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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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People have discussed this issue before, actually. It was in early 4th gen with Porygon-Z, a Normal type with Adaptability. Even with that level of power it was considered something of a failure. Ah, the days of early speculation of any given gen are always silly in retrospect. :)
Hyper beam is always a no no. It's just an invitation for someone to bring in a setup sweeper and get a free turn to sweep your team. Besides, you do more damage in the same amount of turns with 2 dark pulses.
It wouldn't be worth it. Hyper Beam has that nasty recharge turn, which not only gives the opponent a free turn to set up on Greninja, but also gives them an easy opportunity to KO it. You're basically going to lose your Greninja if you use Hyper Beam.
Plus, it can't hit anything super effectively, which makes it inferior to stuff like Hydro Pump.
Oh, and Porygon-Z's gimmick with Hyper Beam was that it could OHKO Blissey. It wasn't that useful, and required Modest, a Life Orb, and a Nasty Plot Boost. Better to just 2HKO with Tri Attack.
So you're saying either you get forced out, or you run Shadow Sneak and force him out. I don't see how that isn't profitable for you?
Hyper Beam could be useable as a last powerful hit before you go down. That way you avoid the recharge turn and maximize your damage output for that one turn. Mega Venusaur without SpDef EV's gets 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse + Hyper Beam, but specially defensive sets need more prior damage. It could work semi well as a sort of wallbreaker, but you're probably gonna sacrifice Greninja in the process.
The problem is, Breloom doesn't have to switch out; it is entirely free to drop a Spore on you before leaving.
As for Hyper Beam, how is that going to work? If Greninja outspeeds, you're still stuck with a recharge time, meaning that something REALLY scary gets to come in and set up (MegaLucario thanks you kindly for the free SD). If it doesn't outspeed, it's not gonna survive whatever the opponent is going to hit it with. It's not. Period. Especially if you're using it as a sacrifical lamb.
The only situation there where Hyper Beam won't screw you in a big way is if you kill yourself with residual or LO damage in the process, and setting that up is far more trouble than it's going to be worth considering that you could just run an extra attacking move.
So, best case scenario you kill yourself after the Beam. Most likely scenario, you die to priority. Worst case scenario, you give something a free switch and a chance to set up. Doesn't sound worth it to me.
No. It really couldn't. Hyper Beam not only leaves you wide open after use but hits literally nothing super effectively and turns you into the god awful normal type. You know what else Mega Venusaur is 2HKO'd by? Extrasensory. And that doesn't require your team to potentially get screwed over the next turn.
If you're suggesting that you only use Hyper Beam when Greninja's HP is low enough to die to Life Orb recoil then you're sacrificing a precious move slot for a move that you will use LITERALLY ONCE that hits nothing for super effective.
Just do what most people would do and run coverage moves to hit specific threats. Hyper Beam isn't just a "no-no" it's a NEVER EVER (unless you're Adaptability Porygon-Z, but even then you generally end up regretting it)
You get off a big hit with Hyper Beam before you get killed off. Ofcourse you should only consider this when you don't need Greninja anymore. A Protean Life Orb Hyper Beam hits pretty damn hard and has good neutral coverage with Hydro Pump, and if it nets you an important 2HKO you wouldn't get otherwise then Greninja already did its job. Also, Breloom gets OHKO'd by Ice Beam, so it has to Mach Punch or predict and risk getting killed without doing anything. Risky play in my opinion.
Greninja 2HKOs so many things already with the appropriate move. Why would you need to run a move that high risk when you only intend to use it ONCE over a move with more sustainability and provide SE coverage? What does Greninja KO with Hyper Beam that he doesn't with something that he learns (bearing in mind that he gets STAB Hidden Power) that would make you think about running it?
I'm genuinely asking because all I can think of is Rotom-W and even he can be 2HKO'd by HP Grass and possibly Dark Pulse depending on his set/EV spread.
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I'm not saying that you should use it, just that it's not completely unviable. Not many pokes can use a 225 base power move, so it's a small niche. It also hits a wider variety of pokes really hard than a specific Hidden Power or any other coverage move really. Only Steel/Rock/Ghost resists it, of which the latter two Greninja easily handles in general. Again, it's a sacrificial move pretty much like Explosion. You kinda have to see it that way. Explosion isn't a great move after the 5th gen nerf, but it's not completely unviable either. That's what I was saying.
No, it's pretty unviable.
OR. You could just run a coverage attack and hit the thing in question for more (or comparable) damage anyway without needing to be at >10% HP first?
Super Effective 80 BP attacks like Extrasensory or Dark Pulse have the equivalent of 160 power and don't require you to recharge
Super Effective Hidden Power has the equivalent of 120 power, doesn't recharge and doesn't require you to to kill yourself to be considered useful
(This is without factoring STAB obviously)
Coverage Move > Suicide. When there is literally no reason to EVER use it, nonviable is exactly what it is.
Have you seen Greninja's special movepool? It's good enough that he isn't forced to rely on Normal for coverage and even if it wasn't, you still shouldn't use Hyper Beam.
Explosion has 100BP on Hyper Beam, instantly kills the user ALWAYS so it can be used like a U-Turn of sorts, and doesn't leave you wide open the following turn. That's why it is still considered somewhat useful.
Hyper Beam is nothing like Explosion and should never ever even be considered on anything (OK, maybe Porygon-Z).
Even Mega Gardevoir and Aurorus would do better by Spamming Hyper Voice/ Tri Attack and their Hyper Beams do 30% more damage from their abilities, actually have SE coverage and get STAB. That is a testament to just how bad the move is.
What we're trying to say is that Hyper Beam and their ilk are awful. Never use them.
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Explosion, unlike second-turn recharge moves, doesn't give your opponent a free turn to do whatever he/she has in mind.
Let's just make a comparison.
Explosion: 250 BP Move unstabbed. One Turn move. Your Pokemon dies in one Turn. No free turn to your opponent. You can use it to sack one of your opponent's mons and you will give him no free DD, SD, Nasty Plot, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Autotomize... the list goes on.
Hyper Beam and siblings: 225 BP Move When stabbed. Two turns move. Your Pokemon dies the turn after he attacks or the one after that (if your opponent is so dumb not to have something to outspeed and OHKO after a free switch in and a free set-up turn, then he's... well, dumb and he deserves a second HB).
It packs less power, stabbed or unstabbed, gives up momentum, you have no switch in... HB and similar cases are not even in the same league as explosion. They're a step further than healing wave, though. But only because we're talking 'bout single battles I guess.
This comparison is kinda pointless. Greninja gets Hyper Beam, not Explosion. Ofcourse you can argue that Explosion is better than Hyper Beam. I can also argue that your free-turn argument to setup makes no sense as you're letting Greninja escape when you have a free shot to kill it. Explosion also kills you instantly, even if it kills the opponent you have a double down which isn't beneficial either. If you explode on a Ghost you're screwed as well. Again, pointless comparison that really doesn't add to the point. I never said it was a good option, but at least I'm not 100% biased like everyone else posting here (about Hyper Beam). It's good to be open towards different ideas, even when they don't seem that great. Just saying "Hyper Beam is god awful" isn't really adding much to the discussion.
Why is anybody talking about explosion? I wasn't even aware Greninja could learn explosion, and I don't know why anyone would consider putting it on Greninja. Hyper Beam is set up bait, and very rarely makes any sense on any pokemon, even with STAB. Hydro Cannon is an option, and it might actually come in handy over Hydro Pump/surf/whatever water stab ur using, but there's a reason nobody uses it. All that said, I'd choose Hydro Cannon before Hyper Beam anyday
My answer was to this statement:
To me, Explosion is much more viable than Hyper Beam, even factoring in Greninja's protean. My comparison was about the moves as they stands, as you might use them in similar situation: you absolutely need to get rid of one mon and you have no other way to do that anyway. Well, I guess Explosion is useful on Trick Room teams that use Uxie/Azelf to set and then explode to get you a free switch-in. To me, Hyper Beam has one and only use: final 1 on 1 (or 2 on 1, but your other mon is a death fodder to the last standing on the opposite side) when you can't OHKO a target with no other move. As greninja doesn't get explosion (you have a good point about Greninja not getting Explosion, but as I said it was just a mere moves analysis), let's stick with standard Greninja: you really need scald/surf/hydro pump and ice beam. Then, if you want to have room for Hyper Beam, you basically need to drop U-turn or the last moveslot consisting of Dark Pulse/Hidden Power of choice/Extrasensory (I personally run extrasensory as ice beam is more than enough mach punch bait) for that only scenario. I can't see any other scenario to run Hyper Beam or where it will be more useful than one of those coverage moves, that's all, and sacrificing a coverage move for HB is a waste on greninja in my honest opinion. Greninja wants to maximize coverage and effectiveness thanks to protean, and, again, in my honest opinion, HB goes in the opposite direction.
Hyper Beam is god awful because it provides zero coverage alongside Greninja's already decent movepool to the point where it is, in fact, nonviable.
And you're the one that brought up the Explosion comparison. We're not saying Greninja can learn Explosion; only that there is a reason that at least some pokemon use Explosion, but literally no one uses Hyper Beam. Ever. Not even the pokemon who can potentially bring it up to 292.2 BP (Mega Gardevoir/Aurorus) or even 300 BP (Porygon-Z, who usually runs Tri Attack instead).
Don't run Hyper Beam on 'ninja. He has better attacks he could be running anyway. As has been said Hyper Beam is strong, but the power means nothing when his coverage moves do comparable if not more damage without anywhere near as much risk.
Greninja can run U-Turn in place of hoping for suicide moves anyway.
If we can deduce that there is no instance where in Hyper Beam is useful over (insert coverage option), and hence is not worth using, would that not be considered conductive to discussion?
"double down which isn't beneficial either."
Dual Screens-> Explosion is a thing. As is Trick Room-> Explosion. (Not a great thing, but a thing) My point being that suicide tactics only tend to work when you die afterwards. Otherwise you just leave yourself exposed. Not that Greninja learns any of those. But, still double down is what you're hoping for in those cases.
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Tbh all I've read from you is completely biased and not based on anything. Everything you're saying comes down to "omg Hyper Beam is garbage don't use it". I wonder if you've even tested Hyper Beam Greninja at all. Ofcourse you can use other coverage moves. I showed an example where Bold Mega Venusaur dies to a Dark Pulse on the switch + a Hyper Beam on the next turn. Ofcourse you can use Extrasensory instead. Worth noting though that Extrasensory only has 120 base power after Protean and really is only beneficial against Mega Venusaur/Conkeldurr in OU. Specific Hidden Powers are even a lot weaker and don't hit that many threats hard, just to give another example. Hyper Beam maxes out at 225 base power and hits every type barring Steel/Rock/Ghost really hard. That's a pretty significant difference. Just because it's different from what people normally use doesn't mean it is "god awful". Please.
It looks like you completely missed out on the fact that you can do nothing but watch as your opponent sends out ____ setup sweeper, sets up on your recharge turn and proceeds to sweep your team.
Seriously, you don't need to test Hyper beam to tell it's bad. On the contrary, if you had tested it, you'd know it isn't worth it.
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If you want a pokemon with protean who's bulky, give AV kecleon a shot. He has a gigantic movepool to abuse it with and can even do stuff like survive a super-effective STAB shadow ball from a m-alakazam that traced protean.
It's based on the fact that a super effective coverage move does comparable if not more damage without having to recharge and gives superior coverage? As I've said like three times now? If that doesn't make something awful, what does? Just because you can run a move doesn't mean you should if the move is riskier with fewer benefits than his other options.
What's so great about 255 BP? Greninja can achieve close to that or higher with SE coverage. SE coverage that doesn't shut him down for one turn.
I asked before what Hyper Beam could hit that Greninja couldn't already. I still haven't thought of anything. Why would you run a move that is, at it's absolute BEST, going to be used once when you can just run something that can hit for equivalent damage without REQUIRING that you die the following turn? If you have no reason to run it and it has nothing but drawbacks when compared to his other potential options then why would you surrender a precious move slot for it? Running a super effective coverage move will benefit Greninja more than suicide option that doesn't actually hit anything that he couldn't deal with already. Especially if that move will either kill you or leave you wide open the following turn.
If you come up with a list of pokemon Greninja can outspeed at least 2HKO with just Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse then add the pokemon he can deal with when you add Hyper Beam onto there, there is no improvement. By contrast, Extrasensory can allow Greninja to bypass his biggest walls; Mega Venusaur and Tentacruel as well as fighting types like Conkeldurr. Hidden Power Fire lets him break through Ferrothorn and OHKO (Mega) Scizor, HP Grass lets him hit Rotom-W Grass Knot lets him hit other opposing bulky waters for greater damage as well as Tyranitar and Hippowdon for the equivalent of Hydro Pump but with more PP and perfect accuracy. Even U-Turn gives him something do before tagging out and is useful against Assault Vest and Specially defensive 'mons.
So again I ask, what does Hyper Beam hit that Greninja couldn't already? If you can tell me a single instance where in Hyper Beam is actually the superior option then maybe I will concede.
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Just for a little bit of Devils Advocacy.
The main arguments against Hyperbeam are:
1. You can 2HKO most things with another coverage move
2. Someone will use the next turn to set up
The counter to these are
1. You might get OHKOd yourself in those 2 turns you take or give them time to heal up/Switcharoo/Sub/Wish/etc. Also Greninja doesn't have SE moves on ALL pokes, the best you can get is neutral coverage which doesn't 2 HKO a lot of threats. So weaken to 1/3 or 1/4 with Ice Beam and finish with Hyperbeam sounds like a sure way to KO someone thinking they can survive 2-3 more hits.
2. That's assuming you didn't already KO their set up sweeper or that their set up sweeper is fast enough to switch in, boost AND OHKO you before you can use Hyper Beam or a coverage move to OHKO it.
By no means do I think it is the GREASTEST thing ever. But is it really unviable if it's unexpected and can net a KO on something you couldn't KO before? I guess the real way to solve this would just be to run the calcs on what threats Hyperbeam would OHKO versus other coverage moves because so far everyones argument against it is also based on theory.
The main arguments against Hyperbeam are:
1. You can 2HKO most things with another coverage move
2. Someone will use the next turn to set up
The counter to these are
1. You might get OHKOd yourself in those 2 turns you take or give them time to heal up/Switcharoo/Sub/Wish/etc. Also Greninja doesn't have SE moves on ALL pokes, the best you can get is neutral coverage which doesn't 2 HKO a lot of threats. So weaken to 1/3 or 1/4 with Ice Beam and finish with Hyperbeam sounds like a sure way to KO someone thinking they can survive 2-3 more hits.
2. That's assuming you didn't already KO their set up sweeper or that their set up sweeper is fast enough to switch in, boost AND OHKO you before you can use Hyper Beam or a coverage move to OHKO it.
By no means do I think it is the GREASTEST thing ever. But is it really unviable if it's unexpected and can net a KO on something you couldn't KO before? I guess the real way to solve this would just be to run the calcs on what threats Hyperbeam would OHKO versus other coverage moves because so far everyones argument against it is also based on theory.
Sigh. No move you mentioned has better neutral coverage than Hyper Beam. SE coverage only applies when the move is actually super-effective (as obvious as it sounds, you still missed that). Extrasensory helps against three pokes, I forgot Tentacruel because you rarely ever see that thing. Against everything else, Hyper Beam does almost double the damage. This applies not only to Extrasensory, but any 4th move next to Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse. If you really have that much trouble finding scenarios where Hyper Beam is beneficial (and then I'm assuming you even tried in the first place, which I honestly doubt), then you can think about Bold Mega Venusaur which I mentioned before, OHKO'ing Gyarados after SR, getting the 2HKO against SpDef Rotom-W after a Dark Pulse, OHKO'ing Azumarill after SR, taking out Gastrodon guaranteed... Also, it will often be your strongest move to go for before being taken down, which is one of its main attractions. Comparing it against coverage moves is silly, it works differently and therefore has a specific niche. I don't really feel like going on with this argument as arguing with biased people isn't fun and rather useless.
The only things I could think to run calcs on is Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 255-302 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 205-244 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bear in mind that these are vs min SpDef and that HP Grass will turn you into Grass type and hamper anything Rotom can do to you. And I'd prefer to keep my revenge killer/late game sweeper alive when I can.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rotom-W is OHKOd after SR with min SpDef BUT you're left wide open to attack by the following pokemon. And considering this is Greninja, that's probably the end of him HP Grass disposes Rotom-W without sacrificing him.
Meanwhile, if Hyper Beam fails to KO then you're left wide open to an attack and cannot switch.
Azumarill:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 325-383 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A 50% chance to OHKO after SR. But you will be left wide open after the first move.
Gyarados:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 218-257 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 437-520 (131.6 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 270-320 (81.3 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is offensive Gyara obviously.
Gastrodon is always OHKO'd by Grass Knot
OK so maybe Hyper Beam is the better move for if you're going to die anyway and has good coverage with water. But the thing is:
A- How can you reliably set that up?
B- Why couldn't you just switch/U-Turn into something that doesn't have to die?
C- Water/Ice/Grass has perfect neutral coverage so you have one move slot left for hitting whatever thing(s) you have problems with super effectively
D- Why would I sacrifice a move slot for a move that I can probably use ONCE; if Im lucky and kill myself afterwards?
E- If they switch, Hyper Beam could screw you over
F- If they don't die Hyper Beam WILL screw you over
There are pokemon out there who can nearly double Hyper Beam's power and even they dont use it. Doesn't that say anything to you? And before you say anything about coverage; Porygon-Z and Mega Gardevoir can have perfect neutral coverage.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 255-302 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 205-244 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bear in mind that these are vs min SpDef and that HP Grass will turn you into Grass type and hamper anything Rotom can do to you. And I'd prefer to keep my revenge killer/late game sweeper alive when I can.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rotom-W is OHKOd after SR with min SpDef BUT you're left wide open to attack by the following pokemon. And considering this is Greninja, that's probably the end of him HP Grass disposes Rotom-W without sacrificing him.
Meanwhile, if Hyper Beam fails to KO then you're left wide open to an attack and cannot switch.
Azumarill:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 325-383 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A 50% chance to OHKO after SR. But you will be left wide open after the first move.
Gyarados:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 218-257 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 437-520 (131.6 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hyper Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 270-320 (81.3 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is offensive Gyara obviously.
Gastrodon is always OHKO'd by Grass Knot
OK so maybe Hyper Beam is the better move for if you're going to die anyway and has good coverage with water. But the thing is:
A- How can you reliably set that up?
B- Why couldn't you just switch/U-Turn into something that doesn't have to die?
C- Water/Ice/Grass has perfect neutral coverage so you have one move slot left for hitting whatever thing(s) you have problems with super effectively
D- Why would I sacrifice a move slot for a move that I can probably use ONCE; if Im lucky and kill myself afterwards?
E- If they switch, Hyper Beam could screw you over
F- If they don't die Hyper Beam WILL screw you over
There are pokemon out there who can nearly double Hyper Beam's power and even they dont use it. Doesn't that say anything to you? And before you say anything about coverage; Porygon-Z and Mega Gardevoir can have perfect neutral coverage.
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You know there's a reason even stuff like Mega Charizard Y would not resort to Blast Burn despite the greater KOing potential. Leaving yourself wide open whether you KOed the target or not is hardly a worthy trade off. Oh, saving Hyper Beam until it's almost dead? Are you saying you have only 3 moves to work with until you're ready to kick the bucket? The only way Hyper Beam won't give up a free turn is if you did not KO the opponent and they KO you.
So you're telling me I have this awesomely strong attack, but the only way I don't risk screwing myself over when using it is if I go out in a bang but not KO my target anyway? Yeah, Hyper Beam is not good.
So you're telling me I have this awesomely strong attack, but the only way I don't risk screwing myself over when using it is if I go out in a bang but not KO my target anyway? Yeah, Hyper Beam is not good.
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