Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Quaetrix]

It's very early in the thread and it will be my last message here but I completely agree with the precedent messages and woud like to sum up saying that basically M-Gengar is like having the ability to choose one or two pokemon of your opponent team and remove them. Which is not only powerful but deeply uninteresting and frustrating (and far too easy to do).

EDIT: Would just like to add that M-Banette is pretty much the same deal.

 

[AOPSUser]

I'm pretty sure we're well on our way to establishing the brokenness of Perish Trapping. It gets Shadow Tag, and can Perish Song whatever the hell it wants, switch out on the last turn, and then move on to the next wall. There is no safe counter to that set by itself, since it can kill literally almost anything it wants.

The problem with this set is getting in and setting up safely--you'd have to switch in on a Choiced resisted move or a Blissey/Chansey (or something of that regard). Against a lot of offensive teams you'd have a difficult time setting up the Perish Song in the first place.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

The problem with this set is getting in and setting up safely--you'd have to switch in on a Choiced resisted move or a Blissey/Chansey (or something of that regard). Against a lot of offensive teams you'd have a difficult time setting up the Perish Song in the first place.

Coming in on offensive teams isn't Mengar's problem. Perish Trapping is hell on earth for walls, and a safe switch-in means he can deal with offensive Pokemon for a revenge KO, too.

 

[alexwolf]

Taunt + Destiny Bond + dual STABs or Shadow Ball + Focus Blast is Mega Gengar's best set atm. It can OHKO / 2HKO a ton of offensive Pokemon with its attacking moves and any wall that can't OHKO it, with Taunt + Destiny Bond, which is like 90% of the walls. Sure, it may die in the process, but you just opened the way for one or more of your sweepers to run through the opponent's team. Sure ban unless we really don't give a fuck about defensive teams.

 

[SansNickel]

The problem with this set is getting in and setting up safely--you'd have to switch in on a Choiced resisted move or a Blissey/Chansey (or something of that regard). Against a lot of offensive teams you'd have a difficult time setting up the Perish Song in the first place.

U-turns and volt switches for sure. People already run it just for the sake of momentum and nice switch ins, so you can just fit mega gengar in.

 

[RockStarFish]

The problem with this set is getting in and setting up safely--you'd have to switch in on a Choiced resisted move or a Blissey/Chansey (or something of that regard). Against a lot of offensive teams you'd have a difficult time setting up the Perish Song in the first place.

The thing is, if Gengar comes in on something it can force out, it can Perish Song the switch-in. If the switch-in can't outspeed Mengar or use VoltTurn, Mengar can use Substitute, then Protect, then swap out. The opponent's Gengar counter dies, and Gengar is still quite healthy.

It can do this multiple times, a task made even easier if it's incorporated into a VoltTurn team. And if its health gets low, it doesn't need to use Substitute; it can gamble for two straight Protects and still get the KO.

Mega Gengar is broken. Ban Gengarite.

 

[AOPSUser]

Coming in on offensive teams isn't Mengar's problem. Perish Trapping is hell on earth for walls, and a safe switch-in means he can deal with offensive Pokemon for a revenge KO, too.

On the Perish Song set, though, it's kinda hard to revenge kill offensive mons with one move, since you need Perish Song, Substitute, and Protect to succeed. If you can't take one hit on the turn you set up the Perish Song, then you can't trap. There's a lot of stuff that can do major damage to you on that turn. But anyways, Perish Song Mega Gengar works pretty well if you only use it for defensive mons (many of which carry an attacking move anyways, and stuff like Hippowdon hurts it).

As alexwolf pointed out above, you can use Taunt to get rid of defensive mons too, and it takes a bit less moveslot investment than Perish Song.

EDIT:

U-turns and volt switches for sure. People already run it just for the sake of momentum and nice switch ins, so you can just fit mega gengar in.

The thing is, if Gengar comes in on something it can force out, it can Perish Song the switch-in. If the switch-in can't outspeed Mengar or use VoltTurn, Mengar can use Substitute, then Protect, then swap out. The opponent's Gengar counter dies, and Gengar is still quite healthy.

It can do this multiple times, a task made even easier if it's incorporated into a VoltTurn team. And if its health gets low, it doesn't need to use Substitute; it can gamble for two straight Protects and still get the KO.

Mega Gengar is broken. Ban Gengarite.

After you are Mega'd, your opponent is stuck, so they just attack you with whatever they have while you set up Perish Song. You definitely have to trap something that can't touch Gengar much for it to work. Although it really does screw with people the first turn.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

So I thought that I'd share my thoughts for a bit. During my time on the OU ladder, I found Mega Gengar to be underwhelming. I could often kill it with some priority users or do some smart switching to put it in a bad spot. BUT I haven't faced Perish Song Mega Gengar yet nor have I ever heard of the set. So I literally just took it for a spin and found that it was a guaranteed OHKO and a very possible 2HKO. However, I found the amount of priority users on the opponent's team troublesome. After all, the ladder is littered with Talonflame, Aegislash, and Scizor. The former two are very powerful, and Scizor can use U-Turn to come out of a tough spot and switch to something else to sack before finishing off with BP.
Summary: In the presence of a defensive team, I was able to tear apart their whole team with little effort. But in the presence of an offensive team with strong priority users, Mega Gengar is put in a very tough spot to function.
So what I'd like to ask is: Do priority users balance out Mega Gengar? Does Volt-Turn balance out Mega Gengar?

 

[dragonuser]

The thing is, if Gengar comes in on something it can force out, it can Perish Song the switch-in. If the switch-in can't outspeed Mengar or use VoltTurn, Mengar can use Substitute, then Protect, then swap out. The opponent's Gengar counter dies, and Gengar is still quite healthy.

Agree 100%. Also thought that I would throw it out there that Mega Gengar also has access to Pain Split meaning that even if it subs down once or twice in taking down a wall, it can always just Pain Split on the next wall (likely with higher HP) and be ready to go again.

 

[SansNickel]

After you are Mega'd, your opponent is stuck, so they just attack you with whatever they have while you set up Perish Song. You definitely have to trap something that can't touch Gengar much for it to work. Although it really does screw with people the first turn.

True, but if it's an offensive pokemon that can hurt gengar then just send out your other check/counter as usual. You're not being forced to send it in as much as possible. . . just whenever the time is right. And surely it can deal with at least one one or two pokemon on the opposing side, which makes it well worth its spot.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

As an offensive player, Mega Gengar really hasn't troubled my teams much at all. However... I do not think this makes Mega Gengar not broken. I have no experience actually using stall/defensively-oriented teams, but from what I've seen of Mega Gengar vs. Defense I can say that Mega Gengar really does give stall/defensively-oriented teams a hard time (with Taunt+Destiny Bond or just using Perish Song or whatnot to guarantee taking out defensive Pokemon.)

In addition, what I have noticed is that I run into almost no stall teams on the ladder, which may or may not be because of Mega Gengar. However, given that Mega Gengar makes stall's life miserable, I can say that Mega Gengar probably plays a part in that.

Again, I have no experience actually using stall, or any defensively-oriented team for that matter, so I can't say for sure, but given my observations, I'd say Gengarite should be Uber.

 

[anubite]

This is actually up for discussion? I was expecting more rapid fire despot banning, like we saw with MBlazekin, who is pretty easy to counter, if you know, use a physical wall not named Ferrothorn once in your lifetime? He was uber last gen, but he was hardly a big deal in OU. MGengar is considerably less threatening.

MGengar is fine. Fucking normal Gengar plus Life Orb has the same SpA stat. MGengar isn't outspeeding bullet punches with that useless speedboost, and the loss of Levitate means it's easy to preidict a transformation and EQ it. Focus Sash Dugtrio OHKOs it or forces a switch. Numerous pokemon carry EQ and can kill it fine. Numerous MPokemon, namely those with Sucker Punch can easily deal with MGengar. Granted, MGengar can carry Sub or Disable, but you should be scouting for these things. If you're playing intelligently, MGengar is easy to deal with. If you're so worried about it, MAlakazam hard counters it. As does ChoiceBand scizor (unless MGengar has HP fire). As does MKhan with EQ, or a certain priority bravebird...

If we're banning Gengar under some popular notion that he's too good, then we will shortly be banning all Mega pokemon from OU. MGengar is far less scary than MKhan or MMawile in many circumstances. If smogon's stance is to ban megamon from standard OU play I think that injures the competitive scene, it doesn't help it. Introduce a new non-mega tier if it is such a pain for certain players to adapt.

I want to harp on the point that mega stones consume an item slot which translates, usually, into an equivalent trade. You can run Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Band, et cetera, or you can have a mega pokemon. They're pretty much equivalent, except in the circumstances of lifting certain NU pokemon into usability.

 

[psVoltage]

Wow is the only thing that I have to say. It completely slipped my mind that Gengar even had a perish song set, and how devastating that would be to Defensive teams. MoosyDoosy pointed out that pokemon like Talonflame or Scizor could check it, but keyword check. Gengar picks who he wants to fight so they would come in for the revenge kill. If they are not pursuit users though Gengar can simply switch out.
After seeing this new evidence I'm really leaning toward the Banning of Gengarite due to being very unhealthy for the meta and making walls basicly useless.

 

[anubite]

Wow is the only thing that I have to say. It completely slipped my mind that Gengar even had a perish song set, and how devastating that would be to Defensive teams. MoosyDoosy pointed out that pokemon like Talonflame or Scizor could check it, but keyword check. Gengar picks who he wants to fight so they would come in for the revenge kill. If they are not pursuit users though Gengar can simply switch out.
After seeing this new evidence I'm really leaning toward the Banning of Gengarite due to being very unhealthy for the meta and making walls basicly useless.

You can pull off the same stunt with Whirlpool Politoed.

If you can't kill a Gengar in three turns (let alone allowing it to get off a perish song in the first place), your team has far bigger problems than Gengar.

There are copious pokemon with high powered priority moves that can deal with Gengar. The least of which are Azumarill, MMawile, Scizor, et cetera

I run an Entrainment Truant Durant team with Arena Trap and Shadow tag all over the place. I don't see that being banned, yet it's just as abusive. It's also just as easy to counterplay.

 

[AOPSUser]

You can pull off the same stunt with Whirlpool Politoed.

If you can't kill a Gengar in three turns (let alone allowing it to get off a perish song in the first place), your team has far bigger problems than Gengar.

There are copious pokemon with high powered priority moves that can deal with Gengar. The least of which are Azumarill, MMawile, Scizor, et cetera

I run an Entrainment Truant Durant team with Arena Trap and Shadow tag all over the place. I don't see that being banned, yet it's just as abusive. It's also just as easy to counterplay.

There's a difference. Gengar, when not Mega'd, can switch in and either force an opponent out to set up Perish Song for free, or, if switching in on something that can't touch it, take minuscule damage while setting up Perish Song. Afterwards, Gengar can choose who to fight, but it still needs to take a hit when setting up the Perish Song. It's not a big deal when trapping something like Blissey, and if you Mega Evolve and use Shadow Ball or something and then switch, said Blissey has no idea you are using Perish Song. When most people aren't running Perish Song, you just tend to assume they aren't.

That being said, most teams have some way to stop Perish Song Mega Gengar. The only thing is that you have to stop it before it kills half your team first. If Perish Song becomes standard on Mega Gengar, then every team will be able to stop it very quickly, so it will lose viability. That said though, it's a vicious cycle between Perish Song and offensive and Taunt--as one becomes standard, people play around it so well that its usage will drop, and so on.

Also if your Gengar is staying in on a powerful priority user you are a horrible battler.

 

[psVoltage]

You can pull off the same stunt with Whirlpool Politoed.

If you can't kill a Gengar in three turns (let alone allowing it to get off a perish song in the first place), your team has far bigger problems than Gengar.

There are copious pokemon with high powered priority moves that can deal with Gengar. The least of which are Azumarill, MMawile, Scizor, et cetera

I run an Entrainment Truant Durant team with Arena Trap and Shadow tag all over the place. I don't see that being banned, yet it's just as abusive. It's also just as easy to counterplay.

I forgot to mention the use of destiny bond + Taunt, but others have said this already. Pretty much can kill the walls that hit enough to ko gengar. Also for trapping the walls that don't hit much he can just stall them out with substitute. Not saying its guarenteed, just it can kill an important wall if used right which is very bad lol.

 

[Gary]

I'm not entirely sure about my stance on Mega Gengar, but I have a pretty good idea. All the teams I build are either bulky enough to take one of Mega Gengar's attacks and deal heavy damage to it next turn, or can just straight up OHKO it with something. Because of this, I have been unable to truly get a feel for how devastating this Mega is to defensive teams, as I haven't been bothered to build any. However, a few of my friends prefer to go the more defensive route when building teams, and they've told me that Mega Gengar is nearly impossible to deal with. The Taunt + Perish Song sets can easily pick apart common defensive cores that you'd normally see on stall teams, and thanks to its amazing offences and incredible coverage, half the time it doesn't even need to use Perish Song when it can just spam Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast. etc. I'm not saying that Mega Gengar is ONLY good against defensive teams, as it can easily take advantage of many of the offensive Pokemon in OU and proceed to trap them and take them out for the entirety of the game, all I'm saying is that its impact on defensive teams is detrimental, and I don't know how I feel about a Pokemon that can take full advantage of a majority of these kinds of teams. I still think that it puts a lot of pressure on offensive teams as well, because it forces the player to play extremely conservative until Mega Gengar is gone, but this could be said about other trappers as well. However, unlike Gothitelle, Wobb, and Dugtrio, Mega Gengar can basically pick and choose what it wants to trap, whereas most other trappers are limited to a certain pool of Pokemon or are just not nearly as effective at trapping as Mega Gengar.

The way I see it, I don't think its pressure on offensive teams is enough to push it to Ubers, but I think the absurdly almost unfair amount of pressure it puts on more defensive oriented teams it just unhealthy in my opinion. Again, I must stress that I'm not saying that this thing isn't devastating to offensive teams, because it is, but its huge impact on defensive teams are enough to make it Uber, and combined with its overall great success against offensive teams, I really don't see anything good coming out of this Pokemon, and this is coming from a guy who is pretty damn anti-ban. Mega Gengar is Uber material. I honestly don't think there's any denying it.

On a side note, I'm definitely more inclined to this thing getting an official suspect test. It's still pretty damn broken, but I don't think it's so obviously broken as Blaziken or Deoxys-N. To me, Perish Song is what stands out to me as broken on this thing, and because of this, I think this Mega deserves a test so we can properly evaluate what sets really push it over the edge. There could be more.

 

[AOPSUser]

I forgot to mention the use of destiny bond + Taunt, but others have said this already. Pretty much can kill the walls that hit enough to ko gengar. Also for trapping the walls that don't hit much he can just stall them out with substitute.

Oh god. Taunt+Destiny Bond. While you do have to predict around Tyranitar (or risk a 49% chance of survival with Focus Blast), it can really work wonders. For example, Taunting a Gliscor whose only attacking move is Earthquake can be all you need to set up a Talonflame sweep. Taunt also screws with Blissey, but if it has Flamethrower or Ice Beam it wins the damage race.

Also trying to stall walls with Substitute is a bad idea, switch on something that can set up on them when they are Taunted.

 

[ryan]

You can pull off the same stunt with Whirlpool Politoed.

If you can't kill a Gengar in three turns (let alone allowing it to get off a perish song in the first place), your team has far bigger problems than Gengar.

There are copious pokemon with high powered priority moves that can deal with Gengar. The least of which are Azumarill, MMawile, Scizor, et cetera

You're not going to be able to kill a Gengar in three turns that's spamming Substitute and Protect. Whirlpool Politoed also has to take a turn to hit something with Whirlpool, then take a turn to use Perish Song, then stall out three turns. It's also much slower and has no immunities to take advantage of. It also doesn't have abse 170 Special Attack that makes offensive Pokemon tremble. It also can't run a variety of support/attacking moves to get its job done. It also can't pick what it wants to trap; the opponent will always be switching something into Politoed that can immediately threaten it. A Mega Gengar/Whirlpool Politoed comparison is an incredibly poor one.

 

[farranpoison]

It's very early in the thread and it will be my last message here but I completely agree with the precedent messages and woud like to sum up saying that basically M-Gengar is like having the ability to choose one or two pokemon of your opponent team and remove them. Which is not only powerful but deeply uninteresting and frustrating (and far too easy to do).

EDIT: Would just like to add that M-Banette is pretty much the same deal.

MBanette and MGengar are most definitely not the same deal. MBanette has some of the worst 4MSS in Pokemon history. It wants to be able to do so many things at once, like Taunt, WoW, Protect, Shadow Sneak, Phantom Force, Shadow Claw, Destiny Bond, Sucker Punch, etc etc. More often than not, MBanette will just be death fodder and hope something goes down with it.

MGengar is different. It can run a myriad of different sets, and each has no need for that many optional moves. Plus, MGengar has Shadow Tag, which means that if it's running DB, something will die. MBanette has Prankster DB too, but the other player knows this, and if they're smart, will switch out or something to avoid it.

I mostly play wifi, so I don't really have too much weight when it comes to saying whether or not MGengar/Gengarite should be banned or not (faced one on the BS, took it down in one shot with SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball lol) but here are some things I can glean from an outside perspective.

MGengar is still FRAIL AS HELL. It WILL die if the player switches him in stupidly. However, if the player is not a complete idiot, MGengar will be able to take out at least one of the opponent's mons, which is sometimes all you need to win. It can run a number of sets which can be a complete mindfuck to the opponent, and can result in a loss of a mon if they guess wrong. People can say scout, but how exactly do you scout something that you can't switch from besides the first turn? Whatever you're sending into MGengar has two fates. 1) it is the correct counter and MGengar loses, or 2) you have just sacrificed a mon for no good reason.

I believe that it is MGengar's unpredictability that is its best strength, and in a game where even one mon loss can cost you the match, the basically guaranteed 1-1 loss MGengar provides is a bit too much. If you guess wrong, you're screwed out of a mon that could have potentially won you the match.

Thus, I am leaning towards a ban, but otherwise that's all I've got to say so far.

 

[Fuzznip]

Gengar is like a sniper in the sense that it can target anything it wants to and eliminate it without question. Therefore, when played to Mega Gengar's strengths, I, as much as I never wanted this to be the case, think it's an unhealthy threat in the metagame and can slowly but surely easily pick off the opponent's team. My reasons:

1. Shadow Tag enables it to target almost any Pokemon it wants to and essentially eliminate it from the game.

This is the biggest advantage Gengar has over basically any other Pokemon. It can select almost any Pokemon at any period of time during the match and, given the opponent is weakened enough (this isn't difficult with entry hazards and the like), you basically get a free kill. This means that it can dispose of troublesome walls, such as Skarmory and Togekiss, for your sweepers to wreak havoc. It's not even just walls, either. See that weakened Tyranitar? See that Excadrill? That Starmie, Breloom, Garchomp, Greninja? They're gone. And it's that easy. The fact that Gengar can do that to a very decent effect is worrisome.

This means of support is invaluable to the many sweepers that are hard-walled by threats, too. Even if you're not using it for that support, just the fact that it can slowly but surely pick off Pokemon by Pokemon with that Shadow Tag and amazing Special Attack and Speed is superb. Speaking of which:

2. Base 170 Special Attack and base 130 Speed is phenomenal for a revenge killing trapper.

Even though it's slightly weaker than its Life Orb Gengar counterpart, the huge increase in Speed quite literally makes it the be-all-end-all of revenge killers. The threats that used to outpace it, such as Starmie, Greninja, Weavile, Alakazam, and Thundururs, are now outsped and all of them are roasted by its STAB attacks bar Focus Sash Alakazam. That base 170 Special Attack is nothing to scoff at either. Basically all of OU is either 2HKOed or OHKOed bar the specially defensive behemoths, most notably Chansey and Blissey. But wait, is Gengar actually "walled" by anything? It pretty much isn't because:

3. Destiny Bond and Taunt provide answers against many of Mega Gengar's checks and counters.

Destiny Bond/Taunt + 3 attacks is the Gengar set of choice currently. Each move allows it to accomplish various things. With Destiny Bond, no longer can it be revenge killed by Sucker Punch users, particularly Kangaskhan. They will be taken down with it the next turn if Gengar chooses to attack. Destiny Bond almost ensures Gengar gets at the bare minimum a total of 2 kills. It's first kill is from revenge killing something that is helplessly trapped, and kill two comes from Destiny Bonding the switch-in if it chooses to do so. Of course you can switch Gengar out, pick off something else later, and Destiny Bond then for 3, 4, or 5 kills. Who knows? In terms of Taunt, it turns Gengar to the epitome of stallbreaker. Not only can it obliterate physical walls such as Skarmory, opening up sweeps for your physical sweepers, it now has the ability to blow up Blissey, Chansey, and Togekiss, among other special walls, with Taunt. Now they can't paralyze you, Wish + Protect stall, or just heal up with Soft-Boiled or Roost. They have no choice but to succumb to Gengar's attacks which hits all of them super effectively. Defensive and stall teams are crapped on. Offensive teams are still crapped on. All team styles are crapped on.

4. Great number of switch-in opportunities.

Yes, Gengar is frail. Yes, Gengar loses an immunity to Ground. But that doesn't mean it can't switch in. It's actually really easy to bring Gengar unscathed. U-turn and Volt Switch cores are riddled in the metagame, being effectively used by Pokemon such as Talonflame, Rotom-W, Scizor, and Greninja. All of these Pokemon force switches like mad, meaning Gengar can often come in without taking any damage if the opponent switches in something it can take out, which can very well be the case. Talonflame lures in Tyranitar, Focus Blast that to death. Scizor lures in Gliscor, Shadow Ball that to death. It doesn't stop there. There's also "double switching" which is what also makes Gengar that much scarier. If your opponent predicts you to switch to something, in comes the switch to Gengar. Finally, Ghost/Poison is not a bad typing. Immunities to Normal and Fighting, which are pretty common actually, is great.

All in all, Mega Gengar has all of the tools it needs to be the #1 revenge killing trapper in the whole game, easily dismantling ANY team with its Shadow Tag, base 170 Special Attack and 130 Speed, perfect type coverage moves, and Destiny Bond/Taunt. This isn't even considering Perish Song or Pain Split, which will further increase Gengar's revenge killing potential. Ban Gengarite.

 

[anubite]

Maybe I just build the right teams, or something, because I've never had trouble with MegaGengar. Hell, a pokemon like Ninjask can deal with him thanks to night slash infiltrator outspeed (but I guess that's a moot point since 99.8% of OU players wouldn't consider using a pokemon like that anymore when they could just fill up their team with Ferrothorns and Ageislashes).

If MGengar is getting too strong, maybe it's time the metagame shift? I think a quickban is stupid, when the metagame is still growing up. If MGengar is too good, let's find out after three months of play. If people can't figure out how to deal with something as simple as a fragile ghost pokemon by then, go right ahead.

People put up with Stealth Rocks being allowed in all tiers, which severally constrain the number of usable viable pokemon by at least 75%. MGengar doesn't hardly constrain teams at all, in comparison to that.

Here's a potential counter to Perish Song gengar: It's called Sableye.

Prankster Taunt? Check
Sucker Punch? Check
Ghost so he isn't trapped by Shadow Tag? Check
Confuse Ray status? Check
Doesn't take SE damage from Shadow Ball? Check

There you go, one potential check right there. I don't know if Sableye is actually a good counter, but he's got all the right qualities, that's for sure. There are a multitude of options to counter something as simple as Shadow Tag + Perish Song + stall. Again, this set has basically always existed in the form of Politoed, who could surprise you with a Whirlpool, Perish Song, then protect/sub you to death - and he's bulky enough to pull this off pretty easily too. In-fact, you could have Dugtrio or Gothorita on your team and swap out on a lightning attack and still pin somebody in place until they die. If we're quick banning over a gimmicky set like this then Smogon has real problems ahead.

If MGengar is too good, it's a symptom of players building way too tanky. I laughed the other day as I encountered a team with five walls and a single sweeper. He literally would just keep swapping walls and try to wear me down for a sweep. These kind of strategies are just as fragile as those that rely on constant baton passing of boosts, shell smash, et cetera. MGengar with Perish Song is a good option for dealing with pokemon that are just too tanky to deal with in any other way. But MGengar itself is extremely weak to obvious counters. I mean, are people really complaining about this? Don't you at least have Earthquake on somebody with Sturdy or Focus Sash (and you surely have a spinner too?)? Don't you at least have pursuit or thief or bulletpunch on your Scizor? Don't you at least have a priority taunt or uturn/volt switch? Don't you at least have whirlwind or roar? If you're complaining that Gengar is killing one of your pokemon before you take it down... So what? It's a Mega Pokemon? If you can come out ahead killing a megapokemon, Nintendo really fucked up. They're supposed to be pretty damn threatening, but once you take them down you've secured a big advantage and can possibly clean up from there.

The only thing I've ever encountered in Pokemon to be so utterly broken that it required a quick ban was Moody. This doesn't even come close.

 

[Shroomisaur]

On a side note, I'm definitely more inclined to this thing getting an official suspect test. It's still pretty damn broken, but I don't think it's so obviously broken as Blaziken or Deoxys-N. To me, Perish Song is what stands out to me as broken on this thing, and because of this, I think this Mega deserves a test so we can properly evaluate what sets really push it over the edge.

I agree with this. Most people in favor of a quickban are citing Gengar's Perish Trap set, but the fact is that Perish Song is illegal until Pokebank.

I don't think we can "quickban" something based on a set that doesn't yet exist.

That said, Gengar's current best set of Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Destiny Bond / Taunt is incredible on its own, and is nearly guaranteed to take out two opposing Pokemon per match and walls are helpless against it. That set might be worthy of Ubers by itself, but I think it should get at least a brief suspect test / council decision.

 

[aquaspirit39]

I havent read what have been posted here but I just want to contribute a little bit here. I personally dont think Mega-Gengar is very powerful, in fact it never give me trouble really. Most of the time I just use my Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball to 2HKO it. With that speed and that low defence, even an uninvested Ferrothorn attack can take Mega-Gengar Focus Blast easily and kill it in return,

 

[Epikhairz]

OK, because Mega Gengar has Shadow Tag it has a grand total of zero counters. A counter is something that can switch in, take hits easily, and strike back hard (paraphrasing official definition here), but because literally nothing can switch in, it has zero counters. Basically, if Mega Gengar can come in on something that it can deal with (very common with its high SpA and Spe stats), that thing is going down. I am in favor of a quickban.

I've said this many times and I will say it again: No one likes Shadow Tag