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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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I never mentioned that is should get an analysis, I just stated it that it is really viable, and he's not "Frail as hell"
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 266-314 (75.7 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 193-228 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And it is not that slow, as if you read my entire post, I did mention that he works extrmely well with a Choice Scarf, as with a Choice Scarf, that thing is outspeeding a lot of things, including Timid Jolteon, so now he isn't that slow.
Respectable bulk because it actually survives priority and that massive HP helps the recoil. And still no, it's better than Infernape's bulk.
Flare Blitz is affected by Sheer Force, and Fire Punch is used for any player who dislikes recoil, it was used greatly last gen.
and if he was a "C", that is implying that it is way worse than Kelfki, a statement I cannot agree to, and 95 outspeeds a lot of UU without a Scarf, and most of OU with a Scarf.
The fact that the QC team didn't approve of an analysis for it does say that it's not really for using and it is pretty damn frail.
I give you that, but what I meant by not frail is surviving priority, and I showed the clalcs, it survives 2 very common things in the OU metagame
Also, here's another calc
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 255-300 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You forgot to put a Choice Band.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 379-447 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Darmanitan is powerful and all, but it has crap defenses and is super slow in a tier filled with priority and fast attackers.
It's not going to be OU.
Those calcs didn't prove anything. That proves that you'll get killed off early-mid game with an iota of prior damage. Btw, try doing that same calc but with a sky plate, LO, or CB as it would be in battle. A Sky Plate BB is a guaranteed OHKO after SR and that's the smallest boost of the three.
Lol, I wouldn't have said that if I wasn't right
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs 0 hp / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 310-366 (88.3 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs 0 hp / 4 SpD Infernape 255-300 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Darmanitan has worse bulk than Infernape
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Most Talonflame's I'm seeing on Showdown and in-game are carrying Leftovers, I'm not arguing that what you mentioned is wrong, I'm just seeing that it was something common I saw (Yeah I know not good argument, but just saying).
And I never said it should be OU, Zapdos & Slowbro are in the "B" Tier and they were UU last gen, and hey, so is Darmanitan. yes B+ might be too good for him, but it's not falling under B- IMO as it does have some niche.
And I never said it should be OU, Zapdos & Slowbro are in the "B" Tier and they were UU last gen, and hey, so is Darmanitan. yes B+ might be too good for him, but it's not falling under B- IMO as it does have some niche.
Darmanitan doesn't even get a rating until it is established that it deserves an OU preview. You cannot compare it to zapdos and slowbro. They do not compete for the same roles as darmanitan. It's a different meta game. Zapdos and slowbro are more viable with the rise of mega lucario and talonflame. Just because you see that there are last gen UUs in the B tier, it doesn't mean darmanitan gets to be up there with them.
He fits the C rank far too well though
A. Crippling flaws:
1. Insufficient speed
2. Frail
B. Completely eclisped by pokemon in above ranks
Pokemon with the same role on a team are either much faster, much more bulky or have an amount of both.
Forgive me for not knowing that, and yeah the rest of the post does some logical. But I'm just gonna say, while not as reliable as Zapdos & Slowking, but Choice Scarf Darmanitan does survive Extreme Speed after SR, and OHKO-es w/ Flare Blitz, so it could be used to delete Mega Lucario as a threat (If carrying a Choice Scarf)
Yes it fits, but I also see it B-, or at least C+
Celebi ==> B rank
Celebi is partially outclassed by venesaur, but distinguishes itself with different resistances, natural cure, stronger special grass stab, and access to life orb. In addition it can run nasty plot+ baton pass. What celebi can do best is hard counter rotom-w and come in at hit back at fighting types with psychic.
As someone mentioned earlier there are tons of things that threaten celebi at the moment and make its life hard. However, these threats are similar enough that its not too hard to cover with proper team building. (Genesect, Talonflame, Pinsir, Tyranitar, Aegislash are some examples of threats. They can be covered for the most part with tyranitar and skarmory. Another problem that arises is that it's weak to set up sweepers that carry lum berry such as dragonite and volcorona, which makes terrakion a great partner.
While there are a lot of threats for it at the moment, it still can come in on many threats (pretty much any bulky water, support pokemon, or venesaur) and do its job, whether it be baton passing or just attacking, reasonably well.
Just to compare with other pokes currently ranked as B, Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Infernape, all pokes with their own problems, are B rank as of now.
You see it in B- because ____
You just want it to, when it's C+ at best? As I said, All of the wallbreakers in higher tiers are either much bulkier, faster, do his job better, or an amount of any if those.
No because I already mentioned my reasons, it is really fast with a Choice Scarf, and can survive most priority.
Specs Exploud is considered a C tier at best by some people. It has pretty much the same flaws as Darmanitan. Poor speed, average bulk, but with the right support it can blow holes through everything. Exploud, however, has an OU analysis because pretty much no other mon is competing for its niche, which is a powerful STAB Boomburst user, and Normal typing is actually kinda good now that Ghost attacks are strong. It's also not weak to SR, like Darmanitan is. What makes you think Darmanitan can go to B tier as a powerful wallbreaker when Exploud is the same on the Special side and is C tier at best?
In terms of Defoggers, there are two more notable users: the aforementioned Mandibuzz, and Crobat. Crobat has a different, but still decent defensive typing, an impressive 130 Speed stat, and a usable base Attack, suiting him more for moves such as Brave Bird and U-Turn, which doesn't give away momentum as often. It's typing gives it great resistances against Fighting, Grass, Bug, and notably, Fairy. These perks allow Crobat to stand out as a very efficient Defogger.
Thats absolutely false. Theres hardly anything celebi can come in atm, the majority of the tier just outright threatens it. It definitely cannot come in on venusaur because of sludge bomb and a lot of support pokemons completely laugh at celebi's face such as mandibuzz, skarmory, blissey, chansey and zapdos. The meta is simply not kind to it and that alone makes the prospect of setupping and passing nasty plot a very hard task. Dont forget that mew and smeargle are also competing for the role and both boast more utility than celebi (mew has defog and taunt while smeargle has everything). Until swift swim kingdra start taking the meta by a storm celebi is not going to have any important use.
No, this is the same dumb argument people used last gen when they said "Jirachi being S would imply it's better than garchomp", yes I may have been anti-S rachi back then but that was a really bad argument regardless of which side you were on. Being in a higher rank means they have a niche/roll that they do pull off more successfully or a oll that is less competed for or a roll that is a better roll to take in the metagame. It's not a direct comparison.
On darmanitan's actual placement, it simply is not very effective in this metagame and is just "why would you need to use this thing other than a very VERY tiny niche". I wouldn't use it in teambuilding (though I am mainly a stall/semi stall player), and it generally just, doesn't do much in OU
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While I'm not saying I agree with any side on this argument (still thinking it out) just, calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 73-88 (20 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKOv
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I agree that a few other pokes compete for nasty plot passing. To me the nasty plot set actually seems inferior to just the regular bulky all out attacker set. It can still do its job, any many of the pokes such as talonflame or even genesect don't want to switch into a psychic. Not to mention that band tyranitar can predict a switch on either of these pokes and OHKO w/ pursuit.
Being able to resist earthquake, fighting, psychic, and water is extremely useful, and unlike venesaur, celebi doesn't fear a burn. Celebi with 60 HP is 3HKO'd by sludge bomb, but celebi has recover too.
It certainly has as much use as tentacruel or jellicent which are other somewhat rain reliant B ranked mons. It definitely has as much if not more use than glavantula a B- mon.
Being able to resist earthquake, fighting, psychic, and water is extremely useful, and unlike venesaur, celebi doesn't fear a burn. Celebi with 60 HP is 3HKO'd by sludge bomb, but celebi has recover too.
It certainly has as much use as tentacruel or jellicent which are other somewhat rain reliant B ranked mons. It definitely has as much if not more use than glavantula a B- mon.
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Darminatan does have better speed, is immune to burn (I know Exploud doesn't care, but I'm just saying), and I did mention that Char X,Y, and Heatran outclass it, and so does Infernape, maybe Victini. And that's why it shouldn't be B or above. yes I know that tiers are based on usage and comparison, And I do have to say, that Darminatan may not fit in B, but at the very least B-, because Choice Scarf Darmanitan outspeed a lot, because even with Choice Scarf he is 2HKO-ing almost anything not resistant in UU & OU, because Darmanitan has enough bulk to survive priority damage after SR (other than Aqua Jet) which is good enough IMO, and because Darmanitan has that huge base attack that will allow it to use U-Turn and Rock Slide quite nicely.
Has anyone talked about Victini yet? I'm too lazy to search through 39 pages of replies for one pokemon.
Anyway, in my opinion, Victini should be within the B/B+ Tier.
1) With a choice Scarf, Victini can outspeed many pokemon and decimate entire teams with V-Create.
2) Victini is one of the best checks to Genesect, due to the fact that it can resist both Ice Beam and Flamethrower, extremely common moves on Genesect, and its natural bulk.
3) Great synergy with Dugtrio to bait a flash fire user (since people predict the V-Create most of the time) and escape with U-turn and trap the flash fire user and doom it.
4) Its psychic typing gives it relatively poor STAB and defenses, since it is weak to Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, and therefore cannot revenge kill Aegislash nor Mega Absol (etc), and due to its fire typing, struggles to revenge kill aqua jet users.
5) V-Create has a horrible drawback that makes Victini a hit and run user, and almost gives an opponent a free turn each time.
6) Since it will be switching in and out constantly, Rapid Spin/Defog support is next to necessary.
7) Since Victini's best options are Choice Scarf/Band, it can lead to a free switch/bad results if the wrong move is used.
Anyway, in my opinion, Victini should be within the B/B+ Tier.
1) With a choice Scarf, Victini can outspeed many pokemon and decimate entire teams with V-Create.
2) Victini is one of the best checks to Genesect, due to the fact that it can resist both Ice Beam and Flamethrower, extremely common moves on Genesect, and its natural bulk.
3) Great synergy with Dugtrio to bait a flash fire user (since people predict the V-Create most of the time) and escape with U-turn and trap the flash fire user and doom it.
4) Its psychic typing gives it relatively poor STAB and defenses, since it is weak to Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, and therefore cannot revenge kill Aegislash nor Mega Absol (etc), and due to its fire typing, struggles to revenge kill aqua jet users.
5) V-Create has a horrible drawback that makes Victini a hit and run user, and almost gives an opponent a free turn each time.
6) Since it will be switching in and out constantly, Rapid Spin/Defog support is next to necessary.
7) Since Victini's best options are Choice Scarf/Band, it can lead to a free switch/bad results if the wrong move is used.
1st, this isn't UU so don't bring that up, it's useless crap info that's just argument conversation piece junk, 2nd of all, why should I use this over DD mega char, victini, infernape or etc.? they all have higher speed, better coverage, better bulk, and just preform a lot better in this metagame, there is little to no reason to use it in this meta and it is almost 100% eclipsed by higher tier mons, it fits C perfectly, most of your arguments are also using no evidence and just saying "it good use it, stronk wallbreak, good.
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U-turn is only decent on it with that below average speed tier and rock slide is filler, imo rock slide is not /actually/ good, just 4th slot filler
WIll reply to victini argument with thoughts lter, as victini is a mon that I've used constantly in this meta and I know a fair amount about it
I know darmanitan is not the best pokemon, and it's been rather beaten to death in the past few pages, but consider this
120*1.5*1.3*1.3 = 304, off of massive 140 base attack.
basepower*stab*sheer force*lifeorb
Victini:
180*1.5 = 270, off of measly 100 base atk. And lowers speed
Charizard X:
120*1.5*1.3 = 234, off of base 130 base atk.
Both are significantly weaker, and barely faster. Darmanitan is one of the fewest pokemon who can just spam FB and destroy shit. 95 is enough to wallbreak, and that's all it is meant to do. Destroy the opponent's core so your other pokemon can sweep. Dies early game to help you win. This is a niche, and one that is filled very nicely by darmanitan and few other pokemon (staraptor). Aka, I think you're completely wrong to say it is outclassed in this meta. It will get an analysis and be ranked in the future i'm sure
Ok, wut? I JUST said that the pokemons you just mention outclass Darminatan, you are reiterating my words to provide an argument. And, I know it's heavily outclassed by both Charizards, and I said that more than one time, Yes it's not B because Infernape is there, but yes Infernape does outclass it, but not by too much, and that's why I said it should be B-, and while Infernape has that nice Iron Fist, and Victini does have that nice V-Create, but Sheer Force Flare Blitz does not only do way more than any of Infernape's moves, but also is spammable unlike Victini's V-Create and does more damage, 95 Speed, even without a choice Scarf, is enough speed to wallbreak IMO, I mean we all know that Nidoking is good enough w/ 85 Spe.
Also
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1524-1792 (396.8 - 466.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1384-1632 (360.4 - 425%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ok, JOLLY CHOICE SCARF Darmanitan does more than Jolly Choice Scarf Victini, and that's without a Life Orb on Darmanitan. And unlike V-create, Flare Blitz is spammable as while you may die, you are at least killing 2 pokes on his team (If say no prior damage). I think B- tier works great for him, and I did provide evidence, and provided with way too many calcs, and I'm not saying "oh Darmanitan should be B- because he is my fav poke" no. And 95 is enough to wallbreak.
Let's compare Darmanitan to the wallbreakers of the A and S ranks.
1. Mixed Aegislash
Much higher bulk, much better typing, higher base Attack and Special attack, has priority, less speed but the difference is negligible because in this meta it's practically >100 or gfto
2. Mixed MegaChomp
Much better bulk, much better mixed attacking stats, practically identical speed, takes up mega slot
3. CB Azumarill
Much better bulk, much better typing, hits like a train wreck, has priority, neglibigle speed difference for the same reason as Aegislash
4. ZardY
much better nuke in general but has a bad SR weakness and takes up the mega slot
5. Mega Mawile
better bulk, highest base attack in the game after factoring in Huge Power, one of the best typings, has strong priority, takes up mega slot, slower but that still doesn't matter for wallbreakers
6. Kyurem-B
Higher base attack stat, higher special attack, much better bulk, same speed, SR weakness, poor physical movepool
7. Mega Medicham
100% better than darmanitan except it takes up the mega slot
8. Conkeldurr
same attack stat and also has sheer force, much better bulk, one of the best AV users, does everything darmanitan can but with even more viable options except it is a lot slower but, finally, that doesn't matter too much for wallbreakers
As you can see, it is completely eclipsed by pokemon in the higher ranks. If all those pokemon had much less reasons why it's overall better than darmanitan, then it could be a B but it when compared to the pokemon of the higer ranks it only has one maybe two slight advantages over them, while they completely outclass it at everything else. That is why Darmanitan is a C. Plz dude, this argument should not have lasted this long. Can we please argue about something else like maybe a ranking for Mega Abomasnow?
And please don't bring up goddamn scarf Darmanitan because I really don't want to make all of the comparisons to show you why you're wrong again.
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