You are absolutely right. REAL TRICK ROOM TEAM COMPETITIVE TRAINERS don't give 2 S*%# about priority. Real trick room teams trainers have pokemon build around pokemon that can take a blow and return the favor with blowing out that pokemon like a land mine.
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Other Trick Room Playstyle
- Thread starter Katakiri
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You are absolutely right. REAL TRICK ROOM TEAM COMPETITIVE TRAINERS don't give 2 S*%# about priority. Real trick room teams trainers have pokemon build around pokemon that can take a blow and return the favor with blowing out that pokemon like a land mine.
Sorry but that tactic has been bad since generation 5. You can't "waste" TR setters anymore like you could 4th gen. You have to rely on resistances and type synergy to get your sweepers in. The only exception is a pokemon with Healing Wish, since that's pretty much a 1 for 1 trade that gives your sweepers a second chance to sweep. The only pokemon that's slow enough to pull it off is Musharna(Audino too, but it can't hit anything).
Reuniclus is the best TR setter in the game because it doubles as sweeper late-game. It remains a win-con against stall, doesn't care about hazards(since you most likely will not be running a Spinner or a Defogger), and puts less pressure on your sweepers to do their job.
After that, they brought in a conkeldurr that revenge killed. . .WITH A MACH PUNCH! So according to you, sacrificing your reuniclus was worth the 1 turn my opponent got to take advantage of trick room? No wonder trick room teams never caught on.
I just showed a situation where arguably the best trick room setter got made almost irrelevant by arguably the worst priority user, and I'd be happy to do it again (once I fight another trick room team, I don't see them very often. Maybe because I don't use the frail pokemon that TR actually works on).
And we can't really stop talking about priority, because you've made a pretty big misconception. Priority users typically have low to moderate speed (Talonflame's the big exception, but most need priority because their speed isn't adequate), and they're most often used on teams that have a tendency to get out sped, not teams that already have huge investment in the speed tier (not that fast'n'frail teams don't use priority, every team needs an answer to scarfers and other priority users). I usually see Talonflame paired up with slow, bulkier mons so they cover lots of ground between them. Priority is a HUGE thing to consider when building a trick room team (something I don't think should exist due to how improbable keeping trick room up is. Maybe a trick room core, but not a team), and any discussion of Trick Room strategies has to include how you intend bypass priority users without wasting the turn you used to set up.
As for the strategies to bypass defensive teams, I'm not sure what to say. Whenever I've used trick room, I've run a hybrid of Reuniclus's two sets (calm mind and trick room) so I can set up, and then use trick room to remove major threats, but the amount of free turns that gives my opponent can sometimes come back to bite me.
We've all spent long periods of time thinking about pokemon. Its important to remember that Reuniclus' style of trick room is completely different to Bronzong, similar to how swords dance is different to baton passing. Reuniclus is using his trick room as the equivalent of an agility boost- you use agility when you can easily break through the pokemon which is in front of you whilst taking negligible damage, so as to also be able to sweep through other pokemon afterwards. He's not using it to set up his team, he's using it to extend his sweeping potential.
Compare this to Bronzong's trick room which must then be passed to an ally, similar to a supportive tailwind. Its not objectively worse but its completely different.
You could have a pokemon which puts up trick room for reuniclus but then you have to start building a team around it. What makes reuniclus special is that as well as being a bulky special attacker, he can also fit the trick room in his moveset to be a solo user (and use it to lower the possibility of revenge killing) without you wasting more than one teamslot on it. It depends on whether you want a team revolving around trick room or not, and usually most people tend to avoid it. Reuniclus is definitely not an objectively worse user of trick room
Okay lets do some math
Turn 1 reuniclus sets up trick room (Trick Room count: 5)
Turn 2 reunclus uses psychic (Trick Room count: 4)
Turn 3 reuniclus dies and conkeldurr is switched in (Trick Room Count: 3)
Turn 4 Conkeldurr uses mach punch (Trick Room count: 2)
Turn 5 The hell if I know
Unless the opponent had a better option than staying in with Reuniclus which you've given me no indication of I stand by my argument. It was a better move than leaving a 15% reuniclus alive with no Trick Room to protect it, also we are missing a turn of trick room so I am going to assume the Conkeldurr did a little more than just kill the Arcanine.
Sure priority can hurt and sometimes it can kill but Trick Room teams because their defensive bulk they are able to shrug off 1 or even 2 priority moves even from the strongest users. The real fear in Trick Room teams is priority users who set up, Belly Drum Azumarill and Mega Lucario scare the crap out of me and should be legitimate concerns to most Trick Room teams.
Most other bulky and non bulky priority users (Talonflame, Scizor, Azumarill (Sometimes)) carry choice bands and use priority to revenge kill with significant power. If you know what priority a specific threat carries (Brave Bird, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet respectively) you can switch an appropriate counter take a NVE or neutral attack and live with your significant bulk and threaten them out. Sure in the face of Priority, Trick Room teams won't set up Trick Room but this doesn't make priority the end all be all to Trick Room. Most priority users are bulky but that doesn't mean they're invincible and when banded are significantly more vulnerable to intelligent players. And if you happen to have a Trick Room setter who resists the banded priority you have now set up Trick Room up with very minimal cost due to the opponent being locked into that NVE priority. Gourgeist for instance can switch in on any fighting or water priority and threaten to burn the assailant if it chooses to stay in or set up Trick Room. While at times priority can be an issue and can potentially sweep a team I don't feel that it is threatening enough that it makes Trick Room irrelevant and time would be better spent finding solutions to teams just simply stalling out Trick Room with smart switches and offensive pressure.
Calm Mind Trick Room Reuniclus (I use him too) may be part of the solution but a stall team carries counters such as specially defensive Ttar who can pursuit trap Reuniclus to death. Reuniclus get worn down way to easily by a wide variety of mons for it to be a 1 Pokemon solution to defensive teams.
My bad on the math, and I didn't write down what happened after the mach punch (this was before I realized I could just save a link to the replay [I'm new to simulators, give me a break!]), but I don't think it was game changing
252+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 128-152 (30.1 - 35.8%) -- 33.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar: 546-645 (135.1 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm more worried about stall teams that like protect and substitute. The best solution to those I could come up with is Calm Mind Sylveon with Hyper Voice, but I'm open to suggestions
I wouldn't worry too much about Ttar against Reuniclus
252+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 128-152 (30.1 - 35.8%) -- 33.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar: 546-645 (135.1 - 159.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm more worried about stall teams that like protect and substitute. The best solution to those I could come up with is Calm Mind Sylveon with Hyper Voice, but I'm open to suggestions
4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
forgot the sand bro. Plus the probability of it missing...
Ouch! That's what I get for being lazy. Anyway, you still out damage him, even if you only have a 12% chance to OHKO after factoring in the miss. Ttar's real threat is being able to waste a turn by switching in on psychic, so that's where you have to get good at predicting. Imagine how pissed your opponent would be if they switched their Gengar thinking you'd definitely go for psychic or shadow ball or somthing, and their Tyranitar faints because of it. Almost as mad as I'd be if I did go for the psychic and they switched in Tyranitar, or I predicted the switch and they kept Gengar. Aren't predictions fun?
Also, in addition to Hyper Voice Sylveon buffing up on protect and hitting through substitute, there's also Boomburst Exploud, but I'd still like to discuss other anti-stall options
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Exploud as I've shown is viable in trick room and loves when foes waste time setting up subs. On the physical side Skill Link Mega Heracross can break a sub and still deal damage. Protect... well there's not much we can do about that unless there is some incredible feint user or Gamefreak buffs feint (lol never gonna happen) Fortunately protect is usually incredibly predictable in trick room: they're going to use it as often as possible sweepers and setters with buffing moves can use it to their advantage.(mega-mawile and Heracross would love a free swords dance turn. Reuniclus would be very happy to get a free calm mind boost) Protect still blows when you're trying to TR sweep but it reveals a lot about an opponents set because if its a mon like Heatran you can immediatly know its a toxic stall variant same thing with gliscor (porygon2 is so fun to use against gliscor lol.)
I think you mean Exploud ;). I think Sylveon's speed tier is too high for me to be motivated to use it in Trick Room, I'm not smart enough to factor in getting outslowed.
Man, what is with me and the stupid mistakes tonight? I know I'm tired, but this is ridiculous. Anyway, Sylveon's only got 60 base speed, the slowest eeveelution and with the right investment(ie, no investment), slower than just about everything except the typical trick room abusers. Its more than slow enough to sweep with trick room and its more than bulky enough (specially) to be a threat without it. Thanks for mentioning the Skill Link though, just not sure if I'll want to use MHeracross over MAmpharos.
Oh well I guess I made the dumb mistake this time. Yeah base 60 is definately slow enough to be usable and it gets trick room. I'm gonna have to use sylveon now fairy is a very good complement to other Trick Room setters.
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Those Reuniclus vs T-tar calcs are pretty useless. Most T-Tar are running special defensive investments and ass vest is a very popular item for him.
I think one of the posts on the first page by Lee is really important to understanding how to make a successful tr team.
Stealth Rock is a serious problem, as Lee said, because it's so hard to find the time to set it. I know this is kinda blasphemous, but maybe it's more of a detriment to try and fit a viable SR setter on a Trick Room team than it is to use another poke that adds offensive/defensive merit to the team. There are very few SR setters that I would want to run on a trick room team and starts to pigeon hole you.
A serious lack of good offensive setters is tough on most teams, and worse yet is the difficulty most setters have in creating momentum once TR is up. I'm very interested in looking into setters and sweepers that have access to volt-turn, easing prediction and giving setters more safe switch ins to activate another room.
So far Whimsicott has proven very interesting, even after I slapped myself on the forehead for forgetting TR's -7 priority. Encore is a great way to regain momentum, and memento gives a suicide option to give maximum turns under TR for a sweep when whimsi has gotten low enough on health to no longer be of use. What i love the most is that u-turn. Against offensive teams you get a fast u-turn under TR to scurry away and take the hit better and against slower teams you get the "slow" turn under TR giving something a free switch. Grass/Fairy also provides some pretty nice resistances for a TR team, and the weaknesses are pretty easy to pray upon with common trick room abusers.
I think part of the problem with TR is that it's getting very predictable in what each pokemon is going to use. Finding new pokemon that mesh with existing methods of using TR seems extremely important to me in terms of pushing TR's success. One thought I've had is to push the boundaries on the speed tiers thought needed to be a good TR abuser. I'm looking into pokemon in the base 80-100 range. What this allows are pokemon that are still typically out sped by most aggressive pokemon, but have the speed to beat most defensive pokemon outside of TR. This could allow for more flexible play against the defensive teams TR teams struggle against the most. Pokemon like Kyurem-B (who is one of the best pokemon against defensive cores right now, and has the bulk to take mach punch/bullet punch even without hp investment), Darmanitan (I drool at Life Orb+Sheer Force, and a very useful u-turn), Krookodile(moxie is an awesome ability to have under TR), Mamoswine (maybe not the best idea since it's pooped on by every priority move, but ground/ice stab is so deadly) are very interesting to me.
And what about trappers? okay dugtrio is out for some very obvious reasons, but Magnezone and Gothitelle have the right speed. Not allowing double switches seems wonderful for maintaining momentum under TR.
Mixed attacking, and surprise coverage are what I've had the most success with for softening up a team in the middle game. Things like mega-heracross are great under TR, but can't lure for shit. Mixed Kecleon with ice beam/fire blast to take care of common physical walls has brought me a surprising amount of success. Anyone have some good mixed attackers not mentioned in the OP that have been working for them? IMO lures with strong coverage are key to TR's success, more than any other play style because of how much momentum you need to maintain.
Sorry this is a bit all over the place, I just got excited to post about TR. I love the style even with all of its faults
I think one of the posts on the first page by Lee is really important to understanding how to make a successful tr team.
Stealth Rock is a serious problem, as Lee said, because it's so hard to find the time to set it. I know this is kinda blasphemous, but maybe it's more of a detriment to try and fit a viable SR setter on a Trick Room team than it is to use another poke that adds offensive/defensive merit to the team. There are very few SR setters that I would want to run on a trick room team and starts to pigeon hole you.
A serious lack of good offensive setters is tough on most teams, and worse yet is the difficulty most setters have in creating momentum once TR is up. I'm very interested in looking into setters and sweepers that have access to volt-turn, easing prediction and giving setters more safe switch ins to activate another room.
So far Whimsicott has proven very interesting, even after I slapped myself on the forehead for forgetting TR's -7 priority. Encore is a great way to regain momentum, and memento gives a suicide option to give maximum turns under TR for a sweep when whimsi has gotten low enough on health to no longer be of use. What i love the most is that u-turn. Against offensive teams you get a fast u-turn under TR to scurry away and take the hit better and against slower teams you get the "slow" turn under TR giving something a free switch. Grass/Fairy also provides some pretty nice resistances for a TR team, and the weaknesses are pretty easy to pray upon with common trick room abusers.
I think part of the problem with TR is that it's getting very predictable in what each pokemon is going to use. Finding new pokemon that mesh with existing methods of using TR seems extremely important to me in terms of pushing TR's success. One thought I've had is to push the boundaries on the speed tiers thought needed to be a good TR abuser. I'm looking into pokemon in the base 80-100 range. What this allows are pokemon that are still typically out sped by most aggressive pokemon, but have the speed to beat most defensive pokemon outside of TR. This could allow for more flexible play against the defensive teams TR teams struggle against the most. Pokemon like Kyurem-B (who is one of the best pokemon against defensive cores right now, and has the bulk to take mach punch/bullet punch even without hp investment), Darmanitan (I drool at Life Orb+Sheer Force, and a very useful u-turn), Krookodile(moxie is an awesome ability to have under TR), Mamoswine (maybe not the best idea since it's pooped on by every priority move, but ground/ice stab is so deadly) are very interesting to me.
And what about trappers? okay dugtrio is out for some very obvious reasons, but Magnezone and Gothitelle have the right speed. Not allowing double switches seems wonderful for maintaining momentum under TR.
Mixed attacking, and surprise coverage are what I've had the most success with for softening up a team in the middle game. Things like mega-heracross are great under TR, but can't lure for shit. Mixed Kecleon with ice beam/fire blast to take care of common physical walls has brought me a surprising amount of success. Anyone have some good mixed attackers not mentioned in the OP that have been working for them? IMO lures with strong coverage are key to TR's success, more than any other play style because of how much momentum you need to maintain.
Sorry this is a bit all over the place, I just got excited to post about TR. I love the style even with all of its faults
Aww another who sees Kecleon's trolling potential. In 5th gen UU I used to use a hilarious double TrickScarf Room lead Kecleon.
Half of Trick Room is trying to surprise your opponent with unknown coverage that wrecks defensive cores. Thats how you can get rid of counters to your main Trick Room Sweepers.
Eelektross is an awesome at this and is just all around great Trick Room mon. Levitate gives it zero weaknesses. It has excellent 115/105 mixed stats (Greater than Abomasnows on both sides with a life orb) with coverage mons would die for: Aqua Tail, Fire Punch, Giga Drain, Grass Knot, Drain Punch, Flamethrower, Signal Beam, Rock Slide, Dragon Claw, Wild Charge, Superpower, Knock Off, Crunch, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch AND U-turn. WTF this thing even gets acrobatics really Game Freak how the hell can an Eel do acrobatics. This thing is incredibly unpredictable and can be built to cover just about anything you want both on the physical and special side.
Yeah Ogami, you touched upon the point that I was working towards in my previous post before I got cut off. That is that the main problem encountered by Trick Room teams is priority (lol jk could you imagine if I actually said that). No, the main problem is a lack of tactical flexibility and diversity. All of those TR setters and TR sweepers come at the expense of hazards, hazard removal, phazing, status moves, clerics, Trick and just about every other tactical luxury that you'd consider on a standard team. As a result, a Trick Room team is very linear and it's far harder to react to a momentum loss or an unforeseen circumstance than it is for other teams. That is the main obstacle you'll encounter in building and playing with a Trick Room team.
Setters like the Whimsicott you mentioned are step in the right direction (I heavily advocated TR Whimsicott in the 5th Generation equivalent of this very thread) as she provides the tactical flexibility of Prankster Encore/Memento and U-turn which are a heap more helpful than 'traditional' setters like Porygon2 and Dusclops.
I wish that were the case but it's a cruel irony that TR teams need entry hazards more than most. It is the standard reaction for a player to attempt to switch around to stall out Trick Room turns and then go on the offensive on the turn it runs out. Entry hazards make this a little tougher to do.
As for using faster Pokemon...ehhh, it's a tough one. Sure, a minimum speed MegaGarchomp is gonna 'outslow' the majority of Pokemon but at 170 Spe you risk being outran by the very walls that switch in to counter you. Hippowdon should not be moving before Garchomp, nor should Swampert, Jellicent, Aegislash or any other mons with less than 65 base Speed. I feel that you wanna shoot for at least <140 Spe as that puts you slower than Blissey, Quiet Aegislash and the majority of walls. Mega-Heracross reaches 139 so I'd certainly consider him...anything faster would need to bring something particularly good to the team I feel.
Of course, outslowing walls leads me to my next gripe. Something that has always bugged me is Trick Room vs Stall match-ups. For the TR player, you have one of the worst match-ups in Pokemon history. Boosting mons are typically terrible on TR teams but if you don't pack any you will just roll over and die to stall 99% of the time. Not a fun match-up to have.
Setters like the Whimsicott you mentioned are step in the right direction (I heavily advocated TR Whimsicott in the 5th Generation equivalent of this very thread) as she provides the tactical flexibility of Prankster Encore/Memento and U-turn which are a heap more helpful than 'traditional' setters like Porygon2 and Dusclops.
Ogami said:
I wish that were the case but it's a cruel irony that TR teams need entry hazards more than most. It is the standard reaction for a player to attempt to switch around to stall out Trick Room turns and then go on the offensive on the turn it runs out. Entry hazards make this a little tougher to do.
As for using faster Pokemon...ehhh, it's a tough one. Sure, a minimum speed MegaGarchomp is gonna 'outslow' the majority of Pokemon but at 170 Spe you risk being outran by the very walls that switch in to counter you. Hippowdon should not be moving before Garchomp, nor should Swampert, Jellicent, Aegislash or any other mons with less than 65 base Speed. I feel that you wanna shoot for at least <140 Spe as that puts you slower than Blissey, Quiet Aegislash and the majority of walls. Mega-Heracross reaches 139 so I'd certainly consider him...anything faster would need to bring something particularly good to the team I feel.
Of course, outslowing walls leads me to my next gripe. Something that has always bugged me is Trick Room vs Stall match-ups. For the TR player, you have one of the worst match-ups in Pokemon history. Boosting mons are typically terrible on TR teams but if you don't pack any you will just roll over and die to stall 99% of the time. Not a fun match-up to have.
acestriker19: Eelektross is right on the money. I can't believe I forgot about him. That coverage is just stupid. Resisting both bullet punch, but more importantly brave bird is awesome, especially because I like Whimsicott as my main setter. YES.
Also, trickscarf on a tr setter is interesting to me. Could be pretty risky, but I like it for the damage trickscarf does to walls we all hate.
Lee: Right on the money again, love it. Tactical flexibility is such a lovely and concise way to describe what trick room teams really want for. Looking for ways to add tactical plays to a tr team seems like a good challenge to try. I've been thinking about trying to use ststus, in particluar wow, on TR teams. It would definitely be unexpected coming from a tr team, and could help wear down threats and ease the life of your setters. This might slow things down too much, but it's worth a shot.
As for the speed issue, I am definitely going to test out specially biased kyurem-b. He scares most slow walls anyways because of coverage, and has such devastating stats offensively and defensively. Trick room allowing him to invest heavily in hp, attack and special attack all at once is very intriguing to me. He brings the right qualities to the table to mitigate the speed issue imo, but that is all theory. I'll get back with results as soon as possible.
God, the stealth rock issue. I know you're right, I just don't want you to be. I think it might be a good idea to compile a list of pokemon that can reliably set SR for a trick room team. Offensive pokemon that cause switches and have good/decent defensive typing and bulk seem more ideal than putting sr on a trick room setter. Laying SR and TR consecutively gives your opponent plenty of time to screw you over, not to mention there are very few pokemon that can do both and are actually good on TR teams.
What comes to mind immediately:
Heatran
Tyranitar
Rhyperior
Bronzong (sort of, but with TR and SR you really limit its offensive capabilities)
Aggron
man i'm not that creative. Any thoughts?
Edit: one more thought on the tenants of a good tr team. I hate defensive TR setters. I think those need to stop. They suck up momentum and most do a pretty crappy job of abusing the TR you set with them. The only one I've ever liked is Porygon2, because trace gives flexibility and download gives the chance for immediate power.
Also, trickscarf on a tr setter is interesting to me. Could be pretty risky, but I like it for the damage trickscarf does to walls we all hate.
Lee: Right on the money again, love it. Tactical flexibility is such a lovely and concise way to describe what trick room teams really want for. Looking for ways to add tactical plays to a tr team seems like a good challenge to try. I've been thinking about trying to use ststus, in particluar wow, on TR teams. It would definitely be unexpected coming from a tr team, and could help wear down threats and ease the life of your setters. This might slow things down too much, but it's worth a shot.
As for the speed issue, I am definitely going to test out specially biased kyurem-b. He scares most slow walls anyways because of coverage, and has such devastating stats offensively and defensively. Trick room allowing him to invest heavily in hp, attack and special attack all at once is very intriguing to me. He brings the right qualities to the table to mitigate the speed issue imo, but that is all theory. I'll get back with results as soon as possible.
God, the stealth rock issue. I know you're right, I just don't want you to be. I think it might be a good idea to compile a list of pokemon that can reliably set SR for a trick room team. Offensive pokemon that cause switches and have good/decent defensive typing and bulk seem more ideal than putting sr on a trick room setter. Laying SR and TR consecutively gives your opponent plenty of time to screw you over, not to mention there are very few pokemon that can do both and are actually good on TR teams.
What comes to mind immediately:
Heatran
Tyranitar
Rhyperior
Bronzong (sort of, but with TR and SR you really limit its offensive capabilities)
Aggron
man i'm not that creative. Any thoughts?
Edit: one more thought on the tenants of a good tr team. I hate defensive TR setters. I think those need to stop. They suck up momentum and most do a pretty crappy job of abusing the TR you set with them. The only one I've ever liked is Porygon2, because trace gives flexibility and download gives the chance for immediate power.
Heatran while it is an excellent mon its offensive coverage has always been terrible. At best a special set can run Fire, Steel, Rock (lol Ancientpower) and/or Ground which is walled by Rotom-W #1 on the usage charts and Lati@s along with it. Rhyperior is always great in Trick Room STAB Edgequake plus megahorn is a viable movepool with good coverage Rhyperior has amazing physical defense and a favorable matchup on a lot of common OU threats (Aegislash, Talonflame, Dragonite) . Aggron feels viable but I'd be tempted just to choice band him and spam Head Smash with no recoil thanks to Rock Head.
Getting the rocks up isn't the problem though, it is keeping them up. I understand rocks are vital to breaking any defensive team but being forced to both spinblock and set up Trick Room is a burden I cannot envision any Ghost-type setter being able to bear with the challenge of things like Excadrill and Mega-Blastoise in OU unless it had ZERO offensive presence such as Dusclops. Defogging isn't really a worry for Trick Room teams as the opponent will probably have set more or an equal amount of hazards as you so at least thats good.
Xatu, Dusknoir, and Gardevoir make great Trick Room deliverers.
Magic Bounce prevents taunt and other status issues.
Cursepert makes a fucking amazing combo STILL to this generation. (Been running it since Generation IV)
Empoleon, Clawitzer, Tyranitar all love Trick Room as well.
Keep in mind these are pokemon I use and ones that I have had success with.
Magic Bounce prevents taunt and other status issues.
Cursepert makes a fucking amazing combo STILL to this generation. (Been running it since Generation IV)
Empoleon, Clawitzer, Tyranitar all love Trick Room as well.
Keep in mind these are pokemon I use and ones that I have had success with.
Mega-Gardevoir is a pretty boss offensive Trick Room user. 100 base Spe is a little high...the likes of Skarmory 'outslow you' but Pixelate Hyper Voices from 165 base SpA put a lot of pressure on the opponent and is about 20%~ more powerful than a Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic. Furthermore, Gardevoir has access to Destiny Bond which has eye-wateringly beautiful synergy with the previous two attacks. In the final slot you can run a coverage attack.
As an offensive partner, Rhyperior can jump in on a lot of the stuff that threatens Gardevoir such as Talonflame, Heatran and other Fire types...I suspect there's a better partner out there but I've not had time to think of one yet.
As an offensive partner, Rhyperior can jump in on a lot of the stuff that threatens Gardevoir such as Talonflame, Heatran and other Fire types...I suspect there's a better partner out there but I've not had time to think of one yet.
and if your opponent just uses protect?
Calm mind is there for when I predict the protect and don't have to waste a turn attacking. makes them less likely to use it again. Between Calm Mind and Hyper Voice, one stalling move is made irrelevant, and the other is set up bait. I agree that using Calm Mind under TR is a pretty stupid move under most circumstances, but not when the whole point is to beat stall mons. Its not a perfect solution, but its the best I could come up with as feint is such a terrible move
I wrote the analysis for this bad boy so I hope it's fine that I post this set here.
Slowbro @ Life Orb | Regenerator
Quiet | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Surf / Ice Beam / Fire Blast / Trick Room
Despite its middling Special Attack, Offensive Trick Room Slowbro is a really nice Trick Room setter and cleaner. A Water typing and access to Regenerator differentiate it from other setters and allow it to constantly set up Trick Room and jump out as the match progresses. Through the use of a Life Orb, Slowbro's low starting power is enhanced, and it doesn't need to worry about the recoil due to Regenerator healing excess damage that it might have incurred. Slowbro can also take advantage of Regenerator's passive healing through double switching so that it can be preserved for later.
You can make alterations to the set such as Psyshock or Psychic over Fire Blast, but in the end I guess it's mostly just personal preference. Interestingly, Oblivious's new mechanics make users of the ability immune to the effects of Taunt. Because of this, Oblivious could potentially (haven't tested it) work over Regenerator so that you have a TR setter that doesn't care about being Taunted by the likes of Deo-S and such.
Good partners for this set are obviously other Pokemon that can take advantage of Trick Room. In particular, I like pairing Slowbro with Sheer Force Conkeldurr as they have decent type synergy and the latter can really destroy in Trick Room.
Slowbro @ Life Orb | Regenerator
Quiet | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Surf / Ice Beam / Fire Blast / Trick Room
Despite its middling Special Attack, Offensive Trick Room Slowbro is a really nice Trick Room setter and cleaner. A Water typing and access to Regenerator differentiate it from other setters and allow it to constantly set up Trick Room and jump out as the match progresses. Through the use of a Life Orb, Slowbro's low starting power is enhanced, and it doesn't need to worry about the recoil due to Regenerator healing excess damage that it might have incurred. Slowbro can also take advantage of Regenerator's passive healing through double switching so that it can be preserved for later.
You can make alterations to the set such as Psyshock or Psychic over Fire Blast, but in the end I guess it's mostly just personal preference. Interestingly, Oblivious's new mechanics make users of the ability immune to the effects of Taunt. Because of this, Oblivious could potentially (haven't tested it) work over Regenerator so that you have a TR setter that doesn't care about being Taunted by the likes of Deo-S and such.
Good partners for this set are obviously other Pokemon that can take advantage of Trick Room. In particular, I like pairing Slowbro with Sheer Force Conkeldurr as they have decent type synergy and the latter can really destroy in Trick Room.
Alright after a handful of games, about 10 (I know very small sample size) kyurem-black has started to prove his worth under trick room. I'm questioning a couple members of my team, but Kyurem's bulk and coverage have proved quite effective under trick room. Here's the spread I'm using in case anyone would like to try it out. If you do, please share any results as I'd love to know. I know this isn't necessarily a thread for sets, it seems like a fine thing to discuss in terms of exploring the playstyle to me
Kyurem-Black@Expert Belt
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 196 Hp / 60 Att / 252 S.Att
Nature: Brave
-Fusion Bolt
-Earth Power
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power Fire
The attack evs and positive nature with expert belt are to ohko azumarill after rocks. Even though most azu will outspeed you in the room, I thought it would be a good benchmark when they get cheeky and try to switch in on ice beam, and when trick room isn't up. When trick room is up you can bet your ass they're going to play rough, so that can be used to your advantage. HP Fire is for genesect, scizor and ferrothorn pretty much. after M scizor mega evolves you outslow him, but scizor will almost always go for the bullet punch, or possibly swords dance. Ferro is annoying, but he can't hurt you too much with gyro doing significantly less damage with min speed and added bulk.
Expert belt is for its ability to provide power and flexibility without compromising bulk. With a rocks weakness and the fact that he will take a hit or two, it seems like the best option. This guy loves lunar dance/ healing wish support, as it's quite hard for most opponents to kill Kyurem-B twice and he's really effective at wearing down most of his own counters.
Oh and this guy takes less than fifty percent damage from an m-luc's bullet punch on anything but the highest damage roll with those 196 Hp evs. This guy is a monster.
Lee: Wait, m-gard gets destiny bond. I just pooped myself a little. I love d-bond on trick room teams. My current mega is mawile, who brings some pretty nice things to the table, but I'll have to look into that. That huge hyper voice is really tempting too, even though I try to stay away from dedicated special attackers on tr teams. What
Labyrinthine: I love slowbro, I really do. One of my favorite mons, but I think he makes a pretty crappy setter. Many times he can do his job admirably, but he always wants a fourth attacking move and misses out on the coverage. It's too easy to wall slowbro and make him do nothing, which sucks when you're trying to go on the offensive in the room. I've tried him plenty on tr teams and he's walled by so much. With your set even greninja walls him. Greninja.
Anyone have any good tactics/ or mon for fighting gliscor with Trick Room? That thing is a pain in my ass.
Kyurem-Black@Expert Belt
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 196 Hp / 60 Att / 252 S.Att
Nature: Brave
-Fusion Bolt
-Earth Power
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power Fire
The attack evs and positive nature with expert belt are to ohko azumarill after rocks. Even though most azu will outspeed you in the room, I thought it would be a good benchmark when they get cheeky and try to switch in on ice beam, and when trick room isn't up. When trick room is up you can bet your ass they're going to play rough, so that can be used to your advantage. HP Fire is for genesect, scizor and ferrothorn pretty much. after M scizor mega evolves you outslow him, but scizor will almost always go for the bullet punch, or possibly swords dance. Ferro is annoying, but he can't hurt you too much with gyro doing significantly less damage with min speed and added bulk.
Expert belt is for its ability to provide power and flexibility without compromising bulk. With a rocks weakness and the fact that he will take a hit or two, it seems like the best option. This guy loves lunar dance/ healing wish support, as it's quite hard for most opponents to kill Kyurem-B twice and he's really effective at wearing down most of his own counters.
Oh and this guy takes less than fifty percent damage from an m-luc's bullet punch on anything but the highest damage roll with those 196 Hp evs. This guy is a monster.
Lee: Wait, m-gard gets destiny bond. I just pooped myself a little. I love d-bond on trick room teams. My current mega is mawile, who brings some pretty nice things to the table, but I'll have to look into that. That huge hyper voice is really tempting too, even though I try to stay away from dedicated special attackers on tr teams. What
Labyrinthine: I love slowbro, I really do. One of my favorite mons, but I think he makes a pretty crappy setter. Many times he can do his job admirably, but he always wants a fourth attacking move and misses out on the coverage. It's too easy to wall slowbro and make him do nothing, which sucks when you're trying to go on the offensive in the room. I've tried him plenty on tr teams and he's walled by so much. With your set even greninja walls him. Greninja.
Anyone have any good tactics/ or mon for fighting gliscor with Trick Room? That thing is a pain in my ass.
As horribly sinful as it sounds, Cursepert might as well be taken into account. Hell, the probably the only boosting move I recommend for Trick Room is Curse (Unless you're ghost) and even then, when I use it, it's mostly as a leading move before the Trick Room is sent out, maximizing the 5 turns I can use that boost to it's full advantage.
Trace Porygon2 is an awesome matchup against Gliscor, sure gliscor can toxic but you trace poison heal so gliscor just gave you free passive healing. OHKO with ice beam too. Trace gard could work too provided it can take an EQ.
A well predicted knock off could also ruin gliscor.
A physically defensive CM reuniclus could work too.
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