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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Well there is going to be of course two sides to every suspect argument, please don't feel just because you are on the less popular side of the argument that means your post is unwanted/unneeded. As you can see in the Gengarite discussion, the pro-OU side did influence the wording a lot such that the exact reasons for it's ban was highlighted and nothing more.
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Anyway, as much as I love this Kangaroo and it's trusty side kick and use it in my main teams (I really thought I could get away with auditioning to various SPL teams with it, might as well hurry up), I support a quick ban decision on it.
This thing has overall great stats, it's effective attacking power being 574 (I may be off by a few points since I'm recalling this from memory), has a fantastic movepool that let's it cover anything it wants, priority to cover outspeeding threats (and in the process making Adamant a viable choice) and can literally 2HKO all OU physical walls.
And if that wasn't enough, it has great abilities before it Mega evolves such that it can, guranteed, at least pick up a +1 boost (Scrappy) or prevent the opponent from putting it from Sleep (Early Bird), and it really has the bulk to survive a non stab fighting move from things such as Mega Scizor (as much as I was suprised when this happened, I didn't even have HP evs at that time).
But let us talk counters and checks, if any. If we have anyone from the Excadrill era, you remember discussions about bringing up niche counters from lower tiers ONLY to deal with it, as well as influencing team building decisions to at least include one answer to it. That is what we oldies call over centralizing. So when we mention Cofag or Dusclops or Sableeye we are mentioning trainers having their hands twisted to use something they normally wouldn't just for Kanga. Also, as much as Rocky Helmet users (eg. Bulky Chomp, Skarmory, Ferrothorn) scare Kanga from attacking and literally make it shoot it's own foot, none of these pokemon are going to get from the encounter alive or just barely, so it's really a 1 for 1 trade. Return and Fire punch can destroy all of the above. You might reason well they did their job, you got to keep in mind, especially in this offensive meta (I guess I can take blame for that, me and LN invented HO after all) the foe's team will having more than 1 sweeper, Talonflame standing out and he willl love the hole Kanga just created.
Aside from that, there isn't really much of counter/checks.
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Anyway, as much as I love this Kangaroo and it's trusty side kick and use it in my main teams (I really thought I could get away with auditioning to various SPL teams with it, might as well hurry up), I support a quick ban decision on it.
This thing has overall great stats, it's effective attacking power being 574 (I may be off by a few points since I'm recalling this from memory), has a fantastic movepool that let's it cover anything it wants, priority to cover outspeeding threats (and in the process making Adamant a viable choice) and can literally 2HKO all OU physical walls.
And if that wasn't enough, it has great abilities before it Mega evolves such that it can, guranteed, at least pick up a +1 boost (Scrappy) or prevent the opponent from putting it from Sleep (Early Bird), and it really has the bulk to survive a non stab fighting move from things such as Mega Scizor (as much as I was suprised when this happened, I didn't even have HP evs at that time).
But let us talk counters and checks, if any. If we have anyone from the Excadrill era, you remember discussions about bringing up niche counters from lower tiers ONLY to deal with it, as well as influencing team building decisions to at least include one answer to it. That is what we oldies call over centralizing. So when we mention Cofag or Dusclops or Sableeye we are mentioning trainers having their hands twisted to use something they normally wouldn't just for Kanga. Also, as much as Rocky Helmet users (eg. Bulky Chomp, Skarmory, Ferrothorn) scare Kanga from attacking and literally make it shoot it's own foot, none of these pokemon are going to get from the encounter alive or just barely, so it's really a 1 for 1 trade. Return and Fire punch can destroy all of the above. You might reason well they did their job, you got to keep in mind, especially in this offensive meta (I guess I can take blame for that, me and LN invented HO after all) the foe's team will having more than 1 sweeper, Talonflame standing out and he willl love the hole Kanga just created.
Aside from that, there isn't really much of counter/checks.
you leave my mega lucario alone. This is about Kanga, we can discuss how Lucario is just a glass cannon later, Kanga hits harder, like people have been saying, this thing can take down stuff like Lugia/Giratina, so 'walls' are more like 'paper sacks'
Yes, I agree, Mega Khan is devastating. He actually falls into the Latios Mold on the Physical side, more of a hole puncher than a sweeper. Power Up Punch boost is crazy though, and he can run away with that. I mean, he also has the speed to outrun most counters, and he does smash almost every Physical Wall OU can put up against him. Mega Luke and Rocky Helmet are the only things that can stop him and even then you'll lose at least 1 poke. Yeah, I say Mega Khan is broken just enough to go to Uber
This thread is full of posts discussing why Kangaskhan is absurdly broken right now. There is nothing that can reliably, consistently switch in on it. It isn't even particularly easy to revenge, considering its bulk.
You're incorrect about mandibuzz and umbreon. Neither can safely switch in on a PuP because neither can take a +2 return
Although I'm 100% for banning Mega Kanga, he IS easy to revenge with a fast fighting type.
She's not "hole punched" wall breaker or anything. She's a sweeper that happens to take a dump on walls.
Mind to enlighten us on what kind pokemon available after Pokebank that can handle Kangaskhan reliably?
Or maybe the kind of "fast paced pokemon" that can check Kangaskhan reliably?
Even when you consider the kind of Terrakion, Keldeo and Infernape, you take a big risk switching into a Kangaskhan.
If he predicts right, you are screwed, but if he predicts wrong, he can just switch to counter of fighting type, like ghost which is something every team with Mega Kangaskhan should consider due to how well they cover each other. Then he can come in later, while the so called checks is whittled down slowly.
The other choice is to sacrifice a pokemon then switch in those fast fighting type. But that is also not a good solution, because you lose a pokemon and Mega Kangaskhan can still switch out and comes back later.
Mega Kangaskhan as it is, is a pokemon with little risk and huge reward AND takes a lot of effort from the opponent to even check, to the point where they have consider niche options.
and then a Scarfed Chomp or a Multiscale Dnite w/ Dragon Dance and EQ to name two that got me (Mega Lucario was all i had left Vs friends) come in and ruin your sweep but that is the downside to mega Lucario he is frail
Yes, but thats it, he can be Revenged, not countered. You still always lose 1 poke, maybe more. Even then, how many fast fighting types are there in OU that can outrun him: Mega Luke, Infernape (who looks like he'll go UU actually, real shame), Mienshao, any else? He has 100 base def, which means that Breloom and Conk cant OHKO with Mach Punch, so they'll get hammered as well. I still see Mega Khan as Uber, no offense meant to anyone.
this is what about M Kanga that makes him so good, he hits HARDER than M Lucario and is bulkier (with one weakness, to boot)
What about Zoroark? Foul Play OHKO's it and Zoroark can definitely take a Sucker Punch. It can even trick it into staying in to get killed sometimes. Same goes for Sableye, and arguably Spiritomb for similar reasons (Other faster Foul Players with STAB like Liepard aren't anywhere near OU quality, but they do exist). There are other Scarfed Fighters too (Toxicroak maybe?), and Mega Pinsir has the Speed to take it down plus the Defense to take the punch. Gengar can't exactly wall it, but Destiny Bond stops Kangaskhan from surviving and staying in if played correctly and a one-for-one with a non-mega is a net win, especially since Gengar can be on whatever HP it wants provided you bring it in on Return, Sucker Punch, Power-up Punch, or Earthquake.
Finally, I just realized no-one's brought up Scarf Ditto. Since Kangaskhan basically spams attacking moves all day, a +2 Sucker Punch from itself will probably wreck it up something fierce (not to mention Power-Up Punch is available if you think they won't try to Sucker Punch you first)
Mega Lucario may or may not be too much for the meta game to handle. Honestly I have a hard time telling because Megaskhan just completely eclipses him. His damage pretty huge. But he's also much more fragile than Megaskhan (70/88/77 defenses compared to Megaskahns 105/100/100)and a lot easier to revenge kill. He also has key weaknesses to fighting, ground and fire compared to Megaskahn's only weakness to fighting.
Either way, this thread is about Megaskhan. Not about Lucario so lets try to stay on topic.
Foul Play will only OHKO MKanga 100% of the time if there are rocks up and Kanga is +2. Without rocks it's only 50% chance
+2 0 Atk Zoroark Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 303-357 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 0 Atk Zoroark Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 303-357 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sadly, team preview means that Zoroark will be immediatly revealed to Mega Khan, and Power Up Punch to the Face. Fake Out even works cause Zoroark is so frail. Need I say more?
Ditto is extremely Niche, and falls to Power Up Punch on the switch. Gengar...well, Destiny Bond is a sacrificial move, and we know this brings us back to Khan having no counters.
Ditto is extremely Niche, and falls to Power Up Punch on the switch. Gengar...well, Destiny Bond is a sacrificial move, and we know this brings us back to Khan having no counters.
Foul Play on Zoroark is non-standard and not a good move for it. Spiritomb is not viable in OU.
I've seen some calculations in the Kangaskhan OU thread. Not even Scarf Ditto can reliably take down a healthy Megaskhan.
Just a quick answer about Mega Luke, on the turn he sets up, bring in something like Infernape or Breloom, and drop him with a Mach Punch. Conkeldurr works better cause he has bulk though
Exactly its why i wonder what is up with people saying to Ban Mega Lucario as well at least he can be OHKO'ed by OU threats that already exist on teams the same can't be said about Mega Kanga
Whoa geez, that's surprising, I would have expected +2 Sucker Punch to take it out. I guess it comes down to prediction, then...
Why? Zoroark can be built special easily (with a better SpA even) which means Foul Play gives it a good shot against multiple opponents. It also gets Focus Blast which is probably a reasonable alternative anyway. Didn't know about Spiritomb though. Guess Liepard probably falls into the same boat, all things considered.
On an unrelated note, where's this calculator that everyone keeps getting standard format calculations from?
Zoroark can't take a hit period, Crunch absorbs Tomb, any scarfed fighter mentioned lacks either the moves or the power to kill, gengar is 50/50 at bst and Ditto loses thanks to it's hp stat. and they all die on switch in.
The thing that really gets me about M-Kangaskhan is the 200 HP Seismic Toss damage. Guaranteed 2HKOs on such a large part of the metagame is absolutely ridiculous.
I used to think he wasn't that bad and that the idea of banning him was ridiculous, but I dunno after playing more of pre-bank OU he is a super hard to deal with threat and after bank he gets access to Fire Punch and 200 HP SToss. This thing is insane.
I used to think he wasn't that bad and that the idea of banning him was ridiculous, but I dunno after playing more of pre-bank OU he is a super hard to deal with threat and after bank he gets access to Fire Punch and 200 HP SToss. This thing is insane.
So I'll just share my thoughts here:
First, I support a quickban.
Reasons:
1. It has access to a 40 BP (70 after PB) SD. Even without having to waste a turn, it can deal chip damage without having to waste a turn to set-up.
2. MKang has no hard counter. A counter's definition being:
3. As others have mentioned, to kill MKang, you definitely have to have something sacrificed/severely weakened.
4. It's bulk and Speed. 105/100/100 is nothing to scoff at. With some investment, it can take a few hits and hit back. Also, it has only 1 weakness, which isn't very good in the current metagame with the introduction of fairies. Also, 100 Speed brings it to the speed tier of Celebi and other 600 BST legends and outspeeds a load of stuff.
5. It centralizes the metagame. I'm going to use the Pokebank OU stats for November:
Lastly- This thing actually can do things before it Mega Evolves because of Scrappy. Also, the sheer number of sets it can carry- All-out Attacker, Fake Out, SubPunch, Haxxer, and more. You have to watch out for this thing.
These factors all play a part towards it being Ubers.
Also, frail pokemon all are dead once it gets it's Power-up Punch.
First, I support a quickban.
Reasons:
1. It has access to a 40 BP (70 after PB) SD. Even without having to waste a turn, it can deal chip damage without having to waste a turn to set-up.
2. MKang has no hard counter. A counter's definition being:
Some people have listed Sableye or even Ghost-types as a counter. This is incorrect. Trevenant and Aegislash get killed by Fire Punch, with the latter also being OHKO'ed by a +2 Jolly EQ iirc. Sableye doesn't like taking any of MKang's coverage moves, nor does any of the other ghosts, and being immune to Ghost-type attacks is a huge boon, especially since Sableye can only spread burns, Taunt and it's main form of damage in Night Shade is rendered useless.
3. As others have mentioned, to kill MKang, you definitely have to have something sacrificed/severely weakened.
4. It's bulk and Speed. 105/100/100 is nothing to scoff at. With some investment, it can take a few hits and hit back. Also, it has only 1 weakness, which isn't very good in the current metagame with the introduction of fairies. Also, 100 Speed brings it to the speed tier of Celebi and other 600 BST legends and outspeeds a load of stuff.
5. It centralizes the metagame. I'm going to use the Pokebank OU stats for November:
Defensive said:
all in the top 100. and Kangaskhan is sitting pretty at the 6th position.Offensive said:
Lastly- This thing actually can do things before it Mega Evolves because of Scrappy. Also, the sheer number of sets it can carry- All-out Attacker, Fake Out, SubPunch, Haxxer, and more. You have to watch out for this thing.
These factors all play a part towards it being Ubers.
Also, frail pokemon all are dead once it gets it's Power-up Punch.
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