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Formula 1 2013
- Thread starter The 1 and Only Lady Gaga
- Start date
People seem to forget that Vettel retired from the lead at Silverstone while Webber was only going to be around 4th-5th in Singapore, so the fortunes have been more than equalised for Webber. Heck, he remains the only driver (Along with Chilton) who has yet to outqualify his teammate on merit this season, the last time I saw a driver had this much dominance over his teammate was Kubica on Petrov in 2010 (Barring the obvious Alonso on Massa in 2012). I fail to understand why everyone turns a blind eye when Vettel gets afflicted with bad luck but as soon as Webber gets them the conspiracy theories start pouring in like a torrential flood >_> He's simply no match for Vettel (Bar 2010, and even then it's the year where Vettel bore the brunt of Red Bull's reliability issues) but apparently people can't accept that.
Seeing that Webber is one of the more popular drivers, I'll probably get a lot of hate for this (And this isn't even an F1 forum) but lately my dislike for him has grown pretty substantially. Lately with that whole 10-place grid penalty he has been bitching about on Twitter, like seriously just stop. Apparently he fails to understand that it wasn't hitching a ride that got him penalized per se, but rather because of safety issues; someone should remind him of what happened to Tom Pryce and another unfortunate track marshall back in the 70s... even then the only reason he got a penalty was attributed to the fact that he already had 2 previous reprimands and 3 strikes and you're out; that's a pre-determined rule before the season began so he doesn't really have the right to complain about it.
But of course, being Webber he just has to play the victim and gain audience sympathy/popularity since obviously most of them don't bother reading the details of the incident; this has already happened in Sepang 2013... not that I agree with what Vettel did, but what right does he have to moan and bitch about it given the fact that he himself disobeyed team orders at Silverstone 2011 and worse still, Interlagos 2012? What a hypocrite. But of course, most viewers of F1 have selective memories and continue supporting him regardless of his true colours; he would have made a great politician: Skilled at manipulating public opinion to support you >_> I will not even mention how he complains about supposed 'mistreatment' at Red Bull when that is NOT the case; he should just accept that he's no match for Vettel... Massa may be pretty sub-par now but at least he doesn't go around bitching and complaining that Alonso gets favouritism (Which is far more explicit and severe than the case of Red Bull, I don't see Webber moving over for Vettel).
End of rant, and now I shall shield myself from the legions of Webber fans who will probably send me death threats.
But of course, being Webber he just has to play the victim and gain audience sympathy/popularity since obviously most of them don't bother reading the details of the incident; this has already happened in Sepang 2013... not that I agree with what Vettel did, but what right does he have to moan and bitch about it given the fact that he himself disobeyed team orders at Silverstone 2011 and worse still, Interlagos 2012? What a hypocrite. But of course, most viewers of F1 have selective memories and continue supporting him regardless of his true colours; he would have made a great politician: Skilled at manipulating public opinion to support you >_> I will not even mention how he complains about supposed 'mistreatment' at Red Bull when that is NOT the case; he should just accept that he's no match for Vettel... Massa may be pretty sub-par now but at least he doesn't go around bitching and complaining that Alonso gets favouritism (Which is far more explicit and severe than the case of Red Bull, I don't see Webber moving over for Vettel).
End of rant, and now I shall shield myself from the legions of Webber fans who will probably send me death threats.
Rofl... You really need to read more articles on the shit Webber has gone through at Red Bull. The *entire* Red Bull car is designed around Vettel, then modified to fit Webber. Which is why he tends to get more issues with the car then Vettel does... Also Webber fucking hates the Pirelli tyres, much as Massa does (They were probably hurt more by that than anything else) and it does not suit Webbers style at all.
Either way, you can tell his motivation for F1 is pretty much entirely gone. It's not all that surprising, but I would love to see him go out with another win to his name and really show Vettel a turn of pace. Its there he just has to wield it.
I am kinda sad no other teams have shored up their lineups for drivers next season so far.... I was expecting a lot more stuff to be locked in and known about by this point. The titles over, its just the minor placings which people are scrapping over now. Lotus will likely stay ahead of McLaren, and Merc might beat Ferrari for second. After that its the usual suspects down the other end of the grid.
Either way, you can tell his motivation for F1 is pretty much entirely gone. It's not all that surprising, but I would love to see him go out with another win to his name and really show Vettel a turn of pace. Its there he just has to wield it.
I am kinda sad no other teams have shored up their lineups for drivers next season so far.... I was expecting a lot more stuff to be locked in and known about by this point. The titles over, its just the minor placings which people are scrapping over now. Lotus will likely stay ahead of McLaren, and Merc might beat Ferrari for second. After that its the usual suspects down the other end of the grid.
Even if that's the case, the same can be said for Alonso at Ferrari and Raikkonen at Lotus, but I hardly see (if at all) Massa or Grosjean complaining about it because the reason certain drivers get favouritism is because they're the better driver... even then the fact that Webber wasn't told to move over for Vettel (Unlike Massa for Alonso numerous times or Grosjean for Raikkonen) should show that equality at Red Bull is considerably better than it is at Ferrari or Lotus; the only time I recall favouritism was the front wing for Silverstone 2010. Like I said, Webber just knows how to manipulate public opinion. And again, enough of 'Webber has more issues than Vettel' because that's not true, read the link to F1Fanatic I posted earlier: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1/forum/topic/vettel-webber-and-reliability-at-red-bull/ I seriously do not know where people get that idea from, other than blind irrational hatred for Vettel and/or fanatical support for Webber. In case nobody noticed, Vettel had 9 (?) race-ending mechanical failures to Webber's 4 (?) from the time they were together in 2009 to the Singapore GP this year so if anything Vettel's the one getting the short end of the stick. If there's one thing I can give him credit for, it's that he spoke out against the booing Vettel keeps receiving (Along with obviously Red Bull principal Christian Horner, Hamilton, Niki Lauda and even those in charge of Ferrari such as Stefano Domenicali and Luca di Montezemelo).
But that aside, I'm rooting for Mercedes to beat Ferrari for 2nd, Rosberg is a far more competitive teammate than Massa and has fared better against Hamilton than most of us would have expected... maybe it's just me, but the only team that can match Red Bull's sheer pace deserves to be 2nd IMO. I hope Button can get a podium, otherwise it would be really embarrassing for McLaren (Not that it already isn't), the main reason (If not only) they're ahead of Force India is due to those tyre changes after what happened at the British Grand Prix... I really do feel for Force India, they were doing so well back then.
But that aside, I'm rooting for Mercedes to beat Ferrari for 2nd, Rosberg is a far more competitive teammate than Massa and has fared better against Hamilton than most of us would have expected... maybe it's just me, but the only team that can match Red Bull's sheer pace deserves to be 2nd IMO. I hope Button can get a podium, otherwise it would be really embarrassing for McLaren (Not that it already isn't), the main reason (If not only) they're ahead of Force India is due to those tyre changes after what happened at the British Grand Prix... I really do feel for Force India, they were doing so well back then.
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So Webber got a pole position, admittedly Vettel had a KERS problem, but who cares? If Webber could maybe get a good start for once, he could win a grand prix before the end of the year which would be nice for him I suppose... Vettel's obviously got the championship whether Alonso can make up his mind about that or not.
Vettel was only a tenth behind Webber despite the lack of KERS and on average KERS gives you about 0.3-0.5s a lap, so there's little doubt Vettel would have taken pole were it not for the KERS issue, especially with the way he has trounced Webber in qualifying for all of 2013 until Suzuka. Had it been the other way round I bet rotten tomatoes would be hurled at Vettel... oh wait they already are, since Vettel can do no right while Webber can do no wrong in the eyes of many so-called F1 fans >_>
Vettel wins (again), but it's a lot less straightforward... I don't know how anyone can still deny his abilities (Unless they're that delusional) but he basically did a Prost with all that strategic battling, I believe an article on F1Fanatic will give an in-depth explanation to this. Not to mention he did a Senna in Singapore and probably a lot of other races, if he has any flaws with his driving then I don't see it given that he could possess the characteristics of 2 drivers rated so highly but for different reasons.
But that aside, the star of Suzuka was Grosjean, the way both Red Bulls were sleeping at the start made it easier but he capitalized on that to hang on to the lead for as long as possible, and the fact that Alonso in 4th was over 30 seconds behind is a testament to his impressive driving, he might have even been able to hold off Webber for 2nd were it not for the lapped cars considering that he was doing just fine for 6 laps. A pity he denied a Red Bull showdown for the lead but we can't fault him for that since he was merely doing his job. He has come a long way from his crash-prone days, losing Raikkonen may not be such a big issue for Lotus after all. If the Big 4 were taken, my choice of drivers would definitely be Hulkenberg and either Grosjean/Button/Rosberg if based solely on skill.
Vettel wins (again), but it's a lot less straightforward... I don't know how anyone can still deny his abilities (Unless they're that delusional) but he basically did a Prost with all that strategic battling, I believe an article on F1Fanatic will give an in-depth explanation to this. Not to mention he did a Senna in Singapore and probably a lot of other races, if he has any flaws with his driving then I don't see it given that he could possess the characteristics of 2 drivers rated so highly but for different reasons.
But that aside, the star of Suzuka was Grosjean, the way both Red Bulls were sleeping at the start made it easier but he capitalized on that to hang on to the lead for as long as possible, and the fact that Alonso in 4th was over 30 seconds behind is a testament to his impressive driving, he might have even been able to hold off Webber for 2nd were it not for the lapped cars considering that he was doing just fine for 6 laps. A pity he denied a Red Bull showdown for the lead but we can't fault him for that since he was merely doing his job. He has come a long way from his crash-prone days, losing Raikkonen may not be such a big issue for Lotus after all. If the Big 4 were taken, my choice of drivers would definitely be Hulkenberg and either Grosjean/Button/Rosberg if based solely on skill.
Pfffft... Red Bull Engineered Webber losing at Suzuka...
Looking at splits, tyres and lap times compared to the whole race (and the race footage itself), what they have spun out of it is utter fucking lies. Horner said Webber was being harder on his tyres, there was no tyre drop off on Webbers car before any of hits pitstops (especially the third). This flies in the face of race footage which never shows Webber locking up/making mistakes whereas Vettel was having lock ups seemingly every other lap at some points. Red Bull also gave a brand new set of Prime Pirelli's back (Which could of gone on Webbers car at stop 2). Webber was 15 seconds ahead of Vettel at that point in the race...
I would not mind if it had been an obvious "Let Vettel Win" or "We are doing this for the championship" but they way they are manufacturing wins against his team mate is disgusting. Then claiming Webber had issues which totally did not exist. :|
Looking at splits, tyres and lap times compared to the whole race (and the race footage itself), what they have spun out of it is utter fucking lies. Horner said Webber was being harder on his tyres, there was no tyre drop off on Webbers car before any of hits pitstops (especially the third). This flies in the face of race footage which never shows Webber locking up/making mistakes whereas Vettel was having lock ups seemingly every other lap at some points. Red Bull also gave a brand new set of Prime Pirelli's back (Which could of gone on Webbers car at stop 2). Webber was 15 seconds ahead of Vettel at that point in the race...
I would not mind if it had been an obvious "Let Vettel Win" or "We are doing this for the championship" but they way they are manufacturing wins against his team mate is disgusting. Then claiming Webber had issues which totally did not exist. :|
To be honest, I don't buy any of it; read this:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/10/13/2013-japanese-grand-prix-tyre-strategies-and-pit-stops-2/
To put it bluntly, these conspiracy theories that we keep coming up with are nothing more than a load of bollocks that need to stop ASAP. Why does almost everyone try so hard to make up excuses for Webber? Webber is simply no match for Vettel, and the only reason he outqualified Vettel for the first time in 15 tries this season was due to Vettel's KERS issue. Is it really that hard to accept this blatantly obvious fact? If he were on a two-stop he would have chewed his tyres and lost like 3 seconds a lap, likely losing places to both Vettel and Grosjean and then we would all still come up with conspiracy theories about favouring Vettel >_> Oh, need I mention that if they always wanted Vettel to win, would they have told him to stay behind Webber at Sepang? As I said before, to most of us Vettel is the devil while Webber is a saint no matter what they do. Besides, he still had the chance to win on a 3-stop but his inability to get past Grosjean as easily as Vettel was his undoing. Furthermore, Webber himself is known to be pretty vocal about these sort of issues so you'd think he would have brought it up if he knew something was amiss, wouldn't you? Especially when he doesn't have to worry about retaining his seat.
That aside... Grosjean's upward swing in performance means that Ferrari/Mercedes/Lotus are embroiled in a heated battle for 2nd in the WCC. For our own sake, we'd better hope Lotus comes in 2nd or at least 3rd; that would ease their financial burden and almost guarantee that Hulkenberg will get that seat and not Massa. For a team that's mired in financial difficulty they're really punching above their weight, being able to pose a strong threat to Ferrari and Mercedes who are not suffering from financial issues; kudos to Lotus.
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I'm very sad to say that it appears Lotus are choosing Maldonado over Hulkenberg. Probably a combination of sponsorship and 2014 driver weight issues.
Only places that leaves for hulk are McLaren (where Sergio is doing a v good job at the moment), Williams (looks like its going to Massa) or back to Force India again.
Only places that leaves for hulk are McLaren (where Sergio is doing a v good job at the moment), Williams (looks like its going to Massa) or back to Force India again.
Yeah, it appears they are :/ But Maldonado is actually pretty talented despite his pay-driver label, how else did he win in a Williams while having several top 4 starts in 2012? He has the raw speed, just a lack of racecraft and tendency to be involved in collisions... but if Grosjean can learn from them I see no reason why Maldonado can't. Still, Hulkenberg is the better driver any day of the week and IMO deserves the Lotus seat far more than Maldonado.
Maybe for Maldonado (And even he's getting better), but in case you haven't noticed, Grosjean has been on a pretty impressive streak lately, tracing from the German Grand Prix this year; any criticisms about him being accident-prone now are outdated and unwarranted... I'd like to see him up against the Hulk, that would make a pretty formidable team at Lotus.
Its criminal if Lotus take Maldanado Millions over Hulkenberg talent.
Hulk is one of the really up and coming guys, with some different carreer moves he could of been in the McLaren this year... I am genuinely surprised at how Grosjean has seemingly come of age, the long wheelbase car is really working well for him (His first corner at Dubai was incredible).
Also... yay i guess for vettel? >_> really starting to get to me now how much hes winning. Like, i expected this year to be tight, but hes equalled Schueys record of 13 wins in a season... :(
Hulk is one of the really up and coming guys, with some different carreer moves he could of been in the McLaren this year... I am genuinely surprised at how Grosjean has seemingly come of age, the long wheelbase car is really working well for him (His first corner at Dubai was incredible).
Also... yay i guess for vettel? >_> really starting to get to me now how much hes winning. Like, i expected this year to be tight, but hes equalled Schueys record of 13 wins in a season... :(
Totally agreed with the part on Hulkenberg, Maldonado does have some talent (Especially for a paydriver) but in no way is he better than the Hulk... then again I can't say I blame Lotus if they do take Maldonado, I mean finances are needed to survive after all.
Regarding Vettel, if he didn't deserve the 2012 championship (Alonso was the better driver that year) he certainly deserves this one; his metronomic consistency and ability to make Webber look pretty ordinary with the same car (Nonsensical conspiracy theories aside) should say enough, I mean in 2002 and 2004 Barrichello was comfortably 2nd while Webber is all the way down in 5th; IMO he's done enough to be classified along the likes of Prost and Senna... I actually hope he can equal Ascari's record of 9 wins in a row. It's understandable if some find it boring, but we don't see someone breaking records like Vettel is doing everday, so I'm just seeing how far ge can go.
Speaking of records, Chilton is on course to finish every race of his rookie season; he'll set a record if he does accomplish that, not a bad consolation given how Bianchi has thrashed him so far :P Kovalainen was pretty close in 2007, only to retire in the last race with mechanical issues.
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Massa has signed a deal with Williams. How the hell his guys managed to secure a three year contract... I'll never know. Would be nice to see Williams do well with the changes though, just because it's the team I grew up supporting (still love you Ralf).
Also, Kimi's not racing in the last two races because of surgery. Could quite viably slip from 3rd to 6th, which would be a serious injustice. :(
Also, Kimi's not racing in the last two races because of surgery. Could quite viably slip from 3rd to 6th, which would be a serious injustice. :(
Goodbye Maldonado, it seems... Massa seems to be following the path of Barrichello and ever since Raikkonen took over his Ferrari seat, he has seen some improvement. Lotus may as well forget about 2nd and 3rd in the WCC, Grosjean alone cannot drag Lotus up the standings; whoever that takes over his seat (I presume Valsecchi) will probably be inexperienced and thus we should not get our hopes up.
You can't help but wonder why would Ferrari want Raikkonen back, given their obvious 'Number #1' driver policy and Raikkonen's not-so-amicable split at the end of 2009. I suspect that not getting paid also contributed to him not racing for the last 2 races, not that anyone can blame him though. If Lotus doesn't end up 4th in the WCC I'll eat my hat; Fisi almost won in a Force India only to be nowhere near Raikkonen's gearbox upon joining Ferrari in mid-season, so I don't see how Raikkonen's replacement can do much but if he can then be my guest.
I am seriously shocked Williams can't find a better driver... Especially with the news Perez has been kicked out of McLaren! I hope McLaren know what they are gambling here, I'd hate to see Perez's career destroyed because of one season in a very off the boil Macca! They reckon they have another Hamilton on their hands... But not even Hamilton would of been able to get results much better than what Button has done this year.
Silly season is getting a bit too silly at the moment. I don't think we will know for 100% who is going to be where until the guys line up in Melbourne.
About Lotus, I'm not so sure. Fisi fitted that FI well, AND the FI was one of the best cars at Spa (And Monza). I think it was a cumilnation of things and Fisi moving over he couldn't get the Ferrari to work at all (Much like Badoer couldn't). It might have been Raikkonens driving style beating the every loving death into the Ferrari which allowed him to get that performance.
Yes, Perez getting kicked out of McLaren was an injustice, and the worst part of it all is that the news arrived right after he started getting the better of Button... Whitmarsh made a bad choice IMO.
And Kovalainen's return was nothing short of disappointing, granted he had to put up with a KERS failure and front wing damage but while Grosjean beat a Red Bull fair and square you'd expect him to do better than lose 4 places at the start. Lotus will need some luck and something inspiring from Kovalainen if they hope to snatch 3rd from Ferrari; IMO they should have picked Valsecchi. Like hello, why else would you have a reserve driver?
And Kovalainen's return was nothing short of disappointing, granted he had to put up with a KERS failure and front wing damage but while Grosjean beat a Red Bull fair and square you'd expect him to do better than lose 4 places at the start. Lotus will need some luck and something inspiring from Kovalainen if they hope to snatch 3rd from Ferrari; IMO they should have picked Valsecchi. Like hello, why else would you have a reserve driver?
Well, tbh, what do you expect from a driver coming into the team at the end of the season, to just jump in the car and start pulling podiums? Anyways, great job from Webber, am very sad to see him go. Sad that Massa had that penalty, Ferrari might've just managed to beat Mercedes w/o it.
Nope, but he should have at least scored some points, Lotus hired him for that reason and clearly Kovalainen has disappointed. You can only imagine the rage Valsecchi must be feeling, he should leave Lotus since they obviously don't care about him; Lotus might as well have not hired anyone for the last 2 races.
Both Massa and Hamilton received rather controversial penalties so in the end I doubt it affected the Ferrari/Mercedes duel.
Both Massa and Hamilton received rather controversial penalties so in the end I doubt it affected the Ferrari/Mercedes duel.
Shame that Red Bull still managed to fuck over Webber in his last race :( At least he got a Podium out of it and joins a fairly small bunch of poeple to finish on the podium at the last race they do in F1. I hope he does superbly in Sports Cars :)
Kind of a meh race really, really interesting from the McLarens having such shocking quali pace in the wet, but being one of the quickest cars out there in the race. We barely see that sort of thing anymore! A valiant try from Rosberg to keep Vettel at bay for at least a lap, but it didn't happen :(
I might write a proper season review tonight :o
Kind of a meh race really, really interesting from the McLarens having such shocking quali pace in the wet, but being one of the quickest cars out there in the race. We barely see that sort of thing anymore! A valiant try from Rosberg to keep Vettel at bay for at least a lap, but it didn't happen :(
I might write a proper season review tonight :o