Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[AOPSUser]

SwagPlay is not Klefki's best set. Klefki's most consistent use is Dual Screens+Thunder Wave, and using Foul Play against Aegislash. SwagPlay is inconsistent as hell. It's usable, but most people tend to use Klefki as a pure supporter.

The Dual Screens set works so well Klefki should be B+ or A, leaning towards A.

 

[Jukain]

With paralysis and confusion, you have a 37.5% chance of breaking through both of them. If you're using a heavy hitter, the hit to self from confusion can do a lot of damage. Switching in and out may result in having a portion of your team getting paralyzed. The Klefki user can stall for time by using substitute until you hit yourself/get fully paralyzed. And then use Foul Play, which gets juiced up from Swagger. If you break through the para-fusion, you'll be left with a pokemon at +2, but the odds are not in your favor.

You're limited to beating out because most special attackers don't take very much at all from confusion/Foul Play. You're also relying on hax. Do you want a 62.5% chance to lose Klefki, and possibly the battle if the attacker is strong enough? I don't think you do. SwagPlay is an annoying, but unreliable, strategy.

Klefki doesn't have good bulk, you just need a neutral attack to 2HKO it.

AOPSUser hit it on the spot in terms of what SwagPlay is.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

My biggest problem with SwagPlay is that it's a inconsistent set. Ground Types screw with Klefki because it can't T-Wave, Ghosts screw with Swagger, also the fact that Electrics can't be paralyzed just makes me concerned. Maybe it's because my luck is all over the place, but I'd rather go with the Dual Screen set, as it's more consistent, and relying on hax is just bleh. If a Ground Type comes in and screws over T Wave and they dont hit through Swagger, I lost Klefki and put myself at a disadvantage if I swaggered something thats threatening. Inconsistency is always a big no-no in my book, I like having consistency in my sets.

 

[Josh Morales]

You're limited to beating out because most special attackers don't take very much at all from confusion/Foul Play. You're also relying on hax. Do you want a 62.5% chance to lose Klefki, and possibly the battle if the attacker is strong enough? I don't think you do. SwagPlay is an annoying, but unreliable, strategy.

Klefki doesn't have good bulk, you just need a neutral attack to 2HKO it.

AOPSUser hit it on the spot in terms of what SwagPlay is.

In my experience it is in no way a 37.5 chance to lose Klefki because after you're already SwagTWave up he can spam priority substitute which means if you do bypass that 62.5% to not attack then you don't lose Klefki as you suggest, his Substitute basically gives him 3 more lives as you slowly get worn down by SwagPlay, if you're a special attacker because physical attackers get 2 shot by SwagPlay.

 

[Josh Morales]

My biggest problem with SwagPlay is that it's a inconsistent set. Ground Types screw with Klefki because it can't T-Wave, Ghosts screw with Swagger, also the fact that Electrics can't be paralyzed just makes me concerned. Maybe it's because my luck is all over the place, but I'd rather go with the Dual Screen set, as it's more consistent, and relying on hax is just bleh. If a Ground Type comes in and screws over T Wave and they dont hit through Swagger, I lost Klefki and put myself at a disadvantage if I swaggered something thats threatening. Inconsistency is always a big no-no in my book, I like having consistency in my sets.

You do have a big point on sets being consistent but the thing is, the odds are in your favor for it to be consistent. I know the use of "odds" and "consistent" in the same sentence sounds silly but in practice that's how it works out. The main problem I have with the set is that it's just so uncompetitive because you rely on hax and you can either 6-0 teams with it or be a wasted teammate and the outcome of this is controlled by luck and I think that kind of game-changing luck is a place for Yahtzee and not competitive battling.

(sorry for double posting)

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You don't use Nasty Plot because you need Solar Beam to function against Water-, Ground-, and Rock-types and you don't use Ninetales because Ninetales and Houndoom have aweful synergy other than Houndoom's ability, but it's not really worth it, so you use Sunny Day as your setup move.

As I showed with calcs you accomplish the same with Nasty Plot, so no you don't need Solarbeam >.> Except, you don't lose 10% of your health every turn (including the turn you use Sunny Day ._. ). Houndoom is already vulnerable to all kinds of passive damage, the last thing it needs is Solar Power imo. Rotom-W is handled by +2 Dark Pulse after SR, T-tar dies to +2 HP Fighting, Landorus-T/Excadrill/Hippowdon die to +2 Fire Blast, and Gastrodon and Keldeo are not nearly common enough to justify using Sunny Day. I think you're much better of using Nasty Plot.

 

[Bologo]

o crawdaunt isn't here

Nominating Crawdaunt for C+/B- Tier. Crawdaunt went from only usable with Tailwind Tornadus to a legit threat this gen with Aqua Jet + Adaptability and the Knock Off buff. All said, Crawdaunt is a total monster in terms of power. A simple CB set with Aqua Jet / Crab Hammer / Knock Off / filler totally crushes so many things to pieces. Priority is so prevalent and important in this metagame, and Crawdaunt's stands out as among the strongest. Knock Off is an absolutely excellent move, giving it a huge source of power. Crawdaunt is slow (though this is made up for by its priority somewhat) and pretty frail with some common weaknesses, but those don't stop it from punching massive holes in teams if played correctly. I lean toward C+ Tier in this nomination, but a case could be made for B- Tier. There's not really a whole lot else to say; Crawdaunt is powerful as all hell but has very significant shortcomings.

I absolutely agree with this. I don't actually use CB Crawdaunt, I just use a simple Life Orb set with Knock Off/Aqua Jet/Crabhammer/Swords Dance, and it rips holes in teams. I don't actually use Swords Dance for sweeping, it's pretty much just there to mess with Aegislash, because it seems to always like using King's Shield on Crawdaunt, and gets owned horribly when I use Swords Dance on the King's Shield. If Aegislash tries using King's Shield on Crawdaunt and mispredicts, it could end up getting its whole team counterswept.

This is just a short replay to show how well Crawdaunt can take advantage of Aegislash if you can scout it switching in: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-73371220

Another thing I really like about Crawdaunt is that it can actually OHKO Deoxys-D and bring Deoxys-S down to the sash for the Aqua Jet finish. That means they can only get one layer of hazards up max if both Crawdaunt and Deoxys-(D/S) lead. Yes, the Deoxys can just switch, but therein lies the dilemma when one faces Crawdaunt. If you switch, and you don't have a really bulky Dark resist, your switch-in is not only going to take a massive wallop from a LO-boosted Knock Off, but you're also gonna lose your item. And chances are, you'll be knocked into a good enough range for Aqua Jet to kill you off.

I admittedly had my doubts about using Crawdaunt at first, but after seeing just how hard he hits firsthand, I'm sold. Knock Off is just so deadly, and the only things that can switch in safely are really bulky mega-stone pokemon, because they won't get their item removed.

Admittedly, Crawdaunt is difficult to switch in directly, but having it come in on a revenge-kill or a wall can often cost the opponent a pokemon. At the very least, he has Aqua Jet to take out weakened faster pokemon, so he's not a sitting duck against any faster pokemon.

I agree with the C+/B- tier for Crawdaunt.

 

[TrippingRocks]

You're limited to beating out because most special attackers don't take very much at all from confusion/Foul Play. You're also relying on hax. Do you want a 62.5% chance to lose Klefki, and possibly the battle if the attacker is strong enough? I don't think you do. SwagPlay is an annoying, but unreliable, strategy.

Klefki doesn't have good bulk, you just need a neutral attack to 2HKO it.

AOPSUser hit it on the spot in terms of what SwagPlay is.

Special attackers can do a number on themselves if they're not physically bulky and at +2. Also, the confusion does more than just hurt themselves, it grants the enemy a free turn. Also, while you do have a 37.5% chance of breaking through confusion and paralysis, the SwagPlay set also contains substitute, sponging a hit for Klefki. You have to break through confusion and paralysis MULTIPLE times, not just once. If your physical attackers get through the confusion and paralysis and manages to KO klefki, it's not game over. A paralyzed +2 pokemon isn't going to sweep through much unless he also packs priority.

The swagplay set is indeed inconsistent in KOing pokemon. Sometimes you can get super lucky and always hit through the parafusion. Sometimes you can get super unlucky and always end up hitting yourself. Despite it's inconsistency in KOing pokemon, it's a super reliable way to disrupting the enemy team. A priority thunder wave means something is going to get paralyzed unless you have a ground or electric type pokemon. When I used Klefki, I preferred using the specially defensive variant of it, because you would ideally want to use it against a special attacker. That way, they don't benefit at all from swagger and your foul play still hits reasonably hard (unless you're dealing with a physical wall). Even if you can't KO something with Klefki, if you force them to switch, you can paralyze something else.

Klefki is by no means super-bulky, but it has a good typing and a good amount of defensive stats. It can definitely take a hit or two. The SwagPlay set is annoying and unreliable, but if you bring the Klefki in on a wall or even a special attacker (and assuming that ground and electric pokemon have already been dealt with), you're guaranteed to set up your annoying parafusion plan.

He also has his dual screen set, which is by far THE most reliable way to set up screens. Thanks to prankster, almost nothing can stop Klefki from getting those screens up.

 

[branflakes]

Um...
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 129-153 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 190-225 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 270-320 (92.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 206-243 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 390-462 (133.5 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 306-360 (104.7 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 206-243 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 426-504 (145.8 - 172.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 402-474 (137.6 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We can play calcs all day, but no recovery and weakness to SR on top of needing to pull off a Nasty Plot to try to kill most things that aren't steel+grass/bug types which most weaker fire attacks kill anyway just doesn't help MHoundoom. However, having access to nice moves like Destiny Bond and Sludge Bomb are nice. I'd give him a solid B, maybe B+ since MAlakazam is in B, and that's just a horrible mega compared to his superior prior form that has access to items.

Also why isn't Klefki in A yet? The T-wave+Swagplay is broken. At least B+.

May I ask, why are we fireblasting tyranitars in the sand? These calcs prove nothing besides the fact that bulky pokemon can survive strong hits, most of which are resisted in your calcs anyway. Seriously can any neutral special attack even 2HKO AV Goodra in the first place?

 

[TrippingRocks]

May I ask, why are we fireblasting tyranitars in the sand?

We need dat 10% burn.

 

[Swampertz]

ginganinja We talked a few pages back about adding Mega Gardevoir to B Rank?

 

[Josh Morales]

ginganinja We talked a few pages back about adding Mega Gardevoir to B Rank?

A lot of people have also agreed on Mega Manectric being a B rank.

 

[Josh Morales]

As I showed with calcs you accomplish the same with Nasty Plot, so no you don't need Solarbeam >.> Except, you don't lose 10% of your health every turn (including the turn you use Sunny Day ._. ). Houndoom is already vulnerable to all kinds of passive damage, the last thing it needs is Solar Power imo. Rotom-W is handled by +2 Dark Pulse after SR, T-tar dies to +2 HP Fighting, Landorus-T/Excadrill/Hippowdon die to +2 Fire Blast, and Gastrodon and Keldeo are not nearly common enough to justify using Sunny Day. I think you're much better of using Nasty Plot.

Keldeo not common... wut. One thing is that you do accomplish the same thing with Sunny Day and NP coverage wise, but you also get a more powerful Fire Blast with Sunny Day.

 

[Jaroda]

Klefki: B+ - Great defensive typing and the only mon with access to priority Spikes and Dual Screens means Klefki has little trouble switching in to numerous moves and its priority means it never dies without providing benefit to your team as a whole, like with Thunder Wave. I think its B+ as opposed to A like Mandibuzz is because it doesn't get STAB Foul Play and has trouble dealing damage at all, but it is a great support pokemon and the epitome of what I'd call a "monkey wrench" pokemon,

Sableye: B - Similarly to Kefki Sableye is a premiere annoyer with beneficial typing allowing for a few safe switch ins and some of the biggest tools to thwart heavy offense OR stall in priority Will-O-Wisp and Taunt. It also gets STAB Knock Off furthering its annoyance niche and even Recover to stick around a bit longer. It can cripple numerous would be threats and was one of the few options you had against Mega Khanga. Even with Recover though it lacks many resistances and can be overwhelmed by strong special attacks.

Entei: C+ - Entei's new toy in Sacred Fire has made Entei one of the most difficult pokemon to switch into, needing to tank a STAB 100 Fire attack on top of not minding the huge 50% chance to burn. Entei puts pressure on the opponent like few others can, and Extremespeed helps it clean up ad nab revenge kills. Without access to Flash Fire though and a weakness to Stealth Rock he requires good support to function efficiently, as he can be worn down relatively quickly. Entei's stats make it so it is just barely not strong or fast enough to outright kill most things it needs to, he's hard to EV efficiently. His weaknesses hold him back from more common usage but he can really shine on the right team.

Tornadus-T: B- - Regenerator and a great speed stat make this one really annoying scout with access to U-Turn and Knock Off and works well with Assault Vest. Also has a good SpA to do damage, but with the weather nerf has to rely on really inaccurate moves like Hurricane and Focus Blast. Stealth Rock and lack of good resistances outside of Ground and Fighting make switching in harder than it could be, to the point where Tornadus really needs certain team mates to be the most helpful.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Keldeo not common... wut. One thing is that you do accomplish the same thing with Sunny Day and NP coverage wise, but you also get a more powerful Fire Blast with Sunny Day.

Uhm, +2 Fire Blast hits nearly as hard as Sun+Solar Power Fire Blast regardless. Oh, and lets not forget your other moves are also boosted by +2, rather than +1. Oh, and did I mention you don't take recoil damage?

 

[Josh Morales]

Uhm, +2 Fire Blast hits nearly as hard as Sun+Solar Power Fire Blast regardless. Oh, and lets not forget your other moves are also boosted by +2, rather than +1. Oh, and did I mention you don't take recoil damage?

The coverage moves are only +1 but as we already proved the Fire/Grass coverage from Solar Beam accomplishes the same thing, if not more, than using the NP set and has twice the BP of HP Fighting and a significantly higher BP than any other coverage move you suggest and the recoil is neglegible if you're about to sweep their team. Yes, choice scarfers do prevent you from sweeping but then why the hell did you even try to sweep when said Scarfer is still around? MegaDoom's main problem is no priority and that's why Mega Mawile and Mega Lucario are A and S ranks, respectively, and Mega Alakazam and Mega Heracross are B ranks. That's why I think MegaDoom is at most a B

 

[Swamp Link]

Having used Manectric recently, that thing is a lot better than it seems. Intimidate + Volt Switch creates momentum up the yin-yang, it's fast and cleans up late game, it has reasonable bulk and power, and it offers a lot of utility to the rest of your team with intimidate. I think it fits the definition of B-Rank really well.

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Nominating Mega Manectric for B-Rank.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The coverage moves are only +1 but as we already proved the Fire/Grass coverage from Solar Beam accomplishes the same thing, if not more, than using the NP set and has twice the BP of HP Fighting and a significantly higher BP than any other coverage more you suggest and the recoil is neglegible if you're about to sweep their team.

Let's say you Sunny Day as they go to T-tar. You Solarbeam as they go to Talonflame. T-tar comes back in, and you can do nothing with your Sunny Day. The Nasty Plot set can take out T-tar regardless with HP Fighting. Also, if you have Sunny Day it's kinda obvious you're gonna pack Solarbeam, so plays like these (a lot of pokes resist Grass) are not too hard to make. Raw base power means nothing if you can't make it true in practice, especially when you're missing out on a +1 boost from Nasty Plot.

Also, if they do the same thing, might as well pick the one that doesn't make you take recoil and is overall much more reliable and not weather reliant.

 

[Josh Morales]

Let's say you Sunny Day as they go to T-tar. You Solarbeam as they go to Talonflame. T-tar comes back in, and you can do nothing with your Sunny Day. The Nasty Plot set can take out T-tar regardless with HP Fighting. Also, if you have Sunny Day it's kinda obvious you're gonna pack Solarbeam, so plays like these (a lot of pokes resist Grass) are not too hard to make. Raw base power means nothing if you can't make it true in practice, especially when you're missing out on a +1 boost from Nasty Plot.

Also, if they do the same thing, might as well pick the one that doesn't make you take recoil and is overall much more reliable and not weather reliant.

Your one example of when it's sub optimal to run Sunny Day is extremely specific and situational because it applies to two pokemon, which aren't even that common.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Your one example of when it's sub optimal to run Sunny Day is extremely specific and situational because it applies to two pokemon, which aren't even that common.

It's a general example.

 

[Josh Morales]

It's a general example.

Okay, name another example where that applies. Politoed? Lol, what's the usage statistics on that thing and it normally dies off early-mid game anyways.

 

[Spiegelmann]

Why is this shitty houndoom business even a debate? If sunny day gets screwed over one time out of ten while nasty plot doesnt while they both have near identical damage/ coverage why the hell would you choose to run the sunny day set? If you want your shitty solar power gimmick run heat rock Ninetales.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Okay, name another example where that applies. Politoed? Lol, what's the usage statistics on that thing and it normally dies off early-mid game anyways.

Any combination of Tyranitar + Grass resist works. I'd consider Tyranitar a common poke, and every team runs a Grass-resist (right?). Again, Nasty Plot Houndoom comes out on top with HP Fighting, doesn't take recoil damage, has more powerful coverage aside from Fire Blast and so on.

 

[Josh Morales]

Why is this shitty houndoom business even a debate? If sunny day gets screwed over one time out of ten while nasty plot doesnt while they both have near identical damage/ coverage why the hell would you choose to run the sunny day set? If you want your shitty solar power gimmick run heat rock Ninetales

I think that the Sunny Day set is a tad bit better because 3 uncommon pokemon do not speak for the entire meta, but you do have a really good point. We should be arguing about the OU viability ranking and not viable sets.

(For the record Sunny Day is recommended in the OU analysis for Houndoom)

 

[Spiegelmann]

I think that the Sunny Day set is a tad bit better because 3 uncommon pokemon do not speak for the entire meta, but you do have a really good point. We should be arguing about the OU viability ranking and not viable sets.

(For the record Sunny Day is recommended in the OU analysis for Houndoom)

If tyranitar isn't common I don't know what game I've been playing for the past 5 years. Talonflame is pretty common. Any grass resist is.

That said I think M-houndoom's good speed and insanely strong attacks with decent coverage before and after nasty plot merit a B to B- rank (B- because of its huge vulnerability to hazards)