Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Now, after reading up on the arguments regarding Mega-Venu, I honestly feel it's more A+ than S. I did initially start of being unsure on how to rank it, but after playing around with it I figure it has some issues. My first statement here would be that it truly does not enjoy residual damage, as it means it's much more easily whittled down due to the leftovers lack... obviously, it can use Synthesis/Leech Seed to replenish this, but that's simply not enough considering one could force it out before it heals up. It doesn't handle VoltTurn teams too well due to the gradual whittling, and they are very prevalent in this meta. It surely does not take a lot of damage from the main users of the moves, but that's not what the intent is either in VoltTurn. This pokemon, like walls in general, does not enjoy continual whittling. Sure, it's bulk is outstanding, it has options to harm most switch-ins, but at the end of the day that's simply calcs. You might state that I'm only talking about one play-style, and I did only mention one, but the idea is that with this meta being centered around heavy hitters.. it's a bit too easy to weaken a bit before you switch in a potential sweeper. Meaning you have either to let your Venu get 2HKOd or leave one pokemon in to die first.

Both sides in the argument repeats the same arguments a bit too much though, so it's kinda hard to give an idea of it.

I'm still open to hear something that isn't mentioned, but it really seems to not fulfill the S role based on my experience with it combined with the arguments.

 

[escarlata]

M-Venusaur for S

Great typing with great resists, good bulk, and lack of weakness, letting it wall teams after their primary flier/psychic types are gone.

Despite many teams has been naturally prepared for M-Venusaur with stuff like burns, Flying, Psychic and the likes, M-Venusaur still is able to wall whole teams that lack these Pokemons. Let's be honest, not all team run all the top Pokemon's in the viability list, any team without a Super Effective move will have a lot of trouble getting past it before it weakens half you team or more.

On the note of weather screwing Venusaur up, I tend to disagree. I personally have experimented with Rain offense and Sand offense this gen to test the influence in the new weather mechanics on these archetypes (and each reaching 22xx or more on the rankings). Despite that, I still found Venusaur a trouble for weather offense to break through, even with weather lowering Synthesis recovery, even when I do have Latias with Psychic. In fact, I'd say the presence of Venusaur alone makes weather offense less viable.

When reading the calculations on the previous pages where Venusaur get 2 hitted by boosted attacks, it actually seems that those calculations are more in Venusaur's favor, because it means that Venusaur can switch into any of them when they come in at +0, and survive. I almost wanted to laugh when someone said Venusaur cannot wall well because it cannot switch into +2 Lucario's Flash Cannon, even direct counters like Moltres get 2HKOed by +2 Lucario, and even Giratina gets 2HKOed by that. Venusaur's defining quality as a wall is that it can switch into many Pokemons before they boost up, and survive 2 unboosted hits from them, or give 1 hit if they boost up on the switch. That, I believe is enough to be qualified as a S-rank defensive Pokemon, since there isn't anything else that can claim the same feat.

The most ridiculous claim I saw the opposing side said is that having reliable recovery is giving the opponent free turns. If going by that logic, then even Uber behemoths like Lugia and Giratina are giving free turns when healing up. And Venusaur can still heal without resorting to Synthesis thanks to Giga Drain, which heals a chunk off anything that doesn't resist it, which is a great asset to make up for the lack of leftovers recovery. In the same vein, another ridiculous thing is how people say Venusaur doesn't not have enough offensive presence. Even when uninvested, Venusaur has more SAtk than a fully invested Starmie, definitely enough offensive presence for a defensive Pokemon imo.

Another argument aimed against is that Venusaur has 4MSS, but it is in fact not the case because Venusaur still gets its job done (seriously, it can even even be A rank worthy with only 1 move slot for Giga Drain). We know that the other moves that are ran other than Giga Drain include 3 of Synthesis/Roar/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed/Sludge Bomb/EQ/HP Fire. While it has a lot of options to choose from, it certainly does not need all of them to function properly. Really any 3 makes it rather formidable to defeat until you scouted all of its moves which it will have at least screwed something up royally.

 

[Colonel M]

I actually agree with Mega Venusaur for A to A+. It is an excellent tank; however, the biggest opportunity cost Mega Venusaur has is its denial of another potential Mega (in particular Mega Lucario). Not being able to check Talonflame, though a top tier threat based on usage, can still be handled through other Pokemon in a defensive core with Mega Venusaur. And I disagree with not having to need dedicated Pokemon to handle Mega Venusaur - it stops many top tier threats cold such as Gyarados without Bounce, Mega Lucario in general, and Azumarill. And let's face it - Rotom-W is poor at handling Mega Lucario and barely checks Azumarill (Play Rough 2HKOes). Alas, S Venusaur I cannot see. The mega slot just pushes it to A tier for me.

As far as 4MSS it is kind of true, but really I find Sleep Powder to be mediocre this generation. Which helps run Sludge Bomb / Synthesis / Giga Drain / Earthquake. I actually think the only non-negotiating attacks are Synthesis and Sludge Bomb. Sleep Powder is good but it has been nerfed way too hard to justify it as a mandatory attack.

 

[Sylphnir]

One could argue that everything on S-Rank should by definition be so powerful that it's at least borderline ban-worthy.
Being S isn't necessarily only a good thing.
Is Venusaur-M oppressive enough to even warrant a suspect test?

But I guess that's a simple minded thought.

 

[myw]

Of course you are going to disagree very much, as all the argument you presented is about how "it is not bad", but largely irrelevant to how "it is not good enough". Most your arguement applies for A+ rank as well, which I agree. And now we are talking about S.

I am not denying I am being really picky about S ranks, which I do not expect to be this spotty.

Also, I am a bit tired how the affirmative side rarely(if ever) count their move slots when they present their argument.

No, that's not it. You stated various deficiencies you think msaur has, and I told you that those deficiencies weren't there.

Basically, the things you think are spotty are not.

But anyway, considering Rotom-W, the next best wall is in A+, and can't recover on will, I'm fairly sure msaur is good enough.

Colonel M, you have a point about the mega opportunity cost, but I don't think we're considering that here, else all other megas get bumped down.

 

[Lazybeef]

I actually agree with Mega Venusaur for A to A+. It is an excellent tank; however, the biggest opportunity cost Mega Venusaur has is its denial of another potential Mega (in particular Mega Lucario). Not being able to check Talonflame, though a top tier threat based on usage, can still be handled through other Pokemon in a defensive core with Mega Venusaur. And I disagree with not having to need dedicated Pokemon to handle Mega Venusaur - it stops many top tier threats cold such as Gyarados without Bounce, Mega Lucario in general, and Azumarill. And let's face it - Rotom-W is poor at handling Mega Lucario and barely checks Azumarill (Play Rough 2HKOes). Alas, S Venusaur I cannot see. The mega slot just pushes it to A tier for me.

As far as 4MSS it is kind of true, but really I find Sleep Powder to be mediocre this generation. Which helps run Sludge Bomb / Synthesis / Giga Drain / Earthquake. I actually think the only non-negotiating attacks are Synthesis and Sludge Bomb. Sleep Powder is good but it has been nerfed way too hard to justify it as a mandatory attack.

Megasaur is the only truly defensive mega and thus it does not need to compete with other megas for a team slot on defensive teams.

 

[Photofluid]

No, that's not it. You stated various deficiencies you think msaur has, and I told you that those deficiencies weren't there.

Basically, the things you think are spotty are not.

But anyway, considering Rotom-W, the next best wall is in A+, and can't recover on will, I'm fairly sure msaur is good enough.

Colonel M, you have a point about the mega opportunity cost, but I don't think we're considering that here, else all other megas get bumped down.

Again, I am not claiming that Msaur has any major deficiency, but if we hold the standards strict than it just does those jobs which you claim to be did perfectly in a mediocre manner. No one denies Msaur to be good, but "not good enough" is our major arguement.

Also, Rotom-W does not gets A+ just as a wall, other A+ like Heatran and Latias are not entirely walls either. We don't really have a pure wall in the A+ rank so Msaur still outclasses every single other pure defensive pokeman being there, if that happens to be your argument.

 

[KyuubiPikachu]

Are people still arguing about Mega Saur. REALLY.
This thing is a AMAZING Mega.
Lack of reliable recovery from loss of Lefties/Black Sludge? You have Leech Seed,Giga Drain and Syntheis.
Waste of a Mega Slot?Depends on your team honestly but if Mega Saur is not one of your top considerations for a Mega other then Mega Luke and Mega Pinsir if your not battling with a team of poke's you like(Like I do) then I don't know what your consideration of a good Mega is.
4MSS?You have your stabs of choice.Sludge Bomb is a almost guaranteed option.If you use Syntheis for recovery you can use Energy Ball instead of Giga Drain.Earthquake is a almost guraanteed option or you get walled hard by Heatran.REALLY HARD. Your last slot is your prefence.
MegaSaur for S Rank!

 

[Photofluid]

Megasaur is the only truly defensive mega and thus it does not need to compete with other megas for a team slot on defensive teams.

which why it receives so much hype, I do think people are getting over-excited about having a usable mega in a defensive team, I am really curious about what will happen if GF introduces sap sipper MGastrodon or Flash fire(or similar) MScizorZ. Than people would be cooled down a bit about our #001

 

[KyuubiPikachu]

I am going to avoid the MegaSaur war that's be re-kindled day and night. We should honestly stop the war here now Mega Saur is talked about just as much as T-Flame and Slash.
Crobat for B Rank.
It's a fast de-fogger with a good stab in BB.I could talk more about it but it justifys itself.

 

[Lazybeef]

which why it receives so much hype, I do think people are getting over-excited about having a usable mega in a defensive team, I am really curious about what will happen if GF introduces sap sipper MGastrodon or Flash fire(or similar) MScizorZ. Than people would be cooled down a bit about our #001

*sigh* No, nothing is getting any hype at this point. We know what things do. The reason why megasaur is S-rank should be evident for anyone who reads the definition for S-rank.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

The bolded text is what megasaur does.That alone is enough for it to comfortably sit in S-rank.

 

[Rotosect]

Megasaur is the only truly defensive mega and thus it does not need to compete with other megas for a team slot on defensive teams.

This is false. Mega Scizor is bulkier than Skarmory, has decent special bulk, has access to excellent support moves such as Knock Off and Defog and can actually deal damage to boot.
I'd take Mega Scizor over Mega Venusaur any day. As soon as Genesect is out of the picture, I'll nominate Mega Scizor for S-rank.

 

[Jin White]

Seconding (or third-ing? it's been 53 goddamn pages) Rotom-H for B-rank.

B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B-rank fits him to a T, for the following reasons:

• Checks Genesect, M-Lucario, Aegislash, Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir
• Has a very unique defensive niche, being immune to both T-Wave and WoW
• Is as versatile as Rotom-W, sporting a VERY effective scarf set or competently playing defensive/support (Volt Switch, Overheat, T-Wave, WoW, Trick, etc)
• Has excellent STABs to abuse offensively, while resisting BoltBeam coverage. Actually has MORE resistances than Rotom-W in Electric, Grass, Bug, and Fairy (but arguably less forgiving weaknesses in Water and Rock).

However, it's got tough competition from higher-tiered Pokémon, notably Rotom-W and Heatran.

• Rotom-W is definitely more viable as a pivot because of Rotom-H's Achilles' Heel: Stealth Rocks weakness.
• If it's grass-types you want to check, Heatran arguably does it better while also offering Rocks/phazing/Toxic/etc. Rotom-H, though, has a more consistent answer to its 4x Ground weakness (Levitate versus Air Balloon), and better recovery options in Pain Split/ChestoResto.

Rotom-H is a perfect B-rank because it has a few niches: a Fire-type, defensive or offensive, who can Volt Switch, and has the kind of resistances even Heatran is forced to respect. Whether he's breaking kneecaps as a crippler, or roasting the Grass-types Rotom-W can't touch, he's a team player and a damn good one.

 

[Numera]

I actually agree with Mega Venusaur for A to A+. It is an excellent tank; however, the biggest opportunity cost Mega Venusaur has is its denial of another potential Mega (in particular Mega Lucario). Not being able to check Talonflame, though a top tier threat based on usage, can still be handled through other Pokemon in a defensive core with Mega Venusaur. And I disagree with not having to need dedicated Pokemon to handle Mega Venusaur - it stops many top tier threats cold such as Gyarados without Bounce, Mega Lucario in general, and Azumarill. And let's face it - Rotom-W is poor at handling Mega Lucario and barely checks Azumarill (Play Rough 2HKOes). Alas, S Venusaur I cannot see. The mega slot just pushes it to A tier for me.

As far as 4MSS it is kind of true, but really I find Sleep Powder to be mediocre this generation. Which helps run Sludge Bomb / Synthesis / Giga Drain / Earthquake. I actually think the only non-negotiating attacks are Synthesis and Sludge Bomb. Sleep Powder is good but it has been nerfed way too hard to justify it as a mandatory attack.

and i thought some of the mods would know what we Pro S are talking about. No offense, but..

Mega slot pushed you for mega venu to A? is this a joke? The Mega slot cannot instantly prevent S ranking. That is rediculos. Remember the critera for S? being able to consistantly wall a large portion of the meta, be versitile (it has 4mms, so yes it can be versitile as you might be unsure on one or two of its moves unlike most pokemon.)and to have its flaws to be made up for by its pros. I see nothing to do with mega slots. Tbh, Mega Venus could either fit a stall team or a hyper offensive team to wall the main sweeper(s) threats. Tbh what other mega would you use on a stall team? Mega Luc doesnt fit a full stall team. As for a HO team, you dont need a mega to be your main sweeper. Things like Aegislash, Talonflame, ect fit the bill as magnificent sweepers that arent megas. You cant say a mega slot being takens is bad. There are few better mega options then mega venusaur, so dont say ooh dat bad cause another not as good mega could be used ooh.

 

[Photofluid]

*sigh* No, nothing is getting any hype at this point. We know what things do. The reason why megasaur is S-rank should be evident for anyone who reads the definition for S-rank.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

The bolded text is what megasaur does.That alone is enough for it to comfortably sit in S-rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

You still walls a significant portion of the meta game, but all the arguements above are showing how Megasaur is not doing its job consistently(relying on offensive pressure, having to use recover frequently, most moves can still 3HKO, vulnerable against residue damage), still a lot more consistent than most other walls though, which is why I put it on A+.

 

[Niftyyyy]

I would like to nominate Mew for at least B+to A Rank

Mew was UU last gen, but he was still capable of competing in higher tiers due to his sheer versatility and unpredictability. Although capable of running other sets for support, I would like to mainly touch on one of Mew's new found roles.

The 6th generation has given Mew a defog buff as an addition to its already huge support move-pool.
It is one of only a select group of pokemon that can clear the field of both hazards and screens, then proceed to set up hazards for its own team. Hazard setting and removing makes up a crucial part of most good teams, and Mew can do both.

Mew's typing is its biggest downfall defensively, however he makes up for it with impressive 100/100/100 defenses and reliable recovery in the form of soft-boiled. He is capable of using will-o-wisp to cripple physical attackers, taunt to prevent set up or if an opening arises he can even pass boosts on to team mates.
The inclusion of Mew in a team allows for more versatility in team building and in my opinion is very worthy of an analysis for these reasons.

Mew may not be that popular at the moment, however we are still in the early days of the gen 6 meta-game. I expect to see him get increased usage as teams look for an alternative to other hazard setters and removers such as Donphan, Forretress, Empoleon, Tentacruel and Avalugg. (Can't think of any others that are close to being viable). With a reliable recovery option Mew already has an advantage over these pokemon. It is also beneficial to the user of Mew because they can bluff other sets should his usage become more common.

Another thing worth mentioning is that unlike many other defog candidates he is not weak to stealth rock. It is true however that he is weak to spikes and toxic spikes, but these two moves will see decreased usage due to the need to set up multiple layers. Players who try to set up multiple layers are obviously in danger of wasting too many turns due to the ease of using defog.

Mew fits this criteria:

• "fulfil a given defensive niche" (B rank criteria)
• "Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time." (A rank criteria)

Therefore I would like to see him at least ranked from B+ to A rank.

 

[myw]

Again, I am not claiming that Msaur has any major deficiency, but if we hold the standards strict than it just does those jobs which you claim to be did perfectly in a mediocre manner. No one denies Msaur to be good, but "not good enough" is our major arguement.

Also, Rotom-W does not gets A+ just as a wall, other A+ like Heatran and Latias are not entirely walls either. We don't really have a pure wall in the A+ rank so Msaur still outclasses every single other pure defensive pokeman being there, if that happens to be your argument.

It walls better than the next best things.
It has good offenses.
Where heatran and rotom have rocks and voltswitch, msaur has poisoning, sleep, and seeds.

Its a clear step up as a defensive Pokemon. What else could you want? Where are you seeing mediocrity?

Anyhow I'd agree on Rotom-H for B. On the topic of rotom, what do you think of Rotom-m?

Edit- saw Photofluid's new post. What you just said aren't flaws. 3Hkos mean nothing to a Pokemon with recovery. As has been said a million times, burn is not a big deal. And... Relies on offensive pressure? What? As opposed twhat?

 

[Photofluid]

It walls better than the next best things.
It has good offenses.
Where heatran and rotom have rocks and voltswitch, msaur has poisoning, sleep, and seeds.

Its a clear step up as a defensive Pokemon. What else could you want? Where are you seeing mediocrity?

Anyhow I'd agree on Rotom-H for B. On the topic of rotom, what do you think of Rotom-m?

Heatran and Rotom also have strong offensive present, and can pick up a scarf at any moment, Rotom even got trick for it, I think I have said somewhere else that there are no "pure" defensive pokemon in A+.

For other questions, the past 10 pages have provided sufficient answers.

Btw, for Rotom-M, well it is C at best. You lose your niche against fly type, and you are vunerable to fire and ice....

 

[Lazybeef]

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

You still walls a significant portion of the meta game, but all the arguements above are showing how Megasaur is not doing its job consistently(relying on offensive pressure, having to use recover frequently, most moves can still 3HKO, vulnerable against residue damage), still a lot more consistent than most other walls though, which is why I put it on A+.

Every pokemon except the ones with magic guard are vulnerable to residual damage. Venusaur less than most because 3 of the moves on its moveset heals it (giga drain/synthesis/leech seed). I once again reference the definition of S-rank: If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

 

[Colonel M]

and i thought some of the mods would know what we Pro S are talking about. No offense, but..

Mega slot pushed you for mega venu to A? is this a joke? The Mega slot cannot instantly prevent S ranking. That is rediculos. Remember the critera for S? being able to consistantly wall a large portion of the meta, be versitile (it has 4mms, so yes it can be versitile as you might be unsure on one or two of its moves unlike most pokemon.)and to have its flaws to be made up for by its pros. I see nothing to do with mega slots. Tbh, Mega Venus could either fit a stall team or a hyper offensive team to wall the main sweeper(s) threats. Tbh what other mega would you use on a stall team? Mega Luc doesnt fit a full stall team. As for a HO team, you dont need a mega to be your main sweeper. Things like Aegislash, Talonflame, ect fit the bill as magnificent sweepers that arent megas. You cant say a mega slot being takens is bad. There are few better mega options then mega venusaur, so dont say ooh dat bad cause another not as good mega could be used ooh.

I think if anything you don't understand my statement. So I will make it easier to read.

Every Mega has an opportunity cost.

Some Megas like Mega Lucario can easily overcome many of its opportunity costs.

Being in A tier does not mean Venusaur doesn't overcome a lot of the opportunity costs. Rather - it is still a very questionable choice for a Mega. And it is. When you have offensive brutes like Mega Pinsir and co. it is hard to completely erase Mega Venusaur when other walls like Mandibuzz and co. do not necessarily have such a steep opportunity cost behind it.

Coming from a person who used Mega Venusaur as a teammate with Gyarados Mega Venusaur is awesome. But it still can deny other potential Mega Pokemon that are offensively capable of crushing teams.

In short - Mega Venusaur is great, but a tank costing a Mega slot can be hard to justify when there are tanks that can do as well against variant threats without such a high cost associated with them.

 

[Homeslice]

Crobat for B Rank.
It's a fast de-fogger with a good stab in BB.I could talk more about it but it justifys itself.

Please, do talk more about it.
Having good stab in BB doesn't mean anything when your two stabs have horrible coverage together. Hitting four types overall for SE damage from STAB isn't good when you're as weak as Crobat. Just because it's a "fast defogger" doesn't mean it gets its job done. It's far too frail to defog more than once, so you have to guarantee the opponent's hazard setters are all dead and that's never a guarantee. What else does it do besides spam Taunt and U-Turn, use Defog? It's a waste of a defogger when it's so frail that almost anything with neutral coverage that's against it can KO it when it's defogging. It's almost like playing with 5 mons. Almost.

Crobat packs Brave Bird and has a higher attack than Talonflame. Taunt + BB threatens a lot of things, his typing and stats grant him acceptable bulk despite the SR weakness and he's even graced with Roost. Frankly he's far, far better than Noivern, Flying is a better offensive type than Dragon in this meta and unlike Noviern Crobat can spam him STAB without having to worry about it losing power. There is very little that Noivern can do better than Crobat aside from small niches like Trick and revenge killing Dragons. Crobat's STAB also hits most notable Sub users out there right now (baring Kyurem, which I'll admit Noivern is far better against), and those that it doesn't hit SE tend to be specially oriented like Gengar so he'll do more damage anyways. Crobat>Noivern. I'd say B-/B is a solid rank for Crobat, C is FAR too low.

4 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 103-123 (26.8 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 186-219 (48.4 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

No, you aren't hitting harder when you have to forego a Choice Band and have to give up atk EV's because you're that frail. Show you a calc without a Choice Band? Sure.

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 161-191 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You aren't hitting harder, and you're frail to the point you're giving up attacking stats as a scout. He doesn't have Roost, you have to use Defog/Taunt/Brave Bird/U-Turn if you want him to do what you're all saying he can do. If he gives up U-turn, he literally is a sitting duck and not this defogging scout he's supposed to be.

Did you just say Dragon is worse than flying
Noivern can spam DM at will. Crobat can't spam BB. There's only two fairies to reasonably worry about and there's a plethora of Steel types for Crobat to worry about (and Noivern to an extent). There's also Gengar, Noivern, just like Talonflame, can also use a Stat-boosting item to hit harder than Crobat. They're also two different types of attackers, and the whole point of Noivern is that he does the role of Infiltrator attacker much better.

Most notable Sub users? Can you give some examples? Most Sub users are Dragons and offensive mons that don't care if you're trying to taunt them because you'll be dead by the end of the turn. I can't even tell what you're saying by telling us Gengar is specially oriented, Gengar doesn't invest anything in bulk besides its last 4 EVs.

252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 330-388 (125.9 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 286-339 (109.1 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 220-261 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 231-273 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

That point made no sense when all of Noivern's realistic sets OHKO and Crobat's most common set doesn't. Noivern also has the same natural bulk as Crobat.

If you want to say Crobat is so high, you should probably decide what niche you want him to have (Fast Defogger, Attacker, or Scout) before you shoot out arguments for him.

 

[DaiGuren]

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

You still walls a significant portion of the meta game, but all the arguements above are showing how Megasaur is not doing its job consistently(relying on offensive pressure, having to use recover frequently, most moves can still 3HKO, vulnerable against residue damage), still a lot more consistent than most other walls though, which is why I put it on A+.

I don't see how that is a downside? If anything, it is an inherent advantage that lets MVenu be a wall.

 

[vonK]

I think if anything you don't understand my statement. So I will make it easier to read.

Every Mega has an opportunity cost.

Some Megas like Mega Lucario can easily overcome many of its opportunity costs.

Being in A tier does not mean Venusaur doesn't overcome a lot of the opportunity costs. Rather - it is still a very questionable choice for a Mega. And it is. When you have offensive brutes like Mega Pinsir and co. it is hard to completely erase Mega Venusaur when other walls like Mandibuzz and co. do not necessarily have such a steep opportunity cost behind it.

Coming from a person who used Mega Venusaur as a teammate with Gyarados Mega Venusaur is awesome. But it still can deny other potential Mega Pokemon that are offensively capable of crushing teams.

In short - Mega Venusaur is great, but a tank costing a Mega slot can be hard to justify when there are tanks that can do as well against variant threats without such a high cost associated with them.

There is barely any opportunity cost with Mega-Venusaur because there ARE NO OTHER DEFENSIVE MEGAS (except M-scizor, who is useful but who Msaur far outclases as a tank/wall). If you're running a Stall or Semi-Stall team you're not choosing between Mega Venusaur and Mega Lucario, Mega Venusaur is the obvious choice. Nothing can do half as good a job as it can in stall, and while you don't need it for Stall it taking up the Mega Slot is a none-issue.

Arguing that other Megas are better offensively is a terrible point, it's akin to saying Mega-Lucario doesn't deserve S because other Megas are better defensive pokemon.

 

[Colonel M]

There is barely any opportunity cost with Mega-Venusaur because there ARE NO OTHER DEFENSIVE MEGAS (except M-scizor, who is useful but who Msaur far outclases as a tank/wall). If you're running a Stall or Semi-Stall team you're not choosing between Mega Venusaur and Mega Lucario, Mega Venusaur is the obvious choice. Nothing can do half as good a job as it can in stall, and while you don't need it for Stall it taking up the Mega Slot is a none-issue.

Arguing that other Megas are better offensively is a terrible point, it's akin to saying Mega-Lucario doesn't deserve S because other Megas are better defensive pokemon.

In Semi-stall some people use cleaners that mesh well with stallish teams. And even stall teams can look onto other Megas like Mega Aggron and Mega Mawile as well as the aforementioned Mega Scizor. There is also Mega Charizard X who fits into semi-stall teams very well.

 

[myw]

Heatran and Rotom also have strong offensive present, and can pick up a scarf at any moment, Rotom even got trick for it, I think I have said somewhere else that there are no "pure" defensive pokemon in A+.

For other questions, the past 10 pages have provided sufficient answers.

Msaur has the option of being a strong offense. it could be pure too, if it needed to be.

And no. The last 10 pages Msaur is a restatement of 30 pages ago, and there were no clear arguments against it then either, that weren't refuted.
If you want to make one, do it well and clearly. Be in depth.