It's pokes like this that make me love my Magic Bouncing Espeon with DazzGlee :D
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Pokémon Kangaskhan
- Thread starter The Leprechaun
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It's pokes like this that make me love my Magic Bouncing Espeon with DazzGlee :D
Thing about Espeon is, it's an obvious switch-in, and Sableye is always carrying a high-BP super effective STAB. Espeon can lower its Atk to the absolute minimum to cut the damage, but it'll still take a lot, even if it forces Sableye out afterward.
Wait, why are we talking Espeon vs. Sableye in a Kangaskhan thread?
Don't forget the Knock Off buff, making it a viable STAB option over Foul Play. Sableye is up there with Rotom-W and Klefki in terms of sheer annoyance right now. It can and will mess you up.
I just want to say, for all of you Megaskhan users running like Return/PUP/EQ/Sucker Punch or whatever the norm is right now-- you guys need to start running Ice Punch or more likely Fire Punch, or Trevenant laughs in your face. Fire Punch should probably be considered one of the better options on him right now, in fact.
Ugh why'm I giving up a perfectly good advantage over most dumb megakang users I mean most people probably know this anyway but whatever
Ugh why'm I giving up a perfectly good advantage over most dumb megakang users I mean most people probably know this anyway but whatever
Yes, most people know that (I would hope so anyway) since it's been discussed before. The elemental punches are illegal until Pokebank, which is probably why EQ seems standard, although if Pokebank Megakahns are still using it exclusively... I don't know what to tell you. Fire Punch hits a lot of things Kanga wants, Ferro, Skarm, Trevenant/Gourgeist. It misses out on Heatran and is another Direct Contact move, so EQ (and Crunch) are still good options.
Speaking of Direct Contact, I noted a few pages ago (before this thread turned into a Sableye discussion...) that most teams are packing multiple counters to Kanga, and those often include Rocky Helmet users. I've even seen 2 Rocky Helmets on the same team. Rocky Helmet isn't a bad item by any means, but it's funny that Kanga has caused it to suddenly explode in usage. Knock Off will be a great option in Pokebank (over Crunch) to reduce that problem.
ok I will say it once again, why not run knock off on mega kanga? stops ghosts and rocky helmet pokes, and thanks to the buff it got this gen it hits decently. Is there a reason this suggestion keeps being passed over which I dont know about?
Oh man, I had almost forgotten. That powerful Foul Play is really useful on switch-ins though, but with the Knock Off buff, Sableye can wreck pretty much any stall team with will-o-wisp+recover.
I loved using Sableye in BW, and it just gets better for the little devil. I have been testing him in Pokebank OU and there has never been a match where Sableye didn't do something crucial. Priority Taunt and Will-o-wisp are always useful.
I run Fire Punch on Megaskhan and it's saved me a bunch of times. The only issue is I'm forced to run a cleric because burns render her useless as crap.
Bulky Togekiss makes an effective partner for Kangaskhan, she 4x resists Fighting now, resists Knock Off/Foul Play from Sableye, KOs with Dazzling Gleam and doesn't care about being burned, and she can even Wish Pass and Heal Bell for MKang.
Bold
252 hp / 170 def / 88 spa
Wish, Heal Bell, Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam
The EVs lets her OHKO max HP Sableye with Dazzling Gleam.
She can also beat those weird sets like Rocky Helmet Garchomp
And 3HKOs max HP/Def Ferrothorn (Max Sdef is a 4hko)
88 SpA Life Orb Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 118-140 (33.5 - 39.7%)
While Gyro Ball is not a risk to Togekiss
0- Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (54) vs. 252 HP / 170+ Def Togekiss: 84-98 (22.4 - 26.2%)
Anything fast enough to get a burn in past the smackdown Mega-K will deliver is worth it, since it can't Sucker Punch for priority, and if it's a Ghost Type, it can't Fake Out either- only accept the status effect and have someone else deal with it. Choice Scarf Rotom-H is nice along those lines as well- if you can outspeed and not take a priority hit, you can debuff it and then either die (if it Crunches) or switch safely (if it's got EQ instead and can't really touch you unless you use an actual attacking move) with it's big punch considerably un-punchy after the burn debuff.
Why is Ferro running a -atk nature? And does that calculation take into consideration that Gyro Ball is super effective vs Kiss in Gen 6?
Ahh, accident hitting the -atk nature.
Also this is Showdown's calc which does account for Fairy Typing, here is a much more accurate Brave calc
0+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (103) vs. 252 HP / 170+ Def Togekiss: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%)
Changes things a lot ofc, however I still believe Kiss makes a great partner for Khan. Also if useage of Ferrothorn is high, you can slash Flamethrower over Air Slash and Togekiss will be able to deal with Ferrothorn much better.
Because mega kang is bulky but lacks recovery outside of Drain Punch/Wish sets which unless you're running a pure bulky set isn't ideal for offense. In this case you can switch Togekiss in on Sableye, Wish, then switch to Kang to get the wish. This is prediction heavy but this lets a MKang/Kiss core maintain momentum against a team that has Sableye.
I kind of feel bad for ever bringing up the whole Sableye vs Scrappy Kangaskhan thing now :(. You're right Nitzudono, PuP does really shitty damage to Def+ Sableye (22.3 - 26.9%). Regardless, I still feel that until the elemental punches are released or until Crunch and Sucker Punch are used together commonly, SubDisable Gengar will be most common, viable, and useful counter to Mega-Kanga. Not saying that makes Sableye bad (as a UU player, I know it is good), just IMO it's not worth the team slot at the moment considering that special-oriented fairy types and Charizard-Y laugh at it.
Also, not that I want to continue the whole Scrappy Kanga vs Sableye argument since some people acted like I was bashing it, but I was really surprised at this calc: 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%). I'm not saying that means that Kanga destroys Sableye any time soon; I'm just impressed it can do that much before mega-evolving and without a boosting item.
Also, not that I want to continue the whole Scrappy Kanga vs Sableye argument since some people acted like I was bashing it, but I was really surprised at this calc: 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%). I'm not saying that means that Kanga destroys Sableye any time soon; I'm just impressed it can do that much before mega-evolving and without a boosting item.
It's good to challenge other opinions because that's where you find flaws. If an idea stands up to scrutiny than imo it's a good idea. I feel that Sableye does stand up to scrutiny, but we can also look at stuff that does beat Sableye without influencing match-ups elsewhere. So Togekiss is a good option at the moment since it's one of the better Fairy types and also can switch in on fighting attacks aimed at Kang.
Really, that's crappy damage unburned against Sableye and falls neatly into will-o-wisp+recover territory. Also recoil damage aids the burn stalling. It's only a 2HKO if you switch into a Scrappy Double-Edge and Will-o-wisp misses, and besides, who the poop carries Double-Edge over Return?
However, Most Sableye don't invest in Defense that much, most are Specially Defensive. If you still have that calc up, try the set from BW UU against Double-Edge.
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Dude Bro 420, you're really just being a negative nancy for no reason. I said I was surprised, not "Kanga OHKOs Sableye." That wasn't even the main point of my post. Also, I think 2HKOing a Physically Defensive Sableye with only 95 base attack and no band or life orb IS impressive. With hazards and previous damage, that damage looks pretty deadly too.
Lastly, I don't even use Kanga on my team, but I have noticed some people using Double Edge. I'm not saying that its the best move to have, but it is useful for assuring KOs on certain walls. So, no need to jump all over my posts especially since I made it clear I did not want more Sableye talk(or at least talk resulting from my statements) to take over a thread about KANGASKHAN. #endofsableyediscussionplease
BUT since you asked, Double Edge or Return vs 252/0 Def Calm Sableye is 72.3 - 85.1% or 61.5 - 73% respectively which means that Kanga should win if Sableye switches in on one of these attacks especially with hazards or previous damage.
No problem Dude Bro 420 :). I guess people can use Sableye if they want. I'll be doing just fine with my SubDisable Gengar that might become the dominant set anyway once Mega-Gengar gets banned.
Lastly, I don't even use Kanga on my team, but I have noticed some people using Double Edge. I'm not saying that its the best move to have, but it is useful for assuring KOs on certain walls. So, no need to jump all over my posts especially since I made it clear I did not want more Sableye talk(or at least talk resulting from my statements) to take over a thread about KANGASKHAN. #endofsableyediscussionplease
BUT since you asked, Double Edge or Return vs 252/0 Def Calm Sableye is 72.3 - 85.1% or 61.5 - 73% respectively which means that Kanga should win if Sableye switches in on one of these attacks especially with hazards or previous damage.
No problem Dude Bro 420 :). I guess people can use Sableye if they want. I'll be doing just fine with my SubDisable Gengar that might become the dominant set anyway once Mega-Gengar gets banned.
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Well sorry if you sensed negativity that wasn't there, I was only scrutinizing the calc because we're trying to find out if Sableye is really a reliable counter to Kenga. That's the only reason Sableye is the talk of the thread currently, we're looking for reliable counters.
Also, the average Calm Sableye still invests 120 EVs in Defense.
Best set imo is 252hp/252def Bold (his atk doesn't matter unless you use Knock Off and this helps vs other Sableyes)
Sableye relies on Wisp for his physical bulk not his base stats. The combination of def/hp/burn is what makes Sableye so fat. So investing in special weakens that role and ruins many matchups (specifically MKang's maxatk EQ barely fits under Recover+Lefties). Without that he's dead weight. Use another mon to wall special attacks, or use Klefki who still hurts MKang, just not as much as Sableye does.
I was thinking the same thing actually. After running some calcs though, you can get away with Calm and about 200 EVs invested in Defense.
Sableye is definitely a damn good check to Mega Kangaskhan and is a very useful pokemon in a meta filled with physical sweeper.
None of Mega Kang's move can 2HKO Sableye after WoW.
I actually think physically defensive Mandibuzz with Foul Play also does decently well as a check.
Mandibuzz doesn't really care about Sucker Punch or Crunch, immune to Earthquake, can tank Return reasonably well, and threaten Kangaskhan with Foul Play.
None of Mega Kang's move can 2HKO Sableye after WoW.
I actually think physically defensive Mandibuzz with Foul Play also does decently well as a check.
Mandibuzz doesn't really care about Sucker Punch or Crunch, immune to Earthquake, can tank Return reasonably well, and threaten Kangaskhan with Foul Play.
You'd think so, but trust me, it's not. Just like Gliscor and Hippowdon seem to be good checks, but they aren't either. Megakahn will simply PuP to +2 on the switch and then demolish your team from there:
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 370-438 (87.4 - 103.5%)
That's why having a reliable Ghost-type is essential for containing Mega Kangaskahn. If the Megakahn user sees that he's free to PuP away, that's exactly what he will do. The only other alternative is letting it suicide against things like Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Garchomp, and Skarmory. If it does get a boost, it can be revenged by fast, powerful Dark-resists, like Mega Lucario, or Talonflame once it's taken some damage.
Anyway, can we please stop with the Sableye banter? We already know it's one of few best counters around, and last I checked this IS the Kangaskahn discussion, not Sableye :)
Yeah, so besides the Rocky Helmet users what are the best ways to check MKang without a ghost type?
Actually I think Ghost Type might not even be a reliable answer to Kangaskhan either.
Kangaskhan usually carries 2 out of Sucker Punch, Earthquake, and Crunch.
When you don't even know whether he has Crunch or not, it's hard to say ghost type does well to check Kangaskhan.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 240-285 (64.3 - 76.4%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 177-210 (47.3 - 56.1%)
Carrying ghost type just means that Kangaskhan can't just abuse Power Up Punch. I'm not even sure if this thing really has a real counter.
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