Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[RockStarFish]

Btw, for people who are bringing up that Rocky Helmet mons can counter MegaKhan, there's this nifty little move called Knock Off that MegaKhan's teammates can use, most of them being unexpected.

So if your "counter" to MegaKhan is Rocky Helmet ferro, chomp, or skarm (and Eviolite Dusclops lol) then you'll have to play around Knock Off too or else MegaKhan is gonna have a field day with your leftover-less Ferrothorn.

You're missing my point, which is to use Stealth Rock early, then keep Ferrothorn off the field until they bring in (Mega) Kangaskhan. You don't expose Ferrothorn to the chance of getting Knock Off-ed, and you keep it healthy enough (45%) to survive one hit from a fresh Mega Kangaskhan. That's literally all you need to do; swap Ferrothorn in the moment Mega Kangaskhan hits the field.

If they predict and swap Mega Kangaskhan out for their Ferrothorn counter, then all that happens is you both swap Pokémon on the same turn. Then you just do what you'd normally do when the opponent brings out a Ferrothorn counter. You swap Ferrothorn out for your answer to it.

Or you just sacrificed FERROTHORN of all pokemon for one of your opponents pokemon... Again, Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn has been brought up at least 70,000 times. It still is not reliable enough, and Rockey Helmet is too gimmicky and not optimal on Ferrothorn in general. So. Yeah.

What value is Ferrothorn after setting up Stealth Rock and/or Spikes? Practically none. It can tank attacks, but it doesn't have enough offensive presence to do much. After hazard setting, you use it to TWave or Leech Seed the opponent, to stop or discourage them from trying to set up. Running this doesn't detract from Ferrothorn's usual performance or roles, it enables it to stop Mega Kangaskhan.

Mind you, I'm still in favour of banning Kangaskhanite, I just want to explain why I think Helmethorn is underrated as a pseudo-counter.

 

[KztxL7]

Alakazam skill swap, Alakazam will get Parental Bond and Kangaskhan will get Magic Guard (or Synchronize/Inner Focus). After that you can revenge kill it. Most people would use sucker punch, but it would fail because Skill swap is not an attacking move. Somebody could go for crunch, but Alakazam would live because of focus sash. If they have crunch they most likely don't have sucker punch. Meaning that the next turn Alakazam will go first because he is faster and will OHKO because Alakazam would have Parental bond due to skill swap. Then again Focus Blast could miss, but psychic MIGHT OHKO, I'm not sure on that.

This is also assuming you can get Alakazam in safely.

 

[LordRandomness]

Beating a dead horse yes, but...



http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69377618

I totally agree with you that it's fine and fair for 1 Poke to be way better than the other 5 since both teams get a mega evo. In that case, I'd just make 2-5 of my other 5 Healing Dance / Lunar Dancers so I can use the one over and over.

Clearly, no problem with 1 being better than the rest.


After you've sac'd your Ghost to Will-o-Wisp and all your checks to weaken Kang, i'll just go ahead and throw away one of my "weaker 5 pokes" Lunar Dance on it and beat your ass again. no problems at all. The point: If one Poke is way better than others, there's always ways to use the others to make that one even more broke.

Actually very glad you posted this, I'd forgotten about Healing Wish/Lunar Dance. This isn't even taking into account Cleric or Wish support, or Baton Pass shenanigans. The idea that you can amplify the effectiveness of that one slot is something I'd kinda missed, probably due to inexperience, and it's definitely a winning argument for why we can't just have one higher-powered slot.

 

[jvl101993]

My goodness. I thought the Gengarite thread had really poor anti-ban arguments, but the anti-ban arguments here are just AWFUL.

Mega-Khan needs to be quick-banned. I've read all 1180+ posts, and countless damage-calcs have been given to show Khan's destructive power. It can blast holes in Pokemon that are on teams for the sole purpose to hold it in check. Being forced to run things such as Prankster Sableye/Klefki and forgoing Leftovers on Ferrothorn or LO on Garchomp to run Rocky Helmet is extremely over-centralizing. In order to face Mega-Khan, you have to run a far less optimal team than you could if it didn't exist (already mentioned Sableye/Klefki and RH, but also things like Cofagrigus and Eviolite Dusclops, both of which have been proven repeatedly that THEY DO NOT COUNTER MEGA-KHAN, NOR RELIABLY CHECK IT. Hell: it can OHKO standard Lugia with +2 Return with SR up). It's a great wall-breaker AND end-game sweeper in one. It reaches superb coverage in three moves: STAB Return is great since Normal moves already give solid neutral coverage, and Mega-Khan's STAB Parental Bond Returns are destructive. Add Sucker Punch and Power-Up Punch (though PuP is less coverage and more for its effective 70 BP Taunt-proof SD), and the only Pokemon that aren't hit neutrally by those three attacks are Mawile, Carbink, and Klefki. Now for its 4th move. Crunch is the standard to hit Ghosts on the switch, but Earthquake is there for Aegislash, and Fire Punch exists for Ferrothorn or Skarmory (in Pokebank). Now, you can argue that Mega-Khan cannot run all 6 attacks, therefore giving it 4MSS, but that doesn't really apply since it already eliminates/cripples a lot of Pokemon with just Return/PuP/Sucker Punch. If you run Skarmory and Mega-Khan doesn't run EQ, your Mega-Khan check isn't that effective.

Mega-Khan's sheer power, incredible coverage, and ability to force teams to run multiple situational checks is over-centralizing and detrimental to the game. And I haven't even covered the fact that it has 105/100/100 bulk, which is more than Celebi or Jirachi. It's really hard to take down, it pretty much guarantees that the opponent will have to sac something to ATTEMPT to cripple it. Mega-Luke isn't switching in on any of its attacks, save Crunch/Sucker Punch without getting mauled, and Team Preview means that switching in a Ghost won't be safe. It requires only basic prediction to deduce when a Ghost might switch in to prevent a boost. And if WoW misses, start praying for critical hits. This thing survives 252+ Adamant TechniLoom's LO Mach Punch.

Obscene power, forces less-optimal mons and items on teams, bulkier than some walls, can survive incredibly powerful attacks, and requires basic prediction to make the opponent lose at least 1 Pokemon? That totally sounds fair and unbroken.

Yeah right.

TL;DR - Quick-ban this thing to hell.

 

[DaiGuren]

You're missing my point, which is to use Stealth Rock early, then keep Ferrothorn off the field until they bring in (Mega) Kangaskhan. You don't expose Ferrothorn to the chance of getting Knock Off-ed, and you keep it healthy enough (45%) to survive one hit from a fresh Mega Kangaskhan. That's literally all you need to do; swap Ferrothorn in the moment Mega Kangaskhan hits the field.

If they predict and swap Mega Kangaskhan out for their Ferrothorn counter, then all that happens is you both swap Pokémon on the same turn. Then you just do what you'd normally do when the opponent brings out a Ferrothorn counter. You swap Ferrothorn out for your answer to it.

So basically, you're sacrificing your momentum so you can keep your counter to MegaKhan healthy? If your opponent's Ferrothorn counter is a Fire Blast carrying Garchomp/Salamence then..

 

[Orga777]

What value is Ferrothorn after setting up Stealth Rock and/or Spikes? Practically none. It can tank attacks, but it doesn't have enough offensive presence to do much. After hazard setting, you use it to TWave or Leech Seed the opponent, to stop or discourage them from trying to set up. Running this doesn't detract from Ferrothorn's usual performance or roles, it enables it to stop Mega Kangaskhan.

The problem with that is that the rest of your team will be dwindled down that way, and only matters if EQ is not on said Kanga. And if Ferrothorn cannot set up in the first slot due to your opponent sending out something that hits it too hard or kills it, then it is all for naught. I just do not see this as a viable strategy much of the time.

 

[Edgar81539]

you understand we're talking about pokemon right? my dignity isn't in danger, and also you should learn gamer and spelling before trying to combat it, and you do understand most people play pokemon for fun, it's not supposed to be about rules and teirs, though some are necessary, but my point is I think everyone here should just stop for a second, think about when you first started playing, then come back and see that before you blast someone, that the game is for enjoyment, not rigorous rulings and teir differentiation

You're in Smogon, pal. If you don't like our rules/style of playing, I'll put it simply: GET OUT OF HERE. Nobody is putting a gun to your head, so you play how you want and you let us play how we want. And before we get ad hominem arguments: English isn't even my first language and my grammar is better than yours.

 

[LordRandomness]

you understand we're talking about pokemon right? my dignity isn't in danger, and also you should learn gamer and spelling before trying to combat it, and you do understand most people play pokemon for fun, it's not supposed to be about rules and teirs, though some are necessary, but my point is I think everyone here should just stop for a second, think about when you first started playing, then come back and see that before you blast someone, that the game is for enjoyment, not rigorous rulings and teir differentiation

I'm afraid I have to agree with some of the above responses to this. I enjoy a casual Pokemon battle as much as the next person (I haven't even battled on Showdown yet because I'm kinda nervous about screwing up), but this site is very explicitly for trying to produce the best and healthiest metagame for Pokemon possible with the least adjustments to the "official" metagame, then produce the best teams for that environment. If you're not looking to play for super serious competition, you may be better off battling elsewhere.

 

[jvl101993]

Alakazam skill swap, Alakazam will get Parental Bond and Kangaskhan will get Magic Guard (or Synchronize/Inner Focus). After that you can revenge kill it. Most people would use sucker punch, but it would fail because Skill swap is not an attacking move. Somebody could go for crunch, but Alakazam would live because of focus sash. If they have crunch they most likely don't have sucker punch. Meaning that the next turn Alakazam will go first because he is faster and will OHKO because Alakazam would have Parental bond due to skill swap. Then again Focus Blast could miss, but psychic MIGHT OHKO, I'm not sure on that.

That's extremely unreliable.

1. You can't switch in reliably. Switch in, eat an attack, and you're going to be down your Mega-Khan check instantly since Parental Bond hits through Focus Sashes. Again, you're forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to bring your check in.

2. You're running Skill Swap, a pretty gimmicky move, solely to deal with Mega-Khan. You're making Alakazam worse by forgoing an attack to deal with a single, specific Pokemon.

3. Say you do bring in Alakazam safely, and you select Skill Swap. Okay. You use Skill Swap, I use Return and break your Sash. Now, you attack, I use Sucker Punch. You have now done 0 damage to me, and I am free to switch out and regain Parental Bond. You're down a Pokemon that has effectively done nothing.

 

[Jaded_Hades]

It's powerful, and if it wasn't for it having Power-Up Punch and Sucker Punch, it would be tolerable. Focus sash can't stand up to it, you have to have a phasing move or a powerful revenge killer that can take a Sucker Punch (which at +2 is pretty damn hard to manage for most sans Lucario). Mega Kangaskhan is also reasonably bulky. FWIW, I'd say it is not invincible (I never got swept by one, but damn, that thing can wreck an unprepared team) but it is too powerful and overused for OU.

 

[FinalEquin0x]

To anyone who said Dusclops was a M Khan counter,

Kangaskhan used Crunch!
It's super effective! The opposing Dusclops lost 70% of its health!
It's super effective! The opposing Dusclops lost 30% of its health!
Hit 2 time(s)!

The opposing Dusclops fainted!

Ingratati sent out Aegislash!

Not sure if its still relevant, but it was Max Hp/Max Defense Bold

M Khan was +2 252 Atk Jolly

 

[Edgar81539]

I never said I didn't like the rules, I'm just saying that I've looked through the thread and you mostly blasted people's ideas, while providing few, if any, self generated ideas

Page 23. I was one of the first posting that MegaKangashkan gets to pick her counters and posted the calculations for Ferrothorn, Quagsire and Skarmory. Try to read them, I'm tired of doing calcs and calcs again and again just to demonstrate the same point over and over.

 

[trickmasterj]

That's extremely unreliable.

1. You can't switch in reliably. Switch in, eat an attack, and you're going to be down your Mega-Khan check instantly since Parental Bond hits through Focus Sashes. Again, you're forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to bring your check in.

2. You're running Skill Swap, a pretty gimmicky move, solely to deal with Mega-Khan. You're making Alakazam worse by forgoing an attack to deal with a single, specific Pokemon.

3. Say you do bring in Alakazam safely, and you select Skill Swap. Okay. You use Skill Swap, I use Return and break your Sash. Now, you attack, I use Sucker Punch. You have now done 0 damage to me, and I am free to switch out and regain Parental Bond. You're down a Pokemon that has effectively done nothing.

as to point three, what if he were to not attack, sending in an infernape with the other of the sustainer items(I forgot it's name at the moment) and close combat him out

infernape not being specific, it's just what po pped into my head

 

[elroid]

My previous argument was based on khan would eventually die down. But after reading many of the previous posts that notes about having to sacrifice 1 or most likely 2 to at least disable it, I would support the ban too. This is indeed very unhealthy for a metagame.

Btw, what would you guys think about Ditto as a check to Khan? But again, it would still need to assume something was sacrificed in order to switch in freely without taking any hit from khan. Theres also the thing about most dittos run scarf to outspeed but limited to one move or not using scarf instead for the risky 50/50 chance to move first.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

To anyone who said Dusclops was a M Khan counter,

Kangaskhan used Crunch!
It's super effective! The opposing Dusclops lost 70% of its health!
It's super effective! The opposing Dusclops lost 30% of its health!
Hit 2 time(s)!

The opposing Dusclops fainted!

Ingratati sent out Aegislash!

Not sure if its still relevant, but it was Max Hp/Max Defense Bold

M Khan was +2 252 Atk Jolly

To be fair, a Ghost type counter has already failed its job if it's allowed Kang to get to +2. That said, Crunch still 2HKOs at +0 so Dusclops isn't a good counter at all regardless.

 

[jvl101993]

What value is Ferrothorn after setting up Stealth Rock and/or Spikes? Practically none. It can tank attacks, but it doesn't have enough offensive presence to do much. After hazard setting, you use it to TWave or Leech Seed the opponent, to stop or discourage them from trying to set up. Running this doesn't detract from Ferrothorn's usual performance or roles, it enables it to stop Mega Kangaskhan.

RH only really works on Ferrothorn, and even then, I'm not a huge fan of it. Ferrothorn really appreciates Lefties recovery since it increases its longevity a good bit. The compounded damage to contact attackers is nice, but in Gen VI, when Defog makes getting rid of hazards easier, you want Ferrothorn recovering as much HP per turn as possible, especially if Ferro is your SR user (even if it isn't, standard Ferro uses Spikes, and getting even 1 layer up is helpful). Ferrothorn has great bulk, but it can't tank massive attacks AND re-set hazards as effectively if it doesn't run Lefties.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

My previous argument was based on khan would eventually die down. But after reading many of the previous posts that notes about having to sacrifice 1 or most likely 2 to at least disable it, I would support the ban too. This is indeed very unhealthy for a metagame.

Btw, what would you guys think about Ditto as a check to Khan? But again, it would still need to assume something was sacrificed in order to switch in freely without taking any hit from khan. Theres also the thing about most dittos run scarf to outspeed but limited to one move or not using scarf instead for the risky 50/50 chance to move first.

Regarding Ditto. Ditto Loses 1v1 to +0 Kang (everything fails to KO, other kang free to switch moves), 50-50s fully health +2 kang 1v1 (sucker punch fails to KO but regular kangs DOES OHKO due to Ditto's lower HP) and guarantees the KO on +3 or higher. Not reliable at all.

 

[Wisp]

Alakazam skill swap, Alakazam will get Parental Bond and Kangaskhan will get Magic Guard (or Synchronize/Inner Focus). After that you can revenge kill it. Most people would use sucker punch, but it would fail because Skill swap is not an attacking move. Somebody could go for crunch, but Alakazam would live because of focus sash. If they have crunch they most likely don't have sucker punch. Meaning that the next turn Alakazam will go first because he is faster and will OHKO because Alakazam would have Parental bond due to skill swap. Then again Focus Blast could miss, but psychic MIGHT OHKO, I'm not sure on that.

You're forgetting parental bond breaks the sash in the first place, Alakazam wouldn't even live a single turn.

 

[Patyki3]

One of the kangaskhanite counters I have found is Terrakion, which resists sucker punches and gains attack boosts, and can OHKO with close combat. The only chance of beating one is to carry a strong, fast fighting type that can take a sucker punch at plus two and OHKO back. Lucario and Terrakion are the some of the few pokemon that can check megaKhan. There aren't enough counters in bank or OU, so I believe it should be banned as well.

 

[Mortrialus]

My previous argument was based on khan would eventually die down. But after reading many of the previous posts that notes about having to sacrifice 1 or most likely 2 to at least disable it, I would support the ban too. This is indeed very unhealthy for a metagame.

Btw, what would you guys think about Ditto as a check to Khan? But again, it would still need to assume something was sacrificed in order to switch in freely without taking any hit from khan. Theres also the thing about most dittos run scarf to outspeed but limited to one move or not using scarf instead for the risky 50/50 chance to move first.

There are calculations in the Kangaskhan OU thread. Not even Scarfed Ditto can reliably take down a +2 Megaskhan and is easily KO'd thanks to its lesser HP.

 

[Orga777]

My previous argument was based on khan would eventually die down. But after reading many of the previous posts that notes about having to sacrifice 1 or most likely 2 to at least disable it, I would support the ban too. This is indeed very unhealthy for a metagame.

Btw, what would you guys think about Ditto as a check to Khan? But again, it would still need to assume something was sacrificed in order to switch in freely without taking any hit from khan. Theres also the thing about most dittos run scarf to outspeed but limited to one move or not using scarf instead for the risky 50/50 chance to move first.

Ditto cannot survive the +2 hits due to its lower HP. This was also covered.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Oh, and stop with Terrakion.... over and over and over and over... it was already explained why this does not work safely against Kanga, and it cannot even switch in safely.

 

[Aura Flare Riolu]

One of the kangaskhanite counters I have found is Terrakion, which resists sucker punches and gains attack boosts, and can OHKO with close combat. The only chance of beating one is to carry a strong, fast fighting type that can take a sucker punch at plus two and OHKO back. Lucario and Terrakion are the some of the few pokemon that can check megaKhan. There aren't enough counters in bank or OU, so I believe it should be banned as well.

Thing is, they can't come in on Earthquake or they're OHKOed.

 

[Orga777]

Thing is, they can't come in on Earthquake or they're OHKOed.

CAn't come in for fear of PuP, either.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Beating a dead horse yes, but...



http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69377618

I totally agree with you that it's fine and fair for 1 Poke to be way better than the other 5 since both teams get a mega evo. In that case, I'll just go ahead and make 2-5 of my other 5 Healing Dance / Lunar Dancers so I can use the one over and over.

Clearly, no problem with 1 being better than the rest.


After you've sac'd your Ghost to Will-o-Wisp and all your checks to weaken Kang, i'll just go ahead and throw away one of my "weaker 5 pokes" Lunar Dance on it and beat your ass again. no problems at all. The point: If one Poke is way better than others, there's always ways to use the others to make that one even more broke.

Unlike the dick measuring contest dominating the space between our posts, this is a fantastic post both for its new point and its active demonstration. Yes, the opposing player isn't the greatest (not having Sash on his lead Scole, for instance) but it shows how easily three pokemon essentially become three Mega Kangas. Especially with Lunar Dance and Screens for status healing and megabulk.

Perhaps YOU could start purging this tumor of a thread?

 

[Edgar81539]

One of the kangaskhanite counters I have found is Terrakion, which resists sucker punches and gains attack boosts, and can OHKO with close combat. The only chance of beating one is to carry a strong, fast fighting type that can take a sucker punch at plus two and OHKO back. Lucario and Terrakion are the some of the few pokemon that can check megaKhan. There aren't enough counters in bank or OU, so I believe it should be banned as well.

It can't come into PUP. 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 141-168 (43.6 - 52%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Dies to Sucker Punch then

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 139-163 (43 - 50.4%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO