Idk I don't see too many T-Tar but maybe I'm unlucky. The point is we should decide a good ranking for Houndoom rather than argue over viable sets for it because that's what the analysis is for.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
- Status
Idk I don't see too many T-Tar but maybe I'm unlucky. The point is we should decide a good ranking for Houndoom rather than argue over viable sets for it because that's what the analysis is for.
Nominating Breloom for B. Spore is always crazy good, and Technician allows it to take advantage of the weaker moves in learns and really screw up some pokemon. The one problem, as with Chessnaught, is Talonflame. Quad weakness, as always, is a problem. So B seems appropriate.
It doesn't matter if you see it or not, the usage stats are there for a reason.
Grass is the most resisted type in the game so SunnyBeam isn't really worth running when it gets NP.
I still think it's C rank material because of its flaws: weak to common priority, vulnerable to hazards, mediocre bulk and frankly it's not the best mega around so it's hard to justify it over the others.
Mega Houndoom actually has acceptable bulk. Base 75/90/90 is nothing to simply ignore. Priority weakness is an issue indeed, but hazards can be applied to any poke so I wouldn't consider that an argument (look Talonflame/MegaZard Y) It also has a niche over other Mega's thanks to its excellent speed, STAB coverage and access to Nasty Plot.
I'd say B+ personally.
I just used the base moves/calcs from smogons own calculator honestly :p Fire blast/Dark Pulse/flamethrower were the only moves, and fire blast did the most. I did not factor in Hidden Power fighting however, and that can only kill adamant T-tar at +2, but the assault vest one actually has a 50/50 chance to live.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 368-436 (91 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
However the rest aren't meaningless, your getting walled or straight up out speed by scarfers and KO'd and have little way of stopping that if your running NP or SD set with fire attack/dark pulse/HP fighting/solarbeam. Even if nothing boosted can OHKO a goodra, it forces you, your +2 Houndoom, to switch out, or get wrecked by Surf, thus losing your boosted special attack, and being prone to taking damage from SR or spikes if any. Though, despite the back n forth hoopla about Houndoom, we all pretty much agree he fits in the B tier. Whether he belongs in B+, B, or B- is yet to be decided, but video proof, either wifi or showdown replays, would be nice to back up all these claims these people are suggesting.
Also, going by the current ranks, there's absolutely no way houndoom is in the same category as Diggersby/gourgheist small/etc. Rank C-D are joke tiers as of the current ranking list in the main OP.
It's a terrible strategy, but considering it leaves them with a 37.5% chance to move iirc it's really not that much worse than relying on focus blast. Klefki has enough bulk to take one or two hits, which is really all it needs. Klefki doesn't really give up free turns; it creates free turns. After it gets one free turn it now has a sub up, meaning you have a 14% chance to land two hits in a row, and at +2 or +4 you're probably dead after 2 foul plays.
What I think puts klefki pretty high up is its wide movepool. Priority screens means it can use the right screen accordingly to really lengthen its survival time. It can also be used as a back up thunder waver in case something has set up (kind of like sableye's priority burn). It also gets priority spikes, and even the gimmicky priority recycle (I've seen a guy use recycle red card with spikes, so nothing can set up and with Klefki's good typing chances are the attacker will be phazed into something that can't hurt Klefki as much).
It's a bad strategy that is frowned upon yes, but when everyone just says "please don't be swagkey please" you know something's up.
I want someone to successfully argue against this fact.
The same can be said about Togekiss and Jirachi. And Dunsparce for that matter. It's uncompetitive and luck-based, but the OU tier leaders don't deem it uncompetitive enough for a ban. It's not Moody or Double Team.
We should probably be ranking Klefki based on its Dual Screen set anyways, SwagPlay just doesn't work a lot of the time.
I could easily see Klefki in A rank. Theres absolutely nothing unreliable about swagplay klefki. A 37.5% chance to break free of it is further reduced when you realize that youre dealing with a mon that resists ice, bug, psychic, dark, grass, normal, rock, fairy, flying, is immune to dragon and poison, has decent bulk and always fully invests in it. Seriously this is NOT liepard, this is an actual and useful threat. Dismissing it as ''bad'' because its luck based is ridiculous. Klefki has all the odds on its side, its very hard to get rid of and can easily cripple an entire team with zero effort. There arent really any good switch ins honestly. Hell i wouldnt be surprised if swagplay becomes the standard set.
If you sweep with Klefki you either had the most amazing luck in the history of pokemon or your opponent is a moron. There are a lot of things that don't mind being paralyzed or confused. There is the existence of the lum berry which completely destroys that set, especially if it is used on a physical sweeper. It has a decent chance of defeating one mon but anything after that is lucky. It is far less dangerous than your average OU sweeper who should take out your whole team if your 2 or so checks are taken out.
Last edited:
Klefki has the odds on its side, but so does Jirachi. There are a lot of ways around SwagPlay. Lum Berry Garchomp turns Klefki into sweep bait. Gliscor DGAF about anything Klefki can do. Blobs still wall it. It can't damage Mandibuzz or Rotom-W at all either. When one of these factors is added in, Klefki suddenly needs a lot more luck to win, and even without them it's still risking every battle. Oh, and Swagger can miss too.
This. Klefki is a general supporter and disruptor. It just happens to have Prankster SwagPlay.
It's not that much luck. They have a 37.5% chance to even attack and if it ever does it breaks a substitute and then they have to break it 2+ more times. In the meanwhile they're taking a shit load of damage from +2 confusion and Foul Play.
You have to hope your opponent has no Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, Chansey, Blissey, Sableye, Tornadus-I (with Taunt), Thundurus-I (with Taunt), Lum Berry Garchomp, Magnezone, and probably a lot more, for SwagKey to actually break an entire team. If a team has one of those, chances are SwagKey won't be doing much that battle, and even if they don't, you still have to rely on them hitting themselves. Confusion is temporary, remember.
SwagKey is a viable set. However, it is very, very inconsistent. The Dual Screens set isn't as destructive but consistently provides team support.
Jirachi has nothing. Any electric type shuts it down, ground types shut it down if its a thunder wave variant, ghost types shut it down if its body slam, steel types shut it down no matter what, jirachi doesnt have prankster so it cant go first meaning you can revenge kill it. Seriously no, there inst even a comparison. Swag play klefki over para flinch users any day of the week. Tell me more about rotom-w, mandibuzz, rotom, gliscor, blobs or whatever the hell you want to mention being immune to swagger because last time i checked they werent. Youre forced to play by klefki's rules unless you have a electric immune+lum berry+capable of koing klefki mon (which is downright ridiculous specific). Its not unreliable because it can cripple teams with no effort by using the rng in its favor and then the opponent still needs to take on your 5 other team mates. Thats what makes disruptors good, they create free turns and open holes for its partners to finish things off and klefki happens to be the best of them because theres hardly any real switch in or counter play for it.
Rank C is not a joke tier. It's just where the stuff that's not really good, but has a niche/can succeed, goes. Just saying.AmShowdownNoob said:
Also, I just wanna say one last thing about SwagPlay Klefki: it's not getting a main set in the OU analysis. Also, it's for the exact same reason that SwagPlay Liepard was ignored by everyone in the NU suspect thread for it last gen as I'm arguing against Klefki getting moved up to A Rank because of the SwagPlay set; SwagPlay is not really that hard to handle, and is luck-based.
Klefki has nothing. Any electric type shuts it down, ground types shut it down if its a thunder wave variant.SmashBrosBrawl said:
Not to mention that Jirachi is an excellent Pokemon with tons of utility whilst paraflinching.
Again, AOPSUser hit it right on the spot with his post:
Rotom-W smacks Klefki around, is immune to Thunder Wave, doesn't take much damage from Foul Play even after a Swagger, and is one of the most used mons in OU.
Mandibuzz doesn't care about paralysis, resists Foul Play, and has such high bulk that Foul Play doesn't matter.
Chansey and Blissey are 6HKOed by Foul Play at +6. Chansey is 8-9HKOed at +6 (I think).
Gliscor doesn't care about Foul Play and is immune to Thunder Wave.
Unless you get really lucky (and I say REALLY lucky) against these mons, you are not winning. Chansey and Blissey can hit themselves ~80% of the time and still win. Gliscor just keeps EQing or Roosting until you run out of PP unless it hits itself every turn. Mandibuzz is not going down either, and Rotom-W, while a little less hax is required, requires you Swaggering several times while it keeps hitting itself, unless you want to take a Hydro Pump.
So...no effort? Maybe, against a team really unprepared. But even against teams without those mons, there are still ways around it (Skarmory, Magnezone, Lum Berry Garchomp, etc.)
Can't believe people are arguing ab SwagPlay, and for A rank! Jesus people get it tg. If were discussing Klefki, it should be the consistent Dual screens set, for maybe B rank, due to an awesome typing and priority screens.
Tell me how many electric and ground types are immune to swagger. Oh yeah, none of them. Thats why its called SWAGplay not Twaveplay. It seems people are actively choosing to ignoring the most crucial part of the strategy just to make a point. Send in your rotoms all you want, klefki is just going to use swagger+substitute+foul play ad infinitum while you struggle against the rng (which is in klefki's favor btw). Switch out and it starts all over again. As i said before this is not liepard, this is a pokemon that resists almost every type and is immune to two of them and has decent bulk. I dont honestly care whether or not its getting an analysis, swag klefki is an absolutely good strategy. The fact that the only argument agaisnt it revolves aroung twisting facts and constantly name things that will lose to it almost everytime only further supports this.
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 63-75 (8.9 - 10.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 105-124 (14.7 - 17.3%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 169-199 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 122-144 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 60-71 (14.1 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
I admit, I underestimated some of these mons quite a bit. But you really get the point, you're not immune to Swagger, but it doesn't really matter.
EDIT: Some others:
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 79-93 (20 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 122-144 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 73-87 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 193-228 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Why the 4 Atk EVs on Klefki? It's not using them.
IDK, it's the PS! calc's default and it doesn't matter either way.
Still nothing on Magnezone?
I think Magnezone fits this description well. It doesn't have the speed or priority to be an A - ranked offensive sweeper, but it chunks opponents, destroys steel and fairy types and can get free turns often enough (sub/ volt switch poking). Also has excellent synergy with a plethora of the OU tier.
Nominating Magnezone for B or B-.
I think Magnezone fits this description well. It doesn't have the speed or priority to be an A - ranked offensive sweeper, but it chunks opponents, destroys steel and fairy types and can get free turns often enough (sub/ volt switch poking). Also has excellent synergy with a plethora of the OU tier.
Nominating Magnezone for B or B-.
Everytime youre confused youre playing a 50% gamble on hitting yourself (and losing a turn) or not+the constant foul plays youre getting hit by that will wear anything down. I dont know what is even the point of this anymore. I am not saying klefki 6-0 teams, i am saying it cripples teams easily so that a team mate can clean up, and thats exactly what it does which imo is enough for A rank.
Yes, and there's mons out there that don't care about Swagger or Foul Play (see: my examples). SwagKey is inconsistent even without those mons because you are playing a gamble as SwagKey as well. Luck can go both ways. More often it might go yours, but when battling over and over (ladder, and tournaments), chances are you are going to lose eventually because the opponent hit through confusion. Not to mention they can just switch around to get rid of Swagger.
Klefki is probably A-Rank, but it's more because of the support it provides with Dual Screens. SwagKey can be used if you're into that kind of thing I guess.
- Status