Also, in addition to some of the other possible team options I posted, I think Flame Body is being undervalued as a way of dealing with it. Switching a Flame Body pokemon in on PuP provides a 50% burn rate which isn't bad at all, and several pokemon with it can still then threaten to do bad things to Kanga unless he Sucker Punches in which case they can switch or status. The burn would nullify PuP's boost and make switching Kanga out a daunting prospect.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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READ THE ANOUNCEMENT YOU $%^&, M-GENGAR WAS BANNED BECAUSE IT COULD FREELY REMOVE COUNTERS TO OTHER SWEEPERS, AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH PEOPLE LIKE YOU PISS ME OFF.
better yet, read my signiture. IT SPELLS IT OUT FOR YOU.
Thats Hilarious, but it still should be banned.
That is a horrible argument. It is wrong in nearly every regard.
Reason 1: Smogon doesn't care about Nintendo's shiny toys, it cares about creating a healthy, competitive metagame.
Reason 2: 90% of the Mega-Forms are nowhere near being banned, so getting rid of the few that are overpowered will not hurt at all.
Reason 3: GameFreak does not focus on the competitive metagame, AT ALL, when it is making new games. Megas will still be cool and still be used by the majority of the game's intended demographic, and will not be threatened by the competitive community.
Reason 4: If GameFreak did make an adjustment as a result of a few (four, maximum) Megas being banned, it would be to change which ones are made, and to not make them so overpowered next time, rather than to get rid of them altogether.
This thing needs to go to ubers. "Pray my opponent is stupid/not running X move" should not be a strategy to beat it. On its own, it does stupid amounts of damage even to things that resist Return but aren't necessarily physical walls (such as max HP Scizor). But I've seen several strategies involving team support with this thing (such as Scoliopede, Ninjask, or Smeargle baton passing to it; Tailwind/Sticky Web support; Wish/Heal bell/Healing Wish support; Trappers such as Wobbuffet or Gothitelle to remove its checks, etc) which turn it far more broken than anything suited for OU using these strategies. Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Crunch, and EQ have been becoming increasingly common on it to remove typical physical walls.
From the other end of the spectrum, I've been seeing a fair amount of otherwise asinine sets on things in hope of beating this thing. For example, physically defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp (why would you run this over Lum Berry/Band/Sash/Scarf/something else and an offensive set, except in hopes of checking Khan?), Will o Wisp on completely random things that happen to get it, Rocky Helmet and/or Counter on random things in general, etc. While these things aren't necessarily useless vs. teams that do not have Mega-Khan, they are usually sub-optimal to the goal of the teams that they are on, and as a result turn into near-dead weight vs. many other teams.
On a side note, Scarf Ditto has been an amusing check to this thing. I've killed off many Khans, using their own boosts against them. It doesn't really suit most teams, and depends on the opponent not being a major idiot (and therefore running a reasonable set) to work in general (whether or not Khan is around).
Tl;dr - Mega-Khan has turned OU into a shit show, ban please.
From the other end of the spectrum, I've been seeing a fair amount of otherwise asinine sets on things in hope of beating this thing. For example, physically defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp (why would you run this over Lum Berry/Band/Sash/Scarf/something else and an offensive set, except in hopes of checking Khan?), Will o Wisp on completely random things that happen to get it, Rocky Helmet and/or Counter on random things in general, etc. While these things aren't necessarily useless vs. teams that do not have Mega-Khan, they are usually sub-optimal to the goal of the teams that they are on, and as a result turn into near-dead weight vs. many other teams.
On a side note, Scarf Ditto has been an amusing check to this thing. I've killed off many Khans, using their own boosts against them. It doesn't really suit most teams, and depends on the opponent not being a major idiot (and therefore running a reasonable set) to work in general (whether or not Khan is around).
Tl;dr - Mega-Khan has turned OU into a shit show, ban please.
On paper, a 650 BST pokemon with a choice band that doesn't restrict moves is pretty bad. A pokemon with all around good stats including a high attack stat and a swords dance that does considerable damage on top of that is pretty bad. Add powerful STAB with good coverage, good priority and all around good coverage, and the ability to break through substitute all the time. Mega Kanga is extremely hard to get around and has no counters - even ghosts with will-o-wisp have to watch out for Scrappy. I can't recall a game with Mega Kanga where I didn't suffer considerably even preparing for it (the very first encounter was my first loss playing XY, with a 6-0 sweep). Anyone with moderate skill can use Kangaskan to great effect easily and it doesn't have any hard counters - it needs to go.
That wasn't what he was arguing, at all. He was saying that neither Mega-Kangaskhan nor Mega-Gengar should be banned. Just because they're Megas. That being a Mega means they should be kept in, or otherwise, GameFreak will stop making Megas in future games/events.
It's still a horrible argument, but it isn't the one you seemed to think it was.
People really need to get out of the mentality that we're banning all the megas and ruining the game because of it. It just happens that some of the megas are far too powerful for the OU metagame and should most likely be banned because of it. If a mega isn't broken, we won't ban it. This isn't some chain effect where one mega being banned just leads to another taking its place. It's just that we're still in a very early stage of the metagame and there's still a lot of cleaning up to do.
He clearly doesn't understand why we keep things like mewtwo out of OU or why we banned M-Gar. He called it legit OU. He is one step away from saying Mewtwo should be unbanned because it was RBY.
This will actually probly be the last Mega we ban, Lucarios to frail and slow (compared to choice scarf revengers) to be banned, but maybe prankster destiny bond on banette may be bannable.
First of all, people have been calling for a suspect test for this thing a month ago. You know, when M-Gengar was terrorising OU. Take a look at the Kangaskhan thread.
Secondly, some megas are just more powerful than others, and a few to the point, that they're broken. No chance that M-Houndoom or M-Manectric are going Uber any time soon. A broken or suspect mega is treated just as any other obvious Uber or suspect would be treated.
Some of you horribly undervalue Fake Out, considering the fact it has higher priority than even Talonflame's Brave Bird AND the opponent cannot attack in that turn. You don't even need to stay in, you can always just come back in and cripple the enemy even more. And don't give me that coverage asininity. How many moves have been posted on this forum?
Well here's how most of my Wi-Fi matches go:
I send out Arcanine, they send out Kangaskhan (yes I use Arcanine wanna fight about it?). They Mega Evolve, fail to kill my Arcanine because of -1 Intimidate and I OHKO with Close Combat. If they have Fake Out (which one did), I'm easily in Earthquake KO range.
Mega Kangaskhan is a sad case of "overdone". It's a shame because most Mega evolutions either enhance Pokemon that had no business being buffed in the first place, or didn't improve them much, if at all. Kangaskhan is one of the few Pokes that actually deserved a Mega Evolution, due to the sheer uselessness of its Normal forme, so it's depressing to see it get the boot. I am not saying that it does not deserve its impending fate, but it makes me wish that Gamefreak had been more thoughtful in supporting this new mechanic that could have done a lot of good for the game. Instead of conceiving of Mega Lucario, Mega Gengar, Mega Mewtwo, and the like, they should have given more similarly forgotten Pokemon like Grumpig, Farfetch'd and Girafarig a chance to shine.
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When you have a bunch of people running retarded as fuck sets on their Pokemon just to counter ONE Pokemon, you know something is wrong. Just because there happens to be that ONE shitty-ass gimmick that deals with Genghis Khan doesn't mean that he isn't automatically not broken.
It leaves you without a response to hard counters such as any relatively bulky ghost.
A bulky attacker that can 6-0 teams that don't have a Sableye or bulky Rocky Helmet user, and can be tacked on with no support to run? goddamn, I can't wait to see what random NU pokemon will become OU next gen. I'm hoping for Butterfree, I've always liked Butterfree.
First of all, there is such a thing as competitive Ubers. Just because Mega Kanga is banned does not mean we'll gorget about her; on the contrary, we'll have her ingrained as a threat permanently in our minds. Second of all, Game Freak, (not Nintendo, they don't "make" Pokemon,) give shit all as to what Smogon has to say, and won't be influenced at all by what bans we make. Thirdly, if you KNOW they're too strong, why wouldn't you advocate for their ban?
Do you really want to rely on luck to beat it?
I still can't fathom why people get so defensive at the suggestion that Mega Evolutions - Pokemon with up to 700BST and often carrying absurdly good abilities - might actually be unhealthy for the metagame. I only read the first few pages but I saw the pro-OU camp calling Kanga's bulk into question; 105/100/100 is frail? Are you kidding me?
Is it banned yet?
It should be.
The ridiculousness that is Mega-Kangaskhan needs to go. It is now Mandatory for me to put Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet or Gengar with Destiny Bond on every single team I create. No thanks.
It should be.
The ridiculousness that is Mega-Kangaskhan needs to go. It is now Mandatory for me to put Ferrothorn with Rocky Helmet or Gengar with Destiny Bond on every single team I create. No thanks.
No. Cofagrigus is the most reliable defensive check to kangaskhan that can get it burned and survive no matter what, even on the switch-in.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 156-186 (48.7 - 58.1%)
From there, no more of the second hit from mega kanga, which greatly weakens it. Not to mention it should be burned after the first turn.
And if you did happen to let it get up a PuP:
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 309-366 (96.5 - 114.3%)
You're sorta fucked :D
But then again, if you're not packing a sableye, you're pretty fucked either way when a mega kanga is at +2.
However, I'm not sure if after the first crunch mummy immediately activates and you get to avoid the second, or if you have to take both and then mummy kicks in.
+2 252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 103-122 (32.1 - 38.1%)
Mega kanga ain't getting past cofagrigus when its burned. Ever.
And cof can take pursuit and stuff quite well, so it won't die too easily.
Also:
252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 22-26 (6.87 - 8.12%) -- 9HKO at best
after which
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 234-276 (73.1 - 86.2%)
Still fails to ko after leftovers. From there you can burn it. You'll die, but mega kanga will have been essentially dealt with.
The only instance where cofagrigus MAY not completely counter is when kang stays scrappy, PuP's to get to +1, then mega evolves and goes for crunch, which btw, cofagrigus still survives and can then burn.
Think of it like this:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 156-186 (48.7 - 58.1%)
Cofagrigus switches in, takes 51% worst case scenario after leftovers.
The next crunch does
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 104-124 (32.5 - 38.7%)
and then it's burned. so after leftovers, MAX ROLL BOTH TIMES, you're still at 17%
The next crunch does
252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 52-62 (16.2 - 19.3%)
From there, if you survive, you can just rest up and the kanga is crippled for the rest of the match.
You have to be INCREDIBLY UNLUCKY to lose to mega kanga, even on the switch in.
Now, let's look at best case scenario
48.7+32.5=81.2
81.2-14(leftovers)=67.2
That means you'll be alive with 32.8% to take the burned crunch.
So after the two crunches, you can be anywhere around 17%-32%, and you have to be above 20% to take the incoming burned crunch and survive to get a rest off.
That's pretty darn good odds if you ask me.
You don't exactly have to stay in either, any decently bulky pokemon like garchomp can come in on a burned crunch and start doing stuff while you can save cofagrigus for death fodder.
And did I mention this is SWITCHING IN?
From there, no more of the second hit from mega kanga, which greatly weakens it. Not to mention it should be burned after the first turn.
And if you did happen to let it get up a PuP:
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 309-366 (96.5 - 114.3%)
You're sorta fucked :D
But then again, if you're not packing a sableye, you're pretty fucked either way when a mega kanga is at +2.
However, I'm not sure if after the first crunch mummy immediately activates and you get to avoid the second, or if you have to take both and then mummy kicks in.
+2 252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 103-122 (32.1 - 38.1%)
Mega kanga ain't getting past cofagrigus when its burned. Ever.
And cof can take pursuit and stuff quite well, so it won't die too easily.
Also:
252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 22-26 (6.87 - 8.12%) -- 9HKO at best
after which
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 234-276 (73.1 - 86.2%)
Still fails to ko after leftovers. From there you can burn it. You'll die, but mega kanga will have been essentially dealt with.
The only instance where cofagrigus MAY not completely counter is when kang stays scrappy, PuP's to get to +1, then mega evolves and goes for crunch, which btw, cofagrigus still survives and can then burn.
Think of it like this:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 156-186 (48.7 - 58.1%)
Cofagrigus switches in, takes 51% worst case scenario after leftovers.
The next crunch does
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 104-124 (32.5 - 38.7%)
and then it's burned. so after leftovers, MAX ROLL BOTH TIMES, you're still at 17%
The next crunch does
252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 52-62 (16.2 - 19.3%)
From there, if you survive, you can just rest up and the kanga is crippled for the rest of the match.
You have to be INCREDIBLY UNLUCKY to lose to mega kanga, even on the switch in.
Now, let's look at best case scenario
48.7+32.5=81.2
81.2-14(leftovers)=67.2
That means you'll be alive with 32.8% to take the burned crunch.
So after the two crunches, you can be anywhere around 17%-32%, and you have to be above 20% to take the incoming burned crunch and survive to get a rest off.
That's pretty darn good odds if you ask me.
You don't exactly have to stay in either, any decently bulky pokemon like garchomp can come in on a burned crunch and start doing stuff while you can save cofagrigus for death fodder.
And did I mention this is SWITCHING IN?
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I run Rocky helmet on Garchomp and Ferrothorn because knocking off 25% of an opponents health while taking damage I would have already taken is fucking AMAZING. I like how you are ignoring the fact that like 90% of OU right now(totally made that up), consists of Physical attackers. I love rocky helmet, and would use it over leftovers any day on Ferrothorn.
Are you forgetting about another huge threat called....Talonflame? Don't have the right check to that pokemon, and bam, your team lost 3-4 pokemon to a CB 252 atk STAB Brave Bird. Throw in a garchomp, and you have a dead bird. It's not SOLELY for Mega Kanga that we use rocky helmet, but we do get the warm fuzzies when one pops up.[/quote]
I love how offensive this post is, just to defend having Mkang. Gyarados always had a 4x weakness, as well as no priority. Now tell me what you are going to do to kill Mkang, especially when it would easily have +2 sucker punch.
I really don't think anyone needs to reply to posts like these seriously- especially since he just joined yesterday, this looks more like one of those kids that get enthusiastic about competitive battling and want to use all the shiny nintendo toys in the game.
It is sad. All that really needed to happen was for both hits to do 50% damage. I.e., Parental Bond doesn't provide a damage boost, but merely splits an attack into two hits. That way you retain the ability to do shit like hit through subs, break sashes and capitilise on PuP/other secondary effects without giving Mega-kang absurd power to go with it.
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