please
don't do this shit here
heed my suffering heart and repent
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
- Status
please
don't do this shit here
heed my suffering heart and repent
Yeah, you can try tricking a Megastone if you want. I'll be just fine, thanks. (You can't)
You can also try Whirlwinding a kang that PuP'd on the switch. I'll be just fine. (You die, or almost die in exchange for... either nothing, or delaying the sweep by a couple of turns)
EDIT: Can we lock this thread? Everything that needs to be said has already been said and I'm looking forward to the ban.
Hey people, I know you're kinda frustrated with the thread but, if you have literally nothing to contribute (as in, there's nothing new to post), then don't. You don't need to get mad on the internet about Pokémon, the thread will be here (?) when you return.
And don't answer people that clearly haven't read the thread before it went to utter shit (first ten pages or so?) with one-liners or Caps Lock replies. You only contribute to the problem.
And don't answer people that clearly haven't read the thread before it went to utter shit (first ten pages or so?) with one-liners or Caps Lock replies. You only contribute to the problem.
For anti-ban people:
Please, please, please! Read the whole thread before posting! Or at least skim through it. Lots of legit arguments and calcs have been made already, most of which will refute most of what you're gonna try to say. It has been established(more or less) that MegaKhan has little to no counters and only a few(unreliable) checks exist atm. If you want, you can start by quoting some arguments on as to why MegaKhan has no counters and refute their points. Just coming in here and posting stuff like "but MegaKhan has counters" doesn't help, the pro-ban people already made arguments on as to why the counters/checks that were brought up are not reliable. Now its your job to prove them wrong.
And if you're coming in to say "but I've never had any problem against him", well, I'll put this as gently as I can, if you don't have any achievement under your belt(tourney winner, top 5 ladder, etc.) then your experiences dont mean crap. Deal with it.
Now for pro-ban people:
I get it, I get it, we're going around in circles, nobody from the anti-ban side has posted any real argument. But can we please stop saying "we won" or whatever unneeded replies, this is a discussion thread, not ps!chatbox.
And please stop replying to stupid posts, I'm pretty sure you guys can identify an intelligent post, thats why you guys are on this side of the argument, right? With the thread being cluttered by unneeded posts, this makes it harder for people to read the whole thread, therefore making them post stuff that has already been discussed.
Lastly, remember the Gengarite thread? It was full of posts from moderators/mentors right? Posts that contained substance. Notice that in this discussion only a few of em has said anything. Wait for them, they will most likely make good arguments whether it is pro or anti ban.
Until then, I implore both sides to be very civil(though I'm not one to talk, but this really needs to be said) and let this be a proper discussion thread, alright? Cheers!
Please, please, please! Read the whole thread before posting! Or at least skim through it. Lots of legit arguments and calcs have been made already, most of which will refute most of what you're gonna try to say. It has been established(more or less) that MegaKhan has little to no counters and only a few(unreliable) checks exist atm. If you want, you can start by quoting some arguments on as to why MegaKhan has no counters and refute their points. Just coming in here and posting stuff like "but MegaKhan has counters" doesn't help, the pro-ban people already made arguments on as to why the counters/checks that were brought up are not reliable. Now its your job to prove them wrong.
And if you're coming in to say "but I've never had any problem against him", well, I'll put this as gently as I can, if you don't have any achievement under your belt(tourney winner, top 5 ladder, etc.) then your experiences dont mean crap. Deal with it.
Now for pro-ban people:
I get it, I get it, we're going around in circles, nobody from the anti-ban side has posted any real argument. But can we please stop saying "we won" or whatever unneeded replies, this is a discussion thread, not ps!chatbox.
And please stop replying to stupid posts, I'm pretty sure you guys can identify an intelligent post, thats why you guys are on this side of the argument, right? With the thread being cluttered by unneeded posts, this makes it harder for people to read the whole thread, therefore making them post stuff that has already been discussed.
Lastly, remember the Gengarite thread? It was full of posts from moderators/mentors right? Posts that contained substance. Notice that in this discussion only a few of em has said anything. Wait for them, they will most likely make good arguments whether it is pro or anti ban.
Until then, I implore both sides to be very civil(though I'm not one to talk, but this really needs to be said) and let this be a proper discussion thread, alright? Cheers!
Lmao bw1 terrakion had multiple things that could shut It down even after boost! Same with DDP gyarados. DDP gyarados wasn't even a super huge issue. DDP was all about chomp, mence, and stall (skarm blissey) if you couldn't check gyarados your team wasn't comprised properly.
Also anytime you are guaranteed to have to sack something you know that you have an issue in your hands man.
Another issue with parental bond I completely forgot to mention in my earlier post is that not only does it render max health abilities and subs useless it also behaves as serene grace like ability. Every time a pokemon is hit with with a move that uses effects it also doubles the chances of those effects happening. Which is absolutely ludicrous in addition to the amount of power it has.
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Better lol
Can we purge this thread of the bullshit? At the very least follow the lead of the original concept and erase all the posts without arguments?
I mean we should actually just lock it because the arguments are abundantly clear at this point, but if that's not an option then teaching these people not to post so vapidly would be nice.
Or you just sacrificed FERROTHORN of all pokemon for one of your opponents pokemon... Again, Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn has been brought up at least 70,000 times. It still is not reliable enough, and Rockey Helmet is too gimmicky and not optimal on Ferrothorn in general. So. Yeah.
Unfortunately, I have no power here, so we'll have to wait for the Competitive mods to cleanse this cesspool. Until then, we're best trying to keep the discussion level as high as we can.
Then why are you participating on a thread about a metagame you clearly know nothing about?
This is what I don't want to see here, it's not that we could not kill it, We are suspecting this because 1) it takes too much sacrifices to kill or 2) is causing a lot of trouble for people who are new to competitive battling and 3) it is centralizing the meta game, we want this fair, nice and fun, but Mega Kangakshan is nothing like that.
Please don't post un-intelligent posts like this.
EDIT: And then he says he didn't get X or Y yet *Facepalm*
I want to go beyond liking this and actually reply in the positive: Everyone who wants to post here should read this. I am not replying with anything to do with my experiences because I know they're not up to snuff, so I'm sticking with theorymon, logical argument, and personal opinions. Even just through this I've been able to unearth some options for combatting Mega Kanga that weren't brought up by anyone else, but I've since been convinced they aren't sufficient to prevent a quickban. I encourage all anti-ban posters to do the same: Look over every available option, look over the stuff I and others have posted about methods of dealing with Mega Kanga, then post your findings up for argument and see what happens, then form an opinion from the result. I do not suggest anyone simply go pro-ban because "everyone is doing it", I recommend you try and discover the truth for yourself. It's the only way to really be sure, and pro-ban rhetoric like "OMG 105/100/100 DEFENSES OKHO'S WHATEVER IS BASICALLY EXTREME KILLER ARCEUS BAN NAO" should not be sufficient to convince anyone.
In summary, while I think Mega Kanga should receive a quickban until it can be suspect tested in a more stable metagame due to the fact that it's preventing said stable metagame from forming at all, I implore everyone, for and against, to read over the arguments in this thread carefully, examine possible checks and counters, and ascertain for themselves whether there are enough to allow healthy metagame development without a quickban (do remember that the threshold for a quickban IS higher than the threshold for a regular suspected ban, and that the purpose of a quickban is to remove elements that prevent the metagame from developing in the early stages)
I would also like to issue an apology if any of my posting of calcs, possible checks, or opinions caused any problems. I don't think I personally made too many posts without substance, but I could definitely see the things I posted egging on other posters who were (though naturally I still stand by my personal post content!). Hopefully a few people read this stuff and understand that simply posting "IT'S FINE" or "IT'S FINE" with an already addressed argument is not going to do anything productive.
Btw, for people who are bringing up that Rocky Helmet mons can counter MegaKhan, there's this nifty little move called Knock Off that MegaKhan's teammates can use, most of them being unexpected.
So if your "counter" to MegaKhan is Rocky Helmet ferro, chomp, or skarm (and Eviolite Dusclops lol) then you'll have to play around Knock Off too or else MegaKhan is gonna have a field day with your leftover-less Ferrothorn.
So if your "counter" to MegaKhan is Rocky Helmet ferro, chomp, or skarm (and Eviolite Dusclops lol) then you'll have to play around Knock Off too or else MegaKhan is gonna have a field day with your leftover-less Ferrothorn.
Let's just say that by chance one of the random proposed "counters" to Megaskhan actually worked. It was the magic bullet. It could both in theory and in practice come in on Megaskhan 100% of the time and OHKO it guaranteed.
Just for example.
Blaziken got a hard counter this gen in Talonflame. It resists both of Blaziken's stabs. Blaziken's Speed Boost means nothing to Talonflame's priority Brave Birds. Talonflame is also very dominant in OU, it was #1 in November usuage statistics. It's perfectly viable in its own right.
It still wouldn't be enough to justify keeping Megaskhan in OU, just like it wasn't for Blaziken. Because one magic bullet doesn't make a Pokemon not broken.
This thread is 48 pages long. The OU Kangaskhan thread is 37 pages long. Not one person has been able to come up with a reliable strategy to deal with this thing. The Kangaskhan thread isn't filled with haters, either. It's filled with people who like the Pokemon and want to use it well. And everyone has been left scratching their heads at how they're supposed to deal with this thing. Chances are, someone has thought of your proposed counters. And someone has shown they aren't reliable at best and don't even check it at worst. And even if they did, it wouldn't make a difference. It just points to how centralizing and overpowered it is.
Off topic, but that Ferrothorn gif is nice.
Just for example.
Blaziken got a hard counter this gen in Talonflame. It resists both of Blaziken's stabs. Blaziken's Speed Boost means nothing to Talonflame's priority Brave Birds. Talonflame is also very dominant in OU, it was #1 in November usuage statistics. It's perfectly viable in its own right.
It still wouldn't be enough to justify keeping Megaskhan in OU, just like it wasn't for Blaziken. Because one magic bullet doesn't make a Pokemon not broken.
This thread is 48 pages long. The OU Kangaskhan thread is 37 pages long. Not one person has been able to come up with a reliable strategy to deal with this thing. The Kangaskhan thread isn't filled with haters, either. It's filled with people who like the Pokemon and want to use it well. And everyone has been left scratching their heads at how they're supposed to deal with this thing. Chances are, someone has thought of your proposed counters. And someone has shown they aren't reliable at best and don't even check it at worst. And even if they did, it wouldn't make a difference. It just points to how centralizing and overpowered it is.
Off topic, but that Ferrothorn gif is nice.
If you just failed at a basic part like that, I can't imagine which kind of "arguments" you can bring up that aren't based on supositions like the first one. So, in behalf of your own dignity, first get your facts right, make some research, play on the Pokemon Showdown ladder and later come here to talk about the metagames developed around X/Y.
Well, in your case you aren't making suppositions or posting nonsense like some other cases, so I can't see anything wrong with that. You have knowledge and you accept your mistakes not like other people.
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I'll be as polite as possible. What we're trying to say is that unless you have a good, thorough understanding of the metagame through experience and a good grounding of at least the basic mechanics of the new generation, you should not be posting on a competitive forum in a discussion thread about decisions that will have large impacts on the state of the metagame. Posting false information through ignorance helps no one, impedes discussion and clutters the thread unnecessarily. It's fine if you want to contribute, but at the very LEAST, you should fact check before you throw out outrageous statements.
Beating a dead horse yes, but...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69377618
I totally agree with you that it's fine and fair for 1 Poke to be way better than the other 5 since both teams get a mega evo. In that case, I'll just go ahead and make 2-5 of my other 5 Healing Dance / Lunar Dancers so I can use the one over and over.
Clearly, no problem with 1 being better than the rest.
After you've sac'd your Ghost to Will-o-Wisp and all your checks to weaken Kang, i'll just go ahead and throw away one of my "weaker 5 pokes" Lunar Dance on it and beat your ass again. no problems at all. The point: If one Poke is way better than others, there's always ways to use the others to make that one even more broke.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69377618
I totally agree with you that it's fine and fair for 1 Poke to be way better than the other 5 since both teams get a mega evo. In that case, I'll just go ahead and make 2-5 of my other 5 Healing Dance / Lunar Dancers so I can use the one over and over.
Clearly, no problem with 1 being better than the rest.
After you've sac'd your Ghost to Will-o-Wisp and all your checks to weaken Kang, i'll just go ahead and throw away one of my "weaker 5 pokes" Lunar Dance on it and beat your ass again. no problems at all. The point: If one Poke is way better than others, there's always ways to use the others to make that one even more broke.
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I watched a little bit of the discussion in Chat where I mentioned having sticky web set up before Mega Kanga can activate? I mean...I suppose there's still a problem of killing the actual bastard but you mentioned that the issue is that it 2hko's everything. So long as the check outspeeds mega k can't you kill it before it can sweep you? Especially since the potential outspeeding pokemon might end up resisting the priority sucker punch?
since I play wi-fi the banning of mega k is legit of no concern to me, but I was curious on your thoughts. Would there be such a way to make that counter work?
I don't want to immediatley list pokemon as I'm still searching through to find a pokemon with a viable movestrat and resistance to suckerpunch...but again, I'd like to see some thoughts on this before the thread is locked.
since I play wi-fi the banning of mega k is legit of no concern to me, but I was curious on your thoughts. Would there be such a way to make that counter work?
I don't want to immediatley list pokemon as I'm still searching through to find a pokemon with a viable movestrat and resistance to suckerpunch...but again, I'd like to see some thoughts on this before the thread is locked.
Alakazam skill swap, Alakazam will get Parental Bond and Kangaskhan will get Magic Guard (or Synchronize/Inner Focus). After that you can revenge kill it. Most people would use sucker punch, but it would fail because Skill swap is not an attacking move. Somebody could go for crunch, but Alakazam would live because of focus sash. If they have crunch they most likely don't have sucker punch. Meaning that the next turn Alakazam will go first because he is faster and will OHKO because Alakazam would have Parental bond due to skill swap. Then again Focus Blast could miss, but psychic MIGHT OHKO, I'm not sure on that.
Funny thing is... People have been running fire blast here and there to beat steels. So this strat is borderline worthless because mega kanga can one shot ferro if it really wants to.lol
The problem with using sticky web as an argument is that Sticky Web can be used by both the Kang user and the non-Kang user, and in fact, having sticky web up benefits Kang more than probably any other pokemon in the game since it removes over half of its checks.
The problem will be keeping the Sticky Webber alive long enough for the enemy Rapid Spinner or Defogger to die. Since the only two usable Stickey Web pokemon are Smeargle and Galvantula (who is lunch to a Talonflame)... good luck with that? That is also not assuming that the opponent has their own Sticky Web up.... or a priority Tailwind from Talonflame... <.<
Check, not counter. And you're basically forced to run a very gimmicky set in order to do something against Kanga. What stops your opponent from bringin up his/her Huge Power Azumarill on the switch? You get a bad ability and it's the end for your "countering", because you've just put everything as before, or worse, because you're risking your Alakazam to die on the switch.
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