max investment either way-- Hydro Pump coming off of Greninja's Special Attack is just flat out stronger than Waterfall off of its Attack).

In short, it DOES make sense that most sets run these, even factoring the omni-STAB benefits of Protean-- those are just his most powerful moves.
As for physical sets, I suppose P-up Punch could have its benefits, although Greninja's fragility doesn't help much with that unless you can revenge something. Acrobatics seems fine, but Rock Slide and Shadow Sneak are too weak to bother with, IMO. Water Shuriken is a good priority move in general to use on a set like this, and then you probably need Night Slash or something for coverage (U-turn as mentioned is also good).

Yeah it's worth mentioning that Greninja TECHNICALLY can boost on the physical side of things with PUP but I think given how fragile it is it's just better to go entirely or primarily Special.
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Yep, the idea is to, either revenge kill or 2HKO (if able) with PUP, so it has more attack against the next pokemon. I'm wondering about Water Shuriken, since I guess STAB adds 50% to the attacks, and Water Shuriken is base 15 o__o, that would be like 22 per hit (44-110 base damage outpost?), while Waterfall has 80? with stab that would be 120, right? which is more than max Shuriken, it only loses the priority issue, but is more reliable. If I'm mistaken here in the calcs, let me know please :)
And yes, I see the point about Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse now that you mention it, totally correct. I will test out Night Slash over Rock Slide and see how it performs.

Emerald Master said:
this is an awesome set, but I think it would be a little more effective with a fighting gem
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I don't think it will add that much value to PUP over Acrobatics, although it sounds interesting indeed. Actually I'm running the moveset without gem (since I can't find any, and not sure if they will add them eventually) so, I would probably take out Acrobatics for Night Slash or Waterfall, and then add a Life Orb or something to increase attack.
 
Sheriff_K said:
Why Surf over Scald? Scald is the best/most consistent Water Move, and it has a Burn chance..
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Scald IMO is better on walls then attackers. The power loss Is just not worth it even for a burn, as you lose out on several Importent ohko's or 2hko's. Hydro Pump, to me, is the best and only usable water type ove for greninja.
 
Yeah, I realized my mistake. For some reason I was under the impression that Surf was 60 bp... >_<

My friend is running Spikes, Shadow Sneak, U-Turn on his Greninja, and he says he's had good success. Setup Spikes, they switch in a Spinner, Shadow Sneak to spinblock, then U-Turn when they switch out to get something else in to deal with Greninja.

Though I like the Mixed idea, with HP Fire and Ice Beam to handle most Spinners.
 
Sheriff_K said:
Yeah, I realized my mistake. For some reason I was under the impression that Surf was 60 bp... >_<

My friend is running Spikes, Shadow Sneak, U-Turn on his Greninja, and he says he's had good success. Setup Spikes, they switch in a Spinner, Shadow Sneak to spinblock, then U-Turn when they switch out to get something else in to deal with Greninja.

Though I like the Mixed idea, with HP Fire and Ice Beam to handle most Spinners.
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Why wouldn't your friend just uturn into a spinblocker instead? And besides, shadow sneak is horrible, but incredibly flavorful, on greninja.
 
S0L1D G0LD said:
Scald IMO is better on walls then attackers. The power loss Is just not worth it even for a burn, as you lose out on several Importent ohko's or 2hko's. Hydro Pump, to me, is the best and only usable water type ove for greninja.
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Which OHKOs and 2HKOs, exactly? Which calculations support your statement? If no calcs are provided, Surf should be the default option, since it is more reliable and does more damage on average (90 vs 88 effective BP). With calculations that actually prove that Hydro Pump is needed to kill or prevent a safe switch from certain pokémon that otherwise could threaten or kill Greninja, then Hydro Pump will be justified. If this is done just because in the last gen most pokémon used Hydro Pump, then Surf should be used instead.
 
Time Mage said:
Which OHKOs and 2HKOs, exactly? Which calculations support your statement? If no calcs are provided, Surf should be the default option, since it is more reliable and does more damage on average (90 vs 88 effective BP). With calculations that actually prove that Hydro Pump is needed to kill or prevent a safe switch from certain pokémon that otherwise could threaten or kill Greninja, then Hydro Pump will be justified. If this is done just because in the last gen most pokémon used Hydro Pump, then Surf should be used instead.
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252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 161-190 (41.81 - 49.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 200-237 (51.94 - 61.55%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar: 177-208 (43.81 - 51.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar: 205-242 (50.74 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 231-273 (67.74 - 80.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 265-315 (77.71 - 92.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It may just depend on preference, however Hydro Pump does nab some key OHKO's and 2HKO's that Surf doesn't. You may want to check a page or two back for some more damage calcs I did.
 
VCrowe said:
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 161-190 (41.81 - 49.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 200-237 (51.94 - 61.55%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar: 177-208 (43.81 - 51.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar: 205-242 (50.74 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 231-273 (67.74 - 80.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 265-315 (77.71 - 92.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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But the addition of a Life Orb kind of negates all of these calculations. With it, Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO on Heatran and Tyranitar too. Even with 252 HP / 252 SpD variants, Surf is still a 2HKO with Life Orb. So, unless you are using a Focus Sash, Surf should be good enough.
 
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