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I'd like to clarify that Sableye is not at all banned in any sense of the word. I have seen very few good arguments towards it being banned, and there are plenty of things that can beat it, just stop using teams that are weak to it. For example, just about any offensive fairy can beat it one-on-one (and Aromatisse can beat it defensively), any faster prankster taunt beats it (Thundurus is a good candidate in particular), and if all else fails, just play better around it, it's a pretty transparent Pokemon.
 
If you want a couple good checks to Sableye, Arceus-Fairy and Mega Gardevoir both deal massive damage with Pixie Plate Judgment and Pixilate Hyper Voice, respectively, and are immune to the secondary effect of Knock Off while having Recover and Wish to heal.
 
Staryu/Starmie seems like an amazing spinner in this meta, she got great bulk and reliable recovery, the only spinner with it, the decision comes down to whether you want the Psychic typing or not, and while not being weak to spin blockers is a great asset you also lose resistance to fighting, psychic STAB and Grass Knot & Trick Room as the most important moves it gains with the change, otherwise they are pretty interchangeable (while Analytic / Natural Cure basically comes down to either you want a bulky offense mon or a wall resistant to status)
 
About sableye, to be afair, EVERYONE that has been playing it for the last few days has agreed not to use it. As in, the whole community that's going up here. I feel like if the community believes something is broken, and should be banned, it should be banned, as the meta is about what the community wants.
 
TheBurgerKing99 said:
About sableye, to be afair, EVERYONE that has been playing it for the last few days has agreed not to use it. As in, the whole community that's going up here. I feel like if the community believes something is broken, and should be banned, it should be banned, as the meta is about what the community wants.
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I can summarize your argument with the classic uneducated OU argument "omg Jirachi Body Slam Iron Head I can't attack its broken pls ban."

Seriously, there are ways around Sableye. Doing enough damage to force it to Recover will give setup opportunities or a chance for a surprise Taunt from the likes of Hydreigon. Run Houndoom, who can set up Nasty Plot in its face, resists Dark and Ghost, and gets a boost from Will-O-Wisp. Throw a Mega Absol at it and watch it not do anything. Alternatively, just hit it with a strong Moonblast.
 
Arcticblast said:
I can summarize your argument with the classic uneducated OU argument "omg Jirachi Body Slam Iron Head I can't attack its broken pls ban."

Seriously, there are ways around Sableye. Doing enough damage to force it to Recover will give setup opportunities or a chance for a surprise Taunt from the likes of Hydreigon. Run Houndoom, who can set up Nasty Plot in its face, resists Dark and Ghost, and gets a boost from Will-O-Wisp. Throw a Mega Absol at it and watch it not do anything. Alternatively, just hit it with a strong Moonblast.
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Two things. One: Calling me uneducated for having a differing opinion than you is pretty shitty. Also, I would assume that so far, I've played this meta more than you, and therefore know more about it. And two, just because it's possible to play around something does not mean it's not broken. Sableye is simply overwhelming to any team that hasn't prepared for it, and is still very dangerous against those that have. Again, it was difficult enough to face that people agreed not to use it, as it was too dangerous. Think about it this way: It's possible to beat sableye if you have the right team for it, but otherwise you're screwed.
 
He's not calling you uneducated at all, and especially not for having a differing opinion. He's calling your shitty arguments uneducated.

The metagame has been out for a whopping two days, and people are already jumping for things to get banned. Learn to play around things rather than quickly jumping to ban them when they beat you. A good example of this can be found in the replay posted earlier where the opponent had nothing that could break Sableye. Here's a thought: try out alternatives to current members of your team in order to not get 6-0'd by Sableye. When you find you can't beat something in OU, what do you do? You cover that threat, whether its a defensive threat or an offensive one. Just because this is an OM doesn't mean you don't need to do that here as well.
TheBurgerKing99 said:
Sableye is simply overwhelming to any team that hasn't prepared for it, and is still very dangerous against those that have. Again, it was difficult enough to face that people agreed not to use it, as it was too dangerous. Think about it this way: It's possible to beat sableye if you have the right team for it, but otherwise you're screwed.
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These arguments can be applied to literally any Pokemon in any tier. If you aren't prepared for something, you are going to lose to it. Let the metagame stabilize before we start jumping to ban everything, and learn to make good points before I start taking you seriously.
 
Things that lose 1v1 against Sableye:
  • Physical attackers
  • Non-fairy special attackers
  • Defensively invested fairy-type special attackers
  • Pokemon that rely on status moves, like walls
Things that win 1v1 against Sableye:
  • Offensive Magic Bounce Pokemon (defensive can't 2HKO and die to recover + s-toss/foul play
  • Offensively invested fairy-type special attackers
  • Offensive fire-types that can 2HKO (Victini in particular)
  • Surprise taunt
  • Magic Guard
  • Aromatisse
  • Opposing Sableye that has more speed or wins the tie
The only Pokemon that fit the second categories that aren't horribly outclassed and unviable are Clefable, Victini, Offensive Espeon and Xatu (still have to watch for foul play), Talonflame, and a few taunters that can hit it while it's recovering. The vast majority of teams will probably contain 4-5 pokemon that just straight up lose to Sableye, and because Sableye can use recover, it can't be weakened by something to be brought down by something else. Stall just straight up loses to Sableye + Cleric. All in all, I believe Sableye to be far too unbalanced for the tier, and thus should be banned.
 
Treecko said:
He's not calling you uneducated at all, and especially not for having a differing opinion. He's calling your shitty arguments uneducated.

The metagame has been out for a whopping two days, and people are already jumping for things to get banned. Learn to play around things rather than quickly jumping to ban them when they beat you. A good example of this can be found in the replay posted earlier where the opponent had nothing that could break Sableye. Here's a thought: try out alternatives to current members of your team in order to not get 6-0'd by Sableye. When you find you can't beat something in OU, what do you do? You cover that threat, whether its a defensive threat or an offensive one. Just because this is an OM doesn't mean you don't need to do that here as well.

These arguments can be applied to literally any Pokemon in any tier. If you aren't prepared for something, you are going to lose to it. Let the metagame stabilize before we start jumping to ban everything, and learn to make good points before I start taking you seriously.
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I personally never had much trouble with sableye, both due to a lack of not actually seeing it much, and running clefable on like every team. I want it banned mainly due to the fact that everyone that was playing agreed it was way too powerful, and that to me says something. I may be completely wrong.
 
Gentlemen's agreements do not define metagames. Otherwise fighting goonery (adjusted as fighting is typically a response to goonery) in hockey would not be a thing. If you operate under the assumption that no one will use Sableye because it's unfair, then of course you will lose to Sableye every time you face it. You did not prepare for it.

EDIT: Also, lol @ the argument "I've (probably) played way more of this 2 day old metagame than you have, so clearly I know what I'm talking about and you don't"
 
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Not all physical attackers lose 1v1 vs sableye. Talonflame and Charizard X can't be burned, Charizard can win against sableye with the proper prediction as it gets both DD and SD, and flame's priority ties with sableye and depending on EV investment, flame's priority can outspeed.

The only reason I'm not using sableye is because so far, everyone I faced wants sableye banned (I think?) so I figured I'd use a team that doesn't have it against them, just for the sake of sportsmanship. I have a team with sableye if the need rises.
 
Sableye is definitely the strongest (unbanned) Pokémon in this metagame and isn't dealt with as easily as a lot of people are implying. The only things that can reliably break it are powerful Fire-type Choice Band users (Victini is one of the best counters, yet it still can't switch into Foul Play), Fairy-types with heavy investment into Special Attack (rarely worthwhile except against Sableye) and powerful Choice Specs users.

You can't "set up on it" because it has priority taunt, and it's bulky enough that it can afford a misprediction. Comments like "use a faster Prankster user" are silly because there aren't any in this metagame (not to mention they can be Taunted on the switch-in). Magic Bounce users are great but having to shape them into Sableye counters when they're better off as support Pokémon is also almost never worthwhile. Espeon and Xatu are both weak to Sableye's STAB and Absol can't switch in until after it has Mega Evolved due to fearing Will-O-Wisp (also it's otherwise mediocre in this metagame anyway).

I'm not necessarily saying it should be banned but the fact people already can only come up extremely niche counters pretty much sums it up. Consider that Sableye is pretty much OU normally, in a metagame where it has 50/75/60 defenses and other OU Pokémon have up to base 170 Attack, and it's clear that a Sableye with 100/100/100 defenses up against other Pokémon with a maximum of base 100 (Special) Attack has pretty much everything skewed disproportionately in its favour. The metagame is more enjoyable without it. If it's not banned then expect to see it on every single team.

Also, I'm pretty sure a Mega Gengar with Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball can trap and beat every Sableye counter mentioned so far, so there's that too.
 
I just want to say, I got 6-0'd by mainly Sableye (but it was one of my first Averagemons battles so idk). I might not have been prepared, but a WALL that can 6-0 teams is pretty unhealthy. I mean, sure, walls are supposed to status and then shuffle (depending on their function), but Sableye just sits in there, Will-o-Wisps, and just spams priority Recover. Since there aren't many counters to Sableye (I mean there are, but mostly of a single type), the teams are going to become:
Sableye/Sableye Counter/Sableye Counter/Counter for Sableye Counter/Counter for Sableye Counter/Counter for Sableye Counter. Everything's gonna become based around Sableye, really only leaving you 5 slots to work with.

And since most Sableye counters are Fire or Fairy, something that resists those can easily wall them. *cough* Heatran *cough* And then we'll need to start finding counters for Heatran, and then counters for those, and so on. Sableye IS unhealthy for this meta. I realize its not banned, but there's literally no way to stop it if they have the right teammates. Sure, the same could be said for any Pokemon, but remember, when in danger, Sableye can just switch out.

I realize it's not banned, but as a community, we all decided not to use it. We might be wrong, but even from a few games, we all said, "Damn, this thing's too powerful."

And don't yell at me if you disagree with anything I'm saying. It's just what I think.
 
SHROOMISH can unleash a fast spore (with Quick Feet/Flame Orb).

At fully invested and 100% health, Final Gambit is also a guaranteed OHKO against any Pokemon except Ghosts.
 
Sableye isn't broken in my opinion now that I overview it, it's just fucking annoying as shit, and whenever I use it I play it wrong, 2 main reasons why I agree not to use it, because I don't like using it since i'm terrible at ti and there's better pokemon to experiment than one we already know is good, for example, who knows if say, AV mandibuzz is good with it's awesome knock offs and neat typing(although it needs those support moves, they're just too good to pass up), who knows if heatran has new niches now? etc. I also am loving the idea of 100 speed heatran btw, such a great typing finally brought to justice with balanced stats. etc, Can we put this debate behind us already? If you want to fucking discuss broken shit talk about something actually broken for it's support or offensive capability, walls have almost never beeen broken because none of them have the combo of typing, movepool, stats and more needed to be broken given to them by game freak, and when they have, ala standard giratina or lugia, they are unbreakable, I don't even see sableye being that great of a true wall when it comes down to it even florges can break it without EVing that much:
76 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 222-264 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and specially defensive variants get wrecked by anything that even tries to invest.
Like I said, there is actual broken shit in the meta, so why not discuss that? (I am not trying to deny anyones freedom of discussion, just saying I think sableye is not broken and I feel it's silly to call it that, argue if you please) OH I don't know how about perish trap mega gengar? Which can blindfoldedly at least bring down 1-2 things with it that wwere crucial counters to one of your sweepers and can single handedly just hunt down and kill any problems to your team, or just go on a more huntive route with coverage moves like the shadow goth line, but with more coverage and deadlier STABs to stop any countertrying to appose a sweep from one of your other pokemon manually (instead of risking it's life htrough perishtrap). which is just as broke as offensive supports get, just look at this:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Corsola: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
one of the most fearsome walls to stop a sweep from talonflame in the body bag and now there's no one left to stop talonflame I wonder who could have made it impossible to stop talon, oh it was good ol mega gar, this can be applied for many sweepers, for instance:
Landorus T: Example Counter: Gliscor- Mega Gengar Coverage move- Icy Wind or hidden power Ice:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blaziken: Example Counter: Talonflame- Mega Gengar Coverage move: Tbolt:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 164-194 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Xerneas: Example Counter: Metagross/Scizor- Mega Gengar coverage move(s): Shadow Ball/Hidden Power fire:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc.
This is legitimately the system I use for sweepers, I don't even use specific pokemon to counter check for my sweepers(unless their counters are known to AV a lot like the slow family, which then I just use something like AV zekrom), I just use mega gar and hope they don't slap on assault vest randomly (which would show signs of overcentralization if something like talon was running AV just to not get counter checked by gengar) which by the way, assault vest is really powerful, not saying it should be banned, but it definatly needs higher amounts of appreciation.

EDIT:
Just sayin' the perish trap set should run physical with sub, perish, protect, fire punch 192 HP/64 Atk/252 Speed just because it handles stuff that shadow ball variants can't, like scizor, the physical move is actually quite filler, but I'm using this alongside xerneas soooo fire punch is the best option for me:
64 Atk Mega Gengar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 232-276 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64 Atk Mega Gengar Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
64 Atk Mega Gengar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
64 Atk Mega Gengar Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 116-138 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc.
 
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Imo, if Sableye should be banned for anything, it should be for the way in which it can completely dismantle stall teams. The meta without Sableye is great because both Stall and Offense are equally viable. I think letting Sableye roam free would have a very negative effect on this balance, making stall much less viable and encouraging the use of heavily offensive teams that don't get messed up by Sableye.

Look at Adrian Marin's list of stall pokemon earlier in the thread. Sableye beats every single one of them 1v1, with the possible exception of Clefable. Prankster Taunt messes with all of them sans Slowking and Exploud. But the best Exploud can do is 3HKO with Boomburst if it's Scrappy, and if it isn't, Surf is an 8HKO at best.

252+ SpA Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Exploud Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 65-77 (16 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Slowking can't do any better:

0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 63-75 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even if it gets a burn, Slowking can't break Sableye, and the best it can do is dragon tail it away.

Sableye can't touch Magic Guard Clefable, but Moonblast still only 3HKO's.

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Clefable has Unaware, then it loses just like everything else.

Another popular stall pokemon is Ho-oh, which is immune to W-o-W, can easily burn Sableye with Sacred Fire, and actually 2HKO's Sableye with Brave Bird + burn damage. However, Pokemon like Tangrowth, Alomomola, and Corsola - all popular stall pokemon - all lose easily to Sableye. If Sableye is running Seismic Toss + WoW as its main damage method, Chandelure walls it, but has to watch out for Foul Play or Knock Off. To deal with Sableye, stall teams have to have an offensive Pokemon or two, at which point they are no longer full stall, and have become some form of semi-stall. All Sableye needs is a cleric and it can easily destroy a stall team, and this is why I feel it is unbalanced and needs to be banned.
 
perplexingpool said:
Imo, if Sableye should be banned for anything, it should be for the way in which it can completely dismantle stall teams. The meta without Sableye is great because both Stall and Offense are equally viable. I think letting Sableye roam free would have a very negative effect on this balance, making stall much less viable and encouraging the use of heavily offensive teams that don't get messed up by Sableye.

Look at Adrian Marin's list of stall pokemon earlier in the thread. Sableye beats every single one of them 1v1, with the possible exception of Clefable. Prankster Taunt messes with all of them sans Slowking and Exploud. But the best Exploud can do is 3HKO with Boomburst if it's Scrappy, and if it isn't, Surf is an 8HKO at best.

252+ SpA Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Exploud Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 65-77 (16 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Slowking can't do any better:

0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 63-75 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even if it gets a burn, Slowking can't break Sableye, and the best it can do is dragon tail it away.

Sableye can't touch Magic Guard Clefable, but Moonblast still only 3HKO's.

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Clefable has Unaware, then it loses just like everything else.

Another popular stall pokemon is Ho-oh, which is immune to W-o-W, can easily burn Sableye with Sacred Fire, and actually 2HKO's Sableye with Brave Bird + burn damage. However, Pokemon like Tangrowth, Alomomola, and Corsola - all popular stall pokemon - all lose easily to Sableye. If Sableye is running Seismic Toss + WoW as its main damage method, Chandelure walls it, but has to watch out for Foul Play or Knock Off. To deal with Sableye, stall teams have to have an offensive Pokemon or two, at which point they are no longer full stall, and have become some form of semi-stall. All Sableye needs is a cleric and it can easily destroy a stall team, and this is why I feel it is unbalanced and needs to be banned.
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Most of this is easily incorrect because the fact that it can dismantle most stall teams is blatantly false because, stall teams have a wide fucking variety of mons to use that take care of it, for example, sdef ho-oh, florges, clefable, pivot darmanitan ,garde and it's mega, aromatisse and more you're honestly just not using stalls options to the fullest imo
 
OiawesomeDG said:
Most of this is easily incorrect because the fact that it can dismantle most stall teams is blatantly false because, stall teams have a wide fucking variety of mons to use that take care of it, for example, sdef ho-oh, florges, clefable, pivot darmanitan ,garde and it's mega, aromatisse and more you're honestly just not using stalls options to the fullest imo
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Aromatisse is outclassed by Clefable outside of its ability to beat Sableye. Florges is outclassed by Clefable. Mega-Gardevoir does beat Sableye, as does Ho-oh, and I guess Darm as well. This is what teammates are for. Sableye will beat 5/6 of stall team on it's own, and once that 1/6 is fainted or even just weakened Sableye sweeps with ease. Remember that this is a meta in which multiple trappers are very viable.
 
Sableye is really not OP at all! All you need to do is be prepared for w-o-w and have a core that you can PP stall it with (this tactic is standard for status-reliant Pokemon in BH) sure, Sableye beats a lot of physical attacking threats but it is way easier to deal with than Mega Kangaskhan, who literally forces every team to use a ghost type and Megengar, who can defeat any Pokemon it wants to.
 
perplexingpool said:
Aromatisse is outclassed by Clefable outside of its ability to beat Sableye. Florges is outclassed by Clefable. Mega-Gardevoir does beat Sableye, as does Ho-oh, and I guess Darm as well. This is what teammates are for. Sableye will beat 5/6 of stall team on it's own, and once that 1/6 is fainted or even just weakened Sableye sweeps with ease. Remember that this is a meta in which multiple trappers are very viable.
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Aromatisse is immune to taunt, that's a big enough niche to be independant imo
 
I know this is a pretty contentless post but for once I wholeheartedly agree with not just one but three consecutive Oiawesome posts.

Also, Trevenant is just as based here as in Doubles. Special Growth in Sun just kills so many things, and with LumRest and Harvest it's not exactly easy to kill.
 
Arcticblast said:
Also, Trevenant is just as based here as in Doubles. Special Growth in Sun just kills so many things, and with LumRest and Harvest it's not exactly easy to kill.
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Yea, I'm using a Jolly set with Harvest Sitrus and Growth, Wood Hammer, Shadow Claw, and Poison Jab. Only reason I'm running physical is to nail those Fairies (doesn't get Sludge Bomb). Actually working better than I expected; I just used it at first to wall Breloom but now it's indispensable.
 
Here's a really good set that I have been using:

alakazam.gif

Stall (Alakazam) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 128 SDef / 8 Spd
Calm Nature
- Psycho Shift
- Recover
- Psychic
- Knock Off

Alakazam has always had a great support movepool but could never really abuse it with such low bulk. In Averagemons, however, it is able to wall and harm a variety of threats such as Breloom, Exeggutor, Amoonguss, basically anything that hates a burn. The main appeal to this set is its status absorbing capabilities and a very consistent way of spreading burns. However, it's not all sunshine for the great magician, Knock Off is very common in the current metagame and it despises losing its ability to burn. Basically, losing its Flame Orb compromises its overall usefulness, so as long as you play wisely, the great Alakazam will serve you well.

EDIT: Is Swords Dance incompatible with Harvest on Exeggutor? Swords Dance will be much more effective than Growth.
 
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Adrian Marin said:
Is Swords Dance incompatible with Harvest on Exeggutor? Swords Dance will be much more effective than Growth.
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It should be, just transfer a Harvest one and TM it Swords Dance. And that Zam set. The new Clefable but with Knock Off. Almost worst than Sableye (lol not really).

EDIT: To make it clearer, it should be compatible. Thought I wasn't clear based on your question.
 
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