I don't think you get what we're trying to say. You're insisting that MKang isn't broken and we merely refute your argument. Maybe the get out part was a little harsh, but if you wanna play a game the way it is designed then maybe competitive battling might not be for you.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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I don't think you get what we're trying to say. You're insisting that MKang isn't broken and we merely refute your argument. Maybe the get out part was a little harsh, but if you wanna play a game the way it is designed then maybe competitive battling might not be for you.
Unfortunately playing this game competitively the way it was designed is plain impossible.Just imagine what would happen if,for istance, there was no sleep clause.
Don't get upset matey. I would say that you've contributed positively to an open discussion by providing an alternative point of view (thus prompting others to come back with sound counter arguments).
I completely understand the sentiment of 'playing the game the way it is designed', but the point of creating a competitive metagame is balance. Unfortunately the game in it's default form is not balanced.
I wouldn't where to begin to down your argument.
For starters no OU wall outside of sableye, AFTER A BURN,can wall it multiple times. And calling sableye a wall is just lol
I'm not going to weigh in on the ban vs. not-ban debate, but the slippery slope debate is not especially applicable here. Blazikenite was banned only because Blaziken was and is broken enough to warrant it in singles. The only three Megas even close to banworthy are Gengar, Kangaskhan, and one other possibility that I'm not going to broach here to keep things on-topic.
Most of the other Megas have significant drawbacks in exchange for their power. Mega Mawile's power is extreme, but it's not incredibly fast, gets hosed by burn, and has serious weaknesses, including the dreaded EQ weakness. Mega Tyranitar's attacking power is shocking, but it's still outsped and 4X weak to Fighting, which is still a fairly common attacking type. Many of the rest just take mid-tier Pokemon like Absol and Pinsir and give them a shot at the big leagues with better abilities and pseudo-legendary stat distributions.
Mega Garchomp is slower than base Chomp and further gives up the potential speed boost from Scarf, in addition to being both outsped and outdamaged by CB Chomp. Mega Scizor is a terrifying proposition until you take into account that it deals less damage than CB Scizor and is inferior except as an SD sweeper. Mega Alakazam has unreal speed and Special Attack, but it has less physical bulk than freaking Raticate in a metagame filled with heavy-hitting physical priority users.
Whether or not the consensus comes down to banning MegaKhan, I doubt strongly that there's any kind of Mega Stone witch hunt that will occur going forward; it's just that the top two or three are head and shoulders above the rest.
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 333-393 (86.7 - 102.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sableye is very much a wall, albeit an unconventional one. But not everyone should have to run Sableye.
Ok, I have been using Kangashkan and I can say that this thing is damn broken. Kangashkan gets to choose which enemies are going to wall it and which ones not. Right now, the only problems I have found are MegaLucario, Choice Scarf Terrakion and Sableye. A pokemon able to 2HKO most of Overused tier without boosts is something incredibly hard to face, and I have found myself having to sacrifice at least 2 pokemons to get MegaKangashkan to a point where she's killed by a priority move. It can be handled, I know, but those counters/checks are very specific. Power Up Punch and Return are a given. Crunch, Focus Punch, Brick Break, Substitue, Sucker Punch, Fake Out. Kanga has all the tools to handle her possible counters and outside of Scarfed Fighting types checking her/Sableye, nothing is going to stop her. Well, maybe Klefki too, but at the point you bring MegaKanga to the battle, it's most likely Klefki is dead.
In the Arcanine calculation, you have to either take intimidate or burn into account as an opponent switching in Mega Kanga while Arcanine is already out is susceptible to burn while Arcanine switching in automatically causes a one stage drop in attack. The OHKO is only with Stealth Rock which is easier and easier to get off the field with buffs to Defog and strong rapid spin users like Starmie and Excadrill. Also, Arcanine has access to Morning Sun which received an indirect buff this generation with the nerf to weather. Forcing Kangaskhan to use Power-Up Punch to bump it's attack stat back up to an acceptable level allows you too much free time to put damage on him that will stack up quickly with burn or simply stall him out. The classic Parashuffler Dragonite set also handles Mega Kangaskhan really well paralyzing it on the first turn until you get a paralysis proc and can safely use dragon tail to phaze him out. Once Kangaskhan is partially weakened and crippled by paralysis, he isn't nearly as scary as he was before and has to rely on Sucker Punch to be able to move first. I know I'm mentioning a lot of defensive mons, and I'm not suggesting that a team run any specific combination of them. I have found stall and balanced teams to be my favorite, and these are just a number of examples from the various teams I've tried.
MegaKanga is faster than Arcanine anyway, so it still loses, since it's 2HKOed by a unboosted Return, Stealth Rock or not. Having to resort to gimmicky strategies like Parashuffling Dragonite (there are better pokemons that do this, ya know) demonstrates the point that MegaKanga is indeed a threat to a healthy metagame.
Mkhan has earthquake-return-power-up punch-sucker punch and is faster than arcanine and I doubt he'll resist a parental bond earthquake.
i'm just wondering why this is even a discussion anymore. and we thought Gengarite discussion was one sided?
to sum it up
Pro Ban:
Massive Power. this thing puts EKiller Arceus to shame.
Decent Speed tier, which when combined with its phenomenal power, blows over walls, not as a wall breaker but as a sweeper.
Bulky as balls, this thing just doesn't die.
it picks and chooses its counters from an already really small pool. Sableye is your best bet, but if will-o misses you lose.
It WILL kill at least 2 pokemon guaranteed unless your opponent has Sableye or a Revenge Killer from a very small list of scarfed fighters/MLucario (And it can switch)
PuP. the SD that does damage. Good Damage.
Look at all the Rocky Helmets! Dusclops! Sableye! Over Centralization personified. TTar is a LIABILITY with this thing
Even if it fails a sweep it will open a door for another (Talonflame for example)
This thing makes MGengar look Balanced.
This is just the PuP set. the SToss Set is just as bad if not worse (DA BULK!)
Its brain dead as balls to use. Basic prediction, nothing switches in.
Anti Ban
It actually can be revenge killed and it obviously can't switch ever.
It gets burned easy and sucks afterwards, its not like burns are sponged by Fire types including Talonflame Kangaskhans best friend, that never happens.
It can't set up on EVERYTHING. it can't switch in on EVERYTHING. it does have to sorta pick its moment.
It Gets walled By X even though it doesn't. This thing takes a shit on Skarmory! WITH RETURN!
I can beat it with X (Insert Niche set here) which is obviously OU standard and useful outside Kang and a good idea like Scarfed Ditto locked into Sucker Punch! THIS IS GOOD IDEA! (lol seriously?)
Don't ban it, Nintendo didn't intend for Megas to be banned. No Nintendo is obviously balancing our singles meta and leaving their doubles meta out to dry. Stuff thats broken in Singles may not necessarily be broken in doubles.
I think thats it.
to sum it up
Pro Ban:
Massive Power. this thing puts EKiller Arceus to shame.
Decent Speed tier, which when combined with its phenomenal power, blows over walls, not as a wall breaker but as a sweeper.
Bulky as balls, this thing just doesn't die.
it picks and chooses its counters from an already really small pool. Sableye is your best bet, but if will-o misses you lose.
It WILL kill at least 2 pokemon guaranteed unless your opponent has Sableye or a Revenge Killer from a very small list of scarfed fighters/MLucario (And it can switch)
PuP. the SD that does damage. Good Damage.
Look at all the Rocky Helmets! Dusclops! Sableye! Over Centralization personified. TTar is a LIABILITY with this thing
Even if it fails a sweep it will open a door for another (Talonflame for example)
This thing makes MGengar look Balanced.
This is just the PuP set. the SToss Set is just as bad if not worse (DA BULK!)
Its brain dead as balls to use. Basic prediction, nothing switches in.
Anti Ban
It actually can be revenge killed and it obviously can't switch ever.
It gets burned easy and sucks afterwards, its not like burns are sponged by Fire types including Talonflame Kangaskhans best friend, that never happens.
It can't set up on EVERYTHING. it can't switch in on EVERYTHING. it does have to sorta pick its moment.
It Gets walled By X even though it doesn't. This thing takes a shit on Skarmory! WITH RETURN!
I can beat it with X (Insert Niche set here) which is obviously OU standard and useful outside Kang and a good idea like Scarfed Ditto locked into Sucker Punch! THIS IS GOOD IDEA! (lol seriously?)
Don't ban it, Nintendo didn't intend for Megas to be banned. No Nintendo is obviously balancing our singles meta and leaving their doubles meta out to dry. Stuff thats broken in Singles may not necessarily be broken in doubles.
I think thats it.
Look at the calc again. It does take into account intimidate, and assumes Arcanine is switching in on power up punch. If Arcanine does so, the extra damage from PUP will ensure a one hit ko, regardless of rocks or not. Heck, Kanga has a shot at One hit koing without any residual damage (again, look at the calcks again, which you misread). At +1! Arcanine has no buisness staying in or switching on a Kangaskhan with any boosts, and if already weakened, you might as well fodder it to the wrath of Kanga. And what's the point of someone switching in Kanga on Arcanine, I would much rather switch in my Rotom, underspeed with Volt-Switch, then go into Kanga for example.
As for my opinion on mega Kanga, it is simply a combination of too much power and bulk, combined with a neat 100 base speed. If Kanga was slower, I'd assure people it would be so much easier to deal with, we could switch in our Physical walls, that, with minor investment in speed, could cripple with status or weaken Kanga. Usually, powerful, bulky pokes get a bad base speed or a crippling weakness, to compensate for their extreme offenses and bulk, allowing you too check them. If the poke is powerful, but has a lot of speed, they are usually squishy, to make it easier to wear them down. Tyranitar is a perfect example of the former. And Kanga is basically a Tyranitar, with an arguably better typing, that is not starting out on 60 base speed, but 100. This immediately causes problems, because now, no wall can hope too outspeed it, and fast pokes need to have a resistance too Sucker Punch to stand a chance. And when the thing has the ability too choose what walls it can't take on, that makes it practically impossible to be Mega Kangaproof. The only way too check him offensively is faster priority or Sucker Punch resistance, only walls who can take him on are ghosts and Skarm, and all of them can be screwed over by either teammates or Crunch.
Now, does this make him broken? In the current metagame, I think he is, the combination of bulk, power and speed is unrivaled in the OU tier, and it's not very difficult for Kanga too run through the meta. You need dedicated counters to take him on, and even they are shaky. He might stabilize after some time, when Pokebank arrives with stuff like Terrakion, but there is no question that Mega Kanga is the best mega, and there is little reason too not use him. So the most healthy option is probably to ban him.
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If Arcanine Comes in, it eats a Power Up Punch. or a Return. or anything. you have to get Very lucky and come in on SP to have a chance of living. if Kang comes in on something that can Will O, the player is mentally challenged.
OU is the top tier. Ubers is the Ban List. thats that. if stuff its broken it goes to Ubers. if later down the line something is introduced that can balance out an Uber (In Kangs case.....a nerf to Parental bond is the only option.) we test it in OU again. that is the process, More or less.
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Like MohZone said, though, the player has to be retarded or completely unaware if he's thinking of forcing MegaKhan into an obviously unfavorable situation.
Like MohZone said, though, the player has to be retarded or completely unaware if he's thinking of forcing MegaKhan into an obviously unfavorable situation.
Pikadooder -- I want you to really think about your posts going forward. I had to delete some of the earlier ones since it's clear you haven't quite gotten the hang of posting in regards to competitive discussion. In any case, no one has to argue further to make it clear that Arcanine is a very poor check for Kang, as are Skarmory and Mandibuzz quite frankly.
just wait until people start running special moves on this thing, fire blast 2HKOs the most physically oriented skarmory and ferrothorn while ice beam 2HKOs garchomp
no worries about rocky helmet anymore
seriously, ban this thing, it's really stupid even when using gimmicky special sets that can 2HKO the entire metagame as well, he also can do a work-up set that i have found 4 pokemon that are not 2HKO'd by a +1 move it carries....just make it go away
no worries about rocky helmet anymore
seriously, ban this thing, it's really stupid even when using gimmicky special sets that can 2HKO the entire metagame as well, he also can do a work-up set that i have found 4 pokemon that are not 2HKO'd by a +1 move it carries....just make it go away
As is Lugia:+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 319-378 (76.6 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
KOs Lugia if Stealth Rocks are down. Mind you, this is jolly `Khan.
Arcanine itself is not commonly seen though, and the more-common variants are offensive running sets with Flare Blitz and Close Combat completely lacking Will-O-Wisp. Also, last generation's SubDisable set beats literally every variant of MegaKangaskhan being completely immune to Fake Out, Return, Earthquake, and Power-Up Punch. From there, if Kangaskhan chose to run Sucker Punch Gengar gets a free Substitute. If he ran Crunch, Gengar does what Gengar does and uses sub-disable to get rid of Crunch and beats him outright afterwards. Kangaskhans lack of recovery makes him vulnerable to revenge kills after switching in and out just one or two times. Frequently, if you can force him out once, you can revenge kill him easily later with a fast mon such as Greninja. He is vulnerable the turn that he mega evolves if he lacks fake out or protect, yet he has to choose two moves out of Earthquake, Power-Up Punch, Sucker Punch, Crunch. This severely limits his coverage if he chooses power-up punch, and makes him entirely manageable if he forgoes Power-Up Punch. Before you say that forcing you to run a ghost is over-centralizing, ghosts are running rampant in OU right now. Some people have even proclaimed that they're this generation's dragon type. Kangaskhan is good. There are a lot of good mons. My goal is not to persuade people to believe that he isn't good. He is a great mon, and he is pretty strong. Just think about the other side for a while. Instead of insisting that a mon is broken, try editing your team a little bit to cover threats like him. If you didn't have a check to Scizor last gen, you weren't in a good place, but he wasn't banned. Magnezone used to be the answer for any and every steel type. With good prediction you could even beat Pokes like Scizor who carried insanely strong Superpowers. Rapid Spin made ghosts essential, and Stealth Rock dropped all but the strongest Fire/Flying/Bug/Ice Pokémon out of OU. The metagame evolved around these changes, but it embraced them. It didn't just ban everything so that it would be static and extremely similar to past generations.
Crunch hits twice.
-2 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 142-168 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (-2 is to simulate the half-as-powerful hit from Baby Kangaskhan, because I'm bad with Calculators:X)
So congratulations, your Mega Kangaskhan "check" lost half of it's health trying to do it's job. You better pray to God he doesn't ever switch it back in for the rest of the match.
Irrelevant for this point in discussion
Crunch is the first slash on Kangaskan's Analysis for a reason... it's really, really legitimate. And Gengar also takes immense damage from Fire Punch. You do realize that both of these attacks hit through sub right? Even the second Crunch can destroy your gengar.
The rest of your post is so off topic it's not worth responding to. Just reading it tells me what an elementary/cursory understanding you have of previous metagames.
Stopped reading at the switching in just 1-2 times. MKang switches whenever the fuck he feels like and no decent player will let a KANG stay in on something it cannot outspeed or take on.
Another things I forgot to mention is that because Megaskhan can set up so easily with one Power-Up Punch and only one exploitable weakness, it can also retreat and switch out just as painlessly. Most other Pokemon that need to set up, if they encounter a counter, it can completely sink their strategy because its such a hard time finding an opening to set up that they might not get it again.
Through Multiscale?
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 145-171 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
so emmm Lugia can't switch into this thing. ever. as shown above it WILL Kill on the next return (If that wasn't obvious.)
Actually it can switch in on a PuP and Phaze....YaY? one of the best walla in ubers semi deals with this thing.
and i'm not gonna bother with this Arcanine thing.
The 2nd hit of Crunch hits through the substitute. Gengar is sitting at 25% after Sub/Disable, and Khan hasn't taken any damage yet.
Standard `Khan is Crunch + Sucker Punch anyway, so Gengar can't win. Besides: 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 262-310 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Its not like Focus Miss does enough damage to Khan.
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