Pokémon Gengar

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Again, what is more viable, Mega GEngar or Mega Alakazam and why? because stat wise Alakazam seems better. Also what do you do on yoir first turn because you are usally outsped when you mega Evolve, would you use subsitute that turn?

Based on stats alone, you'd think Alakazam is better. It hits faster and harder.

But Gengar's got a lot of things going for it. It has a safe switch in with levitate which is really useful for avoiding earthquake, spikes, and maybe most importantly, sticky web, on top of its immunity to normal type moves and poison. Also ghost type moves have better coverage than psychic type moves - only resisted by steel, dark, and normal, which are covered by (as bad as it is) focus blast. Gengar also obtains the amazing ability of shadow tag, which is great for revenge killing, while Alakazam loses its wonderful magic guard for the circumstantial trace.

Finally, Gengar just has a lot more options to choose from, including substitute, disable, pain split, trick, taunt, will-o-wisp, and so many more. This is amazing compared to Alakazam's measly calm mind or substitute sets.

When all things are considered, I'd say Gengar is the clear winner.


And for your 1st turn, I don't know what to say but get that substitute up or start Gengar off on opponents he out speeds.

 

[Thorhammer]

It's worth noting that Alakazam's always had better offensive stats than Gengar, but with Gengar's excellent typing and better STAB, it's the one that's stayed OU for every gen. Especially now that Ghost and Poison are better attacking types than ever, with Ghost having arguably the best single-move neutral coverage in the game, perfect for a STAB move. Psychic, meanwhile, takes a small hit due to Dark's increased importance as a defensive type.

 

[Flamebot]

I came up with a Few interesting sets for MegaGengar. I want to save some time so Each set is 252 to SpAtt and Speed and 4 to hp

Moves: Subsitute/Protect,
Hidden power Fire or Icy wind/thunderbolt, Shadowball, Sludge wave.
This set isn't really tooo effective to Ttar, but With HP fire it can 1/2HKO the common Steel types. Subsitute or Protect for switch in/Avoiding attacks, Sludgewave for fairys and Shadowball for other threats, tho this set is almost screwed if your opponent uses a blissey

Another set that might be useful...
Subsitute/Protect
Destiny bond
Sludgewave
ShadowBall

I don't know if Substitute AND destiney bond are needed but it seems effective.

Thoughts? I know they are probally not worth running but I want to be sure.

 

[AOPSUser]

I came up with a Few interesting sets for MegaGengar. I want to save some time so Each set is 252 to SpAtt and Speed and 4 to hp

Moves: Subsitute/Protect,
Hidden power Fire or Icy wind/thunderbolt, Shadowball, Sludge wave.
This set isn't really tooo effective to Ttar, but With HP fire it can 1/2HKO the common Steel types. Subsitute or Protect for switch in/Avoiding attacks, Sludgewave for fairys and Shadowball for other threats, tho this set is almost screwed if your opponent uses a blissey

Another set that might be useful...
Subsitute/Protect
Destiny bond
Sludgewave
ShadowBall

I don't know if Substitute AND destiney bond are needed but it seems effective.

Thoughts? I know they are probally not worth running but I want to be sure.

These sets both want Substitute>Protect just because Tyranitar exists. I suppose you can use HP Fire, but generally Focus Blast does more to Steel-types (the only exceptions being Metagross, Jirachi, Skarmory, and Aegislash, which are all murdered by Shadow Ball, and Ferrothorn, which is still hit equally as hard by Focus Blast), and it hits more targets than just Steel-types, most notably Dark-types. Thunderbolt is a move I saw a lot on Gengar in Gen 5 for reasons I never fully understood-I'm not sure what they were trying for coverage on. Skarmory??? Icy Wind could be interesting but Gengar is already pretty fast, and Dazzling Gleam is better for hitting Dragons and gets great coverage with Gengar's STABs to boot. The second set is definitely worth trying, and if you feel gutsy you can even forgo Substitute altogether.

 

[Shroomisaur]

A very good point has been raised in the Gengar analysis thread: is Perish Song even legal on Gengar at the moment? It receives it as an egg move, but as far as I know Misdreavus is the only Pokemon in the Amorphous group that can pass it down, and Missy isn't released yet.

Has anyone actually found a way to get Perish Song? One of Mega Gengar's best sets might actually be illegal (for now)!

 

[Flamebot]

These sets both want Substitute>Protect just because Tyranitar exists. I suppose you can use HP Fire, but generally Focus Blast does more to Steel-types (the only exceptions being Metagross, Jirachi, Skarmory, and Aegislash, which are all murdered by Shadow Ball, and Ferrothorn, which is still hit equally as hard by Focus Blast), and it hits more targets than just Steel-types, most notably Dark-types. Thunderbolt is a move I saw a lot on Gengar in Gen 5 for reasons I never fully understood-I'm not sure what they were trying for coverage on. Skarmory??? Icy Wind could be interesting but Gengar is already pretty fast, and Dazzling Gleam is better for hitting Dragons and gets great coverage with Gengar's STABs to boot. The second set is definitely worth trying, and if you feel gutsy you can even forgo Substitute altogether.

So my second set is actually decent? and for the first set the reason I didn't say focus blast is because it has low acuarcy and that i find HP fire to be more reliable to to it having better acuarcy.

My second set on the other hand is meant to completly screw everything lol, I do agree, this is worth trying more, and if I forgo sub, I think dazzling gleam would be effective. I don't know, I think I would keep subsitute just in case.

 

[RockStarFish]

These sets both want Substitute>Protect just because Tyranitar exists. I suppose you can use HP Fire, but generally Focus Blast does more to Steel-types (the only exceptions being Metagross, Jirachi, Skarmory, and Aegislash, which are all murdered by Shadow Ball, and Ferrothorn, which is still hit equally as hard by Focus Blast), and it hits more targets than just Steel-types, most notably Dark-types. Thunderbolt is a move I saw a lot on Gengar in Gen 5 for reasons I never fully understood-I'm not sure what they were trying for coverage on. Skarmory??? Icy Wind could be interesting but Gengar is already pretty fast, and Dazzling Gleam is better for hitting Dragons and gets great coverage with Gengar's STABs to boot. The second set is definitely worth trying, and if you feel gutsy you can even forgo Substitute altogether.

Crucially, Substitute also prevents Gengar from getting massacred by Sucker Punch, which would be one of the first answers given MegaGengar's speed and lack of priority moves itself.

In fact, Sub MegaGengar not only avoids being checked by Sucker Punch, but easily disposes of just about every STAB Sucker Punch user with correct prediction if you run what I assume will become MegaGengar's standard offensive set;

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
Timid | 4HP / 252SAT / 252SPD
-Shadow Ball
-Sludge Wave
-Focus Blast
-Substitute

252 SpA (custom) Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Honchkrow: 321-378 (93.85 - 110.52%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 860-1012 (302.81 - 356.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA (custom) Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 576-678 (204.25 - 240.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 484-570 (178.59 - 210.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That being said, even Sub MegaGengar will still get checked by most variants of Aegislash, particularly 252HP / 252+DEF / 4SDE Stance Dance Aegislash;

252 SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD (custom): 224-266 (69.13 - 82.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 386-456 (141.91 - 167.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Flygon Pony]

Crucially, Substitute also prevents Gengar from getting massacred by Sucker Punch, which would be one of the first answers given MegaGengar's speed and lack of priority moves itself.

In fact, Sub MegaGengar not only avoids being checked by Sucker Punch, but easily disposes of just about every STAB Sucker Punch user with correct prediction if you run what I assume will become MegaGengar's standard offensive set;

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
Timid | 4HP / 252SAT / 252SPD
-Shadow Ball
-Sludge Wave
-Focus Blast
-Substitute

252 SpA (custom) Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Honchkrow: 321-378 (93.85 - 110.52%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 860-1012 (302.81 - 356.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA (custom) Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 576-678 (204.25 - 240.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 484-570 (178.59 - 210.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That being said, even Sub MegaGengar will still get checked by most variants of Aegislash, particularly 252HP / 252+DEF / 4SDE Stance Dance Aegislash;

252 SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD (custom): 224-266 (69.13 - 82.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 386-456 (141.91 - 167.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So the only Sucker Punch user that could probably check Mega Gengar would have to be Mega Kangaskhan, because of it's ability. The first Sucker Punchwould rid of the sub and the second probably KO, it if not some close to. Mega Kangaskhan was said to have an attack boost than his regular form, although I'm not sure if this is true. I think Serebii says it has a base 125 attack stat. Because MGengar would expect another Sucker Punch, he would use sub to avoid this, this is when MKan would use something like Crunch, again hitting twice because of ability, inevitably killing it. Although I'm not sure if MKan can stick around for that Crunch if MGengar uses Focus Blast. Serebii says that MKan will have a base 100 Sp. Def stat, but I don't think it can survive a Focus Blast from MGengar. If you ask me, this guy is just too OP for OU and will most likely get banned. Only choice scarf users can check this guy, and fast ones at that since the need to have at least a base 90 speed to outspeed this guy, and there aren't many that can safely 0HKO, although he isn't the bulkiest around, I'd say Garchomp, Haxorus, Salamence, Terrakkion (with EQ), Latios and Starmie (with Psyshock) can safely 0HKO this MGengar. Not quite sure about any others.

 

[McGrrr]

I use Black Sludge on my Gengar. Substitute trolls Mega Kangaskhan all day long. Normal Gengar is so good this generation. Levitate and 6.25%/turn recovery shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[RockStarFish]

So the only Sucker Punch user that could probably check Mega Gengar would have to be Mega Kangaskhan, because of it's ability. The first Sucker Punchwould rid of the sub and the second probably KO, it if not some close to. Mega Kangaskhan was said to have an attack boost than his regular form, although I'm not sure if this is true. I think Serebii says it has a base 125 attack stat. Because MGengar would expect another Sucker Punch, he would use sub to avoid this, this is when MKan would use something like Crunch, again hitting twice because of ability, inevitably killing it. Although I'm not sure if MKan can stick around for that Crunch if MGengar uses Focus Blast. Serebii says that MKan will have a base 100 Sp. Def stat, but I don't think it can survive a Focus Blast from MGengar. If you ask me, this guy is just too OP for OU and will most likely get banned. Only choice scarf users can check this guy, and fast ones at that since the need to have at least a base 90 speed to outspeed this guy, and there aren't many that can safely 0HKO, although he isn't the bulkiest around, I'd say Garchomp, Haxorus, Salamence, Terrakkion (with EQ), Latios and Starmie (with Psyshock) can safely 0HKO this MGengar. Not quite sure about any others.

I'm not sure if MegaKangaskhan would run both Sucker Punch and Crunch. It seems very redundant. I reckon out of the two moves, they're probably only gonna carry Sucker Punch. But numbers speak louder than words, so;

1st hit: 252 Atk (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 204-242 (75 - 88.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2nd hit: -2 252 Atk (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 102-122 (37.5 - 44.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, assuming MegaGengar gets the Sub up on Sucker Punch, or already has one when (Mega)Kangaskhan comes in, it'll comfortably avoid getting OHKO'd by Sucker Punch even after the HP loss from Substitute. And in return;

252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 320-378 (90.9 - 107.38%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

 

[Flamebot]

Does gravity affect Hypnosis to?
Because if so, this set would be amazing
Hypnosis
Subsitute
Focus blast/Nightmare
Destiny bond/Shadow ball


If Hypnosis accuracy is raised due to gravity you no longer have to rely on sub as much. Subsitute is used first as the move it should use when it Mega Evo, throwing in a hynosis after your sub is destroyed you put the pokemon to sleep and use another Subsitute. Spam shadow ball or use nightmare then shadow ball or run Focus blast as its will hit now and then use shsdow ball. You could also use this with Focus and Destiny, so if they can survive FOcus balst you and gravity wore off Destiny bond or switching out is anoth option....


Thoughts?

 

[Flygon Pony]

I'm not sure if MegaKangaskhan would run both Sucker Punch and Crunch. It seems very redundant. I reckon out of the two moves, they're probably only gonna carry Sucker Punch. But numbers speak louder than words, so;

1st hit: 252 Atk (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 204-242 (75 - 88.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2nd hit: -2 252 Atk (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 102-122 (37.5 - 44.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, assuming MegaGengar gets the Sub up on Sucker Punch, or already has one when (Mega)Kangaskhan comes in, it'll comfortably avoid getting OHKO'd by Sucker Punch even after the HP loss from Substitute. And in return;

252 SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 320-378 (90.9 - 107.38%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

Well if you ever want to trully conter MegaGengar, then those choice users mentiones above would do quite nice.

 

[X5Dragon]

A very good point has been raised in the Gengar analysis thread: is Perish Song even legal on Gengar at the moment? It receives it as an egg move, but as far as I know Misdreavus is the only Pokemon in the Amorphous group that can pass it down, and Missy isn't released yet.

Has anyone actually found a way to get Perish Song? One of Mega Gengar's best sets might actually be illegal (for now)!

Hmm, looks like Missy ain't around yet and I don't know of anyone new that can learn AND is in Gastly's egg group. That being said, December is about 3 weeks away and we have a tier (OU Pokebank) that simulates the environment where every transferable pokemon is legal. Still that might cause trouble for WiFi battlers who want to EV train and breed a perfect Gastly so soon.

I'll mention it as a note in the set, thanks.

 

[CWW]

Well if you ever want to trully conter MegaGengar, then those choice users mentiones above would do quite nice.

Scarf users can't check the SubDisable set if it has a sub up.

Gengar truly is the god of versatility.

 

[Piconoe]

Okay, my Timid Scarf Gengar is dishing out absolutely appalling

So the only Sucker Punch user that could probably check Mega Gengar would have to be Mega Kangaskhan, because of it's ability. The first Sucker Punchwould rid of the sub and the second probably KO, it if not some close to. Mega Kangaskhan was said to have an attack boost than his regular form, although I'm not sure if this is true. I think Serebii says it has a base 125 attack stat. Because MGengar would expect another Sucker Punch, he would use sub to avoid this, this is when MKan would use something like Crunch, again hitting twice because of ability, inevitably killing it. Although I'm not sure if MKan can stick around for that Crunch if MGengar uses Focus Blast. Serebii says that MKan will have a base 100 Sp. Def stat, but I don't think it can survive a Focus Blast from MGengar. If you ask me, this guy is just too OP for OU and will most likely get banned. Only choice scarf users can check this guy, and fast ones at that since the need to have at least a base 90 speed to outspeed this guy, and there aren't many that can safely 0HKO, although he isn't the bulkiest around, I'd say Garchomp, Haxorus, Salamence, Terrakkion (with EQ), Latios and Starmie (with Psyshock) can safely 0HKO this MGengar. Not quite sure about any others.

And Gengar. Don't forget Gengar.

EDIT: BTW, can a Modest Scarf Gengar with 252 Spe IVs run circles around everything including Jolly Megengar with 252 Spe IVs? Trying to figure out a good way to increase the damage output on my Jolly Scarf Gengar without detrimenting his amazing speed. He keeps falling short on the damage and I'd like to fix that.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Gengar truly is the god of versatility.

Gengar is the god of unpredictability, the god of versatility is my main man. . .KAIRYU! (dragonite for you people who didn't start playing with red and green) because of the rediculous number of roles it can play.

Anyway, since the only way my MeGengar has died so far is sub damage and AV counters, I have trouble seeing how a sucker punch threatens it.

 

[TSMP]

So the only Sucker Punch user that could probably check Mega Gengar would have to be Mega Kangaskhan, because of it's ability. The first Sucker Punchwould rid of the sub and the second probably KO, it if not some close to. Mega Kangaskhan was said to have an attack boost than his regular form, although I'm not sure if this is true. I think Serebii says it has a base 125 attack stat. Because MGengar would expect another Sucker Punch, he would use sub to avoid this, this is when MKan would use something like Crunch, again hitting twice because of ability, inevitably killing it. Although I'm not sure if MKan can stick around for that Crunch if MGengar uses Focus Blast. Serebii says that MKan will have a base 100 Sp. Def stat, but I don't think it can survive a Focus Blast from MGengar. If you ask me, this guy is just too OP for OU and will most likely get banned. Only choice scarf users can check this guy, and fast ones at that since the need to have at least a base 90 speed to outspeed this guy, and there aren't many that can safely 0HKO, although he isn't the bulkiest around, I'd say Garchomp, Haxorus, Salamence, Terrakkion (with EQ), Latios and Starmie (with Psyshock) can safely 0HKO this MGengar. Not quite sure about any others.

Don't forget Spiritomb, due to infiltrator hitting through subs now. Spiritomb also has sucker punch, pursuit, shadow sneak, and hypnosis to use with infiltrator.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Don't forget Spiritomb, due to infiltrator hitting through subs now. Spiritomb also has pursuit, shadow sneak, and hypnosis to use with infiltrator.

Oh snap, infiltrator spiritomb might actually become a thing. And now his stabs hit through steel. Is anybody else scared right now?

 

[PapaStalin]

Some people have been suggesting using hex with hypnosis or venoshock with toxic spikes, so could you potentially run both Hex and Venoshock on a team with toxic spikers, maybe mixing in hypnosis/WoW to status those unaffected by toxic spikes?

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Some people have been suggesting using hex with hypnosis or venoshock with toxic spikes, so could you potentially run both Hex and Venoshock on a team with toxic spikers, maybe mixing in hypnosis/WoW to status those unaffected by toxic spikes?

I've been liking Tspikes + venoshock, but I've typically needed to run focus blast for steel types and I usually run shadow ball for flyers. Running hex instead could work, especially since the biggest flying threat to gengar is Talonflame, which isn't countered by shadow ball at all, but thus far hiding behind a substitute while firing off shadow balls seems to work fine.

 

[PapaStalin]

I've been liking Tspikes + venoshock, but I've typically needed to run focus blast for steel types and I usually run shadow ball for flyers. Running hex instead could work, especially since the biggest flying threat to gengar is Talonflame, which isn't countered by shadow ball at all, but thus far hiding behind a substitute while firing off shadow balls seems to work fine.

You're right on having to deal with steels, as with steel types you cannot forgo focus blast (which is a shame because I despise the 70 accuracy), and substitute is mandatory. I wonder if you could just run a team dedicated to a mega gengar with venoshock/hex/sub/Wow or coverage move, having other teammates remove steels and focus on status (maybe pair it up with a prankster status user), because having 130 base STAB's coming from a mega gengar is pretty lethal.

I'm probably just putting too much wishful thinking into it, because it would be impractical to build around hex and venoshock.

 

[Flamebot]

If someone is worried about infultrators run protect, and make sure you can OHKO them the turn after. other than that if you don't want to just switch.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

You're right on having to deal with steels, as with steel types you cannot forgo focus blast (which is a shame because I despise the 70 accuracy), and substitute is mandatory. I wonder if you could just run a team dedicated to a mega gengar with venoshock/hex/sub/Wow or coverage move, having other teammates remove steels and focus on status (maybe pair it up with a prankster status user), because having 130 base STAB's coming from a mega gengar is pretty lethal.

I'm probably just putting too much wishful thinking into it, because it would be impractical to build around hex and venoshock.

You might be able to use something like a tyranitar to bait steel types out and then (theoretically) KO them with either earthquake or superpower. Klefki could be a great teammate with prankster Twaves. Togekiss could baton pass substitutes and nasty plots, or Espeon with Calm mind and/or dual screens. All of these will be almost pointless if you can't get and keep Tspikes on the field, but since Gengar is a natural spin blocker, that's not horribly hard. I say all of this to point out that a hex/venoshock set could definitely work, but it depends on how much your willing to put into it.

If someone is worried about infultrators run protect, other than that if you don't want to just switch.

protect would be a waste of a move slot as mega gengar outspeeds all infiltrators except Ninjask (which won't be in OU), Crobat (Same base speed, but might run a scarf) and scarfed noivern.

 

[Flamebot]

You might be able to use something like a tyranitar to bait steel types out and then (theoretically) KO them with either earthquake or superpower. Klefki could be a great teammate with prankster Twaves. Togekiss could baton pass substitutes and nasty plots, or Espeon with Calm mind and/or dual screens. All of these will be almost pointless if you can't get and keep Tspikes on the field, but since Gengar is a natural spin blocker, that's not horribly hard. I say all of this to point out that a hex/venoshock set could definitely work, but it depends on how much your willing to put into it.


protect would be a waste of a move slot as mega gengar outspeeds all infiltrators except Ninjask (which won't be in OU), Crobat (Same base speed, but might run a scarf) and scarfed noivern.

Crobats will might use scarfs, and a scarf Noviern?(Possibly? not sure) and like I said you can always switch out.
I personaly don't like protect usally, as if worst comes to work Gengar can run sub and destiny which I prefer, but wont work on infoltrators.
Switching is better than running protect.

 

[effyouzion]

^ Protect is to scout CB Scizor. If he uses pursuit, you stay in, if he uses BP, you switch.

Altho I still prefer sub. CB Scizor hasn't been all that common on Pokebank, and I've seen more than one Drapion to counter MGengar (who laughs at you if you don't have sub).