You should replace Return with Rock Slide or Power-Up Punch. I used physical Greninja two or three times and it was fun. I remember I Rock Slided and OHKO'd a Charizard or something and it felt great.
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Pokémon Greninja
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I just assume it has to do with priority, being on the physical side and all (save the very rare Vacuum Wave).
I personally like simple things that work better than complicated sets that don't do the job quite the same. I like to give Greninja a good old classic Choice Specs, sometimes even Choice Scarf but I like Specs better.
Usual set I give Greninja:
252 Speed/252 Special Attack/4 Attack with Naive nature (+Speed, -SpD) @ Protean, Choice Specs
-U-Turn
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
I am not the guy to go into detail as to why this set is good or how much damage it does to different Pokemon, I've just used this set several times with much success, Greninja hits really hard and it does the job most of the times with Protean involved with the nice STAB for all moves; it's a nice super offensive set that isn't too hard to use. I feel like Greninja is underestimated and needs more usage because Protean is too good not to abuse.
Usual set I give Greninja:
252 Speed/252 Special Attack/4 Attack with Naive nature (+Speed, -SpD) @ Protean, Choice Specs
-U-Turn
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
I am not the guy to go into detail as to why this set is good or how much damage it does to different Pokemon, I've just used this set several times with much success, Greninja hits really hard and it does the job most of the times with Protean involved with the nice STAB for all moves; it's a nice super offensive set that isn't too hard to use. I feel like Greninja is underestimated and needs more usage because Protean is too good not to abuse.
It's because of priority mainly, it's so popular that it's better to give Greninja less special defense because you want it to take Bullet Punches, Quick Attacks, Aqua Jets, etc. You don't really see Vacuum Wave anyway, so why not give it Naive. You'd be surprised on how much damage Greninja takes from resisted hits because it's so frail.
How are you going to hit first if Toxicroak is using priority (Vacuum Wave)?
Well, I was responding to alexwolf's post about using hp fire against dry skin toxicroak. And common toxicroak sets don't run nasty plot.
Extrasensory's main use would be for Tentacruel and Mega-Venusaur. Toxicroak just happens to fall under that category.
^ And Assault Vest Conkeldurr and Azumarill, both of which avoid the 2HKO from Hydro Pump but are 2HKOed by Extrasensory, with the help of SR in Azumarill's case.
Also Keldeo, which is OHKOed by Extrasensroy, while avoiding the 2HKO from Greninja's other common moves.
Also Keldeo, which is OHKOed by Extrasensroy, while avoiding the 2HKO from Greninja's other common moves.
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Why do people act like his Attack stat is terrible? It's 8 points lower than its SpA (roughly what, 16 points at lv100?) Considering how damage is calculated, this is a minuscule difference. That said I've had a good deal of success with this set:
Greninja @Protean, Choice Band
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252+ Spd
Waterfall
Return / Night Slash
Shadow Sneak / Quick Attack
U-Turn
The 252+ Speed allows it to outspeed most anything that isn't boosted/scarfed/priority, and the 252 Atk, with Band and STAB, hits quite hard.
Don't knock it 'til you try it. Yes, I realize a special set could do more damage, but the main draws to a set like this are: U-Turn that does more than tickle, and priority (Can run Night Slash+QA over Return+SS, it's preference and team based.)
Greninja @Protean, Choice Band
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252+ Spd
Waterfall
Return / Night Slash
Shadow Sneak / Quick Attack
U-Turn
The 252+ Speed allows it to outspeed most anything that isn't boosted/scarfed/priority, and the 252 Atk, with Band and STAB, hits quite hard.
Don't knock it 'til you try it. Yes, I realize a special set could do more damage, but the main draws to a set like this are: U-Turn that does more than tickle, and priority (Can run Night Slash+QA over Return+SS, it's preference and team based.)
The main gripe about physical sets are the moves' power. Compare Waterfall to Hydro Pump. Night Slash to Dark Pulse, and overall its physical movepool to its special movepool, and you'd see that its physical options are substantially weaker than its special options as a whole.
True, in most cases his special side is the better one. However, just like specsmence, there's a certain niche and surprise factor to the other offensive side. I use offensive semi-suicide lead greninja. The thing is, greninja is one of the fastest, strongest U-turn user in Pokémon thanks to Protean Stab. If you want to maximize your U-turn damage, the physical variant comes to mind. The physical variant also has 3 STAB priority moves, which is also a nice addition. So for a max-damage variant I would say: Use special attack. And for a utility I would say: Use Attack.
Definitely want the Timid/Naive, you don't want to be slower than Alakazam, Dugtrio, Starmie, Scarf Magnezone, Tornadus, Gengar, Lati@s, Espeon, Infernape, and Terrakion, all of which you are slower than if you run Modest but are faster than if you run Timid.
You can try running a Choice Scarf Set. Perhaps:
Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Nature: Modest
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Extrasensory/Grass Knot/Hidden Power if it's a good one (Fire/Electric/Fighting/Flying/Ground)/U-turn
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Choice Specs is also an option with Modest for a good wallbreaker. It'd play similar to Specs Keldeo which also went with Modest sometimes to get important K.Os.
Would that be with the same move set and spread as the Choice Scarf?
I think the same moves, but you'd want to tweak the speed EVs to make sure you're not wasting any and put the rest in bulk. Basically you always want to be 1 point (and no more) above a certain threshold, that threshold is up to you.
I'm new to the competitive scene and I would like to know if a modest nature greninja would be good.
The loss of speed probably isn't worth it. By running Modest over Timid, you are outsped by a large group of Pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Tornadus, Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Mega Lucario, Starmie, and Alakazam, each of which you would be able to outspeed with a Timid nature. Being able to outspeed these threats is pretty important since Greninja can actually keep many them in check with its STAB-boosted Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse.
But modest doesn't harm speed. It increase special attack and reduces attack. Or are you saying that speed is more important?
Yeah I wouldn't recommend it at all outside a Choice Specs set and even there Timid is probably better overall.
Yes, speed is way more important.
Speed is like the most important statistic on frail swepers/wallbreakers like Greninja. You want as much speed as possible to avoid taking hit before you can dish one out. In 99% of cases you'll find yourself pretty much always going for Speed instead of additional power on frail Pokemon like our ninja frog. ONLY exception where I may find Modest Nature acceptable is if you run Sticky Web support and you are confident you can keep it up on field, but it's still kind of a gamble, which can be easily stopped by Rapid Sping (especially if you don't run ghost) or Defog (although good thing is that many Defog users don't like taking hits from Greninja).
K I understand. Thanks
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