Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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superstar said:
Stop replying to stupid posts please, they kill the discussion. My big problem with these threads is that there are always a lot of terrible users that post terrible antiban arguments that are easily torn down and we get no real discussion.

I do think people are slightly overestimating the ease with which Kanga can sweep. You do have more options to deal with it than hurr durr Sabelye. Its not as good as Blaziken is at sweeping, for instance. Not even close. The set that seems to be deemed the most banworthy is PUP, Crunch, Sucker Punch, and Return. I suppose Fire Punch is okay over Crunch as well, or maybe EQ. It cant run all of these moves on one set, however.

Now, what are some good checks for this set. Gourgeist Super is a great check, able to tank pretty much everything, block PUP, and threaten a burn. Unfortunately, it doesnt get reliable recovery though. Sabelye and Skarm and Gliscor and Ferrothorn and Gyro Ball Forretress and Superpower Lando T and PhysDef SD Scizor and Heatran (kinda, watch out for terrible EQ sets) are also ways I have found to deal with it. You can nitpick that list a bit, but its not like Kanga can just waltz in and 6-0 you. It also doesnt have any resists other than Ghost, so it is somewhat difficult for it to find a way to enter the battle without losing a lot of health against offensive teams. You pretty much have to come in after a kill.

As far as the revenge goes, well, there are a ton of things that can revenge it, and people really need to stop pretending there arent. Slower scarfers like Superpower TTar or Hydregion can do a good job, as can things like CB Talonflame or Greninja. Also, you have to play a major prediction war against things like Sub Gengar and Garchomp. Not to mention every fighting type in OU including Conkeldurr, Breloom, Keldeo, MegaLucario, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Infernape.

Idk, its always a lot easier to come up with a proban arguement than it is to come up with an antiban arguement. In theory, Terrakion in BW1 was easily Uber, since it had no counters bar the unviable Slowbro (and Gliscor I suppose), but people managed to find ways to deal with it like Scizor and revenging it and not letting it come in. There are always going to be uncounterable Pokemon in the metagame.

That being said, it can be slapped on any team, instantly make it better, and just go to town. I think its going to be banned Round 1, so why not just get rid of it now so we can use Round 1 more productively and test Deo S.
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252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 177-210 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Such a great check, isn't it? It can block PuP, but shouldn't the Kangaskhan player be using Crunch on the obvious switch anyways? And if Kangaskhan stays non-Mega, and PuPs, and Gourgeist is damaged a bit before (quite likely):

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 264-312 (70.5 - 83.4%)

Ghosts require a lot of prediction to use correctly against Mega Kangaskhan. You have to predict the Mega, predict the PuP, and if you fail you just lost your check.

Sableye is one of the few reliable checks to Mega Kangaskhan. A lot of things can check it but if they have a little prior damage (a lot of revenge killers will have some prior damage), then something along these lines:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Breloom: 153-181 (58.3 - 69%)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Terrakion: 139-163 (42.9 - 50.3%)

happens. Plus it's not like Mega Kangaskhan only has one shot at it either.

BW1 Terrakion was played around by VoltTurn teams in general, Scizor, Rotom-W, and those kind. Scarf Terrakion back then was terrifying, but that was beaten by Gliscor, while SD was easily revenged by Scizor, and Band was taken down by faster stuff. It did not require the loss of a mon to beat it every single time, and it really only had one shot at a DoubleDance sweep if it wanted to do that. Mega Kangaskhan can come in and out repeatedly, set up repeatedly, wear down (and by wear down I mean WEAR DOWN) its checks, and come back later.

Basically: With Mega Kangaskhan, if you can predict amazingly well, you can beat it with the loss of one mon, often your check. If you mispredict here or there you could end up losing 2 or 3 mons, or just getting swept. With mons like BW1 Terrakion and DPP Gyarados, if you predicted really well, you could beat them or prevent them from doing their job with minimal losses.
 
elroid said:
Although I might be still new to competitive environment, these are the situations that I've mostly faced trouble when using Mega-khan with moveset of Return/PuP/Crunch/EQ

-Prankster Sableye/Klefki for crippling with WoW and Twave
-Ghost types(Sableye,trev,gourgeist) because most of them also pack WoW and immune/resist a few moves. Crunch is usable but sometimes without the +2 to start the momentum sometimes they could not be killed in 1hit. (Protect/disable gengar too but it is rather gimmicky and still not widely used for now from what I heard)
-Steel type that could at least neutralize ground moves (Scizor,ferroseed,genesect). They may not be able to KO khan but it could still injured it badly even when killed because they could at least take 1 or 2 hits even if they are boosted.
-Physical walls such as Gliscor (toxic/protect), skarmory (whirlwind)

Other than that, depending on the enemy the turn used for PuP boosting Khan is pretty vulnerable. From my experience, it rarely kills something even with super effective hits. If it was against sweeper, it might take a heavy blow from it. On the other hand, against wall/stallers there is most likely a status ailment coming.

Although I agree that mega-khan might be a little OP, but it might still yet to be to the point of going into Uber.
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Like we all said, read other comments about the 195827576265 calculations all made.

-We're forced to use Sableye, Klefki. Over-centralizing.
-Second point is basically same as your first point.
-Ferrothorn cannot do fucking jackshit to MKang. Nothing.
-Gliscor and Skarmory cannot hope to wall it. Cannot. NOT AT ALL.

I disagree with your last sentence and it is going Uber.
 
AOPSUser said:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 177-210 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Such a great check, isn't it? It can block PuP, but shouldn't the Kangaskhan player be using Crunch on the obvious switch anyways? And if Kangaskhan stays non-Mega, and PuPs, and Gourgeist is damaged a bit before (quite likely):

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 264-312 (70.5 - 83.4%)

Ghosts require a lot of prediction to use correctly against Mega Kangaskhan. You have to predict the Mega, predict the PuP, and if you fail you just lost your check.

Sableye is one of the few reliable checks to Mega Kangaskhan. A lot of things can check it but if they have a little prior damage (a lot of revenge killers will have some prior damage), then something along these lines:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Breloom: 153-181 (58.3 - 69%)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Terrakion: 139-163 (42.9 - 50.3%)

happens. Plus it's not like Mega Kangaskhan only has one shot at it either.

BW1 Terrakion was played around by VoltTurn teams in general, Scizor, Rotom-W, and those kind. Scarf Terrakion back then was terrifying, but that was beaten by Gliscor, while SD was easily revenged by Scizor, and Band was taken down by faster stuff. It did not require the loss of a mon to beat it every single time, and it really only had one shot at a DoubleDance sweep if it wanted to do that. Mega Kangaskhan can come in and out repeatedly, set up repeatedly, wear down (and by wear down I mean WEAR DOWN) its checks, and come back later.

Basically: With Mega Kangaskhan, if you can predict amazingly well, you can beat it with the loss of one mon, often your check. If you mispredict here or there you could end up losing 2 or 3 mons, or just getting swept. With mons like BW1 Terrakion and DPP Gyarados, if you predicted really well, you could beat them or prevent them from doing their job with minimal losses.
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Dude, it's okay, we win, it's over.
 
superstar said:
Now, what are some good checks for this set. Gourgeist Super is a great check, able to tank pretty much everything, block PUP, and threaten a burn. Unfortunately, it doesnt get reliable recovery though. Sabelye and Skarm and Gliscor and Ferrothorn and Gyro Ball Forretress and Superpower Lando T and PhysDef SD Scizor and Heatran (kinda, watch out for terrible EQ sets) are also ways I have found to deal with it. You can nitpick that list a bit, but its not like Kanga can just waltz in and 6-0 you. It also doesnt have any resists other than Ghost, so it is somewhat difficult for it to find a way to enter the battle without losing a lot of health against offensive teams. You pretty much have to come in after a kill.

As far as the revenge goes, well, there are a ton of things that can revenge it, and people really need to stop pretending there arent. Slower scarfers like Superpower TTar or Hydregion can do a good job, as can things like CB Talonflame or Greninja. Also, you have to play a major prediction war against things like Sub Gengar and Garchomp. Not to mention every fighting type in OU including Conkeldurr, Breloom, Keldeo, MegaLucario, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Infernape.
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Skarm and Ferrothorn aren't checks. They're sacrifices to die to MKhan and that's assuming MKhan isn't parterning with a Magnezone.

Gliscor gets destroyed by +2 Return.
Honestly, most of that list gets destroyed by +2 MKhan.

and MKhan doesn't have to stay in on Sableye. It can easily switch to something that doesn't care about burns.

Speaking of switches, those revenges are assuming MKhan decides to say and and a good amount of them can't even guarantee a OHKO on a Healthy MKhan.
 
KztxL7 said:
Skarm and Ferrothorn aren't checks. They're sacrifices to die to MKhan and that's assuming MKhan isn't parterning with a Magnezone.

Gliscor gets destroyed by +2 Return.
Honestly, most of that list gets destroyed by +2 MKhan.

and MKhan doesn't have to stay in on Sableye. It can easily switch to something that doesn't care about burns.

Speaking of switches, those revenges are assuming MKhan decides to say and and a good amount of them can't even guarantee a OHKO on a Healthy MKhan.
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SansNickel said:
Dude, it's okay, we win, it's over.
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Ok, I'll write this on big to make it clear:

Gourgeist, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Trevenant, Gliscor, Gengar, Jellicent and Heatran DON'T AND WILL NEVER COUNTER MEGAKANGASHKAN.

THE END.

(And don't bring up Rocky Helmet because that demonstrates our point, MegaKanga overcentralizes)
 
Well then. This thread has gone to sh*t quite fast, then again, after the Gengarite "discussion" I don't know what I expected. As with the Gengarite thread, all the relevant points for and against Kangaskhan have been made quite a ways back in the thread, so unless someone gives a point that hasn't been brought up 20 pages ago that dosen't rely on using something like Eviolite Gligar, which is a gimmick by nature. So, as I've said before, unless any relevant new points are made, this thread has done it's job, and now we're just going in circles here.
 
Kyosuru Jets said:
No 1 how the hell do you know I didn't read it? And no 2, if I go through the log I'll find over 100 different checks and counters proved unworthy? Didn't think so... So don't say we checked everything, we just checked what immediately popped into our heads. I'll be back with a calc against eviolite gligar
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+3 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 189-223 (56.58 - 66.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Did it for you. +3 because th calc I use doesnt factor in Parental Bond (effectively +1) and this assumes 2 PuPs.

After two PuPs, this monster doesnt even have to run adamant to 2hko the bulkiest of eviolite Gligar. And if we're suggesting Eviolite Gligar of all things to be added to a team to counter 1 mon, we know that the mon in question is over centralizing the metagame.

oh wait, let's run a quick calc against Giratina! Surely a mon with 150/120/120 defenses can switch into Kangaskhan, right?


+3 252 Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 270-318 (53.67 - 63.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 286, 288, 292, 294, 298, 302, 304, 308, 310, 314, 318)

Wrong. While Giratina is obviously not in OU, this calc is here more for the sake of demonstrating the brute power MKangaskhan has after 2 PuPs.

Or perhaps we should try Mega Mawile? While the a defensive set certainly would be a poor use of MMawile's abillities, we're already centralizing the metagame around MKanga, so why not?

+3 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 137-162 (45.06 - 53.28%) -- 31.64% chance to 2HKO

This is the absolute bulkiest of Mega Mawile. resists both Dark and Fairy, and has a whopping 125 base defense to boot. almost it's less likely a Scald will burn than you will be able to safely switch in on Mega Kangaskhan.

"But wait!" You may protest, "Mega Mawile would still have Huge Power Sucker Punch to hit it with! Surely that will do a good amount!"

252 Atk Huge Power Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 150-177 (42.61 - 50.28%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO

Mega Mawile has a ~1% chance to 2HKO, while Kangaskhan has a ~32% chance to 2HKO. If Mawile switches in, it will be decimated by Return + Sucker Punch before it can KO Kanga.

Keep in mind these Mawile calcs rule out Fire Punch and Earthquake
 
Ajwf said:
Calcs are missing parental bond. I'm assuming you are using the outdated calc as well, given the name "kangaskhan" over mega kan.
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I wasn't too familiar with the calculator, so I just increased Kangaskhan's Attack by 1.5x to compensate. I also wasn't aware the calculator I was linked to was outdated, could you link me to a more recent one?

EternalZ said:
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 270-318 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your argument is invalid.
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Ok cool, if it's running EQ then Gengar is a hard counter so just switch it in.
 
After analysing the current strategies to deal with Mega Kangaskhan as though we were playing a game of chess, I've gotta say that sacing a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn to stop Mega Kangaskhan is play with a surprisingly high strategic value.

Think about it. If you've got a Ferrothorn, odds are, you're gonna lead with it and put down Stealth Rocks on your first turn. But if you see your opponent has a Kangaskhan in their lineup, pull Ferrothorn out after using Stealth Rock. From then on in, Ferrothorn can remove Mega Kangaskhan.

Say your opponent sends out Kangaskhan on something it can easily force out, or something that can't hurt it. It's gonna Mega Evolve and probably gonna go for the Power-Up Punch so it can sweep, or Return for maximum damage, or Crunch after predicting a Ghost-switch.

You swap your Pokémon out for Ferrothorn!

Mega Kangaskhan fails to kill it unless Ferrothorn's taken a lot of prior damage or it uses Fire Punch, and loses half its health, which, on top of the Stealth Rocks you set up earlier, means that Mega Kangaskhan is well within priority revenging range (about 40%).

If Mega Kangaskhan hits Ferrothorn again, it dies. So you leave Ferrothorn in and go for a Thunder Wave. Either Mega Khan attacks and dies, or it swaps out, and the switch-in gets hit by Thunder Wave, rendering it useless for the rest of the battle. Then you swap your Ferrothorn out again for whatever counters their switch in.

At that point, Mega Kangaskhan cannot attack. Because the moment it gets sent back out, all you have to do is put Ferrothorn back in, and Mega Kangaskhan kills itself by attacking Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn already did it's job: it set up Stealth Rock, and probably TWaved their backup sweeper. You just neutralised the opponents two nuke sweepers with a Ferrothorn.
 
Beating_a_dead_horse_by_pjperez.jpg


Also Kangaskhan doesn't have to attack when it comes in, it could switch out to whatever you have that deals with Ferrothorn immediately.
 
RockStarFish said:
After analysing the current strategies to deal with Mega Kangaskhan as though we were playing a game of chess, I've gotta say that sacing a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn to stop Mega Kangaskhan is play with a surprisingly high strategic value.

Think about it. If you've got a Ferrothorn, odds are, you're gonna lead with it and put down Stealth Rocks on your first turn. But if you see your opponent has a Kangaskhan in their lineup, pull Ferrothorn out after using Stealth Rock. From then on in, Ferrothorn can remove Mega Kangaskhan.

Say your opponent sends out Kangaskhan on something it can easily force out, or something that can't hurt it. It's gonna Mega Evolve and probably gonna go for the Power-Up Punch so it can sweep, or Return for maximum damage, or Crunch after predicting a Ghost-switch.

You swap your Pokémon out for Ferrothorn!

Mega Kangaskhan fails to kill it unless Ferrothorn's taken a lot of prior damage or it uses Fire Punch, and loses half its health, which, on top of the Stealth Rocks you set up earlier, means that Mega Kangaskhan is well within priority revenging range (about 40%).

If Mega Kangaskhan hits Ferrothorn again, it dies. So you leave Ferrothorn in and go for a Thunder Wave. Either Mega Khan attacks and dies, or it swaps out, and the switch-in gets hit by Thunder Wave, rendering it useless for the rest of the battle. Then you swap your Ferrothorn out again for whatever counters their switch in.

At that point, Mega Kangaskhan cannot attack. Because the moment it gets sent back out, all you have to do is put Ferrothorn back in, and Mega Kangaskhan kills itself by attacking Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn already did it's job: it set up Stealth Rock, and probably TWaved their backup sweeper. You just neutralised the opponents two nuke sweepers with a Ferrothorn.
Click to expand...

Or, you know, if you're that smart, don't underestimate your opponent, because most likely it could switch out to his Ferrothorn counter? We have demonstrated that if forced, MegaKanga can take down Ferrothorn one on one. But unless we're on a last pokemon scenario, that's not going to happen soon.
 
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