It'd have to switch into it, and at +6, it 2HKOs pretty much anything.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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No Pokemon is unstoppable, but Azumarill is strong enough to be near-unstoppable, which is why it should be A+.
Ben you need a complete argument for it perhaps with its performance against top threats etc. One sentence is not an argument we can really consider.
kairyu:
What I meant for the Genesect argument is that DDnite typically sets up a DD and takes some damage in the process. Genesect is then able to finish off a damaged Dnite.
You also say "fairies pretty much all suck against him (exceptions include Togekiss, Clefable, and Azumarill depending on the set)". These are some of the most common fairies in the metagame so that argument doesn't really make sense. Also gonna mention that Scarf Greninja is also used quite a bit.
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I never said that Fairies suck against Dragonite. They're his biggest weakness.
If you get off a belly drum, your best bet is a KO--or two if the opponent can't hit you back hard enough with anything that resists water. This is because Azumarill is sloooow. One KO is near-unstoppable, but the sweep usually ends there. For comparison, Mega-Banette can usually get one KO, and doesn't need a free turn to set up unless you lack protect.
I was talking to kairyu there. I will edit that and make it clear.
Wouldn't Kyurem-B be a good check as it threatens the OHKO with Fusion Bolt? Sure, it'd still take a good hit from +6 Aqua Jet, but Azumarill can't try a Play Rough against it otherwise because of its poor Speed.
Ben, I think he was talking to me.
Sorry Starmaster, didn't mean to sound argumentative, just saying that unless its running a choice scarf AND ice beam, there's not much a Genesect can do to a set up Dragonite. If it does, you're right
As for the fairies comment, most dragonite sets have only one coverage move. If its EQ you're walled by Togekiss, if its fire punch you're walled by Azumarill, but you're never walled by both. I threw in Clefable because it can run unaware, but even then you can get around it. Most other fairies I love seeing because it means a reliable way to set up weakness policy.
For Greninja, yeah, never switch a Dragonite into a greninja. But you'd never switch a Talonflame into a Ttar or Garchomp into a Mamoswine either. After one DD, you never have to worry about Greninja again (unless for some reason its running a sash, but that almost never happens). I'd be more worried about getting revenge killed by Mamoswine than getting OHKO'd by greninja. I understand why Dragonite's currently only A, but I think it should be A+
Just because Pokemon have counters doesn't mean that they shouldn't be higher ranked.
For example, Rotom-W shits on Talonflame, but since Talonflame has great general utility, it's still A+.
Talonflame's niche rarely puts it up against Rotom, and if it does, it can usually U-Turn or switch out before getting hit by a hydro pump. There are several pokemon that can KO a weakened Azumarill, and unlike Talonflame, it can't really just switch out or it loses all its power behind its aqua jets. Its got utility, that's why its A, but its also got flaws
fair enough. Honestly I'm not completely sure what the precise difference between A+ and A is anyway, so I'm not sure why we're arguing about this. I've said my 2 bits, and if Dragonite stays A, I won't lose any sleep over it. It doesn't quite have a large number of checks, but the ones it does have are common, so I see where you're coming from
But Azumarill can also opt for the Choice Band set, which is more manageable, but still very deadly.
This thing has been OU since it's introduction into the metagame and it hasn't been OU for multiple generations because of a single niche in Rapid Spinning. Starmie is a solid offensive Pokemon, boasting a base 100 Special Attack and blistering base 115 Speed. With great coverage in moves such as Hydro Pump, Psyshock, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt and a potential Analytic boost, Starmie is definitely a relevant offensive threat. While Excadrill is arguably a much more reliable spinner, Starmie holds many merits over Excadrill that prevent it from being out-classed.
Starmie has great assets in its typing, having resistances to Water, Fire, Ice and Fighting and access to Natural Cure + Recover. This allows Starmie to switch-in comfortably into many moves and with some investment in bulk, Starmie can effectively be a great offensive pivot for certain team archetypes.
While the massive Speed creep introduced in Gen VI may seem like a downer for Starmie, there's actually a hidden gift behind this. Because Starmie has Analytic, this allows Starmie to hit opponents with powerful moves that will certainly leave dents. One can actually choose to drop a Speed EVs to put into bulk so that Starmie can survive certain 1v1 scenarios and come out on top by KOing the opposition with an Analytic boosted move.
Definitely got quite the buff in Generation VI thanks to Defog mechanics becoming more useful, Excadrill being re-introduced into OU and Weakness Policy. However, I'm a little hesitant to place in A+ Rank though ; however, I'm on the fence with this one. Despite Defog being a great solution to Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, Dragonite is severely reliant on Multiscale to effectively be the dangerous threat it is. Having a guaranteed Dragon Dance is one of Dragonite's largest merits thanks to Multiscale and losing it before setting up is definitely an issue and leaves it severely outclassed to things such as Mega Charizard X. Somebody argued that Dragonite boasts unrivaled versatility. But one has to take into consideration just how effective and valid certain variants are. Dragonite can certainly run various threats but that does not make him incredibly threatening because many of the sets have much of the same answers. And let's be honest, the two only really utilized sets are Dragon Dance and Choice Band because of their usefulness. StallNite is difficult to utilize and Zygarde probably could run a better ParaShuffler set. A+ Rank is certainly a difficult tier to reach because it requires the Pokemon to possess incredible offensive prowess which Dragonite definitely has access to ; it's just a question of how reliably and effectively it can be used on average.
Brave Bird is simply the epitome of Staraptor and with a boost from STAB and its ability Reckless, Staraptor is honestly a top-tier wall-breaker. Staraptor has an easier time with hazard control because of Defog mechanics ; this increases his longevity significantly. Despite the incredibly fast Pokemon that roam the OU tier in Generation VI, there are just as many that prefer to run bulk over speed allowing Staraptor's base 100 Speed to actually legitimately useful. Now put into account that Staraptor can easily 2HKO a majority of the OU Metagame and we have a Pokemon that is definitely deserving of a rank higher than C-Rank. Landorus-T, Gliscor and Slowbro all face a potential 2HKO from this thing which says quite a lot about its raw strength.
Staraptor is also one of the handful of viable scarfers that can run U-Turn ; this is important in this Generation because Choiced susceptibility is more of a liability than ever considering all of the threats that can easily take advantage of Choice Locked Pokemon and sweep a team clean. An extremely powerful Brave Bird and Double Edge in tandem with Scarf and Base 100 Speed allow Staraptor to clean late game quite well if given the right opportunity.
Azumarill is definitely a great Pokemon due to its typing and ability Huge Power, which allows Azumarill to hit like a truck. However, Belly Drum does not make it an A+ Rank. It's low base speed is a hindrance and the fact that Azumarill needs 51% and higher for it to work is just not reliable enough. Plus, anything that can outspeed and tank Aqua Jet is capable of taking Azumarill down. I feel that Azumarill deserves a chance at A+ Rank as a solid pivot Pokemon. Fairy and Water is incredible boasting amazing resistances and that fact that it isn't a set-up fodder for offensive Pokemon makes it so much more deadly. Assault Vest Azumarill is an interesting set capable of KOing problematic Pokemon for teams.
I understand the arguments for Azumaril at A+, but it isn't like it is completely unstoppable, I can think of several relevant pokemon that handle him even after a boost (bulky Rotom-Wash being the most obvious). Ultimately it is a very good pokemon, but I would argue its weaknesses (low speed, not particularly bulky, needs to be above half health for belly drum) are glaring enough to keep it from A+, I would go A-/B+ range based on the potential havoc it can bring. When it comes out just don't panic, it isn't difficult to do more than 50% damage to it, even off of a stab move on a support mon, most pokemon will have something they can do on the "free turn" belly drum gives you
Its amazing how even if you disagree with some of the things someone says, when they add sprites and colored ranks in an organized format, all your arguments just leave your mind and all you can think is "Gee, that looks real peeeeerrrrrrrrtty."B-Rank
This thing has been OU since it's introduction into the metagame and it hasn't been OU for multiple generations because of a single niche in Rapid Spinning. Starmie is a solid offensive Pokemon, boasting a base 100 Special Attack and blistering base 115 Speed. With great coverage in moves such as Hydro Pump, Psyshock, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt and a potential Analytic boost, Starmie is definitely a relevant offensive threat. While Excadrill is arguably a much more reliable spinner, Starmie holds many merits over Excadrill that prevent it from being out-classed.
Starmie has great assets in its typing, having resistances to Water, Fire, Ice and Fighting and access to Natural Cure + Recover. This allows Starmie to switch-in comfortably into many moves and with some investment in bulk, Starmie can effectively be a great offensive pivot for certain team archetypes.
While the massive Speed creep introduced in Gen VI may seem like a downer for Starmie, there's actually a hidden gift behind this. Because Starmie has Analytic, this allows Starmie to hit opponents with powerful moves that will certainly leave dents. One can actually choose to drop a Speed EVs to put into bulk so that Starmie can survive certain 1v1 scenarios and come out on top by KOing the opposition with an Analytic boosted move.
A-Rank
Definitely got quite the buff in Generation VI thanks to Defog mechanics becoming more useful, Excadrill being re-introduced into OU and Weakness Policy. However, I'm a little hesitant to place in A+ Rank though ; however, I'm on the fence with this one. Despite Defog being a great solution to Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, Dragonite is severely reliant on Multiscale to effectively be the dangerous threat it is. Having a guaranteed Dragon Dance is one of Dragonite's largest merits thanks to Multiscale and losing it before setting up is definitely an issue and leaves it severely outclassed to things such as Mega Charizard X. Somebody argued that Dragonite boasts unrivaled versatility. But one has to take into consideration just how effective and valid certain variants are. Dragonite can certainly run various threats but that does not make him incredibly threatening because many of the sets have much of the same answers. And let's be honest, the two only really utilized sets are Dragon Dance and Choice Band because of their usefulness. StallNite is difficult to utilize and Zygarde probably could run a better ParaShuffler set. A+ Rank is certainly a difficult tier to reach because it requires the Pokemon to possess incredible offensive prowess which Dragonite definitely has access to ; it's just a question of how reliably and effectively it can be used on average.
B-Rank
Brave Bird is simply the epitome of Staraptor and with a boost from STAB and its ability Reckless, Staraptor is honestly a top-tier wall-breaker. Staraptor has an easier time with hazard control because of Defog mechanics ; this increases his longevity significantly. Despite the incredibly fast Pokemon that roam the OU tier in Generation VI, there are just as many that prefer to run bulk over speed allowing Staraptor's base 100 Speed to actually legitimately useful. Now put into account that Staraptor can easily 2HKO a majority of the OU Metagame and we have a Pokemon that is definitely deserving of a rank higher than C-Rank. Landorus-T, Gliscor and Slowbro all face a potential 2HKO from this thing which says quite a lot about its raw strength.
Staraptor is also one of the handful of viable scarfers that can run U-Turn ; this is important in this Generation because Choiced susceptibility is more of a liability than ever considering all of the threats that can easily take advantage of Choice Locked Pokemon and sweep a team clean. An extremely powerful Brave Bird and Double Edge in tandem with Scarf and Base 100 Speed allow Staraptor to clean late game quite well if given the right opportunity.
A+ Rank
Azumarill is definitely a great Pokemon due to its typing and ability Huge Power, which allows Azumarill to hit like a truck. However, Belly Drum does not make it an A+ Rank. It's low base speed is a hindrance and the fact that Azumarill needs 51% and higher for it to work is just not reliable enough. Plus, anything that can outspeed and tank Aqua Jet is capable of taking Azumarill down. I feel that Azumarill deserves a chance at A+ Rank as a solid pivot Pokemon. Fairy and Water is incredible boasting amazing resistances and that fact that it isn't a set-up fodder for offensive Pokemon makes it so much more deadly. Assault Vest Azumarill is an interesting set capable of KOing problematic Pokemon for teams.
Anyway, I personally think Starmie is short of B because Aegislash and Gengar both spin block it and stop it dead in its tracks. Not to mention all the competition it gets from new defoggers and Excadrill, but like any good discussion, this is arguable.
Dragonite is a messy case, and despite all the arguments posted, I think it will indeed remain A. Oh well. GG to everyone who played.
Staraptor is one I'm still testing, and my initial thoughts are that while you get a more powerful BB, I don't know why anybody would use it instead of Talonflame. Its coverage is great, and it makes a great partner to Talonflame, but its too slow to avoid revenge killers. What that means rank-wise I'm still deciding, but at the moment I was thinking B-
Azumarill I'm sticking with just A on. It does its niche of priority aqua jets well, but when it tries to expand to do more it faces a lot of trouble. You summed up its flaws of being slow and having plenty of checks for its aqua jet fine, so I won't mention those, but I don't think giving pokes like Charizard and Genesect a hard time is enough to warrant moving up a rank. Most of the pokes it walls have coverage options that endanger it, the ability to set up before he switches in, or are pivots themselves and can just switch in ferrothorn or Venusaur. I like AV Azumarill (I personally feel band is better done by Talonflame), but not for A+.
Just my 2 cents! I promise to only cry a little if anybody disagrees :)
You have no way of knowing if it's going to set up. The opponent could instead alternate between Play Rough and Waterfall until all it's counters are gone before setting up with a belly drum. And both of those moves do significant damage pre-BD due to Azumarill's massive attack stat.
You need a Pokemon that resists both Waterfall/Aqua Jet and Play Rough to safely switch into Azumarill, and such options are few and far between since water and fairy have great coverage (water hitting fire types and fairy hitting dragon types). Mega Venasaur, Ferrothorn, and Tentacruel are the only 3 OU-viable Pokemon that resist both of Azumarill's STABS. Ferrothorn is a hard counter. And Tentacruel's lack of recovery and poor defense stat means it can only take so many resisted hits.
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I already wrote a few things about why I think Dragonite should stay in A, and I guess the argument isnt exactly of great importance but I'm interested to hear your opinion on a couple of things:
1) Do you think the threat of dragonite is in his pure sweeping capability or his versatility as a defensive/offensive mon? If the latter, do you think paralysis shuffling is truly a role which is reliable enough and strong enough to see the A+ tier?
2) What particularly does dragonite do that is separate from other sweepers (not necessarily just other dragons) and what separates him from the A tier sweepers Gyarados/Mega Gyarados, Scizor/Mega Scizor (lol after asking this question I realise there aren't many dedicated sweepers in A tier, pretty much only gyarados and scizor and a lot of wallbreakers)
3) What does dragonite do on an equal level to A+ tier sweepers like Manaphy, Megazard X, Garchomp, Mega Pinsir etc
Not being rhetorical or sarcastic or anything, I think we should answer these questions before we consider moving Dragonite up to A+
I don't know why everyone thinks that Azumarill can keep switching in and out throughout the match and avoid taking any hits that will drop it to 50% or less. Belly Drum is, by far, the least reliable method of using Azumarill. If it even has a chance of reaching A+, it's definitely not because it can use a Belly Drum sweep set. Belly Drum should be more of a "If-The-Opportunity-Arises-Then-Click" option rather than the focal point of Azumarill. Azumarill's typing and power allow it to be so much more than a narrow-focused sweeper.
***** ***** ***** *****
Kairyu_Gen1 : I actually plan on using Staraptor soon as well lol
To answer your question, Talonflame falls short when it comes to raw strength. This prevents him from being an effective wall-breaker and more of a cleaner/revenge-killer.
For example
vs
***** ***** ***** *****
Kairyu_Gen1 : I actually plan on using Staraptor soon as well lol
To answer your question, Talonflame falls short when it comes to raw strength. This prevents him from being an effective wall-breaker and more of a cleaner/revenge-killer.
For example
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 83-98 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Conkeldurr is great, but honestly it is probably B+ material. It gained a lot with the generation changes, but Fairy - types like Azumarill and Mega Mawile are drawn in without proper attacks and easily shut down Conkeldurr with STAB Play Rough. It's still a huge asset to many teams because it can sort of play against the Volt Turn teams but, more importantly, it checks and even counters many prominent threats like Heatran and RotomW.
All righty.
1) Dragonite's main threat comes from his sweeping potential. Since the only pokemon I can think of that OHKO him are Greninja and Kyurem B, he can very reliably get off a DD, giving him an effective base 140 speed and base 225 atk, and often get more. After that, you need a priority or scarfed mon to out speed (I've come to really hate seeing Talonflame and Mamoswine in team preview). There's a couple mon's that can take hits and cause some problems back, but they can't really break his sweep as I treat Rotom-W and Ferrothorn as free set up (who cares if you're burned or seeded if you can alternate DD and roost til the your opponent [volt] switches out). DD sets are his best weapon imo, and those are the ones I think earn him the A+ rank. If shuffling were enough, then Zygarde would be higher than it is.
I'm gonna be a little bit confusing now, and say that his real threat is his versatility. You can't reliably have a check for dragonite, as you can't afford to just hit with SE attacks in case he has Weakness policy, you can't always just burn/paralyze him in case he has a lum berry, and that would give him a free turn you can't afford. You can't just set up in case it is a shuffling set, and you can't just assume the revenge kill in case he has extremespeed. His sweeping is what makes him dangerous, but its dangerous because of the versatility.
2) Gyarados has pretty much the same philosophy as Dragonite, have multiple viable sets, but your most dangerous one is the one that uses bulk to give you set up opportunities so you can sweep. Gyarados has things like intimidate that make it good at that, but Dragonite has Multiscale and roost, which imo is more than enough for it to be tiered a little higher than its dragon(like) friend from red/blue. As for Scizor, he's a little harder to directly compare to. Scizor lacks effective ways to boost its speed, but makes up for it with access to bullet punch. I'm not sure what I can say about scizor as I've never thought of him as a typical sweeper. More like a pivot that can boost with SD and cause mayhem.
3) Dragonite is most comparable to Charizard X, as they're both set up DD sweepers. Charizard is better in that its faster and stronger right off the bat, and is immune to burn, while Dragonite has much more reliable access to set up and if it fails to KO a poke, has a better chance at surviving. This argument has been done before, but with different dragons in Charizard's seat. Charizard's more consistent in that he'll make a difference whether he gets a boost or not, but Dragonite is more consistent at getting boosts. Manaphy is similar in that it uses bulk and recovery to give itself opportunities to set up, but like scizor, it doesn't have reliable ways of boosting its speed, and unlike scizor it doesn't have any priority. I'd say he's just as effective as manaphy because there are more threats that it can take out without having to take a hit or two, even if Manaphy can afford to take the hits more offten. Garchomp can take a few hits, and since it uses SD, 1 turn of set up is enough for sweeping purposes, and it is fast enough that it doesn't need to boost speed. But nobody's afraid of hitting Garchomp with an ice beam or a dazzling gleam, and no matter how many SD's Garchomp gets off, it will always be outsped and OHKO'd by Greninja and similar pokes. Pinsir only has so many options. It NEEDs quick attack, SD, and return to do its primary job, but with coverage, you have to choose who walls you. Plus, getting a SD is hardly a guarantee as a lot of pokes hit it hard, and it can't always afford that 1 turn of set up.
I'm not sure if you can say Dragonite's an "equal," but imo he's the best bulky set up sweeper there is. There's no clear cut line between A and A+, so I think it comes down to if you think its flaws make it less viable than the pokes listed in #3. I think they don't so I think it should be A+, but the fact that people CAN argue about it means there are arguments that say it shouldn't. Really, the difference between A+ and A is not that big of a deal, as if its A or above, its clearly viable and the only real way to know just how much is for you to test it yourself. If you think its still just an "A", it won't make that much of an effect on the meta game.
I strongly believe A is appropriate, but would mind answer those questions.
For 1, you actually bring a great idea of the parashuffler up as something that will need to be changed possibly for this Gen. Paralysis this Gen seems to be more crucial then ever, even with all the priority, giving a Lucario paralysis may be a great option in the long run as it would allow you to beat him out later, forcing him to rely on priority in most cases. While I agree it may not work enough to get him A rank, I still believe paralysis support is crucial this Gen as always.
For two, the only real thing that separates him from other sweepers is the ability to get a "free boost" as he can be vary comparable to A rank Gyarados. Both x4 weakness with good bulk (gyara's intimidate is always a bonus) and have good offensive STABs. Multiscale is his only true separating factor.
Finally for three, what he does on their level is remotely small in some ways. Yes, he probably is the best WP user, but most run DDance over agility, thus allowing for Zard X to boost along with you, ending you as he is faster. Then say if Gar comes in and attacks before the boost, he both breaks the multiscale and can force you to roost after taking him out due to outrage+rough skin damage., causing the revenge killer to come in, and that's negating the idea of him also being scarfed (which can be nullified with web, but its worth mentioning). Truthfully, if he lacks anything, its their immediate power and or speed when comparing him to the two dragons you stated.
Manaphy is faster in nature, yet bulky as well. You would probably boost first, going for a dance while Manaphy goes for a tail glow. I would hope you would be able to OHKO him then as he would most likely be able to break that scale then. So in relation to Manaphy, it might just be better boosting moves that make him better than Nite.
I believe my earlier statement on immediate power/speed covers Mega Pinsir as well.
so A rank? Yah. A+ rank? Not in my mind for some reason.
EDIT: ah, you commented to it too XD
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Nope, you don't need to switch in something that resists both azumarill's water and fairy attacks.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 93-109 (27.8 - 32.6%) -- 77.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are just a few examples of pokemon that can switch in on Azu and screw it over. We're not even talking about stuff that can revenge kill it. Azumarill is good, I'm not denying that but imo there are too many weaknesses that deny it a seat in the A+ tier.
Dragonite also has reliable recovery to maintain his multi-scale and general healing purposes. Dragonite also has a bigger offensive movepool, allowing him to even go mixed. I wouldn't mind seeing him in A+.
As for Azumarill, his new typing gives him a new STAB and some fancy new resistances. He's definitely viable in OU, but is he A+ material? I don't think so. Despite his great attacking stat (after huge power) and good defensive stats 100/80/80, Azumarill is extremely slow and has no good form of healing to capitalize on his bulk + typing. His two most commonly seen sets, CB set and Belly Drum set can leave holes to unprepared teams, but not enough for him to get to A+.
Nobody runs an Azumarill with no item. You should either run the calcs with Band or at +6 from Belly Drum. At +6, all of the above Pokemon are OHKOd so no they cannot switch in. That being said, the prevalence of Rotom-W makes it hard for Azumarill to get an A+ Rank, and I would give it an A Rank.
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