Yeah seriously, I would even venture as far to say that it's the best defog user, due to the versatility and how well it does against much of OU.
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Other 6th Gen Pokemon OU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Blitzenith
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Yeah seriously, I would even venture as far to say that it's the best defog user, due to the versatility and how well it does against much of OU.
Best Defog user Pre-Pokebank, and it still competes with Crobat. It does have many perks though.
Post-Bank we get stuff like Defog Skarmory, Empoleon, Aerodactyl, etc, some of which will probably see much more use than Mandibuzz. Especially Defog Skarmory.
Mandibuzz does well against the current OU metagame, but that's only gonna be here for like three more weeks, so...
But then why would Skarmory run Defog + Hazards? It gets rid of its own hazards, so what's the point?
I only play post-bank OU, so I can assure you I know how it fairs post-bank. I've been using Mandibuzz in it, and that's why I'm making the statement.
Skarmory with Defog doesn't really make much sense.
Empoleon is pretty good, but being weak to Earthquake when Excadrill and Garchomp are so common is painful. The volt switch weakness also sucks.
Aerodactyl isn't good at all.
Crobat is great, but It can't take a hit like Mandibuzz can.
Many people don't run Skarmory with Spikes, and having SR+Defog is awesome.
Skarmory takes hits well and SR+Defog is an awesome combo. Empoleon can also use that combo.
Aerodactyl is meh but it...gets Defog+SR? Still won't be too good.
Crobat, Aerodactyl, etc. play different roles than Mandibuzz. Skarmory is awesome alternative to Mandibuzz and can be used for Spikes as well as Defog.
I have a feeling just because Skarmory will get Defog, it'll be used more as a Defogger than Mandibuzz, even though Mandibuzz is good in OU.
Defog first, hazards later.
Crobat is an amazing Defoger too, As good as Mandibuzz, Crobat has super fast Taunt which Mandibuzz lacks, not to mention Crobat can outspeed the opponent and use the Defog, while Mandibuzz could die and not use Defog. Mandibuzz does get foul play which does a lot without investment, but Crobat has enough space for U-turn to not only hit kinda hard but also switch, U-Turn + Defog + Taunt is amazing, while Mandibuzz has it, I think it has moves that it needs more, like Roost and Foul Play. Every pokemon has it's niche, you can just wallstall with Mandibuzz, but you can also super fast taunt and super fast defog with Crobat, the same reason Crobat is making it to OU.
I second Crobat for OU. It's got what the other defoggers lack: momentum. It's the Starmie of this generation, except it can hit ghosts and has a better support movepool. I don't see it being top 10, but its mere presence means a guaranteed defog at some point. The only problem it has is that it's got some nasty 4MSS going on. It can't really afford to drop U-turn, taunt or defog.
I really don't see Crobat going OU at all. There are plenty of good defoggers, such as Latias, Scizor, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz, just to name a few, that are better at defogging and are overall more useful than Crobat. The extra Speed is nice, but I really don't think that's a sufficient reason for me to want to run it instead of say, Latias, which is only outsped by a few Pokemon that Crobat isn't, has much better bulk, and is much stronger. Crobat really doesn't hit hard enough in OU to be too useful too offensive teams. It is also very contradictory to ever run a defogger on hyper offense because it's a momentum killer and HO teams generally rely on their hazards more than any other team archetype except (arguably) stall. Hyper offensive teams are so much better off using Deo-S or Deo-D Spikes leads (which also happen to have fast taunts) than ever running a defogger.
I also think that Florges will actually end up in RU, simply because there's no reason at all to use it over Sylveon (which I think will be UU), which hits harder, has more or less the same movepool, and almost identical bulk to Florges. I think Sylveon (Along with Jolteon and Vaporeon, for that matter) will fall to UU because it's not all that great in OU, tbh. The fact that it's so ridiculously weak to Scizor really holds it back, along with its poor physical bulk in general. Additionally, it's a bit outclassed as a specially defensive Fairy by Togekiss and Clefable, both of wish can also pass wishes while having excellent abilities that give them both a huge edge over Sylveon. Of course, they will both probably be UU (or OU in Sylveon's case) for at least a little while because they're new Pokemon and therefore will initially get more usage than they deserve.
I also think that Florges will actually end up in RU, simply because there's no reason at all to use it over Sylveon (which I think will be UU), which hits harder, has more or less the same movepool, and almost identical bulk to Florges. I think Sylveon (Along with Jolteon and Vaporeon, for that matter) will fall to UU because it's not all that great in OU, tbh. The fact that it's so ridiculously weak to Scizor really holds it back, along with its poor physical bulk in general. Additionally, it's a bit outclassed as a specially defensive Fairy by Togekiss and Clefable, both of wish can also pass wishes while having excellent abilities that give them both a huge edge over Sylveon. Of course, they will both probably be UU (or OU in Sylveon's case) for at least a little while because they're new Pokemon and therefore will initially get more usage than they deserve.
Yes Deoxy-s Speed has super fast taunt, but it doesn't remove hazards, Taunt + U-turn + Defog is a great strategy IMO especially w/ Infiltrator, which Mandibuzz lacks, as for Latias, yes that pokemon is way better Defoger than Crobat, but does it have enough space to allow that space? IDK, I mean it definitely should drop the whole SubCM strategy because of infiltrators, no coverage, Fairies around, Latias could be better off using an Assault Vest set, or maybe Defog/Roost/Screens, but is still lacks Taunt, and a super fast one, which is Crobat's.
I agree about Florges, it also can't be UU because of Metagross falling there, wouldn't dream to survive, as for Vaporeon falling, yes most likely, because of weather nerf and stuff, Jolteon? Not seeing that, with that speed being more in need, with the ability to carry specs without that many fear, and with powerful Volt Switch + HP Ice, using a little mind game it would wreck not only Dragon/Fly and Dragon/Ground, but also Ground/Flying, Gliscor, Landorus, and Landorus-T, I'm currently using it on my OU team, it is amazing and good U-Turn partner is Talonflam. Sylveon has a fair chance of OU IMO, pokebank, we get Hyper Voice Pixilate which not only passes through sub but it is also x1.5 (STAB) then x1.3 (Pixilate) reaching a power of 175, which STAB Hydro pump doesn't reach and which has better accuracy.
I agree about Florges, it also can't be UU because of Metagross falling there, wouldn't dream to survive, as for Vaporeon falling, yes most likely, because of weather nerf and stuff, Jolteon? Not seeing that, with that speed being more in need, with the ability to carry specs without that many fear, and with powerful Volt Switch + HP Ice, using a little mind game it would wreck not only Dragon/Fly and Dragon/Ground, but also Ground/Flying, Gliscor, Landorus, and Landorus-T, I'm currently using it on my OU team, it is amazing and good U-Turn partner is Talonflam. Sylveon has a fair chance of OU IMO, pokebank, we get Hyper Voice Pixilate which not only passes through sub but it is also x1.5 (STAB) then x1.3 (Pixilate) reaching a power of 175, which STAB Hydro pump doesn't reach and which has better accuracy.
Kang's greater Versatility? No... more like greater utter ridiculousness...
When given a choice between the two (as you are with their items), Megakhan just outright ouclasses lucario. In fact, the biggest reason to run Luke right now is to check Kang. Sure it's ridiculous to see Luke OHKO a Skarmory with CC, but at the same time, ExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch are just no where near as ridiculous as Sucker Punch in this meta-- because of Genesect. Genesect's existence in the metagame as the only really viable Scarf user (not counting Rotom-W, who will likely Trick in the early/mid game anyway) means that Luke (and Scizor) will always be far less problematic as priority users compared to mons using Dark / Ghost / Flying / Fighting / Water priority.
Special + Vacuum Wave is one potential route for Luke to blast Genesect, but considering all the enemies Luke wants to cover in XY, its move pool is drawn even more thin. Devoting both its priority AND its offensive STAB to fighting coverage (using both Aura Sphere and Vacuum Wave) really draws its movepool thin when Flash Cannon, Shadow Ball, and Hidden Power Ice and Nasty Plot are all critical to the moveset.
ie. Luke's really good, but if you compare it to Mega Kan (which you inevitably do in choosing a mega evo for your team), they're similar enough that you'd almost always pick mega kang-- one of these is just a "REALLY good poke," where as the other is "FLAT OUT BROKEN"
Luke is a great option for teams that need another mega kang check, but otherwise...
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I wonder how Rotom-H will fare in this less stealth rocked, talonflame/togekiss/genesect (when bank comes out) heavy metagame. Will its new resistance to fairy, immunity to Paralysis, the loss of perma-rain, and the improved Defog (or a spinning Excadrill if you prefer) help it out enough?
Noivern is beastly. It may not have raw speed and power, but it has all the tools it needs to succeed in various niches. Frisk + U-Turn with 123 Spe lets it function as an excellent scout. It has good, if not great, coverage in energy Ball, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball, Draco Meteor, Hurricane and Boom Burst on 97 special attack which helps it to pick off frailer mons; the fact that it doesn't need to predict scarf or sash helps it in this task. Frisk+ Switcheroo is very useful on a Scarf or Spec set as you're able to see what item Noivern will be receiving. It's definitely one of the better leads this gen.
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Yes, Noivern is a great scout, lead, etc, but each niche it fulfills brings a drawback or two. Its not so bulky and SR weak, so scouting is risky and will not work to many times. Okay, coverage is great, and infiltrator can help it to ignore subs and the like, but that is only workable against frailer mons, as most with a decent enough bulk will take a hit and counter to finish it. Noivern also lacks a reliable way of boosting its Sp.A., weakening its ability to hit. Noivern does have potential as a revenge killer of Drags, a decent Frisk scout, Infiltrator is an amazing ability for its Sp.A, and its a good lead to hit and mess up other leads, but its just not OU material. Not saying Noivern is bad, I actually like him a lot, but not OU material
I agree with you there. Even though he's really cool, he needs Life Orb or Choice Specs to hit hard, and as you mentioned, is SR weak, and has no SpA boosting moves. He's definitely not OU, but UU for sure.
Yeah, I agree with you. Noivern easily has what it takes to be a top UU threat, with even a decent chance of making BL. Sadly, making OU would be as a wild card, or if some amazing set appears out of nowhere.
On XY drags, there are 5: Zygarde, Tyrantrum, Noivern, Dragalgae and Goodra. For OU, Zygarde is an obvious choice: Garchomp but bulkier and carrying DD and Extremespeed. Noivern doesn't have the power to make OU (see earlier posts). Tyrantrum looked interesting as it could STAB Head Smash all day long, but its wrecked by priority and Close Combat. Goodra is a beast for Sp.Def and Sp.Atk, with a great movepool and abilities that would have seen it in Gen 5 OU. Sadly Goodra came with a weather nerf and therefore Hydration stall is no longer as effective, but Goodra still has other toys to play with, so UU at least. Which brings us to the last, my personal fave Dragalgae....
Dragalgae is a boss, literally. He has amazing coverage in Hydro Pump and Thunder (amazingly geared towards rain quick offense), plus Draco Meteor and Sludge Bomb get an adaptibility boost, making him less reliant on Specs or Orb. Sludge Bomb is actually his real niche, as he can send Fairies to their Heaven in a hit or two. I see him as BL at the extreme least. Thoughts?
alexwolf EDIT: Don't double or triple post, just use the Edit button.
On XY drags, there are 5: Zygarde, Tyrantrum, Noivern, Dragalgae and Goodra. For OU, Zygarde is an obvious choice: Garchomp but bulkier and carrying DD and Extremespeed. Noivern doesn't have the power to make OU (see earlier posts). Tyrantrum looked interesting as it could STAB Head Smash all day long, but its wrecked by priority and Close Combat. Goodra is a beast for Sp.Def and Sp.Atk, with a great movepool and abilities that would have seen it in Gen 5 OU. Sadly Goodra came with a weather nerf and therefore Hydration stall is no longer as effective, but Goodra still has other toys to play with, so UU at least. Which brings us to the last, my personal fave Dragalgae....
Dragalgae is a boss, literally. He has amazing coverage in Hydro Pump and Thunder (amazingly geared towards rain quick offense), plus Draco Meteor and Sludge Bomb get an adaptibility boost, making him less reliant on Specs or Orb. Sludge Bomb is actually his real niche, as he can send Fairies to their Heaven in a hit or two. I see him as BL at the extreme least. Thoughts?
alexwolf EDIT: Don't double or triple post, just use the Edit button.
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Boomburst bypasses Substitute, so he doesn't even need infiltrator to bypass Substitute, mainly because Boomburst is more powerful than STAB Dragon Pulse; lol, well anyways, he does get Hurricane and Flamethrower, which are amazing coverage. Not OU though. I like him in UU.
Yeah, Noivern would be top in UU. OU he's viable but kinda out of his depth, so UU it is for him. Lets move on to something else, say Talonflame, Dragalgae etc.
Ah, Dragalge. Such a cool Poke with nice stats. If only its Sp.A was higher so that it could take advantage of its nice movepool. However, with such a cool typing, this thing's a defensive threat. Since it is slow and bulky, it could also run a Specs set.
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Greninja: OU, ability to run both a physical and a special set + STAB on all moves, pretty good speed, workable attacking stats.
Talonflame: OU, ability to run different sets, strongest priority in the game, pretty good speed, workable physical attack stat.
Aegislash: OU, ability to run both a physical and a special set, very nice typing, mind games to be played, incredible atk/def stat (depending on form)
Goodra: OU, ability to run both a physical and a special set, pseudo-legendary, vast movepool, incredible defensive stats and workable attacking stats
Trevenant: BL, high chance to outlive any enemy pokemon, workable movepool, workable defensive stats
Noivern: BL+/OU, ability to use multiple powerful moves, very good speed, workable sp. atk stat, not bulky enough though and only viable set is Choice Specs (1-trick pony)
Zygarde: BL+/OU, high base stat total (in comparison with non-legendaries), terrible typing, average movepool, might see play as a Dragon Dance set
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Azumarill: OU, ability to run different sets, huge power, fairy-typing makes it into a dragon slayer, decent bulk
Togekiss: OU, ability to switch into common threats, paraflinch hax, decent bulk, workable moveset, nice typing
Megas:
M-Venusaur: OU, high base atk and def stats, ability helps cover some typing disadvantages
M-Charizard X: BL+/OU, makes opponent wonder which mega stone you're holding, very decent atk and speed, best used as a Dragon Dance set, still needs to use a turn to mega evolve (= stealth rock damage)
M-Charizard Y: OU, insta-sun, very high sp. atk, very decent speed (high with timid), sadly still takes a lot from Stealth Rock
M-Blastoise: BL+/OU, arguably one of the most powerful rapid spinners, ability does limit it however
M-Alakazam: OU, incredibly fast, extremely high Sp. Atk, above average moveset, normal alakazam's magic guard protects it from Stealth Rocks, extremely fragile/should be used as a glass cannon, Trace is extremely random (can get bizarre abilities or powerful ones like Parental Bond), should be viewed as a Life Orb Alakazam
M-Kanghaskan: OU+/Uber?, best SD in game, workable bulk and speed, ability to run both a physical and a special set, arguable most easily obtainable +2 sucker punches in the game, uber ranking possibility being looked into
M-Pinsir: OU, strongest quick attack in the game?, workable stats, workable movepool, can gain moxie boost before mega evolving, one of the neatest ability in the game
M-Gyarados: OU, should be treated like a different gyarados set, nothing more
M-Aerodactyl: BL+, very nice speed, best used as taunt set, not bulky enough to sweep easily, needs to be looked into further
M-Ampharos: BL, unnessary typing and hair, relatively usely ability, terrible speed, average movepool, high sp.atk
M-Scizor: OU, very nice typing, unnessary mega evolution (choice band scizor is arguably better), can learn defog and grab momentum with u-turn, very nice stats all-over
M-Heracross: OU, skill link rock blast + pin missile + arm thrust, might consider running normal Hera over mega, ugly, very high physical stats, average speed
M-Houndoom: Similar to M-Alakazam (- Magic Guard and Trace), not best ability, can't bring out full potential unless under sun
M-Ttar: OU, very high base stat, ability to run physical, special, support sets, brings in sand through sand stream
M-Gardevoir: OU, typing turns it into a Dragon Slayer, very high special stats, workable speed and movepool
M-Mawile: OU, huge power gives it insanely high attack, very decent defensive stats, workable movepool
M-Aggron: OU, high physical attack stat and defensive stats, workable movepool, ability helps out typing issues, loses the ability to take Twaves
M-Medicham: OU, pure power gives high attack, very decent stats, workable movepool, more or less useful typing
M-Manectric: BL+/OU, linear playstyle, high speed and special attack, workable defensive stats, one-trick pony,
M-Banette: OU, access to one of the most powerful abilities in the game, high physical attack stat, average bulk
M-Absol: BL+/OU, access to Magic Bounce, high physical attack and speed, decent movepool, not to be put into same category as Espeon and Xatu because it needs to use a turn to mega-evolve before being able to bounce stuff
M-Garchomp: OU, bulkier version of regular Garchomp, loses some speed, ability needs sand to bring out full potential
M-Lucario: OU, access to one of the best abilities in the game, retains very nice typing, ability to run both a physical or a special set, very decent speed, might be a waste of a mega though (same situation as Scizor)
M-Abomasnow: OU, bulkier version of regular Abomasnow, slowest among Megas and slow among regular pokemon, very decent attack stats, ability to run both a physical and special set, access to Snow Warning
Talonflame: OU, ability to run different sets, strongest priority in the game, pretty good speed, workable physical attack stat.
Aegislash: OU, ability to run both a physical and a special set, very nice typing, mind games to be played, incredible atk/def stat (depending on form)
Goodra: OU, ability to run both a physical and a special set, pseudo-legendary, vast movepool, incredible defensive stats and workable attacking stats
Trevenant: BL, high chance to outlive any enemy pokemon, workable movepool, workable defensive stats
Noivern: BL+/OU, ability to use multiple powerful moves, very good speed, workable sp. atk stat, not bulky enough though and only viable set is Choice Specs (1-trick pony)
Zygarde: BL+/OU, high base stat total (in comparison with non-legendaries), terrible typing, average movepool, might see play as a Dragon Dance set
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Azumarill: OU, ability to run different sets, huge power, fairy-typing makes it into a dragon slayer, decent bulk
Togekiss: OU, ability to switch into common threats, paraflinch hax, decent bulk, workable moveset, nice typing
Megas:
M-Venusaur: OU, high base atk and def stats, ability helps cover some typing disadvantages
M-Charizard X: BL+/OU, makes opponent wonder which mega stone you're holding, very decent atk and speed, best used as a Dragon Dance set, still needs to use a turn to mega evolve (= stealth rock damage)
M-Charizard Y: OU, insta-sun, very high sp. atk, very decent speed (high with timid), sadly still takes a lot from Stealth Rock
M-Blastoise: BL+/OU, arguably one of the most powerful rapid spinners, ability does limit it however
M-Alakazam: OU, incredibly fast, extremely high Sp. Atk, above average moveset, normal alakazam's magic guard protects it from Stealth Rocks, extremely fragile/should be used as a glass cannon, Trace is extremely random (can get bizarre abilities or powerful ones like Parental Bond), should be viewed as a Life Orb Alakazam
M-Kanghaskan: OU+/Uber?, best SD in game, workable bulk and speed, ability to run both a physical and a special set, arguable most easily obtainable +2 sucker punches in the game, uber ranking possibility being looked into
M-Pinsir: OU, strongest quick attack in the game?, workable stats, workable movepool, can gain moxie boost before mega evolving, one of the neatest ability in the game
M-Gyarados: OU, should be treated like a different gyarados set, nothing more
M-Aerodactyl: BL+, very nice speed, best used as taunt set, not bulky enough to sweep easily, needs to be looked into further
M-Ampharos: BL, unnessary typing and hair, relatively usely ability, terrible speed, average movepool, high sp.atk
M-Scizor: OU, very nice typing, unnessary mega evolution (choice band scizor is arguably better), can learn defog and grab momentum with u-turn, very nice stats all-over
M-Heracross: OU, skill link rock blast + pin missile + arm thrust, might consider running normal Hera over mega, ugly, very high physical stats, average speed
M-Houndoom: Similar to M-Alakazam (- Magic Guard and Trace), not best ability, can't bring out full potential unless under sun
M-Ttar: OU, very high base stat, ability to run physical, special, support sets, brings in sand through sand stream
M-Gardevoir: OU, typing turns it into a Dragon Slayer, very high special stats, workable speed and movepool
M-Mawile: OU, huge power gives it insanely high attack, very decent defensive stats, workable movepool
M-Aggron: OU, high physical attack stat and defensive stats, workable movepool, ability helps out typing issues, loses the ability to take Twaves
M-Medicham: OU, pure power gives high attack, very decent stats, workable movepool, more or less useful typing
M-Manectric: BL+/OU, linear playstyle, high speed and special attack, workable defensive stats, one-trick pony,
M-Banette: OU, access to one of the most powerful abilities in the game, high physical attack stat, average bulk
M-Absol: BL+/OU, access to Magic Bounce, high physical attack and speed, decent movepool, not to be put into same category as Espeon and Xatu because it needs to use a turn to mega-evolve before being able to bounce stuff
M-Garchomp: OU, bulkier version of regular Garchomp, loses some speed, ability needs sand to bring out full potential
M-Lucario: OU, access to one of the best abilities in the game, retains very nice typing, ability to run both a physical or a special set, very decent speed, might be a waste of a mega though (same situation as Scizor)
M-Abomasnow: OU, bulkier version of regular Abomasnow, slowest among Megas and slow among regular pokemon, very decent attack stats, ability to run both a physical and special set, access to Snow Warning
Do tell.
yes all megas will be OU. no there is no Usage cut off and no the megas aren't jostling for one spot. on a team, yes we do tier them separately, from the base pokemon which is why Charizard can be Ou and BL at the same time, yes Noivern will obviously be broken in UU.
If you can't tell i'm being sarcastic.
what?
Lucario and M-Lucario have the same basic 'strategy': it's mega form doesn't bring it something new to play with other than increased stats and ability. Also, it's Mega-form is kinda overshadowed in comparison to the other new shiny mega's.
Scizor is a major utility-master and scout, something that M-Scizor kind of isn't.. Also is overshadowed in comparison to the other mega's.
Yes but those "Increased Stats" are the equivalent of a...i would say Nuke but something else fits that bill, more like a standard Air Strike. if your not dead set on using another Mega, why would you run another Luke set? other han the fact Kang Exists,and if you don't wanna use Kang, Luke is your best option as it can revenge Kang.
MScizor is one of the best Bulky SDers around, far better than its normal form. its not as good a revenge killer though.
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