Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[KztxL7]

No, this is wrong. Outclassed mons should only be ranked if they have something over their opposition. Florgres has literally nothing useful over Sylveon. they have almost identical movepools, but sylveons is better offensively and it takes hits overall better. Florgres only should be considered over sylveon in doubles where its ability gets use, but even so Sylveon should still do better than it. We do not want to give people the idea that certain pokemon are OK to use when Florgres is NOT ok to use as it is outclassed in every single possible way by a single pokemon alone and it gets nothing over that pokemon.

Thats not what he said with what you quoted.

He said that outclassed does not equal not viable.

Not Viable is Articuno is OU. It has absolutely no business being used in OU because of its outright terrible typing, etc.

Outclassed is Florges.

Example: If Gamefreak chose to release another Water/Electric pokemon with Levitate tomorrow and it could do everything Rotom-W could do but better does that mean Rotom-W becomes no longer viable in OU? Considering how its performing now I believe we can safely say no.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Example: If Gamefreak chose to release another Water/Electric pokemon with Levitate tomorrow and it could do everything Rotom-W could do but better does that mean Rotom-W becomes no longer viable in OU? Considering how its performing now I believe we can safely say no.

Imo you're contradicting yourself there, if they would make a "better" Rotom-W then nobody would use the old, "inferior" Rotom-W anymore. You're just proving yourself wrong.

 

[KztxL7]

Thats not a contradiction.

Inferior does not mean unusable. That's two different things. If you get a better car than your old one, does that mean the old car is unusable, aka "not viable"? No.

Yes, we don't want players thinking Florges is on the same level as Sylveon when it does everything better but don't go putting it into people's head that it's unusable. Slippery slopes of misconceptions start like that.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Thats not a contradiction.
Inferior does not mean unusable. That's two different things. If you get a better car than your old one, does that mean the old car is unusable, aka "not viable"? No.

Give me one good reason to drive your old car when your new car is better in every single way.

 

[SergantGold]

Thats not a contradiction.

Inferior does not mean unusable. That's two different things. If you get a better car than your old one, does that mean the old car is unusable, aka "not viable"? No.

Yes, we don't want players thinking Florges is on the same level as Sylveon when it does everything better but don't go putting it into people's head that it's unusable. Slippery slopes of misconceptions start like that.

You have no reason to ever use it over Sylveon. If it has nothing at all over the single pokemon than we have no reason to rank it as it will only hurt people who think that that means that Florgres can be used over sylveon.

Give me one good reason to drive your old car when your new car is better in every single way.

.

This guy said it best

 

[DaiGuren]

Thats not a contradiction.

Inferior does not mean unusable. That's two different things. If you get a better car than your old one, does that mean the old car is unusable, aka "not viable"? No.

Yes. We don't want players thinking Florges is on the same level as Sylveon when it does everything better but don't go putting it into people's head that it's unusable. Slippery slopes of misconceptions start like that.

If we're looking at strict word definitions, something unviable is always inferior(outclassed), but something inferior is not automatically unviable, correct?

However, something that is inferior or outclassed is always made unviable due to the virtue of something doing its job better. Yes, Florges is viable in OU per se. However, seeing as a superior carbon copy of it exists(which is Sylveon), Florges is made inferior and by the nature of competitive pokemon, Florges is made unviable.

TL;DR Florges is viable in OU. However, the existence of Sylveon makes Florges an outclassed pokemon, therefore Florges becomes unviable in OU.

 

[6feetunder]

Do we really need to be getting into semantics arguments in a viability ranking thread?

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

You know...can't we just skip the Florges and Mega Venusaur arguments and just go to another Pokemon? I mean, I feel as if we're going in circles with some of the Florges arguments. Read the past pages for similar arguments, guys. Can we talk about other Pokemon? We can maintain Amoonguss arguments, we can talk Breloom, and we can even bring Slowking up in the mix because they're getting an OU Analysis. Let's talk about those?

 

[SergantGold]

I honestly think that 9/10 times AV Bro will be slightly better than AV King, as it will wall better with its superior physical bulk. But that's just my two cents.

Edit: I'm stupid Slowking gets dragon tail and Slowbro doesn't. I guess it will just be a question of wether or not you want dragon tail

 

[KztxL7]

Do we really need to be getting into semantics arguments in a viability ranking thread?

I'm pissy about semantics not just because of my focus on English but because this is how players/people start learning wrong things and misinformation about practically anything. I've seen it happen so many times in MMOs from when it starts from small things and eventually stretches further.

Especially from a leading site from Smogon where a lot of players will come to search for information on competitive play. When you're a site like that you need to be as precise as possible in your choice of words to cause the least possible amounts of misconceptions. There is a reason they have quality control and have people go through and correct/update the English in the previews/analysis.

Using two different words synonymously when they have two different meanings is a big problem. I'm not going to argue that about Sylveon vs. Florges. I know full well that Sylveon is better all ways to Florges but don't start using two words interchangeably when they have different meanings. Outclassed, lesser, inferior does not mean unusable, not viable. Simply use the first three words.

That's all I have to say.

 

[DaiGuren]

I honestly think that 9/10 times AV Bro will be slightly better than AV King, as it will wall better with its superior physical bulk. But that's just my two cents.

Edit: I'm stupid Slowking gets dragon tail and Slowbro doesn't. I guess it will just be a question of wether or not you want dragon tail

Aside from AV, what other viable sets does the bro have? I'm using the AV one but I want to know my options since I'm using Slowbro mainly for his resists.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Hmm, so to help drive the conversation away from Florges, how about that Crawdaunt? It got access to Aqua Jet finally which it much appreciates, as well as getting a buff to Crabhammer's Base Power, as well as Dragon Dance and STAB Knock Off in addition to Adaptability seems rather solid. However, with that "eh" speed of 55 and getting competition from other Physical Waters like Azumarill and Gyarados who can do a Physical role as well and with Gyara getting the ability to ME and bluff some sets while Azumarill has the coveted Fairy Type makes it seem like Crawdaunt would be B at best.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

I'm pissy about semantics not just because of my focus on English but because this is how players/people start learning wrong things and misinformation about practically anything. I've seen it happen so many times in MMOs from when it starts from small things and eventually stretches further.

Especially from a leading site from Smogon where a lot of players will come to search for information on competitive play. When you're a site like that you need to be as precise as possible in your choice of words to cause the least possible amounts of misconceptions. There is a reason they have quality control and have people go through and correct/update the English in the previews/analysis.

Using two different words synonymously when they have two different meanings is a big problem. I'm not going to argue that about Sylveon vs. Florges. I know full well that Sylveon is better all ways to Florges but don't start using two words interchangeably when they have different meanings. Outclassed, lesser, inferior does not mean unusable, not viable. Simply use the first three words.

That's all I have to say.

I agree florges is usable, but he isn't viable when compared to sylveon. Yes you can use florges In ou quite effectively, but no matter how well it performs, sylveon can always do it better

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I honestly think that 9/10 times AV Bro will be slightly better than AV King, as it will wall better with its superior physical bulk. But that's just my two cents.

Edit: I'm stupid Slowking gets dragon tail and Slowbro doesn't. I guess it will just be a question of wether or not you want dragon tail

I'm going to be the guy that finds Scald on Slowking making up for its lower Defense. Dragon Tail is a good phazing move, though. Reliable healing, a good way to have mixed defenses thanks to Scald making up for the lower defenses...personally I find Slowking on par with Slowbro, but that's just me. I'll be trying more of Slowking out later with the following set:

Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Sassy Nature
252 HP/4 Def/252 Sp. Def
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Dragon Tail
- Calm Mind or something...not sure about the last move.

I might also try a trapper set like this:

Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Sassy Nature
252 HP/4 Def/252 Sp. Def
- Block
- Slack Off
- Toxic
- Scald/Protect

I can see Slowking being a Specially Defensive Slowbro and Scald only makes the bulk better...but with Dragon Tail. I see Slowking having plenty of viability alongside Slowbro--anything wrong with that?

 

[Photofluid]

I'm pissy about semantics not just because of my focus on English but because this is how players/people start learning wrong things and misinformation about practically anything. I've seen it happen so many times in MMOs from when it starts from small things and eventually stretches further.

Especially from a leading site from Smogon where a lot of players will come to search for information on competitive play. When you're a site like that you need to be as precise as possible in your choice of words to cause the least possible amounts of misconceptions. There is a reason they have quality control and have people go through and correct/update the English in the previews/analysis.

Using two different words synonymously when they have two different meanings is a big problem. I'm not going to argue that about Sylveon vs. Florges. I know full well that Sylveon is better all ways to Florges but don't start using two words interchangeably when they have different meanings. Outclassed, lesser, inferior does not mean unusable, not viable. Simply use the first three words.

That's all I have to say.

Well, I am definitely not a good English speaker but I do want to point out one thing.

At a competitive level, viability is comparative, we define the viability of one by how optimal it is to be used. In this sense, perfectly inferior is equivalent to perfectly unusable in competitive terms.

So in this case, if we are trying to push the idea that Florges is viable, we are doing things wrong. Hence, it is better for us to mark Florges not viable than to explain why Florges is viable but should never be used in practice, which also happens to create less confusion if you want a bonus.

 

[Homeslice]

He's an easier argument to the Florges situation- it isn't getting an OU analysis. It's not getting ranked. Sorry.

ShadowMarioGalaxy64 Slowbro is generally better than King because of their typing. Water/Psychic is going to have an easier job walling common physical moves (fighting, fire, steel) than common special type moves (electric, grass, ghost)

Of course both the typings aren't that spectacular and Slowbro and Slowking have to struggle with Dark, Bug, Ghost, Electric, and Grass and it's not like those are all exactly uncommon.
Scald also isn't reliable, I'm not banking on a 30% chance to burn in a metagame where MegaLuke is running around.

 

[Star]

I personally think mega-gardevoir should be S-tier and Arcanine, who is not even considered OU, is A-tier. A hyper voice from modest mega-gardevoir can OHKO many pokemon, has psychic for posion types that try to resist fairy, and if you want you can even run Hyper Beam to OHKO pretty much anything that doesnt resist fairy, which is also an easy and very unexpected way to get rid of a Rotom-W even with max HP and max SpDef.

As for Arcanine, he is easily the most underrated pokemon of all time. Arcanine with intimidate is an amazing counter for Scizor and Aegislash, and also has enough bulk to switch into a Talonflame or Volcarona and KO them. He can even take an EQ from an Excadril (even without intimidate) and OHKO with CC or FB. He can also switch into a T-Tar and take a stone edge then OHKO with CC. And he has extremespeed, nuff said.

Mega Gardevoir is NOWHERE NEAR S rank. First of all Mega Gardevoir is revenge killed by just about everybody that is not weak to its STABS and has strong moves. Also it is incredibly easy to counter or check and should be B- rank at best. It loses to the majority of the top threats in OU such as Genesect. Also Hyper Beam is a TERRIBLE move for really any pokemon. It gives the opponent a free turn to take advantage of. You are literally saying "Would you like momentum now?" Arcanine is also NOWHERE NEAR A rank. First of all, Arcanine doesn't do jack shit to Mixed Aegislash. First turn King's Shield and your attack is halved when you Flare Blitz. Then Shadow Ball then Shadow Sneak if Shadow Ball did not OHKO and Arcanine is a goner. You say it counters Scizor. That means absolutely nothing as EVERY FIRE TYPE counters Scizor just fine. Also Arcanine is not going to be switching in to Tyranitar and Close Combating as Stone Edge is an easy OHKO from Mega TTar or the band set. The scarf set 2HKO's it. When you lose to 3 of the 4 Tyranitar sets on switch in, THAT IS NOT A COUNTER. All in all, your logic is terribly flawed. I didn't mean to rant but that post really needed to be refuted.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I personally think mega-gardevoir should be S-tier and Arcanine, who is not even considered OU, is A-tier. A hyper voice from modest mega-gardevoir can OHKO many pokemon, has psychic for posion types that try to resist fairy, and if you want you can even run Hyper Beam to OHKO pretty much anything that doesnt resist fairy, which is also an easy and very unexpected way to get rid of a Rotom-W even with max HP and max SpDef.

As for Arcanine, he is easily the most underrated pokemon of all time. Arcanine with intimidate is an amazing counter for Scizor and Aegislash, and also has enough bulk to switch into a Talonflame or Volcarona and KO them. He can even take an EQ from an Excadril (even without intimidate) and OHKO with CC or FB. He can also switch into a T-Tar and take a stone edge then OHKO with CC. And he has extremespeed, nuff said.

...

I uploaded this just for you:

Mega Gardevoir is NOWHERE NEAR S rank. First of all Mega Gardevoir is revenge killed by just about everybody that is not weak to its STABS and has strong moves. Also it is incredibly easy to counter or check and should be B- rank at best. It loses to the majority of the top threats in OU such as Genesect. Also Hyper Beam is a TERRIBLE move for really any pokemon. It gives the opponent a free turn to take advantage of. You are literally saying "Would you like momentum now?" Arcanine is also NOWHERE NEAR A rank. First of all, Arcanine doesn't do jack shit to Mixed Aegislash. First turn King's Shield and your attack is halved when you Flare Blitz. Then Shadow Ball then Shadow Sneak if Shadow Ball did not OHKO and Arcanine is a goner. You say it counters Scizor. That means absolutely nothing as EVERY FIRE TYPE counters Scizor just fine. Also Arcanine is not going to be switching in to Tyranitar and Close Combating as Stone Edge is an easy OHKO from Mega TTar or the band set. The scarf set 2HKO's it. When you lose to 3 of the 4 Tyranitar sets on switch in, THAT IS NOT A COUNTER. All in all, your logic is terribly flawed. I didn't mean to rant but that post really needed to be refuted.

This sums up about Mega Gardevoir. I don't want to go into detail about Arcanine. I doubt Arcanine is that much ahead of Entei. Maybe you should read that "We're only ranking Pokemon getting an OU Analysis" rule we posted...because Entei is getting one yet Arcanine isn't. Sorry, guy.

 

[rachet67]

As for Arcanine, he is easily the most underrated pokemon of all time. Arcanine with intimidate is an amazing counter for Scizor and Aegislash, and also has enough bulk to switch into a Talonflame or Volcarona and KO them. He can even take an EQ from an Excadril (even without intimidate) and OHKO with CC or FB. He can also switch into a T-Tar and take a stone edge then OHKO with CC. And he has extremespeed, nuff said.

Arcanine isn't getting an OU analysis and isn't eligible to be ranked. 'Nuf said.

And both sides need to stop arguing over Florges.
It did not receive an OU analysis. Therefore, it is not eligible to be ranked. There can be no argument proposing for it to be ranked until it receives an OU analysis.

This thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/florges.3489954/page-3) is not an OU analysis with Quality Check and everything. That is just a discussion thread.

 

[6feetunder]

wall of text

Dude. Just. Give. Up. Already. I seriously can't believe you're STILL pushing for Florges to get a rank.

The speed advantage is irrelevant (yippee you can outspeed... Skarmory?), and the special bulk difference is negligible. It does not make up for everything else you lose by running Florges over Sylveon.

 

[Pipotchi]

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 127-151 (35.2 - 41.9%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In this example, Sylveon takes about 2-3% less damage from physical attacks than Florges, making Sylveon better for taking physical hits.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 265-312 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 307-361 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think you need to find some better calcs to justify florges being better than sylveon, in particular you have to find some ones where relevant ou pokes can get a 2hko on sylveon (factoring in protect, so two leftover recoveries) but a 3hko on florges, or the bulk is somewhat negligible

 

[DaiGuren]

I ain't even gonna respond to Scytha's post, cause obviously he didn't understand mine. One last thing that I'm gonna say again though, is that pokemon are ranked according to how well they can do their role, not matchups. Matchups are only relevant when it interferes with your role(i.e. a sweeper with crappy STABs or a wall with crapton of weaknesses). Meta shifts still only affects how a pokemon can do their job. Taking your example, Salamence's main niche as a sweeper, Salamence's effectiveness as a sweeper diminished because it's previously almost-unresisted stab now gains a weakness wherein said STAB is ineffective. Keldeo's power as a sweeper diminished because of the weather changes as well as bp-nerfing.

 

[RotomPoison]

I really hope this will be the last Florges related post in this thread. The Speed advantage means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Also, for the one who posted the wall of text, please do what was said before and give up. Florges can not hit harder then Sylveon due to Hyper Voice passing through Subs (while Florges becomes even worse setup fodder) and gaining a Pixilate boost, technically a 117 BP STAB compared to Florges with 95. Florges is:

1. Weaker

2. Not as bulky

3. A worse cleric

4. Faster. But no one cares.

Stop the Florges discussion please, people are getting tired of it, or more likely already are.

I ain't even gonna respond to Scytha's post, cause obviously he didn't understand mine. One last thing that I'm gonna say again though, is that pokemon are ranked according to how well they can do their role, not matchups. Matchups are only relevant when it interferes with your role(i.e. a sweeper with crappy STABs or a wall with crapton of weaknesses). Meta shifts still only affects how a pokemon can do their job. Taking your example, Salamence's main niche as a sweeper, Salamence's effectiveness as a sweeper diminished because it's previously almost-unresisted stab now gains a weakness wherein said STAB is ineffective. Keldeo's power as a sweeper diminished because of the weather changes as well as bp-nerfing.

Example

Pokemon 1: 100/100/100/100/100/100 Water type Regenerator

Pokemon 2: 101/100/100/100/100/100 Water type Regenerator

Assuming they have no other differences, no one should ever use Pokemon 1

 

[RP2865]

did i just read that?

You dont understand a counter. A counter must be able to saftley switch in on a pokemon and prooceed to 2hko or ohko. Arcainine cant switch in on mixed aegis, the most common, it cant switch in on ttar as stone edge ruins it hard and even OHKOS with band , but it does counter scizor. Oh yeah, every fire type counters scizor.

Mega gard is just, no. Hyperbeam just give the opponent momentum. :/ Plus is gard fails to OHKO, oh dear its practicly dead. I dont see any place for either of those anywhere above B-. ANyway arcanine isnt getting an ou analisis.

I think mega gardevoir is a b personally, partially due to
A. less popular moves like destiny bond, heal bell, and will o wisp
B. underrated special bulk
Please ignore what was said about hyper beam, that is for fun battles strictly.

I totally agree, though, that Arcanine doesn't deserve an analysis. It just isn't unique enough.

 

[Schpoonman]

Did any more discussion on Entei come up? I didn't see any definitive say whether he was being ranked, or where.