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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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I still maintain that it should at least stay B range (B-, B, B+). The point about deoxys was for the variants that run a revenge killer set, which can outspeed volca at +1 and finish of Volca with a rock slide. For Dragonite, I'd prefer EQ, since otherwise Dragonite has the risk of a flame body burn, which could cripple it without cleric support. For Goodra I was looking at a mixed assault vest set, so I was assuming Dragon Tail would prevent set up.
Also, yeah on the Rotom-W. I just remembered some stuff was running random HP rocks for talonflame, I didn't remember what. That was me being tired and stupid. Sorry for the derp. :3
Then you realise that for all of them, you have to predict the switch in, nailing them on the switch. Salamence's Hydro Pump is able to KO even if they switch in on the Dragon Claw. The difference is more significant than you think. Plus if you are going to run Dragon Claw/Aqua Tail Dragonite, you are going to have way more problem than just those 3 there, while Salamence running Hydro Pump is a lesser hit to his coverage
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Rotom-H: 255-301 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Rotom-H in Sun: 110-130 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
K scratch that, but its equally hard to produce a definite safe switch in to Salamence either, there's only Togekiss and Azumarill off the top of my head, while there are more safe switch-ins for Dragonite.
And seriously, lets just be done with this, let the Mods decide after this. If you traced all the way back to when I started stating my point, I was never advocating it to be in the same rank as ChariXard or Dnite. Of course it is inferior in some ways, but I also illustrated the offensive niche it has over its competitors.
Quoting myself, overall, its viability ranking seems no less than B rank, but I can see it being in B+ or A- depending on leniency of the ranks.
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Not sure why this got ignored. This viability thread is keeping its mindset way too far in the past, as evidenced by Latios and Latias being in A+. Neither of them are top tier offensive threats anymore this gen. Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Scizor are arguably even more popular than before, and since the metagame isn't revolved around special offensive threats anymore, both of them have lost a large amount of their switch-ins. Greninja is the only premier special offensive threat and he outspeeds both of them, and packs U-turn if he can't seal the OHKO. Sure they can switch in on Rotom-W, but if their switch-in is predicted with a Volt Switch, you can be sure they're going to go to a Genesect that is going to immediately force them out again. Speaking of which, new threats such as Genesect, Excadrill, Talonflame, and especially Aegislash all make life harder when it comes to spamming Draco Meteors. And that's assuming they even get to pump out a Draco Meteor, since U-turn and Dark/Ghost-type moves are everywhere this gen.
In addition to the metagame being much harsher for them, pretty much all of their offensive options from last gen have been hit by the nerf bat. Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, Surf, Ice Beam (lol), even HP Fire have all received nerfs. And this isn't even taking into account Fairies, which while not insurmountable, definitely make their lives much harder.
The only thing they gained this generation was the buffed Defog, but there is no way that is substantial enough to keep them in A+. They need to be bumped down, I'd say Latios in A- and Latias in B+. Latias is having a harder time in this meta than her brother, since the current offensive momentum neuters the hell out of her CM set. Sad because her CM set was such a potent end-game sweeper last gen.
Obviously not an offensive player here, but I'd say that latias might even need to drop lower than B+... the bulk just isn't there anymore, and the uturn conundrum just obliterates latias. Psychic in itself suffers defensively this generation, and really Aegislash, Greninja and Talonflame (Who is taking on that lower defensive side) all would probably beat Lati 1v1. Scarf genesect forces it out and can use two of four standard attacks on it (ice beam, uturn) easing it's own prediction. I'd say dropping it all the way to B- wouldn't be that bad a stretch, it is absolutely suffering right now. Hell, right now it can barely find pokemon standard on teams that it can take on and win against. AV conk is going to tank a psychic and then knock off either for near OHKO
252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 248-294 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 268-316 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It's a persistent problem, one I've even noticed on stall teams... It's just too easy to pressure latias this generation and the opponent can easily steal free turns by you having her out.
Of course there are the hints of it's retyped mega so it's all good
252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 248-294 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 268-316 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It's a persistent problem, one I've even noticed on stall teams... It's just too easy to pressure latias this generation and the opponent can easily steal free turns by you having her out.
Of course there are the hints of it's retyped mega so it's all good
Just to add to this they can't touch aegislash (one of the most common pokes at the moment) and it can either set up or hit really hard with shadow ball. Pokes like azuramill can switch into draco meteor and hit hard with play rough, while the most either can do (unless running thunderbolt) is hit it with psyshock. I agree with your placement for latios, but think that latias can run other semi-support sets (defog being what keeps it somewhat relevant) more effectively, and should also be A- as well.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 207-243 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 432-510 (143 - 168.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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While Lati@s lost a lot this Gen, they appear to be the starmies of defog. Both are really fast and provide enough offensive pressure to guarantee a defog. Couple all of that with the fact that neither is affected by sticky web or spikes and you have yourself a couple of really great defoggers.
Speaking of Starmie, has anyone had any success with that this gen? I'm tempted to give it a rank, but I'm not very experienced with it.
Bulky calm mind latias can set up on max 252+ SpA aegislash, as long as aegislash switches in on latias. Crits and unusually many spdef drops can of course nullify this, but still. Trust me, I speak from experience. Also, the latis are by far the best defoggers in the metagame and is therefore the most reliable way to remove hazards, while also having a big offensive precense. They can run other kinds of sets too, supporting their team with memento or healing wish, both of those moves being potenial game changers. They are both either A rank or A+ rank. There is no such thing as A- rank (seriously, why do people keep nominating stuff to "A-"??) and any B rank or lower would be preposterous.
I actually think that Latias is the better Pokemon atm, simply because her additional bulk allows her to play her role as an offensive Pivot better when compared to Latios. Lets face it spamming Draco Meteor isn't working anymore so the Specs set really sucks now and their main niche is as offensive Defog users where Latios 20 more base SpA isn't helping him that much while latias 10 more Def and 20 more SDef allow her to switch-in more often and it also has Healing Wish which is a fantastic support move for offensive teams on Latias this gen and actually one of the main reasons to use it. Meanwhile Latios only advantage is that it hits a little harder, but that rarely matters because of the general difficulties the Latis have when acting as sweepers. Almost every Team has something that can safely switch-in now and the shift from a fast offensive meta game, where their speed and power gave them the edge, to a slower bulkier meta game full of hard hitting priority, where they struggle to break through the enemys defense really hurt them.
They are still great pokemon, but while they were able to stop the top threats of Gen 5 like Keldeo, terrakion and Landorus, they crumble against the top threats of gen 6 like Talonflame, Aegislash, Excadrill and Mega-Lucario.
My proposal would be Latias to A (or A-) and Latios to B+
They are still great pokemon, but while they were able to stop the top threats of Gen 5 like Keldeo, terrakion and Landorus, they crumble against the top threats of gen 6 like Talonflame, Aegislash, Excadrill and Mega-Lucario.
My proposal would be Latias to A (or A-) and Latios to B+
Aeglislash carries shadow sneak on almost all sets, and even if latias tries to set up on aegislash, it really can't do much to it. There are also mixed and swords dance aegislashes which Latias loses too. Latias is definately not the best defogger in the game, it is just the fastest. Pokemon like skarmory and zapdos have better resistances, and are generally better bulky defog users. In addition, skarmory can actually come in on pretty much any stealth rock setter, and immediately clear them. Latias isn't a bad defogger, but definitely not the best. Healing wish is pretty situational, and better for screens latias.
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My point was that the image of aegislash as some sort of insurmountable obstacle for latias is not entierly correct. If you dont get a crit then aegi loses, simple as that. Don't get into this any more, aegi has a good chance of winning and aegi is generally a good check to latias blah blah I know.
The best defoggers was an overstatement. Best offensive defoggers is more fitting. The choise if you want a defensive or an offensive defogger is of course dependant on what your team needs.
Also, healing wish is situational indeed and that is the whole point. There is always some situation in almost every match when healing wish is an invaluable ace in the hole. It allows you to play more recklessly with your sweepers early game, weaken your opponents switch ins and attempt a fresh sweep later. This goes great with pokemon like lucario, mawile and pinsir (AKA top-tier threats that should be used to their full potential). It is a definite x-factor that can completely turn a game around.
I just don't see why the latis should be dropped to B when none of them are outclassed. They both do what they are supposed to do and have useful defensive synergy, utility in support moves as well as substantial firepower. They are checked well by many top tier threats and are major genesect bait, and this means that they can never be S-rank. A/A+ rank is a perfect fit for both of them.
Just because latias isn't outclassed doesn't mean it can't drop to A- (which will exist at some point, once there are enough pokemon to fill it). Its threatened by so many top threats, as well as walled by many common pokes like heatran that I find it difficult to believe that its A+ rank material.
On healing wish, when not using it on a screens set, its really better just to play smartly with your sweepers early on, instead of sacrificing a pokemon to heal some damage off. Most sweepers should be fast enough that they shouldn't be taking damage at all until they are KO'd, if only when they set up.
On healing wish, when not using it on a screens set, its really better just to play smartly with your sweepers early on, instead of sacrificing a pokemon to heal some damage off. Most sweepers should be fast enough that they shouldn't be taking damage at all until they are KO'd, if only when they set up.
Before that, what's the designated role of Genesect? Isn't it revenge killer/scout/lategame sweeper?
How about MSaur? It's a wall, right? What about Keldeo? It's a wallbreaker, right? Or atleast its Specs Set is. What does a wallbreaker do? Now say it with me, it breaks walls. Now, how can a mon be a good wallbreaker when it can't get past the premier wall in the game? See my point there?
Also, I compared ZardY and Keldeo firepower wise. Which means on a neutral target, ZardY does more damage than specs keldeo using their most powerful STABs. Why would you even bring stealth rock, speedties and all that crap when I only compared their firepower? I do acknowledge what Keldeo has over ZardY(resists, coverage and speed).
Also, you need to stop acting like a badass, we don't need that here.
First of all mega venesaur is not on all teams, or even close to it. Second, there is absolutely no wall breaker in the entire game that can beat every single wall that is thrown at it. If there was, it would be banned to ubers in an instant. A good wall breaker just has to get past many common walls in the meta, which keldeo can do. Any, and every, wall breaker must rely on team mates to take out what it cannot. Keldeo remains one of the best pokemon at doing what it does. In addition, its speed means that its power can be used for a lot more than breaking walls, as it can outspeed many common offensive pokemon.
Finally, stop being so condescending to people you disagree with.
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Has the OU Vaibility ranking always been this hostile?
I found the offensive set to be eh, but I've never really liked life orbs on anything anyway. Then I swapped it for the bulky set, and it works really well for me, though it has to use T-Wave to check Mega Lucario. Rapid Spin and Recover means it can come in and spin away hazards as much as it wants, and Natural Cure allows it to act as a status absorber . But with it's primary niche being a rapid spinner, it faces heavy competition with all the viable spinners/foggers running around, especially Latias and Latios.
I'd say it's partially outclassed, but because it can outspeed Mega Luc while resisting VacuumWave/BulletPunch and doesn't remove your own teams hazards. I'd put it in maybe B or B-.
I have one in my current team.
I found the offensive set to be eh, but I've never really liked life orbs on anything anyway. Then I swapped it for the bulky set, and it works really well for me, though it has to use T-Wave to check Mega Lucario. Rapid Spin and Recover means it can come in and spin away hazards as much as it wants, and Natural Cure allows it to act as a status absorber . But with it's primary niche being a rapid spinner, it faces heavy competition with all the viable spinners/foggers running around, especially Latias and Latios.
I'd say it's partially outclassed, but because it can outspeed Mega Luc while resisting VacuumWave/BulletPunch and doesn't remove your own teams hazards. I'd put it in maybe B or B-.
Can't blame me, I wasn't the first one to bring the flame.
Anyway, you did read my first post regarding this farce, right? I never said that Keldeo is in any way bad, I just said that the only thing keeping Keldeo from going to A+ is the fact that it can't hope to get past MSaur, which is the only S-rank wall in OU atm. Which means that Keldeo's got every makings of a good wallbreaker, it's just that its typing doesn't match well against the best all-around wall atm.
I only brought ZardY in as a benchmark, because both are wallbreakers, with both having different sets of advantages against each other, and both are A.
I still stand by my statement that Keldeo is comfortably A
Maybe it is A, but I would not say comfortably. :) The problem is, it has quite mediocre defenses (91/90/90) and the set that from this forum seems to give is viability (specs) is predictable.
(Below is a scenario with basically displays the weaknesses of Specs with Keldeo's STAB: feel free to read but if you don't want to you get the point).
Imagine I have a talonflame on the battlefield. Lets assume this Talonflame happens to not have a choice band, just assume, because choice band priority brave bird OHKOs Keldeo. Because Modes Specs Keldeo does 267.7% minimum with hydro pump, it will probably use hydro pump. The talonflame's trainer is well aware of this, so they might switch to something that is immune (Water Absorb or Storm Drain pokemon) or something that won't take much damage (Dragonite, Trevenant). These Pokemon can take advantage of a switch: the former with Dragon Dance or the latter with (sub)seed, or can outright go for a kill (especially in trevenant's case). Same situation with its fighting stab, ghost pokemon are certainly immune.
Also, its speed is impressive, but dwarfed by most choice scarf pokemon. Even worse is that heliolisk has 1 more point of speed, dry skin, and OHKOs with Thunderbolt. I would nominate Keldeo for B+ or A- rank, personally.
EDIT: Somebody said that Specs Keldeo 2HKOs Dragonite with SR. That's mostly wrong. With Multiscale, hydro pump does 26.8% max, stealth rock does 25%, and without multi scale hydro pump does 49.5% average. Assuming Hydro Pump does max damage the first time, there is still about a 40% chance that Dragonite escapes damage! I wouldn't blame you for saying "60% chance of KO is close enough to a KO for Keldeo to 2HKO Dragonite with SR". The problem is that these results were for a 4 HP adamant Dragonite! For an actual defensive dragonite, the calcs are much different, as Keldeo cannot 2HKO with SR up. (that calculated with 252 HP, 4 Def, and + SpDef nature)
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Just to make a counterpoint to this, CB Genesect mauls specially defensive MVenusaur and generally has a favorable matchup against physically defensive versions since it can 3HKO with Iron Head and has a 30% chance to flinch. It's not ideal, but MVenusaur also has almost nothing it can do back without HP Fire. EQ is a 4HKO and if you trying to stall it out switching between that and Synthesis to avoid being 3HKO'd, you risk getting flinched and dying.
91/90/90 "mediocre defenses"
"outsped by most scarfers"
"specs keldeo in gen 6"
Somebody needs to play a bit more pokemon before commenting >.>
"outsped by most scarfers"
"specs keldeo in gen 6"
Somebody needs to play a bit more pokemon before commenting >.>
On the contrary - I could report you for minimodding. But I'll let it slide this once.
The reason the for the anger, per se, is because people such as the person talking about Salamence having Hydro Pump as some godsend advantage is absurd. Note that Salamence without Fire Blast or Earthquake is utterly absurd. Landorus-T might be able to temporarily halt a sweep; however, missing Fire Blast removes a very key aspect Salamence has over Dragonite and Haxorus - Salamence can outspeeds Genesect without relying on two Dragon Dances. Thus it makes Salamence harder to check.
Ergo, the sheer notion of running Hydro Pump is absurd to even suggest.
Nominating Mega Charizard Y for A+ Rank!
Mega Charizard Y has to be one of the best wall breakers alongside Landorus-Incarnate residing in OU at the moment. Having access to Drought while boasting a beastly 104 Attack and 159 Special Attack stat, very few things can safely switch in on Mega Charizard Y without taking massive amounts of damage.
Merits:
- As mentioned earlier, access to Drought places Mega Charizard Y in a whole different class from other wall breakers, namely Landorus-Incarnate. Eliminating damaging weather conditions, weakening Water-Type moves and powering up its Fire-Type STAB moves, Drought is an absolute godsend for this Pokemon
- Mega Charizard Y has a pretty diverse movepool that provides unpredictability. Many Charizard Y's mandatorily run Fire Blast and Solar Beam as they are STAB and coverage moves, respectively. Earthquake also finds itself as a solid coverage move because it eliminates Heatran, one of Mega Charizard's Y most common switch-ins for Fire Blast or Solar Beam. The final slot can go to a variety of moves. Dragon Pulse is to mainly hit Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp and Lati@s (Goodra is too bulky). Focus Punch is hard to use but with some prediction, Focus Punch allows Mega Charizard Y to cripple Blissey, Chansey, Tyranitar and Heatran. Roost provides Mega Charizard Y with longevity as with it's substantial base 115 Special Defense, Roost is a viable option. Ancient Power allows Mega Charizard Y to handle opposing Charizard formes and Talonflame.
- Similar to Landorus-Incarnate, Mega Charizard Y has very switch-ins. Excluding the premier walls of OU (Blissey, Chansey and Goodra, three Pokemon who are not exceedingly common anyways), the entire OU tier struggles to switch-in without taking hefty amounts of damage. Here are some calculations!
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 148-175 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 288-340 (95 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 375-442 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Keldeo has better things to worry about than heliolisk.
First of all, the Keldeo player isn't dumb, and is well aware that there may be a switch in. You choose moves accordingly. Its called prediction. Specs Keldeo can 2HKO both trevenaunt and dragonite with icy wind. Pokemon with storm drain are pretty rare now in OU at the moment. Finally, having keldeo in on a Talonflame is really a terrible idea, unless you know 100% its banded. Any pokemon's speed is dwarfed by choice scarf pokemon. No one is saying mega lucario is slow. Keldeo is extremely fast, and a hell lot stronger than choice scarf users.
Although I think Keldeo is A+, I can understand and won't be upset if it remains A rank. A-/B+ rank though? I think you need to play enough to see what it can do, or actually use it.
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