Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Well sorry If im not in the fucking 1800+Range like the rest of you. I dont even have a fucking computer to play it on. I have to use my phone so each match is like a half an hour. I started playing competitive like last month and usaly stick with 4 main pokes the other two vaire. I haven't needed to try Aegislash and Wasn't interested in it until now. So yeah sorry :'(

Nono, it's alright to still not be what is considered good. It was more of a "have you enough knowledge of the meta to decide what impacts different mons have", as these discussions usually require a good thought and, well, proof to back up your claims. So, if anything, build up some experience first and then come back. These discussions will last throughout the entire gen anyways.

posting random gifs only wastes space and makes you look like a tool, that aside, I am just saying Galvantula should be in C because its niche is tiny.

I'm sorry :(
It's niche is tiny, it's niche is outclassed by a French painting dog, and it really doesn't fit in in the OU meta. Hell, Sticky Web on it's own is pretty niche and gimmicky at this point.

 

[TROP]

If i read it correctly the suspects come from S, so there is a huge difference.

S doesn't mean it must be suspect/is a suspect. Random example: Slowking was S for all the lifespan of the viability thread in RU and it was not even close to suspect worthy. But druddigon is ban worthy molk pls fix.

 

[Hallucination]

the bold statement just means you should never ever ever ever ever post in this thread. also, let me also say that you can outslow hippo with aegislash..

In fact, the best Aegislash sets (Autotomize, WP, Mix LO, CB) do not run King's Shield at all. A lot of times, there is no room, or need, for King's Shield.

?

Also, Im pretty sure I called Hippo a check, so why does he need to switch in again? I mean, even if you do switch him in and take a shadow ball, he doesnt die and you can switch him out into something else that can. If you keep Hippowdon in on a second Shadow Ball then it dying is on you.

Also, why do you need to even switch a hippowdon in on a shadow ball? Why cant you switch him in on a shadow sneak your Gengar was about to take?

 

[Flamebot]

If each match is really taking half an hour you shouldn't play PS! at all really. Playing and on Wi-Fi here on Smogon or on Battle Spot are good for experience too. Also even on PS! 1800 is really easy to reach, ~15-20 wins is usually enough, depending on how much you lose.

Of course breeding a 6 IV Honedge is really really cumbersome, but it's easier than, say, Timid HP Ice Rotom. You could always try to trade for one too. PS! is mostly convenient to test mons and teams, to see what's good, to see what's not, to fit mons together, and so on. The ladder is just a quick measure of how good a player is.

I've won atleat 40 matchs. Just each match gives me like +4 and I've lost here and there(Phones died a couple of matchs to lol). Battle spot only allows 3 pokemon tho, and doesnt have as many bans. I don't own a computer so im not sure if I can play on here ethier. Honestly, unless I get a computer or some amazing trades on Pokemon Y, I'm not gonna ladder fast at all. So I guess it's back to lurking and the like 5 match aday before my phone dies...

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Well sorry If im not in the fucking 1800+Range like the rest of you. I dont even have a fucking computer to play it on. I have to use my phone so each match is like a half an hour. I started playing competitive like last month and usaly stick with 4 main pokes the other two vaire. I haven't needed to try Aegislash and Wasn't interested in it until now. So yeah sorry :'(

I'm not going to lie...I haven't been 1800+ since Gen V, but that's likely because I only play when I have a little spare time. I test battle with my younger brother, who has also had experience with being on the top before (he somehow reaches Top 50 in 1v1 and never tells me until later). Mixed experiences are in this thread, but one thing is for sure: If you're going to talk about a Pokemon, actually test it out for yourself. Understand the meta like the back of your hand and know the different possibilities. Grow with Pokemon competitively. This community welcomes people with open arms so long as they know what they're talking about.

If each match is really taking half an hour you shouldn't play PS! at all really. Playing and on Wi-Fi here on Smogon or on Battle Spot are good for experience too. Also even on PS! 1800 is really easy to reach, ~15-20 wins is usually enough, depending on how much you lose.

Of course breeding a 6 IV Honedge is really really cumbersome, but it's easier than, say, Timid HP Ice Rotom. You could always try to trade for one too. PS! is mostly convenient to test mons and teams, to see what's good, to see what's not, to fit mons together, and so on. The ladder is just a quick measure of how good a player is.

This also works too for advice. Testing on Simulators has always been easier than getting that perfect IV spread...

 

[Ropeburn]

For starters you know something is wrong with your calcs when 100 attack Lando-T does more then 252+ Attack Lando-T

If it uses Shadow Sneak it will be in Blade form, and Hippowdon is slower then a negative nature aegislash.

Also, I did my calcs on Landorus and the ground types with a Specs, so it will be locked in and too slow to clean up. If its not Speced, plenty will be able to come in.

4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 414-488 (127.7 - 150.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 251-296 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 51-60 (13.3 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Thats with the benefit of the doubt of maxed attack, Sp.A and Life Orb ^^^ Zygrade will be able to tank both, not going to bother calcing.

The ones I brought up were just to show how weak its Shadow Sneak was, allowing it to be easily revenged killed.

252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Good enough to finish off a weakened one. Especially if it is a Weakness Policy one, because then you know it will be weakened.

So, I believe Aegislash should go down from a S to an A+

The damage calc was a mixup on my end. That 252+ lando-t is Zygarde, since it wasn't on a current damage calculator and I had to do it manual. I still don't see why you think Aegislash should move down. You've given little evidence to support it other than a weak argument about the blade form, which is really a non-factor when King's Shield switches you over. Also, Aegislash is ordinarily carrying 0 speed ivs, which makes it slower than Hippowdon. I still don't know why you insist on bringing up Lando-T, who has no reliable recovery outside of Leftovers. If you're seriously saying that Landorus-T needs to be at full HP to take a Shadow ball, you're proving why Aegislash is S material.

If i read it correctly the suspects come from S, so there is a huge difference.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

In bold. Do you seriously not see how Aegislash could be S ? Nobody's trying to get Aegislash Banned. Hell, Kyurem-B was like A or B last gen, and people were trying to get that suspect tested. It fills the criteria, therefore it is S.

 

[Josh Morales]

?

Also, Im pretty sure I called Hippo a check, so why does he need to switch in again? I mean, even if you do switch him in and take a shadow ball, he doesnt die and you can switch him out into something else that can. If you keep Hippowdon in on a second Shadow Ball then it dying is on you.

The you can switch out... but you just gave a pokemon with 150 base SpA ANOTHER free hit on your team AND you Hippo just took so much damage that it's now useless for the rest of the game. It's not complicated

Also, why do you need to even switch a hippowdon in on a shadow ball? Why cant you switch him in on a shadow sneak your Gengar was about to take?

Because a half decent player wouldn't always do the horribly obvious.

 

[TROP]

?
Also, why do you need to even switch a hippowdon in on a shadow ball? Why cant you switch him in on a shadow sneak your Gengar was about to take?

Prediction is terrible for any argument because it can go both sides. What if I predict that and click shadow ball anyway? Now the Hippo is dead and the Aegislash is able to get 2 kills.

 

[King]

trop ninja'd that point with mikey as well as josh morales and Ropeburn with the save once again.

 

[Flamebot]

I'm not going to lie...I haven't been 1800+ since Gen V, but that's likely because I only play when I have a little spare time. I test battle with my younger brother, who has also had experience with being on the top before (he somehow reaches Top 50 in 1v1 and never tells me until later). Mixed experiences are in this thread, but one thing is for sure: If you're going to talk about a Pokemon, actually test it out for yourself. Understand the meta like the back of your hand and know the different possibilities. Grow with Pokemon competitively. This community welcomes people with open arms so long as they know what they're talking about.



This also works too for advice. Testing on Simulators has always been easier than getting that perfect IV spread...

So the community doesn't really welcome new comers. That's fine. I used to just lurk, but since I can't ask a damn Question without someone being an ass, how am I supposed to learn?

 

[KztxL7]

It essentially a Reuniclus or Sigilyph with worse typing a better stats.

I fail to see how Fairy typing is worse than Psychic typing when it has resistances to Dark, Bug and Fighting and an Immunity to Dragon.

 

[AOPSUser]

So the community doesn't really welcome new comers. That's fine. I used to just lurk, but since I can't ask a damn Question without someone being an ass, how am I supposed to learn?

You can ask in the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread. Until them, lurk and keep testing. No one was good at OU the moment they started battling, but after a few weeks you can start to get the hang of things.

Also Psychic is a really shitty typing, offensively and defensively. There's a reason Latios isn't dominating the meta.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

So the community doesn't really welcome new comers. That's fine. I used to just lurk, but since I can't ask a damn Question without someone being an ass, how am I supposed to learn?

Mentorship, perhaps? Newcomers with knowledge were usually welcomed, so it's not like it's every newcomer that gets raged at. Now...I'm sure this thread is almost derailing, so I might as well post something to keep the topic on the rankings.

Chansey in A? Once again, I'm unsure as to how I should react. Cleric+Wish Passing is nice, but...isn't her best job also being a Special Tank on top of that? Physically, she's not...horrible, but still Conkeldurr bait.

 

[AOPSUser]

Chansey in A? Once again, I'm unsure as to how I should react. Cleric+Wish Passing is nice, but...isn't her best job also being a Special Tank on top of that? Physically, she's not...horrible, but still Conkeldurr bait.

The problem with Chansey is that she is huge setup bait and Taunt bait, as well as Trick and Switcheroo, which are less common but still problems. Chansey is the best Special wall (not tank, tanks can actually hit back) bar none, but she gives away too many free turns to opponents to be considered A. This isn't RBY anymore.

 

[Ajwf]

Also Psychic is a really shitty typing, offensively and defensively. There's a reason Latios isn't dominating the meta.

He isn't? :/ Apparently, my issues with seeing him every other game is removed? Though admittedly, all psychic does for dragon is add more weaknesses. Psychic/Dragon is just really good offensively and dragon by itself has a really nice defensive niche.

ShadowMarioGalaxy64, I could see Chansey in A or A-... It does have a more pronounced flaw this generation to knock off users (and any other item abusers), but it still does it's job incredibly well. Takes somewhere in the range of 60% from +6 LO manaphy, I faced one today and just easily toxic stalled it. It walls and supports well and even with the new fairies, I haven't found reason to use one over Chansey on a stall team. Realistically, there is no better cleric in the game.

 

[AOPSUser]

He isn't? :/ Apparently, my issues with seeing him every other game is removed? Though admittedly, all psychic does for dragon is add more weaknesses. Psychic/Dragon is just really good offensively and dragon by itself has a really nice defensive niche.

I'm not really seeing him at all, but that's not the point. Psychic-typing adds a Tyranitar weakness, which is really, really bad, as well as a Scizor weakness, which is even worse. Latios can use Psyshock well but it's not like that's hitting anything other than the blobs.

 

[Josh Morales]

Chansey - B

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Chansey is quite obviously a great pokemon when you take a look at its stats. Its niche is quite clear, taking special hits like none other but its flaws are quite clear and are spelled out in the definition of a B rank. Its flaw that prevents it from functioning is, of course, its physical bulk and that is a huge reason why it belongs as a B rank i.e. it is easy set up bait for any physical sweeper. Maybe a B+, though, because it does do its job so well.

 

[BROloom]

I fail to see how Fairy typing is worse than Psychic typing when it has resistances to Dark, Bug and Fighting and an Immunity to Dragon.

I meant better typing and worse stats, my bad :)

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Starmie for A

With Rotom-W everywhere right now, Starmie has kinda gotten the cold shoulder with everyone switching to Excadrill as their spinner of choice. However, the things that made Starmie the best spinner last gen are definitely still relevant: its great coverage and speed. While there's been quite a bit of speed creep, 115 is still a very good speed tier to hit, and surf/thunderbolt/ice beam is just as effective as it's always been. Because of these qualities, Starmie is almost never dead weight on an offensive team, and can spin very reliably with its offensive pressure.

 

[SansNickel]

The problem with Chansey is that she is huge setup bait and Taunt bait, as well as Trick and Switcheroo, which are less common but still problems. Chansey is the best Special wall (not tank, tanks can actually hit back) bar none, but she gives away too many free turns to opponents to be considered A. This isn't RBY anymore.

She might give away free turns, but so do most defensive pokemon (at least to something). Also, almost all defensive pokemon are huge taunt / trick bait. So really, these flaws are attributed to all defensive pokemon. Chansey is the best at what it does, which is why it is A rank (though I think it should be A- / B+). If you take a look, most defensive (not tank-ish, but truly support/defensive) pokemon in B+ rank or higher aren't actually used that much. So perhaps the ranking is a bit more lenient on defensive pokemon, otherwise they'd all be B or lower.

 

[AOPSUser]

She might give away free turns, but so do most defensive pokemon (at least to something). Also, almost all defensive pokemon are huge taunt / trick bait. So really, these flaws are attributed to all defensive pokemon. Chansey is the best at what it does, which is why it is A rank (though I think it should be A- / B+). If you take a look, most defensive (not tank-ish, but truly support/defensive) pokemon in B+ rank or higher aren't actually used that much. So perhaps the ranking is a bit more lenient on defensive pokemon, otherwise they'd all be B or lower.

Chansey gives away a lot more free turns because it's only forms of damage are Seismic Toss and Toxic. Other special sponges, such as Sylveon, Latias, and Jellicent can actually do damage, although they don't take hits as well as Chansey, but generally they can handle enough. Chansey is easily forced out by anything that threatens to set up, especially if they have 404 or more HP and have Substitute. Chansey is the best special sponge there is, but the opportunity cost of using it really has to be taken into account. To put it in perspective, last gen Chansey and Blissey were B- rank.

 

[SansNickel]

Chansey gives away a lot more free turns because it's only forms of damage are Seismic Toss and Toxic. Other special sponges, such as Sylveon, Latias, and Jellicent can actually do damage, although they don't take hits as well as Chansey, but generally they can handle enough. Chansey is easily forced out by anything that threatens to set up, especially if they have 404 or more HP and have Substitute. Chansey is the best special sponge there is, but the opportunity cost of using it really has to be taken into account. To put it in perspective, last gen Chansey and Blissey were B- rank.

I think what makes them better this gen is that the fairy types mean that there are less fighting types and outrage-spamming dragons. Will-o-wisp is now also everywhere. The special move nerf and nerf to weather means that fewer special attackers are able to overpower the blobs.

I think latias is a good counterexample you made, as dragon pulse can usually do over 25%. Jellicent's scald however is extremely weak and is likely not breaking any substitutes. However, both of those don't act as clerics (I'm not sure if latias gets stuff like that idr).
Those 3 mons you mentioned are likely only running one attack if they are in a support role, and so anything that resists those moves can set up a sub quite easily, just like how anything with 404+ HP can set up a sub on chansey (I'm actually not sure which one is more often).

I would like to say, however, that chansey does much better against CM or QD users, as it can take hits even when other things are at +4, and seismic toss's damage isn't lowered. It also allows it toxic stall much better.

And so the question is, does the ability to not be overpowered by almost all special attackers make up for the fact that it can only deal damage with toxic/seismic toss?

 

[Hallucination]

Prediction is terrible for any argument because it can go both sides. What if I predict that and click shadow ball anyway? Now the Hippo is dead and the Aegislash is able to get 2 kills.

I knew once I said that someone would try and counter predict, the point was that there are other ways to get Hippo in than on a shadow ball.

 

[Punchshroom]

She's too slow with no priority and goes down to pretty much any physical attack and is outclassed by a lot of special sweepers you don't have to waste a mega slot for. I would put her at a B-.

Again I'd disagree with e too slow and mega waste part. She's faster than most with 100 speed and a lot of special bulk and enough defensive bulk to take two hits with no EVs there. Not to mention Pixilate STAB Calm Mind Hyper Voice tears through pokemon, with 6 more SpA points than MCharizard Y just on base.

For the record, MegaVoir only speedties with most base 100s, such as Volcarona, Charizard, Mega-Medicham, Salamence, etc. Charizard-Y also hits harder with Sun-boosted Fire Blast and has much stronger coverage moves than MegVoir for their respective targets.

68 HP / 65 Def with a base 100 Speed that cannot be altered is actually really bad, and a souped-up Hyper Voice isn't going to fix much of these problems. The fact of the matter is that Pokemon with that kind of base Speed either has a way to boost their speed, have priority, have at least acceptable bulk on both ends, or can wield a Scarf; MegaVoir has none of these. Its special bulk is undermined by the fact that almost any physical attacker can 2HKO it at worst. MegaVoir may be very powerful, but power alone isn't going to cut it: why do you think, say, Haxorus didn't see as much usage as it would have in Gen 5?

The reason I brought up Gardevoir is because I think it actually has more of a place in the metagame than MegaVoir does, primarily its Scarf set. With a Scarf, Gardevoir can now outspeed both Thundurus, both Tornadus, Garchomp, Mega-Pinsir, the musketeers, Lati@s, Gengar, Mega-Lucario (Bullet Punch ends you, but Vacuum Wave variants are swiftly revenged), Alakazam, Noivern, and Greninja with just a Modest nature, to hit them all with a Moonblast (or a Psychic / Ghost move in Gengar's case). As you can see, that's a lot of threats it can cover with just one attack, and it can make use of Trace to alter certain matchups (Heatran anyone?) Of course, its pathetic Defense does still get in the way, what with priority being everywhere, so I'd probably just put Gardevoir in B- Rank.

 

[Ropeburn]

I knew once I said that someone would try and counter predict, the point was that there are other ways to get Hippo in than on a shadow ball.

Oh god , I'd love to see your "other ways" of getting Hippo in on a shadow ball other than a ridiculous stream of switches....which if either of these switches is predicted, you either lose one of your pokemon or take a substantial amount. Aegislash only gives free switches on the King's Shield, and even then, it's got 150 defenses. Also, what's Hippo going to do if your opponent switches out to something to start setting up Hazards, Toxics you, Taunts, etc.

The point is, Aegislash forces YOU to make the predictions. With King's Shield, it doesn't have much to fear. Your opponent loses nothing by playing it safe, because even if you predict that, they've got a number of attacks that would cripple you, as well as 5 other pokemon to deal with you. I think you're really underestimating just how much Shadow Ball does. It 2HKOs just about anything, and walls can be worn down, even if they have recovery. Aegislash is the epitome of mind games. It's the Russian Roulette of pokemon, essentially.