Greninja

AccidentalGreed

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Honestly I have the shittiest fanbase ever. /TWEET

QC APPROVED: Alexwolf, SMB, jukain
GP APPROVED: Kingler12345, Sasha


Overview
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While Greninja's instant popularity in contrast to its viability is certainly a hot topic of debate, it can be argued that unlike other Pokemon, it has actually earned its celebrity status. Greninja is a powerful threat to watch out for in OU because it has a number of defining qualities, including its incredibly high Speed stat, fantastic offensive ability in Protean, and plethora of coverage moves to utilize said ability with. The only things holding Greninja back from unquestionable stardom are its otherwise average offensive stats, frailty, and vulnerability to common priority attacks. Because of these drawbacks, Greninja can be KOed relatively easily by opposing tanks and a large number of priority users, so it is forced to run fully special sets to reap as much coverage and power as possible. Fortunately, these factors don't stop Greninja from being a truly dangerous monster to prepare for, as it can significantly weaken or even swiftly clean teams with just a little team support.


All-Out Attacker
########
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Extrasensory
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Grass / Dark Pulse
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

With any combination of the given moves, Greninja attains great power and coverage to batter the opposition with. Hydro Pump is the most powerful special attack that Greninja can opt to run outside of Hyper Beam, benefits from great coverage, and should be used against bulkier targets in general. Ice Beam is essential for this set, as it provides coverage against Grass- and Dragon-types, and also operates as Greninja's main "STAB" move if Hydro Pump's inaccuracy is too risky. Extrasensory is nearly a requirement, as it allows Greninja to heavily damage Mega Venusaur and Keldeo, two of the most common defensive and offensive threats in the metagame, respectively. It also hits several other important counters, including Tentacruel and Conkeldurr.

The rest of the set comes down to preference. Greninja must unfortunately risk losing coverage against some of its counters if it chooses specific moves. Dark Pulse hits Psychic- and Ghost-types super effectively, including important bulky targets such as Aegislash and Deoxys-D. The flinch chance may also occasionally come in handy against both of them. Hidden Power Grass can be run to hit opposing Water-, Ground-, and Rock-types hard, but is mainly used to hit popular bulky targets such as Rotom-W and Gastrodon. It should also be noted that using Hidden Power Grass will turn Greninja Grass-type, allowing it to take on Rotom-W's attacks more easily. Hidden Power Fire can be used to reliably hit a smaller, but equally important list of targets, especially Ferrothorn, specially defensive Scizor, and Forretress.

Grass Knot can be used instead of Hidden Power Grass, but differs somewhat in its targets. The move is reserved for mostly for extra damage against Mega Gyarados and Tyranitar while still keeping grass coverage. U-turn is a great alternative in the last slot for reliable scouting early-game, although Greninja vastly prefers better coverage and power over U-turn's utility. Lastly, Greninja can utilize Substitute to take advantage of the many switches it forces, though this obviously comes at the cost of durability and coverage.

Set Details
========

Maximum Speed and Special Attack investment with a Timid nature gives Greninja maximum power and a huge advantage over many fast unboosted threats, including Alakazam, Tornadus-T, Starmie, and Latios, as well as Choice Scarf Tyranitar. These threats are so important that Modest and Rash natures should not even be considered. A Naive nature can be considered if Greninja uses U-turn, although the power boost may prove insignificant. Life Orb is also a requirement, as Greninja needs all the power it can get. Unlike other Pokemon, Greninja is not bothered by Life Orb recoil to the point that it needs to consider alternative items such as Expert Belt.

Usage Tips
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This set can be used at any time in the game; it's your call as to whether Greninja is an early- to mid-game threat or a late-game cleaner. Due to its frailty, Greninja should typically be sent in via a slow U-turn or Volt Switch, or after a teammate has fainted.

As a word of caution, do not overestimate Greninja's capabilities. Even with Protean boosting its attacks, Greninja cannot OHKO many bulky opponents, such as Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Aegislash, Latias, and Togekiss at full heath, giving many of them opportunities to tank a hit and retaliate. Greninja should not switch into such Pokemon, or if it is up against them, it should retreat and allow another Pokemon to either handle the threat or weaken it so it can be KOed later on. Additionally, do not attempt to wall Pokemon or tank resisted hits with the help of Protean, as Greninja is very frail and additional damage along with Life Orb recoil will quickly bring it down. However, changing types to make Greninja resistant or neutral to otherwise fatal attacks is perfectly acceptable in desperate situations.

Team Options
========

Greninja applies tons of offensive pressure against most teams, and thus appreciates entry hazards to rack up additional damage and punish switches. Reliable hazards setters include Deoxys-S, Smeargle, and, especially for VoltTurn teams, Landorus-T. Greninja is a great fit on VoltTurn teams for the reasons provided above, so it pairs well with Pokemon such as Thundurus, Landorus-T, and Scizor, as they cover each others' checks and counters. As Greninja will occasionally be required to sweep when the situation calls for it, it might need additional insurance against special walls such as Blissey, Sylveon, and Rotom-W. Scizor can typically handle the former two, while Goodra, Latias, and Assault Vest Conkeldurr can typically absorb Will-O-Wisp from Rotom-W and hit back hard.

Spikes
########
name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Extrasensory
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Due to the amount of switches and free turns Greninja generates, it has many opportunities to use Spikes to support its teammates and inflict more damage. Hydro Pump provides great power and coverage, and Ice Beam serves as a good alternative main move to Hydro Pump. Ice Beam typically KOes common users of Defog, including Latios, Latias, and Mandibuzz, that might switch in to remove the entry hazards on the field. Extrasensory is an alternative option to reliably hit Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, and most importantly, Tentacruel. U-turn is somewhat complementary with Greninja's chosen entry hazard, as it allows Greninja to escape Rapid Spin users on top of other usual counters, though it sacrifices precious killing opportunities due to inferior power and coverage. Hidden Power Ghost can also be used to turn Greninja into a spinblocker; however, it is significantly inferior to other attacks in terms of its overall power, coverage, and usability. Toxic Spikes is also worth considering to wear down defensive targets such as Chansey; however, keep in mind that Toxic Spikes are generally easier to remove and do not affect Pokemon with the ability Levitate.

Set Details
========

Greninja needs to be as fast as possible to lay down Spikes, and as powerful as it can be to score KOs on opponents when needed. Therefore, the usual combination of maximum Speed and Special Attack with Life Orb will suffice for this set. As far as other options are concerned, Focus Sash almost guarantees that Greninja will be able to set up at least one layer of hazards or survive an attack and KO back.

Usage Tips
========

Although this set employs Spikes, only lay them down when you believe it is necessary. It is not recommended to miss important potential KO opportunities against Pokemon that give your teammates trouble just to lay a single layer of Spikes. Instead, attempt to lay hazards down early-game when Greninja can force a multitude of switches, and use Spikes against predicted switches or against walls that can't hurt it too much. One of Greninja's best opportunities to lay down hazards is the face of slower Pokemon that rely on Electric-type moves. Spikes will turn Greninja into a Ground-type thanks to Protean, and will make it immune to Volt Switch and other Electric-type moves, essentially giving it another free turn to use Spikes or attack. Keep in mind that multiple layers of Spikes or Toxic Spikes are not necessary, as Greninja might not find multiple opportunities to set multiple layers of entry hazards.

When attacking, the premise is the same as with the all-out attacker set; simply attack and watch the opponent's Pokemon take huge amounts of damage or switch out, racking up even more damage from entry hazards.

Team Options
========

Spikes Greninja is best suited for offensive teams where dedicated leads or hazard layers such as Deoxys-S (which offers different coverage) are unwanted. Greninja differentiates itself from these archetypes due to its outstanding offensive presence. Furthermore, by forcing switches, it provides itself with setup opportunities. Spikes Greninja should be paired with offensive Pokemon that benefit from grounded checks and counters being worn down. Swords Dance Lucario is a great example, as it needs just one layer of Spikes to guarantee the OHKO on physically defensive Hippowdon and other walls. Pokemon that can apply offensive pressure, force switches, and thus rack up more damage, such as Substitute Kyurem-B and bulky Rotom-W, can be used alongside both types of Spikes.

Although Greninja typically isn't bothered by the presence of Rapid Spin and Defog users, running a spinblocker is a good idea to counteract the former if your Pokemon are truly reliant on Spikes or Toxic Spikes. For example, Gengar can take on common Rapid Spin users outside of Starmie, while Aegislash can tank several attacks while spinblocking. Defog is a little harder to prevent, but attempts can either be blocked with Greninja's powerful attacks, another teammate's Taunt, or the oft-unprepared-for Defiant Bisharp. If using Bisharp, consider pairing both Greninja and Bisharp with Air Balloon Aegislash to limit the amount of hazards opposing Deoxys-S or Deoxys-D can set up, in addition to temporarily preventing Excadrill from spamming Earthquake against all three Pokemon.


Other Options
########

A physical set is inferior due to Greninja's limited list of physical moves, most of which are weak and lack coverage (they are mostly Water-, Dark-, and Normal-type moves). The only other physical move worth nothing outside of U-turn is Shadow Sneak; specifically, it can be used to revenge kill weakened Deoxys-S and avoid incoming Normal- or Fighting-type moves (such as Mach Punch and Superpower) from the likes of Diggersby and Conkeldurr. A mixed set is also inferior, as Greninja will have to split EVs between Attack, Special Attack, and Speed just to boost its physical moves. Water Shuriken might seem cool on paper for revenge killing Talonflame, but it is of limited use since it takes up a moveslot and does physical damage.


Checks & Counters
########

**Residual Damage**: Greninja is frail and relies on Life Orb to make up for its average attacking stats. When coupled with damage from status conditions and entry hazard damage, Life Orb recoil can add up quickly and severely shorten Greninja's lifespan.

**Specially Defensive Pokemon**: Pokemon with high special bulk and/or Assault Vest can sponge most of Greninja's special attacks and wear it down or outright KO it. Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Cresselia, Goodra, and Ferrothorn are common examples of such Pokemon, although the first three are the only ones that can reliably switch into Greninja without the fear of getting worn down by a super effective hit.

**Bulky Attackers**: There are Pokemon that resist most of Greninja's most commonly used moves, possibly survive attacks reserved specifically for them, and hit back hard. Keldeo and Mega Venusaur resist all of Greninja's most commonly used moves bar Extrasensory and can hit back with their STAB attacks. Assault Vest Conkeldurr can shrug off most of Greninja's attacks and either heal itself with Drain Punch or attack with Mach Punch. However, like Keldeo and Mega Venusaur, it must watch out for Extrasensory. Furthermore, Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Azumarill, and Mega Gyarados are all naturally bulky and can tank most of Greninja's usual attacks.

**Faster Attackers**: Greninja is very vulnerable to revenge killing, though its Water typing means that it resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard when it switches in. The most reliable way to revenge kill it besides using Choice Scarf Pokemon or naturally faster Pokemon such as Deoxys-S is with powerful priority users. Assuming Greninja does not change into a type that resists a particular priority attack, Talonflame, Scizor, Entei, Dragonite, Absol, Bisharp, and Conkeldurr are able to deal hefty damage or OHKO it with their respective priority moves. Thundurus can be included in this grouping as well, as it can paralyze Greninja with Prankster Thunder Wave and leave it crippled for the rest of the match.
 
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alexwolf

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I don't see the need for HP Grass and Grass Knot to be on the main set (1st set). You mention Rotom-W, Jellicent, and Tyranitar as targets, but Tyranitar is hit almost as hard by Hydro Pump, Jellicent is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse (and is rare), and most Rotom-W are either speedy or physically defensive, which means that Dark Pulse 2HKOes after SR, while Dark Pulse can also 2HKO SpD Rotom-W after Greninja uses U-turn once, with SR up. Those moves are AC material.

In general, the most useful move for the last slot is HP Fire, as Ferro, Scizor, and Mega Mawile are pretty important Pokemon to dent / OHKO. One move that i think deserves a slash somewhere on the main set is Extrasensory. It OHKOes Keldeo, a great check to Greninja, 2HKOes Mega Venusaur, an otherwise perfect counter, 2HKOes the increasingly common Assault Vest Conkeldurr, which is not 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, and 2HKOes Tentacruel, which otherwise is a good check to Greninja.
 
I'm not QC or anything, but I agree with alexwolf; there's not much you're hitting with HP Grass / Grass Knot that you can't with Greninja's other moves, but here are my best guesses: HP Grass doesn't KO Rotom-W, so Dark Pulse does the job just as well for the reasons alexwolf mentioned. Grass Knot only does marginally more damage to Tyranitar than Hydro Pump, and U-Turn outdamages them both against the Careful Assault Vest set. HP Grass and Grass Knot both deal the best damage of all of Greninja's moves to Azumarill, but it doesn't KO so you'll just get OHKOed by a neutral Play Rough. The main draw of Grass Knot I can see is against Mega Gyarados, where it cleanly OKHOes, but that's about it, and possibly if your team has trouble against Gastrodon.

On the other hand, HP Fire OHKOes all of Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor and Genesect, although obviously you need to avoid Scarfed U-Turns from the latter. It also has a 93.8% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 0 SDf Skarmory after Stealth Rock, or a 25% chance without them, whereas Hydro Pump has a 43.8% chance with rocks and no chance without (and its accuracy doesn't help). Greninja outspeeds and, with HP Fire, guarantees the OHKO on Mega Lucario, which Hydro Pump, especially considering its shaky accuracy, cannot always do (68.8% chance, times 0.8 for Hydro Pump's accuracy). It also puts a hefty dent in Mega Mawile.

Having said all that, Greninja's best bet is probably something like:

- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse / Extrasensory (for the reasons alexwolf suggested)
- HP Fire / U-Turn

Don't quote that set exactly, I'd have to play around with the slashes a bit on the last two slots, but I really think the Grass attacks should be under OO / AC.
 
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Wouldn't Hasty be a better nature for sets with U-Turn? I know people have been opting for natures that don't bring down Def because of priority moves but aside from Aqua Jet, he isn't really going to take those moves very well despite having that nature. At least with Hasty you're not hampering his better defensive stat and Greninja will better take things like Hydro Pump.
 

AccidentalGreed

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Wouldn't Hasty be a better nature for sets with U-Turn? I know people have been opting for natures that don't bring down Def because of priority moves but aside from Aqua Jet, he isn't really going to take those moves very well despite having that nature. At least with Hasty you're not hampering his better defensive stat and Greninja will better take things like Hydro Pump.
Unless we are discussing specific cases such as Genesect receiving a specific boost due to a lowered defense, there is little reason to change defense- natures if a Pokemon has a "better defense," especially considering Greninja is already frail and the defense boosts/decreases are negligible. Show me cases where a Hasty nature is helpful, and I'll consider.

Additionally, due to concerns regarding quality and my main typing outlet being a phone, I cannot make many changes. Please wait until after the tenth so that I can get a laptop and make significant changes.
 
Unless we are discussing specific cases such as Genesect receiving a specific boost due to a lowered defense, there is little reason to change defense- natures if a Pokemon has a "better defense," especially considering Greninja is already frail and the defense boosts/decreases are negligible. Show me cases where a Hasty nature is helpful, and I'll consider.

Additionally, due to concerns regarding quality and my main typing outlet being a phone, I cannot make many changes. Please wait until after the tenth so that I can get a laptop and make significant changes.
If Naive doesn't really benefit it in any way then I believe you should be lowering the inferior defense. Anyway, SOMALIA explains it better than I ever could in this post.
 

AccidentalGreed

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I made changes to the offensive set above. I require a bit of feedback regarding the spikes set, as it seems it has too many slashes for my liking, so speak up if you believe it needs to be narrowed down to a specific list!
 
Disclaimer: I'm not QC

With the spikes set, I would probably use this:
name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam / Extrasensory
move 4: U-turn / Taunt / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Focus Sash / Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid
Reasoning:
-I chose spikes over Toxic spikes since spikes has always been more consistent, and can also be used to soak up an oncoming electric type attack, which many people try to use on greninja, seeing as it is originally water type.
-I chose hydro pump over surf just for extra damage, as this set is somewhat utility and could benefit from some extra power.
-I chose ice beam over extrasensory just for coverage and to get those fast dragon types like garchomp and things like thundurus-T.
-I chose U-turn since this set is leaning toward utility, and U-turn will just help keep momentum up, and can do great damage to things like latias/latios, aided by the fact that greninja gets stab on it. I don't see taunt as necessary, since if an opponent counters greninja with a wall, he can just set up 3 layers of spikes and U-turn out to something more capable of handling it. I don't find hp fire necessary for similar reasoning, as the spikes set is not intended to sweep.
 

Jukain

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ok so your first two slots on spikes greninja are good

we decided ice beam was key, so it ought to be alone in its slot.

then the universal sentiment was pretty much 'why would you taunt when you can attack'. so, we'd like taunt dropped. hp fire is pretty much only for ferrothorn, which isn't so important to the exclusion of everything else; we'd like it dropped too. so, that leaves u-turn / extrasensory, which we believe to be the best choice for the last slot.

smb supports this
 

AccidentalGreed

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AccidentalGreed Idk if you just missed it but I linked a post stating the uses of a Hasty nature.
I still stand by what I say with some new evidence. (thanks Woodchuck)

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Greninja: 248-292 (86.7 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 149-177 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Additionally, the post claims that it shouldn't lower Greninja's "decent Special Defense stat." However, if you actually took a look at its special defense, it's no where near "decent," and the maginal damage recovered from using a Naive nature matters significantly in specific situations, such as the difference between a potential 2HKO or 3HKO from Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch, or surviving an Extremespeed from Entei, Dragonite, and Genesect.

There is little reason to argue when there is hardly any actual difference between both of Greninja's defenses.

Also Jukain I made the changes :)
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
AG, I think you intended to slash the first set this way:

name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Ice Beam / Extrasensory
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / U-turn
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid / Naive

I'm just a little uncertain that HP Fire should be slashed before U-Turn, since it seems like the only notable thing it hits is Ferrothorn; Scizor and Genesect take a boatload from Hydro Pump anyway. I also think Expert Belt should be moved to Set Details, as base 103 Special Attack isn't too impressive, and consequently, Greninja needs as much power as possible for neutral targets.
 
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AccidentalGreed

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AG, I think you intended to slash the first set this way:

name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Ice Beam / Extrasensory
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / U-turn
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid / Naive

I'm just a little uncertain that HP Fire should be slashed before U-Turn, since it seems like the only notable thing it hits is Ferrothorn; Scizor and Genesect take a boatload from Hydro Pump anyway. I also think Expert Belt should be moved to Set Details, as base 103 Special Attack isn't too impressive, and consequently, Greninja needs as much power as possible for neutral targets.
From what I gathered last night, Ice Beam is an essential item, and Dark Pulse isn't exactly entirely needed.

However, I removed Expert Belt and switched U-turn and Hidden Power Fire around, and maintained the natures' positions to accommodate the changes.
 
For the Spiking set, I'm not sure why Toxic Spikes deserves a slash in the main set. It's been brought up by others in some other analyses (notably the Forretress one), but Toxic Spikes just doesn't seem that effective this gen. Quoting from the Forretress analysis:

Toxic Spikes is an option if your team needs it, but it is mostly inferior because Steels are so popular, Excadrill and Defoggers can get rid of them for no cost, and Mega Venusaur can simply absorb them.

With the Defog buff and Excadrill's drop to OU it seems like every common hazard removal mon is immune to Toxic Spikes (or actively absorbs them, like Tentacruel). MegaVenusaur is incredibly popular and can easily find switchin opportunities to eat Toxic Spikes. Steels and non-grounded Pokémon are obviously unconcerned by T. Spikes.

Toxic Spikes have a niche, sure, but I think it's a pretty small one, particularly on a hazard setter as offensive as Greninja. It feels like something you should mention in the set details.
 
All-out Attacker- Physical
########
name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Power-Up Punch
move 3: Night Slash / Bounce
move 4: U-turn
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 Hp / 252 Attk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========
  • Power-Up Punch allows for Greninja to reach 433 Attack, this is also Greninja's only stat boosting move
  • Waterfall is Greninja's strongest water physical move
  • Nightslash to hit Aegislash/Gengar/Alakazam
  • Bounce to hit Venusaur/Blaziken/Breloom
  • U-Turn allows you to inflict damage and switch out, and with Greninja's high speed, you can have confidence in going first
 

Punchshroom

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All-out Attacker- Physical
########
name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Power-Up Punch
move 3: Night Slash / Bounce
move 4: U-turn
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 Hp / 252 Attk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========
  • Power-Up Punch allows for Greninja to reach 433 Attack, this is also Greninja's only stat boosting move
  • Waterfall is Greninja's strongest water physical move
  • Nightslash to hit Aegislash/Gengar/Alakazam
  • Bounce to hit Venusaur/Blaziken/Breloom
  • U-Turn allows you to inflict damage and switch out, and with Greninja's high speed, you can have confidence in going first
Other Options
########
  • A physical set is inferior due to to the fact that Greninja's most usable physical moves have lower damage output than its special ones. A mixed set also falls under this category, since Greninja will have to split EVs between Attack, Special Attack, and Speed just to boost its physical moves.
I'd much rather use more consistent physical Water attackers like DD Gyarados, Azumarill, and DD Crawdaunt, thank you very much. Physical Greninja rarely threatens anything than special Greninja can't (which already has U-turn) anyway.
 
Yeah, I think it's been said time and time again that physical Greninja is pretty gimmicky.
 
to be honest i would just mention it's physical options just to say no to a physical set water shuriken is a nice move but without skill link and a good way to boost that rather weak 95 base attack a physical gren just is plain terrible and bad.
 

Ash Borer

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more power ofc. I think its a bit of a waste of gren's speed though. its like specs gar. can't come in enough and hates choice lock
 

alexwolf

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AccidentalGreed i need you to be a bit more concise in the overview. Greninja's pros are its Speed, coverage, and power, and its cons are frailty and vulnerability to priority.

Also, either slash Surf on both sets or on neither. I think it's set comments material, as without Hydro Pump you are too weak.

Move Sash to Set Details. I don't like us encouraging suicide leads unless the Pokemon is truly excellent at this job (see Deo-S).

On the second set, mention some Pokemon that really appreciate Spikes support and pair well with Greninja (late-game sweepers with grounded checks that need a bit if help to clean up).

Also, beef up the checks and counters section, there are a ton of things missing, such as Goodra, Mega Venusaur, Tentacruel, and more.

Do those and i will stamp it.
 

AccidentalGreed

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alexwolf Yo, I made the changes! At least, I hope I did correctly, but it should be pretty simple on a pretty one-dimentional Pokemon.

And also lol no Specs, although I guess that warrants explanation in "Other Options."
 

alexwolf

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Checks and Counters said:
Revenge killing is really the only reliable way of checking Greninja
Reword this, as Greninja has plenty of solid checks and even some counters.




QC APPROVED 1/3
 

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