Unofficial UUs (Read Post #13) (don't post bugs here)

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cmon guys, I know UU looks really messy right now, and that there is a lot of shit that "shouldn't" be here (as well as lots of shit that should be there), but that's what UU always looks like at the beginning of a gen. As time goes by, UU will settle a lot more. In the meantime, go test a bunch and see if these "broken" things are really as threatening as you're saying they are. I'm sure a lot of them are, but they should be properly tested first.

People don't seem to get that this is a new generation, so a lot of stuff that may have been solid OU/Uber last gen can be UU just fine. Remember how Mew was Uber in DPP, and it was solid UU (although it almost rose up to OU a few times) with few problems back in BW.
 
It's also considering that excadrill outclasses donphan in most respects. It has some extra weaknesses, but at the same time donphan's niche over excadrill is so small that I'm suprised that the player base warrant its continued use.

I know PO sort of are treating UU as proper, but at PO as well as here on smogon we're equaly concious that OU is unstable enough that there's going to still be a lot of changes, drops and moving up. And as to comments on player quality.. I really don't want to go there. Both PO and PS's ladders are equally filled with noobs - I'll say that the top of PS's ladders tend to be better than the tops of PO's, but even still the top of PS's ladder don't contribute to the stats any more than the bottom running their team of magikarp, rattata, feebas, charizard, pikachu, and blastoise. Weighted statistics do fairly well to remedy this, but they're not used for tiering, so the point stands. And equally, a lot of UU is valid in OU, and the differences between PO and Smogon in terms of what's been used is partly due to the differeing cut off point (I'm not 100% sure PO are using the new cut off yet though so you don't have to take my word for it), and partly due to stuff that can't really be explained.

And chesnaught I'm feeling the hippo love, I'm using it to great effect in ubers. That being said it would not be out of place in UU or even RU/LU.

I don't think discussing a playable BL tier is a wise move until we're into may/june even, when the meta should be approaching something more resembling stability. If we find UU to be dominatd by a small number of pokes (say a list of Kyu-B/Keldeo/Terrakion/Politoed/Kingdra/Chandelure/Ninetales/Manaphy, and a few others, who knows what it'll be like in 3 months time anyway) then maybe that should b discussed. But before then you have a fun unstable new tier to try and find as many broken things as possible in.
 
Scarf KB is absolute domination late-game. Ran it with a TR team, just cleans house late-game as some people have witnessed on alt Chillarmy Hate.
 
This gen UU looks REALLY interesting.
But may I say that one of the most interesting things I found in the usage is: Chatot's usage being higher than Typhlosion and right under Spiritomb. But has still higher usage than Tornadus, Cobalion, Virizon, Uxie, and Kyurem. That's very interesting.

That's how good Boomburst is.

Chatot | 0.272% | | 198 |
Typhlosion | 0.264% | | 199 |
Gorebyss | 0.263% | | 200 |
Venomoth | 0.262% | | 201 |
Steelix | 0.258% | | 202 |
Aurorus | 0.254% | | 203 |
Lilligant | 0.254% | | 204 |
Durant | 0.253% | | 205 |
Lapras | 0.252% | | 206 |
Mr. Mime | 0.250% | | 207 |
Golem | 0.244% | | 208 |
Flareon | 0.230% | | 209 |
Volbeat | 0.227% | | 210 |
Torkoal | 0.217% | | 211 |
Shedinja | 0.217% | | 212 |
Virizion | 0.214% | | 213 |
Drifblim | 0.214% | | 214 |
Cobalion | 0.212% | | 215 |
Pikachu | 0.200% | | 216 |
Gourgeist-Small | 0.199% | | 217 |
Nidoqueen | 0.196% | | 218 |
Escavalier | 0.194% | | 219 |
Uxie | 0.192% | | 220 |
Accelgor | 0.186% | | 221 |
Kyurem | 0.180% | | 222 |
Alomomola | 0.180% | | 223 |
Swellow | 0.179% | | 224 |
Exeggutor | 0.179% | | 225 |
Torterra | 0.178% | | 226 |
Granbull | 0.176% | | 227 |
Tornadus | 0.173% |
 
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The OU ladder is currently completely glitched. For example the number 1, Hogapen has an ACRE of 3710 but has a win/lose ration of 32/39. Many other players have ridiculous acres in the same sort of ballpark with terrible w/l rations as well. I know that the higher ladder rank you are, the more influence you have on usage statistics. Could these bad players that are on top of the ladder due to it being fucked up, be throwing off the usage statistics? That would explain how smeargle is somehow OU while Keldeo is UU.

If so what should be done?
 
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Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

This is my favorite Pokemon to use in UU right now. Bisharp gained two massive buffs in XY: Knock Off and Steel no longer resisting Dark. Knock Off is an amazing move since it hits with a 97.5 Base Power if the opponent has an item and then knocks off that item. With that, Bisharp can effectively cripple defensive Pokemon by stripping them of their Leftovers/Eviolites (in the case of Porygon2), as well as cripple weather Pokemon by removing their weather stone (do note that the weather will still last for 8 turns the first time around due to Knock Off working after the weather has been set), while still hitting very hard. With the Steel nerf, Bisharp doesn't have to run a Fighting-type move such as Low Kick to decimate Steel-types, since it can do the same with Knock Off, especially with Bronzong, which is now weak to Dark. Bisharp also gets a strong priority move in Sucker Punch which is very useful for revenge killing the likes of Latias, Victini, and Kingdra (always OHKOes!). Iron Head compliments Bisharp's Dark typing by hitting Fairies super effectively, always OHKOing 252/0 Florges even without Stealth Rock. While I always find myself attacking when using Bisharp, setting up a Swords Dance on a predicted switch can be game-changing, as Bisharp can now OHKO Kyurem-B with Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock + some residual damage, and even if it isn't in the OHKO range, remember that Bisharp can always live mixed Kyurem-B's Earth Power. Swords Dance can also be set up when you're up against a Latias or Reuniclus and the Sucker Punch is painfully obvious (causing them to switch), although it's a bold move since the latter commonly carries Focus Blast. Fighting-types, however, completely wall this Bisharp; fortunately, Fighting-types are somewhat rare, with the only common ones being Keldeo and Heracross, the former of which can be Knocked Off on the switch. Do note that Jellicent can take on both of the aforementioned Pokemon with relative ease, specially if it's a Mega Heracross (since they never run Night Slash/Knock Off afaik).

Edit: Chatot being higher than Escavalier is just insane and rachet67, I don't think this is the place to post that.
 
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Chatot did get Boomburst and now Chatter has 100% Chance of confusion, note that Chatot has STAB Boomburst coming off a SpA higher than Exploud. So I think those buff are really good, but I never though it would be more than the way buffed Escalavier and the previous UU threats such as Cobalion and Virizon
 
Swamp-Rocket said:
The difference between Mawile and Kangaskhan is that Mega Kangaskhan is banned outright, meaning it can no longer account for Kangaskhan's usage, meaning the chance of Kang being OU next shift is none. On the other hand, Mawile itself has enough usage in OU thanks to its Mega Forme and that is still going to be the case in the future because you can still use it.
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That makes perfect sense, which is annoying, because now I won't be able to use Mawile in the lower tiers any more...

Professional2341 said:
Chatot did get Boomburst and now Chatter has 100% Chance of confusion, note that Chatot has STAB Boomburst coming off a SpA higher than Exploud. So I think those buff are really good, but I never though it would be more than the way buffed Escalavier and the previous UU threats such as Cobalion and Virizon
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Just out of curiosity, and for the sake conversation, what buffs did Escavalier get?
 
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Nerav said:
Just out of curiosity, and for the sake conversation, what buffs did Escavalier get?
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Escavalier got Drill Run, which allows it to FINALLY hit Ground- and Fire-types for super effective damage; this combined with Escavalier's sky-high attack and very cool typing and bulk should definitely make it a UU staple. Also, Steel-types got buffed with the intrduction of Fairy-type since they resist Fairy and can hit them super effectively with their own STABs :o

Edit: Also look at the post two posts below mine for more buffs :)

rachet67 said:
The OU ladder is currently completely glitched. For example the number 1, Hogapen has an ACRE of 3710 but has a win/lose ration of 32/39. Many other players have ridiculous acres in the same sort of ballpark with terrible w/l rations as well. I know that the higher ladder rank you are, the more influence you have on usage statistics. Could these bad players that are on top of the ladder due to it being fucked up, be throwing off the usage statistics? That would explain how smeargle is somehow OU while Keldeo is UU.

If so what should be done?
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Smeargle is one of the two good users of Sticky Web, so it makes sense for it to be OU since many people are trying it out.
 
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Smeargle is one of the two good users of Sticky Web, so it makes sense for it to be OU since many people are trying it out.
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People are trying it out on smeargle, but not really people that have the best w/l ratios (I'm guessing there are some with good w/l ratios, but I'm generalizing). The people with good w/l ratios are supposed to have to most influence on usage statistics. I'm 31/9 at 2216 (which is not even top 500 at this point) and I've seen progressively less sticky web and smeargle as I've moved up the ladder. However, since the ladder is glitched, and people with bad w/l ratio's are at top, its possible that smeargle is overrepresented in usage statistics. Other pokes that you generally see lower on the ladder may also be overrepresented.
 
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I must say... seeing Kyurem-Black, Deoxys-Speed, and Florges in UU beta made me laugh a little.

Rohail said:
Escavalier got Drill Run, which allows it to FINALLY hit Ground- and Fire-types for super effective damage; this combined with Escavalier's sky-high attack and very cool typing and bulk should definitely make it a UU staple. Also, Steel-types got buffed with the intrduction of Fairy-type since they resist Fairy and can hit them super effectively with their own STABs :o
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This is heavy. Awesome addition.
 
Rohail said:
Escavalier got Drill Run, which allows it to FINALLY hit Ground- and Fire-types for super effective damage; this combined with Escavalier's sky-high attack and very cool typing and bulk should definitely make it a UU staple. Also, Steel-types got buffed with the intrduction of Fairy-type since they resist Fairy and can hit them super effectively with their own STABs :o


Smeargle is one of the two good users of Sticky Web, so it makes sense for it to be OU since many people are trying it out.
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Your forgot the buff of overcoat, which makes him immune to Spore & powder moves, and you also forgot the HUGE buff of Knock off, which was a viable move on him before the buff.
 
Drill Run isn't even that big. There's not much room to use it and Knock Off does decent damage to Steel-types already (don't get me wrong -- Drill Run is still a great option). The big buffs are Assault Vest + Knock Off, both of which Escavalier loves. You guys should try him out :toast:
 
Rohail said:
Escavalier got Drill Run, which allows it to FINALLY hit Ground- and Fire-types for super effective damage; this combined with Escavalier's sky-high attack and very cool typing and bulk should definitely make it a UU staple. Also, Steel-types got buffed with the intrduction of Fairy-type since they resist Fairy and can hit them super effectively with their own STABs :o
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Those sound like really nice buffs. Thank you for replying.
 
Also Escavalier gets Fell Stinger, which may not be that great, but it is honestly a great way to have +2 when holding an Assault Vest.

With the buff that DTC, Rohail, and myself have mentioned, Escavalier is solid UU; however it has yet to be realized by commoners.
 
DTC said:
Drill Run isn't even that big. There's not much room to use it and Knock Off does decent damage to Steel-types already (don't get me wrong -- Drill Run is still a great option). The big buffs are Assault Vest + Knock Off, both of which Escavalier loves. You guys should try him out :toast:
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Why didn't I think of AV Esca ;-; Anyway I'm going to try it out asap, but for now I'll present a theory so this post isn't useless:

AV Esca seems to be a great check to Latias and Kyurem-B, as it isn't 2HKOed by any move (correct me here) unless there are hazards up, while it can OHKO Latias with Megahorn and has an 18.8% chance oh OHKOing Kyurem-B with Iron Head after SR. So to everyone scared of these threats, try AV Escavalier out. Also, I'm aware that someone is going to say something about HP Fire Latias, but HP Fire only has a 16% chance to 2HKO Escavalier, and due to the nerf it received, it's relatively rare.

Oh and here's the set that I'm thinking of:

Escavalier @ Assault Vest
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Drill Run
 
I can attest to both Escavalier and Bisharp being pretty good in this metagame, and I'm definitely hoping for Escavalier to reclaim its old UU status (it was pretty good in last gen's UU for the record). It hits hard thanks to a pretty awesome Attack stat and STAB Megahorn, which is pretty strong. Assault Vest Escavalier makes a pretty good check to a number of Pokemon, and Iron Head is pretty cool to hit Florges and Gardevoir. Drill Run is definitely a nice buff, as is Knock Off, so Chandelure will never get a free switch-in since both moves will give it ton of punishment. Also, Knock Off is neat because it cripples Cofagrigus and Gligar (and does a pretty good chunk of damage to the former. It's definitely really good right now and definitely deserves a slot on a team.

Rohail covered my thoughts on Bisharp, imo it's probably one of the strongest Pokemon in the metagame (it was alright last gen, but this time it owns).

I'll make a couple of more comments here.

From the looks of it, Mega Gardevoir is a really strong threat atm. Pixilate Hyper Voice brings tons of pain, and it gets a ton of neat coverage moves such as Focus Blast, Psyshock (good for Roserade/Nidos), Shadow Ball, etc. Its Special bulk and usable Speed tier are definitely something as well to help it, so it can take special hits well. It could run CM or Taunt to make it a really strong threat, and is overall really good. Probably one of the better Pokemon to use right now.

Rain is also really common, and I also see Kabutops possibly rising out of RU at this rate. Even with the nerf it's still pretty decent, and there are a bunch of neat abusers around.
 
OMG Slurpuff is awesome

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
252spe/252atk/4hp
Adamant
-Play Rough
-Return
-Substitute
-Belly Drum

Ok I know this thing has counters and noticeable flaws so don't flame me xD, but basically it sets up on an attack it can take and just sweeps. I like this in mid-late game when all the steel types are gone.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-74659495 this is just a clip of what slurpuff does. I'm STAHP THE HAX btw :p
 
^ Do not run sub on belly drum slurpuff. Use Flamethrower instead for the steel coverage.

Anyway, with the way things are, I'm more or less curious how this is going to mess with lower tiers, specifically NU and if there will be a need for something like a tier below that to actually exist for real since half of PU was just the second evolution of OU Pokemon
 
Rykard said:
^ Do not run sub on belly drum slurpuff. Use Flamethrower instead for the steel coverage.

Anyway, with the way things are, I'm more or less curious how this is going to mess with lower tiers, specifically NU and if there will be a need for something like a tier below that to actually exist for real since half of PU was just the second evolution of OU Pokemon
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This is not the place to ask this. When the time comes (probably after NU is established), there may be a discussion on whether to add a new official lower tier. I would say it is unlikely that there will be a new official lower tier this gen, but it's not implausible.
 
Rohail said:
Why didn't I think of AV Esca ;-; Anyway I'm going to try it out asap, but for now I'll present a theory so this post isn't useless:

AV Esca seems to be a great check to Latias and Kyurem-B, as it isn't 2HKOed by any move (correct me here) unless there are hazards up, while it can OHKO Latias with Megahorn and has an 18.8% chance oh OHKOing Kyurem-B with Iron Head after SR. So to everyone scared of these threats, try AV Escavalier out. Also, I'm aware that someone is going to say something about HP Fire Latias, but HP Fire only has a 16% chance to 2HKO Escavalier, and due to the nerf it received, it's relatively rare.

Oh and here's the set that I'm thinking of:

Escavalier @ Assault Vest
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Drill Run
Click to expand...

If you are running AV, I believe Fell Stinger would be a nice move there, as it gets you at +2 easily if you put it on the right switch-in. Furthermore

+2 252+ Atk Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 238-281 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So you can get rid of Iron Head/Mega Horn to still Achieve a 2HKO (Knock off + Drill Run) on a Kyurem-B after SR, you need to require +2 beforehand though.


Also, for all that, Chatot having more usage is quite amazing, in fact, I have a Chatot team that I laddered with 2000+ (I did have Mega Luc & Sticky Web support but still Chatot played a big role)
 
Well, each generation there is a net of say 120 new pokemon.. each tier seems to run about 40 main pokemon, usually less for ubers, a little more for the others. Then say maybe 4 in each borderline tier. If we take Ubers, OU, UU, LU, NU, LC, LC UU as being able to accomodate 50 each, then we have only used about 300 or so of the available pokemon, maybe more. I've probably made some underestimates, and there's BL and even if I went with 50 in each tier, called 150 pokes garbage, and say 30 BL of various kinds of pokes, then that's only 530 pokes that either have a place or have no place.. at this rate that leaves around about 200 spare pokemon that are probably at some standard able to form an interesting metagame with other pokemon.. some pokemon like plusle and corsola (see: garbage) would end up being in a really low tier with tons of LC and Middle Cup mons, should we take it to extremes, but it seems that a lot of pokemon people would like to use don't have a tier in which they're really valid (see, for an example that suits me, mawile gen 3-5, it was sh*te even in NU, with both poor bulk and attacking power).. NU is always over-full, but an official PU at this rate looks like it could be valid. They say at the start of a gen that the UU looks like the previous gen's OU to an extent, and we're seeing large elements of truth in it. So surely it is not a stretch of analogy to wonder where last gen's NU pokemon go? Or even DPP/HGSS? Maybe we could even have 5 stat-based tiers + ubers (+LC and LC UU)? I'm just thinking with the absolute weight of pokemon we have, why some of them still have absolutely no niche and look like they never will be, and also looking at some pokes in prvious gen's NUs that look like they have something to offer.. I can see that in some ways, madness lies, but I think at the same time we've an overwhelming number of pokemon we can use.. I've even beeen toying with the idea of creating a tier from the bottom up, with magikarp, feebas, wurmple, etc. and working out what outclasses stuff in there, and removing stuff until I have the lowest of low tiers.. but that's a fun story I should probably keep to myself.

tl;dr - I support the idea of an Official PU, especially under the sheer weight of pokemon we have.

Lol here's another weird thought - a tier like monotype except it's mono-egg group or mono-shape or something like that...

I guess I'm being a tierwhore but I still think we have shedloads of pokemon and not enough desire to see what each one was built to do.
 
Professional2341 said:
If you are running AV, I believe Fell Stinger would be a nice move there, as it gets you at +2 easily if you put it on the right switch-in. Furthermore

+2 252+ Atk Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 238-281 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So you can get rid of Iron Head/Mega Horn to still Achieve a 2HKO (Knock off + Drill Run) on a Kyurem-B after SR, you need to require +2 beforehand though.


Also, for all that, Chatot having more usage is quite amazing, in fact, I have a Chatot team that I laddered with 2000+ (I did have Mega Luc & Sticky Web support but still Chatot played a big role)
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Honestly, Fell Stinger is very situational, as the opposing Pokemon would need to be very low on health or be a Malamar at <33% health for it to actually work. Furthermore, every move on Escavalier is very important and getting rid of one for a practically useless move would make Escavalier very inefficient imo. Also, Escavalier seriously cannot afford to lose out on either STAB, as they both help check Latias and Kyurem-B. The calc which you proposed is very unlikely because of the situational use of Fell Stinger, and would therefore make Escavalier lose out on its ability to check Kyurem-B. As for Chatot, I really don't like it because of its extreme frailty and the fact that many Pokemon can live a Boomburst and just OHKO back. Furthermore, it's Speed tier does not match up to the current metagame, as it fails to outspeed even Kyurem-B. Do you have any replays of it doing anything?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the idea idea of PU, this gen really did not introduce that many new Pokemon (92, I think), so I don't know if adding a new tier is really a good idea. Regardless, I'll leave it up to senior staff to decide.
 
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