Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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"b) sacrifice something"
Nice, so we can't check it. Thank you.
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You are forced to sacrifice something. Most checks can find a way in without doing that. For example, Skarmory can come in on a Banded Terrakion's Earthquake. It's a check, since it's 2HKOed by Close Combat, but it can find it's way in.

Kanga will be using P u P 90% of the time on it's first turn. Practically all of it's checks can't come in on that, so sacrificing is an absolute must, not a possibility.
Easy doesn't mean guaranteed guys. It just doesn't.
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Almost guaranteed if the player knows what they are doing.

Happy?
 
The problem with Mega Kanga is that unlike Pinsir (the mon overshadowed by Kanga atm), she has insane power in addition to amazing bulk, and only one exploitable weakness. This is where the problem lies. M.Pinsir's power is kept in check by his frailty and the fact that he's weak to nearly every single relevant attacking type (Ice, Electricity, Fire, Flying, and Rock). Although Pinsir also has great coverage in Ground/Flying you can take him out by exploiting his plethora of weaknesses unlike Khan. Pinsir has checks, Khan does not. If a pokemon does not even have checks then how can it be a candidate for OU?
 
Stop replying to stupid posts please, they kill the discussion. My big problem with these threads is that there are always a lot of terrible users that post terrible antiban arguments that are easily torn down and we get no real discussion.

I do think people are slightly overestimating the ease with which Kanga can sweep. You do have more options to deal with it than hurr durr Sabelye. Its not as good as Blaziken is at sweeping, for instance. Not even close. The set that seems to be deemed the most banworthy is PUP, Crunch, Sucker Punch, and Return. I suppose Fire Punch is okay over Crunch as well, or maybe EQ. It cant run all of these moves on one set, however.

Now, what are some good checks for this set. Gourgeist Super is a great check, able to tank pretty much everything, block PUP, and threaten a burn. Unfortunately, it doesnt get reliable recovery though. Sabelye and Skarm and Gliscor and Ferrothorn and Gyro Ball Forretress and Superpower Lando T and PhysDef SD Scizor and Heatran (kinda, watch out for terrible EQ sets) are also ways I have found to deal with it. You can nitpick that list a bit, but its not like Kanga can just waltz in and 6-0 you. It also doesnt have any resists other than Ghost, so it is somewhat difficult for it to find a way to enter the battle without losing a lot of health against offensive teams. You pretty much have to come in after a kill.

As far as the revenge goes, well, there are a ton of things that can revenge it, and people really need to stop pretending there arent. Slower scarfers like Superpower TTar or Hydregion can do a good job, as can things like CB Talonflame or Greninja. Also, you have to play a major prediction war against things like Sub Gengar and Garchomp. Not to mention every fighting type in OU including Conkeldurr, Breloom, Keldeo, MegaLucario, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Infernape.

Idk, its always a lot easier to come up with a proban arguement than it is to come up with an antiban arguement. In theory, Terrakion in BW1 was easily Uber, since it had no counters bar the unviable Slowbro (and Gliscor I suppose), but people managed to find ways to deal with it like Scizor and revenging it and not letting it come in. There are always going to be uncounterable Pokemon in the metagame.

That being said, it can be slapped on any team, instantly make it better, and just go to town. I think its going to be banned Round 1, so why not just get rid of it now so we can use Round 1 more productively and test Deo S.
 
Scarfed Raptor said:
The problem with Mega Kanga is that unlike Pinsir (the mon overshadowed by Kanga atm), she has insane power in addition to amazing bulk, and only one exploitable weakness. This is where the problem lies. M.Pinsir's power is kept in check by his frailty and the fact that he's weak to nearly every single relevant attacking type (Ice, Electricity, Fire, Flying, and Rock). Although Pinsir also has great coverage in Ground/Flying you can take him out by exploiting his plethora of weaknesses unlike Khan.
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I think you meant Bug/Flying. XP But, yes, I agree completely with this assessment. M-Pinsir has a lot more checks AND a lot more counters than Kanga does. Pinsir just can't switch in on anything, and quite a few OU pokes that are popularly used CAN switch into him and do bad things in return.
 
I do think people are slightly overestimating the ease with which Kanga can sweep. You do have more options to deal with it than hurr durr Sabelye. Its not as good as Blaziken is at sweeping, for instance. Not even close. The set that seems to be deemed the most banworthy is PUP, Crunch, Sucker Punch, and Return. I suppose Fire Punch is okay over Crunch as well, or maybe EQ. It cant run all of these moves on one set, however.
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True, people are overstating it's ability to sweep. But it is really, really good at forcing sacrifices onto a player.
 
I'm honestly a bit surprised that Mega-Kanga is being suspected. While it is definitely a threat there are certainly ways to play around it in the OU tier.
To start off all 3 of the "Muskedeers" (more commonly terrakion) can outspeed and OHKO Mega Kanga and if it chooses to sucker punch they will be provided +2 atk. Other Fighting types of the tier have the bulk to take a hit such as Conk or can hit with a mach punch, both Conk and Breloom. Trevenant and other ghosts can easily handle Kangas lacking Crunch and either willowisp or set up. Dedicated physical walls can status Kanga or phase it (Skarmory,Gliscor,Hippowdon) I definitely believe the OU environment can deal with Kanga.
As for how it would do in the uber tier the popularity of giratina and Darkrai as well as sheer power and bulk of Pokemon such as Kyogre and Reshiram will give Kanga a very hard time. A special mention to Darkrai because as long as sleep clause hasnt been activated, he has an 80% chance to cripple kanga and set up for a sweep.
 
I don't know about any of you guys, but I find the seismic toss variant of MegaKhan to be incredibly threatening.

I see a lot of Talk about the Power up Punch/ Return/ Earthquake/ Suckerpunch Variant, since that is by far the most common one... but guys, I cannot honestly say that Mega-khan is uber material. I mean seriously, give an NU pokemon a weaker version of swords dance (it might KO the pokemon on the first hit, it can be prevented with a ghost switch, iron barbs and rough skin are issues), 20 more base defenses in its defenses and 30 more base attack and suddenly it is being called better than arceus! Granted, it basically has soul dew hard built into it (though it has a few weaknesses)

It is still just a physically attacking set up sweeper. It is still countered by being burnt, by being paralysed (anyone who says that a megakhan with no speed is still a huge threat is just trying to get rid of a pokemon they don't use and don't want to play against because it is just as popular as rotom-W), and most ghosts still wall mega khan by default. Iron barbs still exist on ferrothorn, rocky helmet still exists, and if people are more inclined to use it because of megakhan then let them! It's about time that item got a bit more love, and it is extremely useful against most megas that are being seen.

The scariest and hardest khan to date I have been up against was one that caught me offguard. Seismic toss, knock off, wish, protect. Sounds really silly until parental bond starts hitting your pokemon for 60% unless you are a blissy.

Do I think that Megakhan is broken? No. For basically the same reason I don't think Alikazam with a life orb is. I think mega khan is an incredibly powerful wallbreaker, in both sets that I have seen it run. If your team generically prepares for physical threats (which mind you is MOST of the metagame) then you should not have an issue with mmegakhan. Saying that it can set up and sweep basically means you might as well ban Barbaracle because shell smash is broken on him.

If you get swept by megakhan, chances are you would have been gotten swept by Garchomp with SD as well (unless you were running focus sash, of course)

It would be nice to not have to see it every other game, but...

Vote: OU
 
From what I've read I can pretty much guarantee myself that my Mega Kangaskhan is banned but that just takes it back to unusable in the main meta. I just want to say, it has taken 6 gens to get to be of any real use and now it isn't allowed to be used to its potential. This upsets me because I don't understand why people who lose to it get to ban it from use by the people who like to use it. Sure it is bulky but it isn't unstoppable. None of them are unstoppable. This is new territory for us all. Try to adapt before banning something just because you haven't found a way to beat it yet. We each get only one mega. Choose yours more carefully to consider the threat of mega kanga.
 
and most ghosts still wall mega khan by default.
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Sucker Punch, Crunch, Fire Punch.
Iron barbs still exist on ferrothorn, rocky helmet still exists, and if people are more inclined to use it because of megakhan then let them! It's about time that item got a bit more love, and it is extremely useful against most megas that are being seen.
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Sacrificial Ferrothorns. That's new.
Do I think that Megakhan is broken? No. For basically the same reason I don't think Alikazam with a life orb is.
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Alakazam is an entirely different story. It doesn't get to +2 in just one attack, and it's much easier to swap into.
I just want to say, it has taken 6 gens to get to be of any real use and now it isn't allowed to be used to its potential. This upsets me because I don't understand why people who lose to it get to ban it from use by the people who like to use it.
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A lot of people didn't want gen 4 Garchomp to be banned because of sentimental value.

However, that's not really the best argument as far a balancing goes. Just use it in Ubers when it's banned. Problem solved.
 
Another list of calcs before someone says it.

+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 115-136 (34 - 40.2%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 242-286 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 242-286 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 92-110 (27.2 - 32.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 226-268 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Nope, Bronzong's not a counter either.
 
Dat Aggron said:
I'm honestly a bit surprised that Mega-Kanga is being suspected. While it is definitely a threat there are certainly ways to play around it in the OU tier.
To start off all 3 of the "Muskedeers" (more commonly terrakion) can outspeed and OHKO Mega Kanga and if it chooses to sucker punch they will be provided +2 atk. Other Fighting types of the tier have the bulk to take a hit such as Conk or can hit with a mach punch, both Conk and Breloom. Trevenant and other ghosts can easily handle Kangas lacking Crunch and either willowisp or set up. Dedicated physical walls can status Kanga or phase it (Skarmory,Gliscor,Hippowdon) I definitely believe the OU environment can deal with Kanga.
As for how it would do in the uber tier the popularity of giratina and Darkrai as well as sheer power and bulk of Pokemon such as Kyogre and Reshiram will give Kanga a very hard time. A special mention to Darkrai because as long as sleep clause hasnt been activated, he has an 80% chance to cripple kanga and set up for a sweep.
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Have you not read the hundreds of posts that show the toughest physical walls are 2hko'd and thus cannot switch in?
Do you realize a check is not a revenge killer?
 
Wisdomseyes said:
give an NU pokemon a weaker version of swords dance


Vote: OU
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>weaker version of swords dance
>swords dance does no damage

lH5ExZq.gif
 
Wisdomseyes said:
I don't know about any of you guys, but I find the seismic toss variant of MegaKhan to be incredibly threatening.

I see a lot of Talk about the Power up Punch/ Return/ Earthquake/ Suckerpunch Variant, since that is by far the most common one... but guys, I cannot honestly say that Mega-khan is uber material. I mean seriously, give an NU pokemon a weaker version of swords dance (it might KO the pokemon on the first hit, it can be prevented with a ghost switch, iron barbs and rough skin are issues), 20 more base defenses in its defenses and 30 more base attack and suddenly it is being called better than arceus! Granted, it basically has soul dew hard built into it (though it has a few weaknesses)

It is still just a physically attacking set up sweeper. It is still countered by being burnt, by being paralysed (anyone who says that a megakhan with no speed is still a huge threat is just trying to get rid of a pokemon they don't use and don't want to play against because it is just as popular as rotom-W), and most ghosts still wall mega khan by default. Iron barbs still exist on ferrothorn, rocky helmet still exists, and if people are more inclined to use it because of megakhan then let them! It's about time that item got a bit more love, and it is extremely useful against most megas that are being seen.

The scariest and hardest khan to date I have been up against was one that caught me offguard. Seismic toss, knock off, wish, protect. Sounds really silly until parental bond starts hitting your pokemon for 60% unless you are a blissy.

Do I think that Megakhan is broken? No. For basically the same reason I don't think Alikazam with a life orb is. I think mega khan is an incredibly powerful wallbreaker, in both sets that I have seen it run. If your team generically prepares for physical threats (which mind you is MOST of the metagame) then you should not have an issue with mmegakhan. Saying that it can set up and sweep basically means you might as well ban Barbaracle because shell smash is broken on him.

If you get swept by megakhan, chances are you would have been gotten swept by Garchomp with SD as well (unless you were running focus sash, of course)

It would be nice to not have to see it every other game, but...

Vote: OU
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You know what is funny? All of this has been covered on why these pokemon do not work. Holy crap. It is like a repeating broken record in here...
 
S7ven said:
No...I said get Mega Luc in before they have Mega Kang...
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Because Mega Luke can clearly stay in, defeat every single thing until Mega Kang comes out.

Astrint said:
From what I've read I can pretty much guarantee myself that my Mega Kangaskhan is banned but that just takes it back to unusable in the main meta. I just want to say, it has taken 6 gens to get to be of any real use and now it isn't allowed to be used to its potential. This upsets me because I don't understand why people who lose to it get to ban it from use by the people who like to use it. Sure it is bulky but it isn't unstoppable. None of them are unstoppable. This is new territory for us all. Try to adapt before banning something just because you haven't found a way to beat it yet. We each get only one mega. Choose yours more carefully to consider the threat of mega kanga.
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no. please.
 
Astrint said:
From what I've read I can pretty much guarantee myself that my Mega Kangaskhan is banned but that just takes it back to unusable in the main meta. I just want to say, it has taken 6 gens to get to be of any real use and now it isn't allowed to be used to its potential. This upsets me because I don't understand why people who lose to it get to ban it from use by the people who like to use it. Sure it is bulky but it isn't unstoppable. None of them are unstoppable. This is new territory for us all. Try to adapt before banning something just because you haven't found a way to beat it yet. We each get only one mega. Choose yours more carefully to consider the threat of mega kanga.
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The only mega that can effectively check M.Kangaskhan is Mega Lucario,and it needs to be mega evolved before coming in, or it risks being outsped by Jolly Mega Kangaskhan, and KO'd. Also, nobody's happy that we have have to ban Mega Kangaskhan, but we don't balanced based around making our favorites usable. If you like Kangaskhan, go play NU. It's really great there, and completely viable. I've been playing simulators, and in-game for 2 months. I've used it, and been on the receiving end of it. It's a nuke of a mega, and it is unbalancing the metagame right now.
 
Although I might be still new to competitive environment, these are the situations that I've mostly faced trouble when using Mega-khan with moveset of Return/PuP/Crunch/EQ

-Prankster Sableye/Klefki for crippling with WoW and Twave
-Ghost types(Sableye,trev,gourgeist) because most of them also pack WoW and immune/resist a few moves. Crunch is usable but sometimes without the +2 to start the momentum sometimes they could not be killed in 1hit. (Protect/disable gengar too but it is rather gimmicky and still not widely used for now from what I heard)
-Steel type that could at least neutralize ground moves (Scizor,ferroseed,genesect). They may not be able to KO khan but it could still injured it badly even when killed because they could at least take 1 or 2 hits even if they are boosted.
-Physical walls such as Gliscor (toxic/protect), skarmory (whirlwind)

Other than that, depending on the enemy the turn used for PuP boosting Khan is pretty vulnerable. From my experience, it rarely kills something even with super effective hits. If it was against sweeper, it might take a heavy blow from it. On the other hand, against wall/stallers there is most likely a status ailment coming.

Although I agree that mega-khan might be a little OP, but it might still yet to be to the point of going into Uber.
 
Astrint said:
From what I've read I can pretty much guarantee myself that my Mega Kangaskhan is banned but that just takes it back to unusable in the main meta. I just want to say, it has taken 6 gens to get to be of any real use and now it isn't allowed to be used to its potential. This upsets me because I don't understand why people who lose to it get to ban it from use by the people who like to use it. Sure it is bulky but it isn't unstoppable. None of them are unstoppable. This is new territory for us all. Try to adapt before banning something just because you haven't found a way to beat it yet. We each get only one mega. Choose yours more carefully to consider the threat of mega kanga.
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Play Ubers.

Use Mega Mom.

Make Lugia cry.
 
I'm done! I mean, all kind of arguments have been posted and people still bring up Ferrothorn, Scizor, Gliscor, Skarmory and other walls, when it has been demonstrated that they can't stand to MegaKanga move of choice! We're just going full circles again!

elroid said:
Although I might be still new to competitive environment, these are the situations that I've mostly faced trouble when using Mega-khan with moveset of Return/PuP/Crunch/EQ

-Prankster Sableye/Klefki for crippling with WoW and Twave
-Ghost types(Sableye,trev,gourgeist) because most of them also pack WoW and immune/resist a few moves. Crunch is usable but sometimes without the +2 to start the momentum sometimes they could not be killed in 1hit. (Protect/disable gengar too but it is rather gimmicky and still not widely used for now from what I heard)
-Steel type that could at least neutralize ground moves (Scizor,ferroseed,genesect). They may not be able to KO khan but it could still injured it badly even when killed because they could at least take 1 or 2 hits even if they are boosted.
-Physical walls such as Gliscor (toxic/protect), skarmory (whirlwind)

Other than that, depending on the enemy the turn used for PuP boosting Khan is pretty vulnerable. From my experience, it rarely kills something even with super effective hits. If it was against sweeper, it might take a heavy blow from it. On the other hand, against wall/stallers there is most likely a status ailment coming.

Although I agree that mega-khan might be a little OP, but it might still yet to be to the point of going into Uber.
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No priority makes Kanga mom cry.
 
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