YOU'RE BEATING A DEAD HORSE AGAIN! This was discussed 4 pages ago, TREVENANT CANNOT SWITCH/CHECK MEGAKANGA. Crunch/Sucker Punch is a must for the best MegaKanga set. And last thing you said is that you need to sacrifice pokemons to get a chance to kill MegaKanga. NO WAY!
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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YOU'RE BEATING A DEAD HORSE AGAIN! This was discussed 4 pages ago, TREVENANT CANNOT SWITCH/CHECK MEGAKANGA. Crunch/Sucker Punch is a must for the best MegaKanga set. And last thing you said is that you need to sacrifice pokemons to get a chance to kill MegaKanga. NO WAY!
Is it me, or does almost every anti-ban post start with:
Not that I want to discriminate against our newer members, but the vast majority of these posts (including the one I quoted) make me want to sigh because of the lack of substance in their argument-- it's clear many don't have a sense of what's good or bad for a metagame yet.
I would urge new members to consider whether their post is likely to add to discussion based on what has already been said-- especially if they have no experience following/shadowing in previous suspect or tiering discussions.
Not that I want to discriminate against our newer members, but the vast majority of these posts (including the one I quoted) make me want to sigh because of the lack of substance in their argument-- it's clear many don't have a sense of what's good or bad for a metagame yet.
I would urge new members to consider whether their post is likely to add to discussion based on what has already been said-- especially if they have no experience following/shadowing in previous suspect or tiering discussions.
My arguments in bold and italics.
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Kanga can run multiple builds, such as Defensive SToss, But the PuP one is just too good.
also the standard set of PuP/Return/Sp/Crunch has no counters if they aren't named Sableye, who is the only pokemon who beats M'Khan 1v1 on its own. Everything else can be considered checks as they die to cripple it or need something to die to kill it and if you read any page in the thread before the last 2 you would see that, with Calcs to back it up.
ITS HAPPENING AGAIN!
Trevenant Can't take a Crunch. we have the calcs for that (Can't do em right now but they are in this thread.)
Gengar loses to Crunch, the main alt on a high level Kang (Which is how you judge how broken it is, optimal sets not common sets, otherwise MGar would be still here)
Absol isn't powerful enough. Talonflame isn't powerful enough. The most powerful Priority possible, Banded Techloom isn't strong enough.
Khan has team mates to sponge status (Again Rotom Heat is a god send for Kang) and can set up later.
all of the above need to sacrifice something to the Kangaroo Goddess of Parenting to get in on Kang. therefore they are checks. Checks that can still lose. most of em do. and when they do their job, your team is left with a gaping hole that can be easily plowed through.
Just read the thread, you will see.
Kang runs Fire Punch. Also, it can switch out.
Given that most of the anti-ban arguments revolve around Ghosts that can burn Kanga, I think I might just rock Kanga + a Flash Fire/Guts user or maybe a cleric. Kanga is a physical attacker and is neutered by burn, we get it. So is Extreme Killer Arceus. But there are ways of handling that, especially when it's so predictable (Hmmm, I wonder what this Sableye/Trevenant/Gourgeist will do...). That's without even going into the easily exploitable problems that arise when a Pokemon's primary counters/checks are weak to Pursuit.
Kanga doesn't require much team support but she has it all the same. Don't disregard it in your arguments.
Kanga doesn't require much team support but she has it all the same. Don't disregard it in your arguments.
You're wrong.
Cofagrigus, from full health and 252/252+ spread, can take a +1 PuP, (mummy will have been negated), take the following crunch, burn, take the next crunch, and then rest.
It can also take a crunch on the switch in, take another crunch, burn, and then have around a 70% chance of taking the 3rd and getting rest off.
That's about as close as a counter gets buddy.
If you think I'm wrong, find some calcs. Only problem is that there are none.
I used to think not many people ran Crunch. For this reason I thought Ghosts with a non attacking moves can wall it to oblivion and I also thought while it was powerful, it wasn't necessarily ban-worthy. After reading arguments from both sides and seeing how Crunch IS more common than I thought. Not to mention the whole Ghost with no attacking move is situational at best. Also, seeing its raw power which I experienced myself while using it. I'm leaning more towards ban-worthy. I'm not the kind of guy who just jumps into conclusions and says hurr durr OP. Seeings calcs, solid arguments and using it myself all lead me to my current stance.
When people go oh Smogon seemingly banning thing like a cakewalk (myself included at some points). I also go for the benefit of the doubt. Above all that seeing how that even some "revenge killers" fail to do so this is even more of a reason why I'm leaning towards the ban.
I've only seen one or so solid arguments on the anti-ban side, but even that fails in comparison to stand good points against the solid ban-siding points. (man all this side talk makes it sound like politics)
tl;dr I was skeptical at first, but now I'm leaning towards ban-worthy.
When people go oh Smogon seemingly banning thing like a cakewalk (myself included at some points). I also go for the benefit of the doubt. Above all that seeing how that even some "revenge killers" fail to do so this is even more of a reason why I'm leaning towards the ban.
I've only seen one or so solid arguments on the anti-ban side, but even that fails in comparison to stand good points against the solid ban-siding points. (man all this side talk makes it sound like politics)
tl;dr I was skeptical at first, but now I'm leaning towards ban-worthy.
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We don't know how Mummy interacts with Parental Bond. But the precedent would suggest it still allows the baby to strike on the initial turn, with Mummy only coming into effect on the next turn. So assuming Normal Kanga uses PuP on the switch, Mummy will negate Scrappy. However, Kanga will still acquire Parental Bond upon Mega-Evolving and deal up to 85% with Crunch.
I love your signiture chou, and while Khan should be banned, a lot of people don't understand why, or at least the wrogn reasons for khan to be banned.
This happened with Gengarite, a lot of people still think he was banned because of his sweeping abilities, that is flat out wrong. Khan is banned because there is no reliable switch in. Sableye take a PUP to the face, Confagrious, even while disabling Parent Bonding session, still dies to the second crunch, with out getting a burn off. Have fun watching absol get returned on the switch in, (thats a 0HKO).
Srn9130
Why would would you retain scrappy against a Confagriou switch in. Crunch that sucker, and get the kill anyway. If you retain scrappy:
Con switches in, Normal Khan uses PUP, mummied.
Khan megas, gains Parental bond, use crunch, KILLING confagrious at +1 with crunch, mummied.
Also:
Con switches in, Khan megas, uses crunch, confagrios down to about 30-40%, mummied
Khan uses Crunch again, hits once, but Con is still KO'd
at what point does khan get burned? The purpose of a counter is to take anything that Khan could POSSIBLY throw at it, and still win, like Goodra can take anything from Gengar (dazzling gleam gets only 30%) and kill it back with ease.
Now Khan can use PUP on the next guy, take the hit, and even with mummy, go around picking things off with +2 returns off 125 base atk, bulk, and 100 speed.
This happened with Gengarite, a lot of people still think he was banned because of his sweeping abilities, that is flat out wrong. Khan is banned because there is no reliable switch in. Sableye take a PUP to the face, Confagrious, even while disabling Parent Bonding session, still dies to the second crunch, with out getting a burn off. Have fun watching absol get returned on the switch in, (thats a 0HKO).
Srn9130
Why would would you retain scrappy against a Confagriou switch in. Crunch that sucker, and get the kill anyway. If you retain scrappy:
Con switches in, Normal Khan uses PUP, mummied.
Khan megas, gains Parental bond, use crunch, KILLING confagrious at +1 with crunch, mummied.
Also:
Con switches in, Khan megas, uses crunch, confagrios down to about 30-40%, mummied
Khan uses Crunch again, hits once, but Con is still KO'd
at what point does khan get burned? The purpose of a counter is to take anything that Khan could POSSIBLY throw at it, and still win, like Goodra can take anything from Gengar (dazzling gleam gets only 30%) and kill it back with ease.
Now Khan can use PUP on the next guy, take the hit, and even with mummy, go around picking things off with +2 returns off 125 base atk, bulk, and 100 speed.
but 252/252+ wasn't even that great in uu last gen, let alone barely being mentioned for gen five ou. everyone used tr/nasty plot offensive, and that's the only set in the ou analysis.
says something when you have to run a set that's pretty much suboptimal even in uu to beat this thing.
not to mention that it still takes a shitload of damage on the switch with crunch. if it's at +2, you have a 25% chance to die assuming jolly nature; it will not survive two, even sans parental bond.
ps: the uu defensive set didn't even have rest, as it was considered a poor choice on that set due to making you a sitting duck.
furthermore, why would you stay in on something that you know you can't kill? it's not as though the wisp is hard to predict, just save your khan for later
edit: crunch on the switch, crunch before the will-o and a third crunch before the rest leaves cofag at ~5%; assuming each hit does minimum damage.
Ludicolo, from full health and 252/252+ spread, can take a Choice Specs Water-boosted Water Spout or Thunder, outspeed Kyogre with Swift Swim, Giga-Drain life back, and outdamage and outlive the Kyogre. Shedinja similarly walls and beats Kyogre on the switchin and 1v1, so long as Kyogre isn't running Toxic. Nevertheless, we all know that Kyogre is just too powerful for OU.
We've already established the (very very) few counters to M-Kanga in this game. Guess what? Having one or two counters does NOT stop a pokemon from being Uber. In fact, you start having to look for EXTREMELY niche pokemon (ie: Ludicolo and Shedinja vs Kyogre, or Sableye, Cofagrigus or Dusclops vs Mega-Khan) just to beat the thing.
Guess what. Khan is Uber. Yes, it has counters, but so does Kyogre. Both are clearly unhealthy for this metagame... it is blatantly obvious as soon as people started running Sableye in OU that Khan has already begun overcentralizing the metagame.
We've already established the (very very) few counters to M-Kanga in this game. Guess what? Having one or two counters does NOT stop a pokemon from being Uber. In fact, you start having to look for EXTREMELY niche pokemon (ie: Ludicolo and Shedinja vs Kyogre, or Sableye, Cofagrigus or Dusclops vs Mega-Khan) just to beat the thing.
Guess what. Khan is Uber. Yes, it has counters, but so does Kyogre. Both are clearly unhealthy for this metagame... it is blatantly obvious as soon as people started running Sableye in OU that Khan has already begun overcentralizing the metagame.
Cofag is not very viable outside countering Mega Kang, it'll be a deadweight most of the time. The fact that Cofag is even considered shows how overcentralizing Kanga is, forcing people to use situational pokes like Spiritomb and Cofag.
Utterly, and completely correct.
I run full defense Cofragrigus for a lot of megas, if only to threaten them with a burn after they lose huge power/parental bond/technician/adaptability/aerialite and then pain split whatever they send in to 'sponge the status'. It works pretty well honestly, especially when you run haze in the third slot. In general, I find status ghosts are enough to keep kanga in the meta, as if they ARE running crunch, then you know you can use speed and priority to your advantage afterwards. I was running mismagius with substitute at one point and it also did its job well enough of scouting out a kanga moveset provided you like, predict correctly. Its not a new concept that you have to get a feel for what your opponent is going to do at any juncture in the battle. I see the adverseness against kanga as a general trend of battlers to not want to adapt or run unkosher strategies or niche mons that are pretty useful when you stop to think about it.
The only reason you'd run cofagrigus in pokebank OU is to completely counter mega khan anyway, so it's in your best interest to max out defense.
And please, if you think cofagrigus can't take "X move" from mega kang, feel free to show me some calcs. I had some earlier in this thread, but I'm not gonna bother looking through for it.
Kangaskhanite should be banned from OU. Ghosts are the closest thing to walling Mega Kangaskhan, but they can get crunched. The best way to kill mega kangaskhan is by revenge killing it. I find terrakion being a perfect revenge killer for it as it gets justified boosts if kangaskhan decides to sucker punch, and if it doesn't it's a guaranteed OHKO with close combat.
That doesn't matter when the only reason you're running Cofragigus with a less than optimal spread is to defeat MegaKanga. Guess what? I can use a counter to Sableye/Dusclops/Cofragigus. Now the game becomes a MegaKanga/Kanga counterx2/Kanga counterx3 fight... and that's one of the reasons pokemons should be banned, to prevent overcentralization.
I'll agree that cofag isn't that great in OU besides countering mega kang, but it does have cool niches, and is NOT completely dead weight.
First off, think of a physical attacker
Does it use contact moves? Most do
Does it have an ability to help it? Most do, like technician for scizor or gale wings for talonflame. They'd be pretty bad without it.
Now this pokemon makes contact with cofag and is crippled because it just lost its precious ability.
Not to mention an outstanding 145 base defense lets you take a LOT of physical hits.
Mega pinsir is crippled, mega mawile is crippled, mega medicham is crippled, and they all become much easier to deal with.
But I'm gonna stop about cofagrigus since this is the mega-kanga ban thread after all.
Just want to point out that cofagrigus isn't as useless as you all think it is.
I actually run dusclops on my teams last gen too, its always ben there for me, BUT to kill khan i literally always have to sacrifice clops to burn him so i can revenge kill him later, and If khan crunches clops on the switch in, I have to let clops die to guarentee a switch in for my priority user to hit him, die, then my other priority/faster mon to kill him. I have to sacrifice always 1 of my team members to kill it, and then I'm left without my wall, and say terrakion, can now sweep my team...
you just kicked your own ass, mate.
Kanga runs both Crunch and Sukcer punch most of the time, your mismagius is not beating Kanga anytime soon. I just checked the calcs too, Cofag is two hit koed by two crunches with adamant, guaranteed with SR, so it's not a full on counter as people claim.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus: 171-204 (53.4 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus: 114-136 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus: 330-388 (103.1 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can't take hits from Pinsir ether, it's one hit koed by +2 return XD.
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cofagrigus: 252-298 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It can also be one hit koed by Mega Lucario.
Cofag sucks balls, it does not counter any of these threats.
I don't think you realize how versatile Mega-Khan is.
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 153-183 (47.8 - 57.1%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO
Deal with it. The set is:
252 Sp.A / 252 Speed Timid
Seismic Toss (lol 2HKO almost all non-ghosts)
Shadow Ball (Nice Ghost)
Ice Beam
Fire Blast
For people that are still confused about Parental Bond vs Mummy mechanics, this was deliberately tested by PO staff ingame and Mummy does block Parental Bond at the end of the turn. Crunch will do exactly the same amount of damage against Cofagrigus as in any other scenario without Mummy. It is after the turn that it hit Cofagrigus that Parental Bond no longer takes effect, so you only hit once from then on.
Source: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?23239-Parental-Bond-vs-Mummy-bug
Source: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?23239-Parental-Bond-vs-Mummy-bug
Dusclops is dumb and doesn't have the necessary thing it takes to neuter Mkanga and other megas, MUMMY. They both threaten with burn, but in general I find mkanga trying to do a wimpy earthquake on my expected cofragrigus switchin, and then you pain split. He eats it up I swear.
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