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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Megas won't be tiered differently than their base forms, except in cases where the mega is broken, in that case the item will be banned to ubers like Gengar's and Kangaskhan's. If you're against ranking them seperately, then I'll point out that that would mean Venusaur would be getting ranked for mega Venusaur's walling ability, and not for the niches it can fill in its base form. Since I think you understand that, and were just addressing the people who don't understand the tiering process, I'll finish by saying that since every time a mega is used, its the base form that shows on usage stats, its the base forms that will be banned by usage, and making a complex ban to only ban the megas would give me a migraine.
I'm gonna nominate Weavile again for B+.
Weavile might suck against stall teams. Yes, Mega Scizor and Aegislash do set up on it (although even then, aegislash can only do it with good prediction, as weavile can use Icicle Crash as it uses king's shield).
But now that steel no longer resists dark-type moves, many of them can no longer set up on it. Also, weavile's got a new stab move, Icicle Crash, with a good 85BP and a 30% chance of flinch (which works well with weavile's base 125 speed). It's also got a buffed knock off and still has access to powerful moves like ice shard and pursuit. Come on, it's better than trash like Sylveon.
Weavile might suck against stall teams. Yes, Mega Scizor and Aegislash do set up on it (although even then, aegislash can only do it with good prediction, as weavile can use Icicle Crash as it uses king's shield).
But now that steel no longer resists dark-type moves, many of them can no longer set up on it. Also, weavile's got a new stab move, Icicle Crash, with a good 85BP and a 30% chance of flinch (which works well with weavile's base 125 speed). It's also got a buffed knock off and still has access to powerful moves like ice shard and pursuit. Come on, it's better than trash like Sylveon.
When I said "tiering" I meant how they are ranked in this thread. I guess "tiering" was a poor word choice. I'll edit my post, replacing instances of "tiering" with "ranking."
Sylveon is not "trash", it's a really good mon. It's one of the only viable defensive Fairy-types, and Fairy is a very good defensive type. Being immune to Dragon and resisting Dark-type are huge in today's meta. With naturally high Special Defense, it can invest fully in physical Defense letting take hits reasonably well on both sides of the spectrum. It has support options like Heal Bell and Wish and isn't setup fodder because Pixiate Hyper Voice hits really hard.
As for Weavile, I can't really agree or disagree with you because I have little experience with it. I just felt I had to address the Sylveon thing since "better than Sylveon" seems to be a part of your argument (and you can't compare Weavile and Sylveon anyway, they're pretty much polar opposites in terms of roles).
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I hope you realize these two are illegal together (one is a B2W2 tutor move, the other is a XY egg move).
First of all, I do agree that Lucario is far too difficult to switch into, and I do believe that it should be banned. However, Zapdos can still be considered a decent check, because it beats the special set utterly and completely, and can still beat the physical set to some extent provided that Zapdos is still at full (ofc I realize that you cant always keep SR off, but I'm just saying that there are some scenarios in which is does). Heatwave does not OHKO Lucario, but 78-92% can't be ignored. Also special Aegislash is beaten every time considering Shadow Ball comes no where close to 2HKOing (35.1 - 41.6%), and Heatwave can 3HKO (or OHKO if it is in blade form). Zapdos also has an extremely good chance out out-predicting Aegislash that tries to Kings Shield back into shield form. Also, yes it is possible for Genesect to get a spA boost, and in that case (provided it predicted the Zapdos switch), it could 2HKO. But my point still stands that Zapdos is a very reliable check to Genesect in most situations. Most genesect do not even run max spA anymore, and a lot are banded or otherwise, and like i said, if the max spA scarf version does not have a +spA boost, or doesn't predict correctly, then Zapdos can still switch in.
Somewhat agreed. After Sleep got reset to pre-Gen V status, RestTalk's become slightly more reliable, but in a offensively oriented metagame, I feel that RestTalk is going to be more of a hindrance than a help. All of his other sets that involves Calm Mind lack recovery outside of Leftovers, so beat on it enough and he'll fall to strong priority (basically this metagame). Furthermore, Manaphy somewhat eclipses Suicune as a Water-type boosting sweeper. In order for Suicune to become somewhat threatening, he needs to have 2 Calm Minds under his belt. Manaphy just needs one Tail Glow to 2HKO everything in the metagame, not to also mention Manaphy is faster than Suicune. However, you can make an argument that Suicune is bulkier than Manaphy and would fit better on Bulky offense, but that's the only thing it's got over Manaphy.
Each successive generation has seen CroCune become progressively worse due to the increasing offensive creep in this metagame. I would probably place Suicune in C+.
I disagree, I think CroCune is way more useful than Manaphy. Manaphy's best shot at sweeping comes from a tail glow set, which is too slow to do anything to offensive teams. CroCune can literally set up in the face of some of the toughest wall breakers around, and as long as you don't get crit, you win, and most likely sweep the other team. Manaphy could potentially run the same CM set as Suicune, but the loss of bulk makes it so Manaphy is 3HKO'd a lot more easily. If you've ever used Suicune, you know that he barely survives the 3HKO from certain attacks and any loss in bulk would result in him being significantly less useful.
I've used Suicune in multiple teams in the top 50ish range of the ladder and I think he's A rank easily. The only thing holding him back is being set up bait for something like physical MLuc while resting. That fits with the other mons in A rank like Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Mamoswine, and Bisharp who are all forced out by MLuc and potentially set up bait for him as well.
I agree with everything except with your placement and your comparison with Manaphy. I can somewhat say from experience cuz I interchanged both of them while testing. Manaphy is more of a mid/early game sweeper where Suicune is a late-game sweeper. Reliability-wise, Suicune imo is more reliable to sweep if counters were removed(water absorb mons) because of its bulk and the nature of a Resttalk set. Manaphy is vulnerable to status(unless rest+rain dance hydration) plus it sports less bulk so its more vulnerable to priority/being outsped.
Imo the only thing common with Manaphy and Suicune is their mono-water typing and being a sweeper. The way they sweep is very different(Suicune sweeps through grinding, Manaphy does it by sheer force). As such, neither outclasses each other.
Manaphy can run exactly the same calm mind set Suicune does, with slightly less bulk but more power and also hydration to heal rest if you have drizzle support. I would rate the two sets equally, but CM Manaphy earns itself more setup opportunities because of fear of the threatening tail glow set.
That's a pointless comparison, Suicune outclasses Manaphy on the CroCune set while Suicune has nothing on Manaphy's Tail Glow set. They are nothing alike aside from the Water-typing and that they're legendary pokemon >.>
I do know that. However they are both great moves on weavile which can allow it to either hit hard or become a fast utility pokemon. Weavile's much more versatile than in gen 5, really.
I agree with this and want to expand upon it a bit. Aside from the points mentioned in this post, there's also a couple of situations that make ranking Megas separately redundant. Either the mega doesn't add a large amount to the Pokemon (for example, Scizor, Alakazam, Tyranitar, or Abomasnow,) or the Mega set is the only set they can viably run (for example, Mawile, Pinsir, or Ampharos). The only exception I see to these points is Charizard in that it has two very different mega forms to choose from, but I'll get to him in a bit. The point here is that most Megas won't be ranked very differently from their base forms unless the Mega is the very thing that makes it viable for OU.
Now, I want to talk about Charizard. If we do not rank Megas separately, then Charizard should be S rank. First, look at how both Mega forms are ranked. A+ for X and A for Y. These are very good and accurate rankings for them (I even think Charizard Y should be A+ in the current state of things, but that isn't relevant to this post). This doesn't even take into account the most important aspect of Charizard having two very viable and very different Mega forms: you have absolutely no idea which one it is in team preview. Charizard itself is more unpredictable than Lucario in that it's not just a "physical or special" scenario, but both forms have completely different stat spreads, typings, and abilites. Even when you find out which form it is, you still have to consider the kind of set its running. Is that Charizard X a fast sweeper, or a more bulky set? Is that Zard Y fully special, or mixed? This kind of unpredictability, combined with the fact that both Mega forms can be considered top-tier threats on their own make should make Charizard an S rank Pokemon.
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I can agree with putting Charizard in S rank, not because of its unpredictability but because of the sheer power behind its movesets. Charizard-Y 2HKO's even dedicated special walls like Calm Togekiss like it's nothing without setup, bulky Waters get destroyed by Solarbeam and can't do much back because of Sun and that excellent SpDef. Meanwhile Zard-X is a top-tier Dragon Dancer without weaknesses to priority and great physical bulk to shrug off any priority moves. It's raw coverage between Dragon Claw/Fire Punch/EQ is almost unresisted and hits pretty damn hard with Tough Claws and DD. It can't be burned either, which helps a lot. Sure, both sets have their counters, like Lati@s for Zard-Y and Hippowdon for Zard-X but they are few and far between really, there's also the issue of "Is it Zard-X or Zard-Y?" You can try to guess beforehand, but when it comes down to it you need to get it right because the two Mega's destroy each others counters pretty badly. I could add more but tbh this is already enough reason to put it in S, the pro's of using Charizard outweigh the cons by miles.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was trying to make a point for all viable sets Suicune could've run last generation. The specific set I was referring to was Suicune's CM + 3 Attacks set, which draws comparison to Tail Glow Manaphy in that both are boosting sweepers. I'm sorry if my statement was not clear earlier.
Regarding Resttalk, Manaphy has no business dealing with CroCune, as they are both fundamentally different Pokemon in the defensive aspect of things. What I wanted to point out is that it's best set, Crocune, is getting more and more unreliable each generation. RestTalk has always been a shaky strategy and becomes even more so with the increase of offensive pressure in the metagame. When asleep, Suicune has a 33% chance of attacking, which means if its against a wallbreaker or sweeper, those two have a 66% chance of boosting and killing it or do massive damage on it. Suicune has come a long way since the slightly stally/defensive metagame, and I really think that the changes over time pretty much removed him from the running as a B Pokemon.
I actually planned on making a post, very similar to Salt the Flesh but it looks like he beat me to the punch.
This actually brings up a very interesting question of just how Mega Evolutions will truly be evaluated.
Take into consideration things like Lucario and Charizard. For the former, it is truly a mix-up of whether or not
A) the Lucario will even Mega Evolve and
B) Should it choose to Mega Evolve, what variant will it be?
For the latter, it's pretty clear that the Charizard holds a Mega Stone but the fact that it has TWO potential Mega Evolutions really throws the opponent in for a loop. One might switch in one's Goodra expecting Y's Fire Blast and get hit by an X's Dragon Claw instead ; likewise, one might think that Rotom-W can take on a Mega Zard X only to see that it evolves into a Mega Zard Y. To make matters worse, the two Pokemon require very similar team support so it's really hard to tell what evolution it is from glancing at the structure of the team.
Charizard is an S-Ranking Pokemon solely due to the unpredictability. And with a Pokemon of either evolution's caliber, one turn of uncertainty is all they need to set-up / grab a KO. Now we all know that as soon as Charizard mega evolves, it'll drop down the rankings a rank or two (though I still strongly feel that Mega Charizard Y should be A+ Rank) because upon knowing what Mega Evolution it is, it's a bit "easier" to handle the Charizard (*pft*, yeah right).
This actually brings up a very interesting question of just how Mega Evolutions will truly be evaluated.
Take into consideration things like Lucario and Charizard. For the former, it is truly a mix-up of whether or not
A) the Lucario will even Mega Evolve and
B) Should it choose to Mega Evolve, what variant will it be?
For the latter, it's pretty clear that the Charizard holds a Mega Stone but the fact that it has TWO potential Mega Evolutions really throws the opponent in for a loop. One might switch in one's Goodra expecting Y's Fire Blast and get hit by an X's Dragon Claw instead ; likewise, one might think that Rotom-W can take on a Mega Zard X only to see that it evolves into a Mega Zard Y. To make matters worse, the two Pokemon require very similar team support so it's really hard to tell what evolution it is from glancing at the structure of the team.
Charizard is an S-Ranking Pokemon solely due to the unpredictability. And with a Pokemon of either evolution's caliber, one turn of uncertainty is all they need to set-up / grab a KO. Now we all know that as soon as Charizard mega evolves, it'll drop down the rankings a rank or two (though I still strongly feel that Mega Charizard Y should be A+ Rank) because upon knowing what Mega Evolution it is, it's a bit "easier" to handle the Charizard (*pft*, yeah right).
i don't know whats crazier, the fact we are suggesting a 4x SR weak mon for S (InB4 somebody shows me it already happened), the fact its Charizard or the fact I 100% agree with it. Charizard was blessed by the gods of "We listened to the dumbass fanboys" this gen, it is one of the most dangerous mons there is, one of the few justifiable megas over Lucario and Venusaur (With Mega Pinsir also coming to mind...whats with these 4x SR weak mons being so godly?) and thats talking about either Mega Form on its own. even if it only had one it would still be a huge threat, add in the mind games and the many sets (Oh my how many sets) and you have Charizard "He can actually do something now".
Holy Crap gen 6 has brought us to a reverse world.
Holy Crap gen 6 has brought us to a reverse world.
I agree with the megas being ranked differently, because 9/10 times, I can look at a team and guess who the mega will be, and in charizard's case, which varient it will be. If I'm wrong, its usually because the opponent's team is poorly made and I have lost a total of 3 battles where I guessed wrong (and 1 was because a scarfed Jirachi got 5 flinches in a row, so I don't always count that one). Teams rarely carry more than 1 or 2 pokemon that even can mega evolve, because so many pokemon are unviable without their megastone. Add that there's only so many pokemon that you treat differently whether they MEvolve or not, its not too hard to rate those pokemon forms apart. Venusaur, Gyarados, Heracross, and Garchomp? Seriously those ones need to be ranked individually they work differently than their base forms and play completely different roles. Pinsir, Charizard, Mawile, and a few others should be ranked differently because otherwise someone might assume that the base forms are actually viable. And Megas like Lucario and Gardevoir should be ranked differently because the megas are pretty much just improved versions, and people need to know how viable the base forms are if they have already filled they're base forms. Referencing Meloetta makes no sense because running Relic Song doesn't limit the rest of your team at all. When you look at it, every mega makes sense to rank separately because since you're only allowed 1 mega, we need to know how the base forms rank if we still want to use them
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I'm gonna have to agree with Charizard for S if megas are not ranked separately. The sheer unpredictability of the set lets it run rampage. Both megas have COMPLETELY different counters which only adds to the trouble. For example Sp. Def Heatran would normally counter Charizard-Y, but if its running Mixed with EQ, the wall is down. It basically guarantees a momentum swing with good team support and play. The benefit of Charizard-X is also with Dragon Claw/Flare Blitz/EQ and an easy to set up DD, its attacks are unresisted in the tier. The only other mon that does this is Aegislash, but he is too slow to make proper use of it. Charizard-X outspeeds the entire unboosted tier except Deo-s after a DD. The only problem is pesky Flare Blitz recoil and an SR weakness. But with Defog this gen, SR is not a major issue.
If we're seriously considering moving Charizard up to S, then I'm gonna propose Dragonite for A+. From my personal use, Dragonite's only 3 flaws are reliance on Defog or Rapid Spin, huge weakness to ice, and its crippled by any of the major statuses. If Charizard reaches S, then we clearly don't care about SR enough to let it affect ranking, the only ice types that I really care about are Mamoswine to revenge kill it, and Greninja to OHKO through multiscale (also Cloyster if it runs a sash, but I don't see much of those, and they're pretty easy to take care of otherwise), and status isn't as much as a problem as other physical attackers because Lum berry sets are still out there. Besides, other A+ pokes (I'm specifically referring to Mega Pinsir) have it arguably worse problems with status. There are of course arguments against that, but there are plenty of arguments against Charizard for S. Think about it.
You have to rank Megas separately. We may have Megas in Pokemon like Charizard, Kangaskhan, or Manetric who only receive(d) OU usage thanks to their Megas, but we also have Pokemon like Garchomp, Tyranitar, and Lucario who were all OU before and are still very good in their own right. Take Scizor for example. Most people agree that Scizor and Mega Scizor are two entirely different creatures. Mega Scizor is physically bulkier than Skarmory, but without the ability to carry a Life Orb or Choice Band it's almost entirely outclassed by regular Scizor in an offensive role while it's a very good defensive Pokemon. In a similar but even more clear case, Mega Venusaur is an S-rank wall. Regular Venusaur was only A last gen when it had permanent sun and a much more brutal Sleep Powder, are we going to drop Mega Venusaur's place just because its regular and entirely different forme isn't as good? That doesn't make any sense to me.
The fact that you have to play the 50/50 game with guessing what Charizard might Mega-Evolve into already fulfills one of the S-Rank requirements: Unpredictability and Versatility
Allowing a dangerous Pokemon like Mega Charizard to either set up a Dragon Dance or set up Drought safely is already a huge detriment for the opposing player. But that's not all. Once Charizard mega evolves, its respective Mega Evolutions demand different approaches. While specially defensive Pokemon are the go-to answers for a Mega Charizard Y, Mega Charizard X doesn't give anything about them.
Also Venusaur, Gyarados, Heracross and Garchomp? Sure they might play slightly different but the same Pokemon that beat their base forms can manage to beat their Mega Evolved form. Venusaur despite Thick Fat despises powerful STAB Fire-Type Moves and Ice Type Moves. Talonflame remains a deadly threat to Venusaur, mega-evolved or not. Gyarados does lose its 4x weakness to Electric Type moves but Rotom-W and bulky Water-Type Pokemon remain solid switch-ins into Gyarados. Rotom-W can either tank an Earthquake from Mega Gyarados and Volt Switch out and bring in a faster threatening Pokemon, such as Terrakion, or it can Volt Switch on the Mega Gyarados as it decides to Dragon Dance and bring in an appropriate answer, such as Ferrothorn. Heracross ... I don't see how it plays any differently. It still struggles to get past its usual answers such as Skarmory or Talonflame. Garchomp does hold some validity for S-Rank as physically Defensive Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Ferrothorn will not appreciate Draco Meteor or Fire Blast respectively.
I agree. Pokemon that aren't viable in OU should have their mega's ranked instead. These pokemon would still have to be OU considering they switch in battle, but their regular forms and mega forms should be ranked accordingly on the ranking thread. Why not do this? They are essentially separate forms, and play very differently. Separating them on the viability thread, would just help newer players figure out what is truly viable about these pokemon. In the case of pokemon in which there megas and regular form are both OU viable, then it is even more important to rank them separately for the purpose of being thorough, and assesing there different strengths. I would argue that they are almost different pokemon, not just the same pokemon with different items, and for this reason should be ranked differently. Don't read this as they should be tiered differently, because I don't think we should do that.
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