80 attack is quite low for a Pokemon that lacks a power-up move of any sort (besides Charge Beam) or even a STAB that hits something super-effectively (normal STABs won't quite do). "Early Return" doesn't mean a whole lot considering Return is really weak early on and takes a bit of time to be powered up. By the time Return is at its strongest, your other mons should be dealing higher damage through super-effective attacks.
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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
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Farfetch'd in D seems okay just because it is probably the best Pokemon to pulverize the first gym. It can hold on for a little while, but honestly seeing it beyond D is pushing it.
Gyarados in A is tricky because it has to train further than Charmander / Charmeleon for Dragon Rage (Level 23) and Gyarados's movepool is pretty bad until Aqua Tail arrives at 35. You have access to TMs through Rock Tomb and Bulldoze which helps... alas, A Tier Gyarados is hard to believe when you still have a really bad 5 Level rut where you do absolutely nothing. B seems a bit more fitting because of that... but I did open opportunities for A so I'm not going to fight too hard on it.
Furfrou - I think I originally said D/C. Maybe I said C. STAB Headbutt helps for a while and it at least is one of the most durable Pokemon you'll have for a while. Its movepool is okay. Nothing spectacular, but gets the job done. Definitely will be dropped off later for better Pokemon, but it does stand slightly above most of the Normal-types.
Gyarados in A is tricky because it has to train further than Charmander / Charmeleon for Dragon Rage (Level 23) and Gyarados's movepool is pretty bad until Aqua Tail arrives at 35. You have access to TMs through Rock Tomb and Bulldoze which helps... alas, A Tier Gyarados is hard to believe when you still have a really bad 5 Level rut where you do absolutely nothing. B seems a bit more fitting because of that... but I did open opportunities for A so I'm not going to fight too hard on it.
Furfrou - I think I originally said D/C. Maybe I said C. STAB Headbutt helps for a while and it at least is one of the most durable Pokemon you'll have for a while. Its movepool is okay. Nothing spectacular, but gets the job done. Definitely will be dropped off later for better Pokemon, but it does stand slightly above most of the Normal-types.
Yeah conceding that Farfetch'd is worth a D-Tier. I guess it is one of the better "jokemons", & it does have utility in the first gym, although those who trade for theirs will have fun with an ignorant Farfetch'd in the first gym to compensate for faster growth. And then there is always its treasured Cut + Fly HM Slave utility, as well as decent power for the early-game.
Magikarp is probably better off in B. Remember how much backtracking you need to do to get the Magikarp from getting the Old Rod, & that five level rut, then being stuck with Bite until Level 23 before Dragon Rage, which only barely 2HKOes at that point. But it does get going, yes, just that it is a lot like Ralts in terms of how bad it initially is.
Colonel M has pretty much covered Furfrou, just remember that Base 80 Attack is great early on, especially with Headbutt, but then it starts to taper off a fair bit as the game goes on, as Base 80 Attack is middling at best. Basically a case of the early game Fully Evolved syndrome where it is very powerful very early, but then everyone else catches up & possibly surpasses later on. It does have bulk, yes, but on a tier list where you want to be taking out things as fast & as efficiently as possible... C-Tier feels appropriate.
Any opinions/objections on the other proposed placements?
Magikarp is probably better off in B. Remember how much backtracking you need to do to get the Magikarp from getting the Old Rod, & that five level rut, then being stuck with Bite until Level 23 before Dragon Rage, which only barely 2HKOes at that point. But it does get going, yes, just that it is a lot like Ralts in terms of how bad it initially is.
Colonel M has pretty much covered Furfrou, just remember that Base 80 Attack is great early on, especially with Headbutt, but then it starts to taper off a fair bit as the game goes on, as Base 80 Attack is middling at best. Basically a case of the early game Fully Evolved syndrome where it is very powerful very early, but then everyone else catches up & possibly surpasses later on. It does have bulk, yes, but on a tier list where you want to be taking out things as fast & as efficiently as possible... C-Tier feels appropriate.
Any opinions/objections on the other proposed placements?
The amount of backtracking is nothing big, and you're guaranteed to fish out only Magikarps and nothing else. 5 levels is a very short time, and you could compare Magikarp's 5 levels of being unplayable to Scatterbug's 8 levels where it wishes something could fight for it before it's become Vivillion (the best it can do is just spore and switch out). You also have double battles when the L15 Magikarp shows up - switch it out and you get experience for two Pokemon at once. The 2 Furfrou battle before the second badge should give Magikarp 2 levels alone.
When Magikarp evolves, it immediately has Bite, Bulldoze, Rock Smash, Strength and Payback (for fast mons) at its disposal, and will power up Return fairly soon (Magikarp is so easy to catch with a Luxury Ball).
Comparing it to Charmeleon may not be the wisest idea as Charmeleon is a second tier form, while Gyarados's base stats are the highest it will ever have (since you can't mega-evolve it) and are monstrous in relation to the point of the game when it is evolved. Gyarados doesn't need Dragon Rage to keep 2HKOing; Charmeleon does.
I'd say it loses only to a few select mons like Zangoose and Absol in terms of midgame performance, and it has far better typing and endgame potential than either of the two.
And then its endgame is some of the best you can have, with an early Dragon Dance, Aqua Tail/Ice Fang, Thrash from tutor, and at the finish line Earthquake and Waterfall for added reliability.
It just doesn't make sense that Gyarados is in B while Vivillion is A; should be the other way around.
When Magikarp evolves, it immediately has Bite, Bulldoze, Rock Smash, Strength and Payback (for fast mons) at its disposal, and will power up Return fairly soon (Magikarp is so easy to catch with a Luxury Ball).
Comparing it to Charmeleon may not be the wisest idea as Charmeleon is a second tier form, while Gyarados's base stats are the highest it will ever have (since you can't mega-evolve it) and are monstrous in relation to the point of the game when it is evolved. Gyarados doesn't need Dragon Rage to keep 2HKOing; Charmeleon does.
I'd say it loses only to a few select mons like Zangoose and Absol in terms of midgame performance, and it has far better typing and endgame potential than either of the two.
And then its endgame is some of the best you can have, with an early Dragon Dance, Aqua Tail/Ice Fang, Thrash from tutor, and at the finish line Earthquake and Waterfall for added reliability.
It just doesn't make sense that Gyarados is in B while Vivillion is A; should be the other way around.
About Zangoose, while C doesn't seem that innacurate, I feel B-tier is a bit more appropriate. I've wrote an entry about it and really, it has some serious arguments. 110 ATK, 90 Speed, STAB Slash / Return - replace when needed - mixed with coverage moves like Shadow Claw, Power-Up Punch/Rock Smash/Close Combat, Aerial Ace, X-Scissor, with Swords Dance, and you have a deadly sweeper capable of OHKO many things. Granted, its defenses are low, it's more like a high risk/high reward Pokemon - with the reward higher than the risk.
I guess this is directed at Its_A_Random as well, but I wrote up full experiences with Meditite and Helioptile (they were a while ago, so I understand if they got lost in the shuffle). I rated them both B.
While I can sorta see a C rank for Meditite (he can theoretically muscle through everything but his speed and move-relearner crutch are issues), I would argue Helioptile higher than D rank at least. I guess I see Froakie/Greninja at B tier and view Heliolisk as almost as fast but stronger version with similar coverage and an earlier evolution (right before third gym for sure, and there's nothing worth waiting for in his moveset).
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The key differences between Scatterbug and Magikarp are pretty hard to compare with too since, aside from your starter and rare type advantages, no one is immediately shutting down things. But I honestly think Scatterbug alone is way too damn high.
Magikarp's major issue is, at that point, you likely have better coverage and stuff to at least 2HKO / possibly OHKO. Magikarp needing switches to gain levels is also horribly inefficient and also means EXP is shared between two Pokemon. Furfrou battle helps it, but there are many Pokemon who would love that extra EXP over sharing it with someone that contributes absolutely nothing for 5 levels. Sure it may just be 5 levels to Scatterbug's 8, but even Scatterbug can aid the team with Stun Spore. Not that it says much honestly since both are horribly inefficient pre-evolution.
Also, the reason it is compared to Charmander / meleon is also because it has access to those attacks as well (okay not Bite) but has a workable STAB to it as well. Yes Ember is by no means a steroid attack, but it still helps with eliminating Grass-types and co. It isnt necessarily meant as a direct comparison so much as pointing out how much later Gyarados receives a move that can really help it muscle out of situations.
Magikarp in B is a lot more accurate than A (and if Scatterbug is in A knock that down to B at best too).
Magikarp's major issue is, at that point, you likely have better coverage and stuff to at least 2HKO / possibly OHKO. Magikarp needing switches to gain levels is also horribly inefficient and also means EXP is shared between two Pokemon. Furfrou battle helps it, but there are many Pokemon who would love that extra EXP over sharing it with someone that contributes absolutely nothing for 5 levels. Sure it may just be 5 levels to Scatterbug's 8, but even Scatterbug can aid the team with Stun Spore. Not that it says much honestly since both are horribly inefficient pre-evolution.
Also, the reason it is compared to Charmander / meleon is also because it has access to those attacks as well (okay not Bite) but has a workable STAB to it as well. Yes Ember is by no means a steroid attack, but it still helps with eliminating Grass-types and co. It isnt necessarily meant as a direct comparison so much as pointing out how much later Gyarados receives a move that can really help it muscle out of situations.
Magikarp in B is a lot more accurate than A (and if Scatterbug is in A knock that down to B at best too).
Orr… Maybe they should be in the same tier? (Namely, B) They honestly seem pretty comparable in their badness before evolution and their relative reliance on boosting moves (which I think we decided aren't that great for in-game since most trainers have three or less Pokemon).
Your starter is not shutting down much either; have a look at how the starters are currently tiered - C/A/B respectively. RBY ones a tad bit higher thanks to mega-evolutions - at A/S/B.
If you play with a team of five-six (some variations possible due to the differences in exp gaining speed), then hardly anybody is shutting everything down at all (only, like, Lucario, Honedge and Mega Charizard).
OHKOing without Exp Share and, later on, Lucky Egg is way harder than you make it sound.
If you do somehow have a party OHKOing things left and right (say, if you're only raising two Pokemon at that point), then this just means it's easier to bring up Magikarp into another OHKO machine - it should happen around the time you evolve it.
It's only 5 levels at a relaxed point in the game when you have conquered one gym and are quite far away from the next, so it's not such a big deal.
No EXP is actually shared between the Pokemon switched out and the one switched in, because the game's mechanics have been modified so that all Pokemon that have participated in the battle gain 100% experience that the opponent provides.
I'm sure there can be no higher priority for large sums of exp through switch-ins than to give it to Magikarp if we are raising a Gyarados (which we are if we assume it is tiered).
I don't understand why Magikarp is suddenly a liability for the party when EXP distribution is concerned, yet Furfrou isn't, even though its Headbutts aren't OHKOing anything ever besides absurdly fragile mons like Carvanha (which are extremely rare) and its endgame potential is next to non-existent.
I think you're misapplying 2008 Fire Emblem tiering standards to this thing, but this game doesn't work this way at all (though it'd be probably spot-on if we were soloing or keeping Exp Share turned on, I'll give you that).
Magikarp's team mates don't exactly get to take a whole lot of hits by the time Magikarp hits L20.
I'd argue that Vivillion isn't very efficient post-evolution either, based on experience of using him in a 5-mon team w/o Exp Share/Lucky Egg.
Also, the reason it is compared to Charmander / meleon is also because it has access to those attacks as well (okay not Bite) but has a workable STAB to it as well. Yes Ember is by no means a steroid attack, but it still helps with eliminating Grass-types and co. It isnt necessarily meant as a direct comparison so much as pointing out how much later Gyarados receives a move that can really help it muscle out of situations.
So Charmeleon has a 60 BP Ember off 80 base special attack while Gyarados has a 60 BP Bite off 125 base phys attack, not to mention that Bulldoze, Strength, Rock Smash and Payback all come off that same humongous phys attack stat (especially when it's evolved), I'm gonna let you finish this idea and state which one of the two hits the hardest and relies on Dragon Rage to KO things the most.
How is Gyarados reliant on stat-boosting when it is hitting things with Aqua Tail, Earthquake and Thrash for huge amounts of damage?
I also should think that in any situation where Gyarados isn't OHKOing or going first is a fitting situation to use Dragon Dance and then proceed to both outspeed and OHKO.
I don't know how 'Gyarados is like Vivillion" can even roll off the tongue here when you look at their base stats:
Gyarados 95 / 125 / 79 / 60 / 100 / 81
Vivillion 80 / 52 / 50 / 90 / 50 / 89
Plus Gyarados has only 2 weaknesses compared to Vivillion's 5, and Intimidate to nerf some of them (namely rock-types). Gyarados tanks a lot of things, not in the least thanks to its typing, while Vivillion will get KO'd if something so much as sneezes at it.
There's no comparison here really, and the two should really swap tiers already.
._. ...I guess I was thinking that they both like to use their boosting moves (I DID say 'relatively' reliant... fearing rather accurately that being too insistent about that might bite me in the ass .w.), and can potentially sweep at the E4 with them...
But you do make a convincing point.
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Ok, time to cover my ingame mons!
Joltik - S tier
This thing is a fucking boss
This is also a joke
Charizard X - A tier
I really don't think Charizard X deserves S tier. Honestly, it just doesn't have a good STAB move excluding flare blitz, which is annoying to use with recoil. I personally never got it, because I stay far, far away from recoil moves, and so was using fire fang/flamethrower/fly/dragon claw the entire time. I dunno, it just felt weaker than it should to me? It's pretty strong, it's just not Charizard Y strong.
Noibat/Noivern - B tier
Noibat is shit
Noivern is goddamn amazing, though. I raised this thing from level 20 through trading from my previous playthrough, and wow, is it awful. It was constantly OHKOed by literally any move that touched it, and it couldn't do much back to anything. Once it hit level 48, though? Damn, it went from being the absolute weakest thing in the party to the unquestionable strongest. Dragon Pulse + Boomburst + Air Slash really messes stuff up. You get this thing at a relatively high level in the wild, right? If so, there's no need for this thing to not be high up. It doesn't do well against Wulfric, but it can dominate the final trainers and some of the e4. B for its late availability, imo
Garchomp - A tier
This should be fairly obvious. Catch it FAIRLY early, though middle by ingame time standards. However, it's instantly strong with Dragon Claw and evolves right off the bat. I used the exp share to buff it a few levels against the grass dude, but then it soloed the entire electric gym. It probably could have done that at a lower level without the exp share "grinding" (literally just used it for three levels of boosting), gible is very strong and it's not like the pikachu is gonna do anything to it. It's not that strong against the fairy gym, but again when it evolves it should be at the psychic gym and have crunch alongside dig and Dragon Claw to clean up. This thing makes a phenomenal physical attacker ingame, seriously.
Dragalge - B tier
Raised this thing traded from around level 20, and it did quite nice. Poison is surprisingly good in this game, which let it do nicely against the grass gym and completely soloed the fairy gym aside from mawile, which was handled by garchomp. Skrelp with eviolite is fairly bulky on its own and has some good power behind it with venoshock/surf, and again once you hit level 48 the game completely changes. Dragalge really wasn't ever KOed by anything, it just doesn't die. Its power? Slightly disappointing, but it does have excellent coverage and movepool options. Good from when you catch it normally, nice for taking hits lategame, but there's better options.
My last was lucario, if people were wondering.
Joltik - S tier
This thing is a fucking boss
This is also a joke
Charizard X - A tier
I really don't think Charizard X deserves S tier. Honestly, it just doesn't have a good STAB move excluding flare blitz, which is annoying to use with recoil. I personally never got it, because I stay far, far away from recoil moves, and so was using fire fang/flamethrower/fly/dragon claw the entire time. I dunno, it just felt weaker than it should to me? It's pretty strong, it's just not Charizard Y strong.
Noibat/Noivern - B tier
Noibat is shit
shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit
Garchomp - A tier
This should be fairly obvious. Catch it FAIRLY early, though middle by ingame time standards. However, it's instantly strong with Dragon Claw and evolves right off the bat. I used the exp share to buff it a few levels against the grass dude, but then it soloed the entire electric gym. It probably could have done that at a lower level without the exp share "grinding" (literally just used it for three levels of boosting), gible is very strong and it's not like the pikachu is gonna do anything to it. It's not that strong against the fairy gym, but again when it evolves it should be at the psychic gym and have crunch alongside dig and Dragon Claw to clean up. This thing makes a phenomenal physical attacker ingame, seriously.
Dragalge - B tier
Raised this thing traded from around level 20, and it did quite nice. Poison is surprisingly good in this game, which let it do nicely against the grass gym and completely soloed the fairy gym aside from mawile, which was handled by garchomp. Skrelp with eviolite is fairly bulky on its own and has some good power behind it with venoshock/surf, and again once you hit level 48 the game completely changes. Dragalge really wasn't ever KOed by anything, it just doesn't die. Its power? Slightly disappointing, but it does have excellent coverage and movepool options. Good from when you catch it normally, nice for taking hits lategame, but there's better options.
My last was lucario, if people were wondering.
I just wanted to correct this point. Every Pokémon that participates in battle in XY receives full EXP.
That is correct, I got it in my first playthrough and traded it to my friend. I really wanted to use it as my main guy; of course it isn't included in the tier list.
An oversight for me. Fair enough.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. A single Pokemon cannot shut down every threat, but a team of 4 mons will usually do the job. Hell, considering the opponent having smaller teams and such there is almost no reason to raise more than 4 mons. Also - your starters are not exactly doing that bad in the earlier parts of the game. Fennekin has a gym advantage and Chespin / Froakie do okay in the next one. They may not be obliterating things, but they are your strongest Pokemon at that point up until about the RBY starters - and they still have to catch up to your original starter.
Which raises my next question - why in God's name are you using a team with 5-6 Pokemon? That would actually make Gyarados worse.
Gyarados is not even coming close to being a OHKO machine. Unless you're facing something silly like Pidgeys for days and the like, I guess then maybe?
If you mean around that point of the game it can be done. I've had Pokemon like Roselia OHKO off the bat and of course Dragon Rage can catch some of the lower HP mons earlygame. OHKOing is probably stretching it, but 2HKOing is far from stretching. It should be done by your better Pokemon in the A Tier at this point of the game.
Alright, let's actually review what happened in 2008 Fire Emblem tiering standards.
For starters, most people tiered off of a ranking system - which does in fact impact Marcus slightly. Regardless of that, Marcus obviously contributes to 3/5 ranks (turns, gold, and combat). Survival is likely being factored in, which leaves lolEXP. Considering that Marcus can allow Assassins to shoehorn EXP in 31X, it's not even a problem.
But if we're talking about Marcus being an EXP hog kind of 2008 tier philosophy, Magikarp doesn't even come fucking close to Marcus. FFS, I wouldn't even compare REBECCA to Magikarp. Even Merlinus has more of a purpose than Magikarp does before Magikarp evolves. Magikarps contributions. Are. Zero. They are negative in every aspect because they require:
- taking extra turns / time to raise it off-hand
- possibly creating awkward durability situations (pends on the fiasco of course)
I mean fuck not even Furfrou does that. Furfrou might be ass later on, but at least its contributions when it exists aren't a total negative and, when its contributions become detrimental, it can easily be dropped off. Furfrou has better durability than Honedge and also packs the same base Atk as Honedge. If you capture it with a Luxury Ball you can get a souped up Return early which makes it a little harder to rival. It can Rock Smash as a pseudo-setup. It also has Speed which actually makes its bulk better since it doesn't have to suffer being slower than, say, Honedge.
And you can style it. +points. I kid.
And Furfrou is at C FFS. I would argue it being a high D because it does contribute more power than, say, Zigzagoon with a much lower cost (later jointime, but also less pain / better Atk than even Linoone). To state that I'm using 2008 FE standards on Magikarp is laughable. When they used the arguments against Marcus in 2008, they forgot Marcus OHKOed / ORKOed for the toughest parts of the game - earlygame. Magikarp is not helping until after it evolves.
Now, let's look at the A Tiers and match them up against Gyarados.
Budew / Bulbasaur vs Gyarados
Since both of these Pokemon come around the same time (I would rather Roselia than Budew), we might as well just equal the comparison. Before Gyarados joins Bulbasaur and Budew are on a roll - one is using Mega Drain and Venoshock to shut down opponents while the other is using Razor Leaf and Venoshock. Considering that a lot of the Pokemon Budew and Bulbasaur will be facing before the gym consists of Water- or Rock-types (or before that they usually are Grass-types), they should have no issues plowing through even up to the second gym. When the second gym arrives both kind of struggle against Amauru. Tyrunt is kind of dicey for Ivysaur because it relies on Razor Leaf and Roselia hits Tyrunt on its weaker side. Gyarados here does dicey. It can work against Grant's Amauru or Tyrunt, but certainly not both. For the most part they tie, but the Grass-types do better throughout the entire gym beforehand so Gyarados likely loses.
Korrina is also about even with a slight lean towards Gyarados vs Hawlucha and Roselia / Ivysaur vs Machoke (they say Machoke has Rock Tomb).
Ramos has a slight edge with Gyarados vs Jumpluff, but the other two are likely doing more damage throughout the gym and the leader with STAB Venoshock. I don't see Gyarados pulling an edge over the Grass-type twins. I guess Ice Fang kind of works against Weepinbell better but Weepinbell has horrible SpD (65 HP / 45 SpD).
The Grass-type duo definitely do better than Gyarados in Clemont's gym. Obviously Venusaur is better than Roselia since Bulldoze should make quick work of Helioptile and Magneton (Sturdy sucks but whatever).
Roselia probably has a slight disadvantage in here since it might not be quite bulky enough to take Mr. Mime (though honestly with Eviolite I would think so), but Gyarados isn't doing squat to this gym. Even the Grass-type duo can do more since STAB Venoshock kind of trolls them around.
The only real notable things are Gyarados beating Sigilyph one on one and Roserade / Venusaur beating Slowking one on one (both should have Petal Dance at this point). Draw, maybe slight advantage for Gyarados since it isn't completely trolled by SE Psychic.
Wulfric is shoddy but it definitely lands a bit more in Gyarados's te-
Oh wait. Freeze Dry.
I don't think Abomasnow quite shuts down Gyarados, so you probably could Dragon Dance on it and then sweep through. The Grass-type duo really isn't doing much better. I would lean the advantage to Gyarados overall in this gym.
Against Team Plasma Gyarados does slightly better, but Roserade / Venusaur aren't exactly terrible either. Roserade trades access to Bulldoze for Dazzling Gleam, so at least after the 6th gym Croagunks troll it a lot less. Since a lot of Plasma action happens after Gym 7 it sort of helps it out. Gyarados with Bulldoze / Rock Tomb does a number to most of Team Flare's Pokemon barring the Fighting-types, though it does have to veer away from Electrike / Manectric (so does the Grass-type duo for Houndour / Houndoom). I would say Gyarados has a slight edge in here, but honestly if we consider most of Team Plasma past Gym 7 then they all sort of tie. Gyarados trolls with the Fighting-types a bit with Intimidate and resisting their STAB, but honestly Gyarados isn't doing that much back until it has Aqua Tail and Dragon Dance. Well okay, Croagunk at least is weak to Bulldoze which leaves Scrafty. Whatever.
The Elite 4 is awkward as hell.
Malva is definitely Gyarados > Grass-types.
Seibold leans slightly more to the Grass-types over Gyarados. I'm not 100% sure if Gyarados can set up on Clawitzer (Mega Launcher moves pack quite the punch).
Wulfric is definitely a bit more in Gyarados's favor, though I can't remember if Probopass has access to an Electric-type move. I do know that it has Sturdy which fucks a lot of things up, but Gyarados can set up on Klefki for days. The Grass-type duo only have a slight edge over Probopass anyway.
If Altaria is as trolly as you make her sound, I probably wouldn't trust Gyarados nor the Grass-types in here.
Diantha's Hawlucha has Stone Edge IIRC, so Gyarados has to be very careful setting up here. It can't do it on Aurorus nor Tyrantrum, Gourgeist is kind of dicey (I think it has Will-O-Wisp but I guess its moveset, IIRC, isn't painful). Not sure on Goodra's moveset. If it packs Thunderbolt it's a no-go. The Grass-types have mediocre advantages to few in Diantha's team anyway.
So in overview:
Both Bulbasaur and Budew / Roselia have much better performances in Gyms 2, 4, 6 to an extent, and Seibold.
Gyarados has better performance in 3, Malva, Wulfric, and Flare.
Fennekin
Fennekin already has a huge advantage over Gyarados since it has the upper hand in the first gym alone. The good news for Gyarados is that up to the second gym there is only one-ish route with Grass-types and such. The rest plagued with Rock-, Water-, and Dragon-types. Braxien doesn't get a typing change yet, which is a mixed bag since no STAB on Psybeam. Anyway, Gyarados will definitely win in Gym 2. The problem is Braxien should be doing well in Gym 3, though I am thinking Machoke and Hawlucha can cause minor headaches. The fourth gym and fifth gyms are mostly in Fennekin's favor and should do decently in Gym 6. Gym 7 is awkward but Fennekin can obtain access to Shadow Ball while Gyarados has to deal with Bite. Fennekin also does well against most of the Team Flare Pokemon... though there are some it should avoid. Gym 8 is more in Fennekin's favor once again.
The E4... is where things are more in Gyarados's favor. Malva shouldn't really be tackled by Fennekin since it doesn't have a coverage move to take on the Fire-types, though you might be able to set up on Pyroar. Seibold and Drasna are no gos for Fennekin, but Wikstrom is more in Fennekin's favor than Gyarados's (though Aegislash might be a prick). Fennekin's limited against Diantha like Gyarados is.
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So overall, my point is very simple - I am definitely not saying Gyarados is bad, but in comparison to some of the A Tier Pokemon (we should just completely ignore Scatterbug and maybe Azurill, Gyarados really is shaky to see in A. I realize I might be highlighting Magikarp's rut a bit too much, but it does create an inefficiency that many of these Pokemon in A Tier lack. Their inefficiencies are likely smaller than Gyarados's overall even at their arguable worsts.
To me, B is much more fitting. Gyarados and Tyrunt seem a little more comparable for example. They don't have as many gym perks, but outside of those they do fairly well and can rise to the challenge in some of the gyms. I think if Gyarados had STAB Aqua Tail earlier than Level 35 or access to Waterfall before that I would be a little more forgiving. Forgive me for sounding like a prick about it - it wasn't intentional.
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Um. Let me think about this.
No.
Let me just copy / paste its base stats:
40 HP | 30 Atk | 35 Def | 45 SpA | 40 SpD | 55 Spe
Man I actually regret picking on Magikarp after seeing this proposition. Magikarp has to put up with a rut for 5 levels. This guy? 28. I mean fuck even Sunkern can bypass its horridness with a Sun Stone. This thing is a fucking F. E at worst if we count Noivern does okay in the E4 (catching the one in Victory Road).
Its evolution seems too little too late to me, and while its STABs aren't bad for that time period it is slow and very reliant on Eviolite to keep up. Nevermind its damage output is pretty awful at that point even with STABs probably. C seems more accurate with high D being leaned towards.
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Just passing through and I thought I'd mention that Wikstrom's Probopass does have an Electric-type move to hit Gyarados - Discharge.
Thank you for passing that along.
So yeah, unless Gyarados can miraculously take a Discharge or somehow Mega Evolve...
Colonel M, your comparisons between Gyarados & Roserade/Venusaur/Fennekin read like they actually seem to be somewhat even, if not in Gyarados's favor, though that's not what you say in your analysis. Maybe I'm just overestimating Gyarados; he powered through much of the E4 for me with a DDance set (I used an EV'd Gyarados, though). My opinion is that since Magikarp is so useless for those 5 levels, whatever Gyarados should be ranked, lower it by one.
You can first catch Noibat in Terminus cave in the mid-40s for leveling. Noibat evolves at level 48. There is no "28-level period" where Noibat can't evolve (though those 3+ levels would be excruciating with those terrible stats, it's not as bad as 28 levels). It's helpful to play or at the very least research the pokemon in question before suggesting a ranking.
You can first catch Noibat in Terminus cave in the mid-40s for leveling. Noibat evolves at level 48. There is no "28-level period" where Noibat can't evolve (though those 3+ levels would be excruciating with those terrible stats, it's not as bad as 28 levels). It's helpful to play or at the very least research the pokemon in question before suggesting a ranking.
And how well does Probopass take a Waterfall or Earthquake?
Those five levels as Magikarp are nothing. Remember in the old days, way back when you got it at level 5, or 10? And you had to raise it? And it was still actually quite good? In XY this is even easier since you get full EXP from switch-training. Those 5 levels are pretty quick and filled with only a little bit of content, like Route 9, and Glittering Cave, and by that time you should already be a Gyarados.
Bulldoze lets you steamroll (no pun intended) Grant.
Dragon Rage destroys everything once you get it, and Korrina easily falls to Gyarados.
Ramos can't do much to him and fears Ice Fang.
Ice Fang and Bulldoze actually let Gyarados do something against Clemont (you can survive Emolga and while Magneton has Sturdy it quite often leads with Electric Terrain).
With Aqua Tail, and Rain Dance, Valerie is a giant pushover.
Dragon Dance comes between Valerie and Olympia if you don't use the EXP. share and at that point...
Olympia's Sigilyph is gigantic setup fodder for your Dragon Dances, and you can simply click Dragon Dance a few times, then click Thrash, and sit back and watch.
You get Waterfall before Wulfric, and since Abomasnow is such huge setup fodder, Avalugg isn't even a problem.
After that you get Earthquake and Stone Edge.
Malva gets fucked.
Siebold's Clawitzer can hurt with Dark Pulse but you can still reasonably set up on it. You can even use Stone Edge here just for Gyarados.
Klefki is such easy setup fodder it's unbelievable. The worst it can do to you is Torment so you can't set up more than one DD. Probopass gets fucked, Scizor gets overpowered, Aegislash gets Earthquaked.
I'm pretty sure your Earthquake beats Dragalge before its Thunderbolt hits you, and afterwards there's not much that can do anything to you, especially if you have Stone Edge.
Diantha's Hawlucha doesn't have Stone Edge. It's SD/Flying Press/X-Scissor/Poison Jab. Which means it can't do much of anything to you even if it gets to +3/5 while you Dragon Dance up. After that...she's gone.
Against your rival you can set up as many Dragon Dances as you want on Meowstic once you get it, and before you get it they have Meowstic/Absol/Starter, which is no problem for you. If she doesn't have Jolteon you don't even have to use DD at all.
So...yeah. Stop trying to understate Gyarados in his matchups. If RBY Magikarp was mid-tier (and that was when you had to raise it from lv. 5, no physical Waterfall, only one copy of Earthquake, etc.), then XY Gyarados is at least A.
Huh? I know that I raised this thing from level 20, but iirc you actually catch it at 44 in the wild at terminus cave. I got one from a friend in a previous playthrough and leveled it from 20 during my second run. Trust me, I know how absolutely awful it is. If it were anything more than 4 levels from evolving after you caught it naturally, it would be pure garbage. But it does pack quite a bit of punch as soon as it evolves.
The evolution is fairly late, but it has plenty of tools to carry it until then. It comes at just about the perfect time, as its poison STAB is most used on two of the three gyms immediately following its capture. Surf also lets it walk all over team flare. There are certainly worse things to raise up, and the payoff really is more than you give it credit. Dragalge survived a dragon pulse from Diantha's Goodra two levels above it then proceeded to OHKO with draco meteor.skrelp said:
What else do we have at B? Gardevoir, who is one of the biggest pains to raise? Dragalge takes longer to reach its potential, but it can also hold on its own for much longer. Squirtle, which has to deal with water moves only until the move tutor? Greninja? Noibat has only a few levels of easy EXP share boosting (hell, it could probably jump to noivern if you caught it before the inverse trainer battle) and is ready to smack shit up. Skrelp spends more time in its lower form, but does quite well with the moves it has until it evolves.
By using its magical Sturdy Ability, which means it is guaranteed to take one hit. Unless you have Mould Breaker. Which requires a Gyaradosite. Which you do not have at that point of the game. Which means you cannot really sweep Wilkstrom at all, & if it OHKOes, all that Dragon Dancing just goes down the drain, resulting in lost efficiency.
That said, I might throw Magikarp & Scatterbug into Limbo between A-Tier & B-Tier when I update, which will probably be tomorrow my time at the latest. I am not fully convinced that the two should be in A-Tier & B-Tier just yet.
In other news, looking at the X I just completed, Lapras looks like a C or a D (It seriously cannot OHKO anything, not even Gyarados with Thunderbolt), Golurk is a D (It really sucks), Emolga looks like a D from what I have used of it (Ridiculously frail, but great speed & Acrobatics is an amazing move for it), Hydreigon is probably between D & E (Hydreigon was not really that great in the E4 at all from my experience), & Escavalier is a solid C (Great Gym performance (albeit quite inefficient), okay Team Flare & E4). Murkrow is E-Tier, no debating that.
Also Noibat is never going into F-Tier, do not even suggest that. If something is going into F, then odds are it is absolutely garbage & will never really be of a help at all.
Speaking of F-tier, do you think we should quick-tier Volbeat and Illumise there? Their stats are incredibly underwhelming, and they have a poor level-up movepool along with pretty bad stats (frail and not strong). It really won't be doing much of anything in the game tbh so I think F-tier suits it as they are garbage. The only saving grace is that they actually can do a little bit at the time they are caught, but they fall to the next gym they appear against so it's pretty much in vain.
The new starters aren't doing bad only because you get yours at L5, battle the girl friend with it, and then probably use it to raise whatever else you decide to catch early on (some good choices there). By the time their level advantage comes to an end, they enter their mediocrity stage (all three). The RBY starters are underlevelled at first and do not really impress before they fully evolve and are able to mega-evolve, though Charmeleon with an early Dragon Rage, Swords Dance, a good physical movepool and speed, is the better of the three.
Indeed, you make things harder for yourself the bigger you make your team in number. 2-3 Pokemon is probably most efficient, 1 sometimes possible if it's a really good Pokemon without crippling disadvantages but rare. Asking why one would use more Pokemon is like asking why we would not use Exp Share - we are intentionally handicapping ourselves so that the game is more difficult and the differences between Pokemon are more pronounced. This has been the case in the recentest ingame tier list discussion, such as the big RBY threads. I don't think you were present in those, so I hope this is informative for you - that's how we've been going about those lists.
As stated, team size limits overkill offence and reduces it to tamer proportions (e.g. OHKOing when penetrating a weakness or targeting a really low stat, e.g. a Light Ball Pikachu attacking the slow Solosis with Electro Ball).
Gyarados should be OHKOing plenty with coverage moves (some of which can be powered up with +20% X type items), but the majority of its OHKOs await it when it gets Aqua Tail, Thrash and Earthquake.
No no no, I'm not comparing Marcus to Magikarp. Marcus is probably like Furfrou in this situation - good at the start, slows down later. Magikarp in the FE7 universe would be... Raven or something? If you were to imagine that Raven has the impossible below E rank swords and gains experience by being carried around by a mounted unit. No good equivalent available, really.
The exp mechanics have already been brought up to you, but in FE you actually fight to earn your experience, which brings an early archer with poor base stats down. Magikarp just lets your team do the fighting for it for 5 levels at a relaxed point of the game, and then becomes a serious force to reckon with, one of the best around, maybe the best if we decided to exclude mega-evolutions.
Also, I should think that the FE7 endgame is more difficult with siege tomes, status staves and other complex obstacles, than the simplistic earlygame. Protecting Jaffar is a lot more troublesome than protecting Merlinus for example - no Marcus needed for the latter; just Oswin does the job. But yeah, Marcus functions well for most of the game if consistently in use... whereas Furfrou does not.
Also remember that it hardly matters whether you don't fight at all (Magikarp) or fight poorly - the quickest way to get you to the best shape is by switch-ins. Do this when you know the trainer will be using an evolved Pokemon and you'll barely notice you ever had a Magikarp at all.
I would much rather bring up Magikarp for 5 levels (heck, even Scatterbug for 8) than catch Furfrou to Headbutt mooks for an hour or so just to drop it entirely afterwards. You're the one being terribly anal about sharing the team experience and yet you suggest that this exp needs to be dumped just like that without any longterm benefit. If all Furfrou is used for is to Headbutt things between the 1st and 2nd gyms, then it belongs in D/E limbo because it's then actually worse than the Victory Road Pokemon with their very brief contributions.
Honedge's durability is largely part of its fantastic typing. Also, I suspect you're forgetting how Luxury Balls work - they don't work like GSC Friend Balls at all but are rather like automatic Soothe Bells. By the time your Return is fully powered up, you already begin to feel how low 80 base attack is.
I'll skip commenting on your comparisons because I feel AOPSUser has done a very good job showing how Gyarados performs against the major trainers exactly in practice, though it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if you could do a bit of research instead of theorycrafting with the guesses. Cryogonal doesn't have Freeze Dry, Goodra doesn't have T-bolt, others have been pointed out to you and so on and so forth - all easily checkable information online if your experience excludes this knowledge (kind of a given when you're advocating facerolling the game with a small party tbqh).
Yes, I definitely do feel that you greatly exaggerate said rut. The contest between Gyara and the current A mons misses the simple fact that these A mons burden you with a period of mediocrity where they're barely getting cheap kills that keep them moderately usable. When evolved, there is a great variety of tasks Gyarados performs with its movepool, stats and typing/ability, so it more than compensates for those 5 levels by carrying the team and helping you train your other Pokemon for way more than just 5 levels. Very small investment (an extra hit on a few switch-ins), very huge reward.
You should also really try Azurill out - it's way better than you make it sound. Just pummel that punching bag or else you won't be evolving in a timely manner - if that's done right, there's very little room to misuse this mon (assuming Huge Power of course).
With Probopass's offenses, I don't think Discharge is going to OHKO. Sure it'll hurt but it's nothing a Hyper Potion can't fix later, especially since it hard walls the rest of his team.
Gyarados can survive unSTABed Electric attacks, and even some weaker STAB ones.
Pancham (Pangoro): D - Tier
Availability: Route 5, so pretty early on.
Stats: Great Attack for early in the game with an ok bulk. But, it has a huge Speed issue.
Typing: Once Pancham evolves, it really starts lacking. It has so many common weaknesses and it's "bulk" leaves much to be desired.
Movepool:
Major Battles:
Viola: N/A
Grant: Shines here, being able to solo this gym.
Korrina: Not very good here, Hawlucha owns you and if you've overleveled and evolved you're screwed.
Ramos: Jumpluff kills you with Acrobatics and you can't do much here...
Clemont: Good here, just watch out for Emolga.
Valerie: Don't even try.
Olympia: Good with Crunch, but watch out for Air Slashes from Sigilyph.
Wulfric: Great! But Avalugg doesn't take much.
Malva: Meh, handles Pyroar.
Wikstrom: Time to shine!
Drasna: Pretty meh.
Siebold: Bad here...
Diantha: Completely sucks here.
Additional Comments: It has somewhat useful abilities, but Pancham sucks. It is too slow to pull anything off and is so easily killed.
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