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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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No, no, you don't sound elitist. That's what I meant by not running into competent users yet.
I'd imagine it's there precisely for that.
I could defend its A ranking, but I think it falls just short because of the growing popularity of ghosts and flying threats. It's still scary as hell, but its bulk leaves a lot to be desired.
It hits hard as fuck.
Oh, you wanted an actual reason?
Uh.... hits hard as fuck. Its like Rampardos, but with actually usable defenses, speed, and typing. Its got a decent movepool, too, so it can hit almost anything you'd like it to be able to hit.
I'm on the fence about it being A, though. Attack is godlike, everything else is just okay. The fact that it gets checked by Talonflame and Aegislash isn't helping matters, either. Still, dat attack stat.... and it gets Bulk Up. If you really want a wallbreaker, BU Medicham hits hard as fuck.
There really isn't another reason. Between its ridiculous attack stat, strong STABs and excellent coverage options, Aegislash is one of the few things that can safely switch in and threaten it. Talonflame may force it out, but it has nothing safe to switch in on/will kill itself if it tries to Brave Bird:
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 362-426 (117.1 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 234-276 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 253-298 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 181-213 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If this thing had just a bit more speed it'd be amazing. I don't think 100 base speed is enough to hold it back from A though.
I really think Hydreigon should be listed here under B rank. With the dark buff Hydreigons dark pulse is now ripping through part of the metagame along with Draco meteor. It can run many different sets like mixed with superpower, or choiced. It only really has 2 flaws: fairy types and it's speed. Fairy types now have a 4x advantage over the guy, and even if it has flash cannon it isn't enough to kill most fairies. It's speed, while not bad, just misses the 100 benchmark it needs. With these flaws, it also has many strengths which I think makes it perfect for b rank.
Hydreigon can get past Fairies with Life Orb Iron Tail and a Mild Nature. It's inaccurate, but it works. Sylveon, Florges and even Togekiss get 2HKO'd iirc.
I agree. It faces competition from Latios, but it is supported by a variety of strong niches to earn it's spot onto teams, especially as a choice scarfer.
It's got amazing coverage options in Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and the ability to go mixed with Superpower. It may miss out of STAB Psyshock to hit Mega Venusuar, but at least it's not depending on HP Fire. Not to mention U-turn.
It's resistant to pursuit, as opposed to being weak to it. This means it has to worry much less about mind games with Tyranitar and Scizor. It's really, really annoying when you have to play that conservatively with your Latios just because of a couple of pokemon.
And, as you said, it is a great check to the many ghost roaming around in OU. Gengar can give it problems if it's not scarfed, but I believe the Choice Scarf should be the main set this generation anyway.
I would like to begin a vaporeon discussion. I think it should have a B- rank; it has outstanding bulk and an excellent and diverse support movepool with scald as an excellent stab. It faces competition from jellicent and rotom, but I argue that it has valuable niches that they dont. Vaporeon can pass huge HP subs (and can pass acid armors, although this is less common) vaporeon also gets great value out of wish with its massive health pool. Add the toxic stall set and vaporeon is more than capable of of earning its keep on a variety of teams.
Vaporeon for B 2014!!!
Vaporeon for B 2014!!!
Well, this is probably going to be laughed at. But I'm nominating Mega Heracross for A/A+ as nothing else hits as hard in the whole tier.
Running Swords dance/bullet seed/pin missile/rock blast
If he can force a switch out and get off a sword dance he can OHKO almost anything in the game including a fully invested mega-venusaur.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 405-480 (111.2 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 410-485 (99 - 117.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 350-420 (99.4 - 119.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 400-480 (101.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are some pokemon who can take a hit though, mainly Skarmory who so far is the only pokemon I've found that can switch into a healthy pinsir, take a hit and win (Assuming it's carrying brave bird of course)
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 225-270 (67.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aegislash also can also take a hit but doesn't deal much damage back and the whole thing turns into mind games between sword dance and kings shield and can really go either way, but the odds are somewhat in Pinsirs favour.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252- SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So as taking hits from it is clearly out of the question, the options are to outspeed and revenge kill/cripple it, but he is surprisingly bulky.
Talonflame obviously comes to mind here and is a free revenge kill.
Rotom-W can outspeed and burn it.
Any prankster can obviously outspeed and burn/t-wave.
Latios does a decent job of it. 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 348-410 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
His fellow mega pokemon in char Y and pinsir also beat him out head to head.
Those are pretty much the only choices from what I've seen so far. Then you've got a long list of "almosts" that might be able to kill him if there's other damage on to Heracross.
Genesect can outspeed but not OHKO even with flamethrower, +1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 266-314 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja does not come close, 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran can almost kill with a full Sp.atk build, but that's quite rare 252 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Alakazam 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 288-342 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So really, you need either something from the first list or something from the second list with another faster pokemon to finish him off.
Overall Heracross is not unstoppable, but outside of a very specific list then he's practically guaranteed at least one kill and hits harder than anything else in the OU metagame. His ability to blow up mega venusaur by itself places him in a very small group of pokemon. But he does have fairly common counters and therefore I think that somewhere in the A rankings is the right place for him.
Running Swords dance/bullet seed/pin missile/rock blast
If he can force a switch out and get off a sword dance he can OHKO almost anything in the game including a fully invested mega-venusaur.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 405-480 (111.2 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 410-485 (99 - 117.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 350-420 (99.4 - 119.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 400-480 (101.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are some pokemon who can take a hit though, mainly Skarmory who so far is the only pokemon I've found that can switch into a healthy pinsir, take a hit and win (Assuming it's carrying brave bird of course)
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 225-270 (67.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aegislash also can also take a hit but doesn't deal much damage back and the whole thing turns into mind games between sword dance and kings shield and can really go either way, but the odds are somewhat in Pinsirs favour.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252- SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So as taking hits from it is clearly out of the question, the options are to outspeed and revenge kill/cripple it, but he is surprisingly bulky.
Talonflame obviously comes to mind here and is a free revenge kill.
Rotom-W can outspeed and burn it.
Any prankster can obviously outspeed and burn/t-wave.
Latios does a decent job of it. 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 348-410 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
His fellow mega pokemon in char Y and pinsir also beat him out head to head.
Those are pretty much the only choices from what I've seen so far. Then you've got a long list of "almosts" that might be able to kill him if there's other damage on to Heracross.
Genesect can outspeed but not OHKO even with flamethrower, +1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 266-314 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja does not come close, 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 156-185 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran can almost kill with a full Sp.atk build, but that's quite rare 252 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Alakazam 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 288-342 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So really, you need either something from the first list or something from the second list with another faster pokemon to finish him off.
Overall Heracross is not unstoppable, but outside of a very specific list then he's practically guaranteed at least one kill and hits harder than anything else in the OU metagame. His ability to blow up mega venusaur by itself places him in a very small group of pokemon. But he does have fairly common counters and therefore I think that somewhere in the A rankings is the right place for him.
it hits hard as fuck. As BlackLight said, it's Rampardos except it outspeeds all defensive Pokemon, has a better typing and doesn't kill itself with recoil. With zero boosts in can OHKO pretty much the entire game and 2HKO everything else. Of the UU banlist, the only things that can safely switch-in are Sableye and Aegislash (unless it has Fire Punch,) and nothing relevant to OU can wall it.
It OHKOs Mega Venusaur (unless it's max defense, but even then it has a chance to get OHKOed after any amount of hazards,) which is something not even Specs Latios can do. Skarmory and Mandibuzz get 2HKOed, as well as Hippowdon and anything that doesn't resist High Jump Kick. It doesn't have the speed to sweep most teams but it can reliably get rid of anything that's preventing the rest of its team from sweeping. It's one of the best wallbreakers in the game.
I think the main reason is because it can be tailored to smash down pretty much any bulky Poke that its teammates cannot handle. The elemental punches alone makes would-be checks like Aegislash, Landorus-T, and Gyarados not foolproof counters. Even Mega-Venusaur crumbles before Zen Headbutt. Its moves don't just hit hard; they cover such a huge variety of Pokemon so that pretty much any switch-in would be risky. Just trying to figure out whether it has Hi Jump Kick or not, let alone when it will use it, can be half the struggle.
That said, MegaCham faces the same 100 base Speed dilemma MegaVoir does, and Bullet Punch will only carry it so far. I can see it being inched down to B+, but you have to consider that while Mawile's Sucker Punch lets it better handle itself against offensive teams (to an extent, it is Sucker Punch), Medicham's higher speed means it is better equipped to take on the bulkier Pokemon it is meant to break down.
Not C Rank, Not B- Rank, Not B Rank
But B+ Rank
I already made most of the the arguments here : http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/5162209/
But after some usage with Choice Banded Staraptor, I can vouch that B+ Rank is a solid tiering for this bird thanks to its many merits and semi-manageable flaws.
Boasting the most powerful Brave Bird in the game thanks to the boost from STAB and Reckless, Staraptor more than fulfills an offensive niche in wall-breaking. The only sure-fire counter to Staraptor is probably Aegislash, Skarmory, and Bronzong. Everything else is simply a check at best (i.e - Rotom Wash Forme).
I've scanned the list of A-Ranked Pokemon for any noticeable physical wall-breakers on Staraptor's level and have found but only a few. Banded Garchomp stands out as a potential competition boasting superior speed, attack power, bulk and typing ; however, Banded Garchomp's STABs are not what they used to be thanks to the number of Pokemon that are either immune to / resist either or both Earthquake and Outrage. Banded Staraptor's Brave Bird is seriously a threat to any Pokemon regardless of resist, in most situations. Banded Azumarill has better typing and superior power ; yet, Azumarill's low-speed can prove to be a hindrance that may force Azumarill to spam its weaker STAB Aqua Jet, while Staraptor has more liberty to freely click a STAB, Reckless-boosted base 120 move. Banded Terrakion is probably the only other true viable physical wall-breaker in OU. STAB Close Combat and Stone Edge are easier to combat due to Pokemon such as Azumarill, Aegislash, Gliscor, Landorus-T and so forth (depending on what move Terrakion locks itself into).
The only real problems I see with Staraptor that may hold it back from an easy jump to A-Rank are longevity and certain counters.
A more powerful Brave Bird and Double Edge come at the cost of a shortened life-span ; however, this can be mitigated through Wish support and/or Healing Wish. How effectively this method of assistance can be done, is up to the rest of you to decide.
Aegislash is the true problem to Staraptor in my opinion ; although Tank Aegislash can't really do anything to Staraptor, it can King Shield and make things worse for Staraptor. Skarmory and Bronzong aren't as common anymore in my honest opinion and are easily disposed of by Rotom-W, Talonflame, Aegislash, Heatran and other top-tier Pokemon that I don't find them to be huge relevant threats like Aegislash is.
It's worth a try for my boy Azumarill.
A+ Rank please
Banded, Assault Vest or Belly Drum. Whichever route Azumarill takes, it is sure to be successful when utilized properly. Azumarill is a huge threat this Generation not only because of Huge Power but also because it got a huge buff in Fairy-Typing.
Azumarill can fulfill three different roles with equal success : wall-breaking, pivoting, and sweeping.
Choice Band gives Azumarill an impressive Attack stat that makes Uber legendaries jealous. STAB Play Rough and STAB Waterfall alongside Superpower for coverage, can seriously dent any opposition making true counters difficult to come by.
Calculations for your pleasure, Ladies and Gents :
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 190-225 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 308-366 (87 - 103.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 176-210 (51 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 229-273 (66.3 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
My personal favorite set has to be the Belly Drum set ... with a twist.
When equipped with Leftovers, it allows Azumarill to switch in more freely and act as a team player, soaking up hits and dishing out damage when it can. If the opportunity ever presents itself, Azumarill should hit Belly Drum and attempt to sweep the opposition. This is possible thanks to Azumarill's above average bulk and plethora of useful resistances.
Main issue of being ranked higher than even B- is the fact Meggron is not able to have recovery outside of Rest Talk. While he has the physical defense to succeed with just that, Rest Talk is unreliable as a whole which means with being comparable to stuff like Hippowdon in how he takes hits better, he must rely on the most rudimentary of healing hurts him severely thus not allowing him to move up.
No one runs iron tail, and for good reason: it's a shitty move.
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%)
Because of lefties+protect, you need 2 layers of hazards up to guarantee the 2HKO. Add that on to the fact that you have to hit it on the switch and iron tail's crappy accuracy, and it's not worth it.
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All right, I've had a chance to further test Staraptor, and agree that based solely on its own merit, my early ranking of B- was too low, but I'm not quite sold on B+ yet.
Not C Rank, Not B- Rank, Not B Rank
But B+ Rank
I already made most of the the arguments here : http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/5162209/
But after some usage with Choice Banded Staraptor, I can vouch that B+ Rank is a solid tiering for this bird thanks to its many merits and semi-manageable flaws.
Boasting the most powerful Brave Bird in the game thanks to the boost from STAB and Reckless, Staraptor more than fulfills an offensive niche in wall-breaking. The only sure-fire counter to Staraptor is probably Aegislash, Skarmory, and Bronzong. Everything else is simply a check at best (i.e - Rotom Wash Forme).
I've scanned the list of A-Ranked Pokemon for any noticeable physical wall-breakers on Staraptor's level and have found but only a few. Banded Garchomp stands out as a potential competition boasting superior speed, attack power, bulk and typing ; however, Banded Garchomp's STABs are not what they used to be thanks to the number of Pokemon that are either immune to / resist either or both Earthquake and Outrage. Banded Staraptor's Brave Bird is seriously a threat to any Pokemon regardless of resist, in most situations. Banded Azumarill has better typing and superior power ; yet, Azumarill's low-speed can prove to be a hindrance that may force Azumarill to spam its weaker STAB Aqua Jet, while Staraptor has more liberty to freely click a STAB, Reckless-boosted base 120 move. Banded Terrakion is probably the only other true viable physical wall-breaker in OU. STAB Close Combat and Stone Edge are easier to combat due to Pokemon such as Azumarill, Aegislash, Gliscor, Landorus-T and so forth (depending on what move Terrakion locks itself into).
The only real problems I see with Staraptor that may hold it back from an easy jump to A-Rank are longevity and certain counters.
A more powerful Brave Bird and Double Edge come at the cost of a shortened life-span ; however, this can be mitigated through Wish support and/or Healing Wish. How effectively this method of assistance can be done, is up to the rest of you to decide.
Aegislash is the true problem to Staraptor in my opinion ; although Tank Aegislash can't really do anything to Staraptor, it can King Shield and make things worse for Staraptor. Skarmory and Bronzong aren't as common anymore in my honest opinion and are easily disposed of by Rotom-W, Talonflame, Aegislash, Heatran and other top-tier Pokemon that I don't find them to be huge relevant threats like Aegislash is.
It's worth a try for my boy Azumarill.
A+ Rank please
Banded, Assault Vest or Belly Drum. Whichever route Azumarill takes, it is sure to be successful when utilized properly. Azumarill is a huge threat this Generation not only because of Huge Power but also because it got a huge buff in Fairy-Typing.
Azumarill can fulfill three different roles with equal success : wall-breaking, pivoting, and sweeping.
Choice Band gives Azumarill an impressive Attack stat that makes Uber legendaries jealous. STAB Play Rough and STAB Waterfall alongside Superpower for coverage, can seriously dent any opposition making true counters difficult to come by.
Calculations for your pleasure, Ladies and Gents :
Assault Vest turns Azumarill into a wonderful pivot Pokemon as it can switch in on resisted hits, dish out damage and eat-up certain attacks that would normally scare out an Azumarill. For example :
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 190-225 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 308-366 (87 - 103.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In return, Azumarill can KO with either Play Rough or Waterfall followed by Aqua Jet.
- 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 176-210 (51 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 229-273 (66.3 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
My personal favorite set has to be the Belly Drum set ... with a twist.
When equipped with Leftovers, it allows Azumarill to switch in more freely and act as a team player, soaking up hits and dishing out damage when it can. If the opportunity ever presents itself, Azumarill should hit Belly Drum and attempt to sweep the opposition. This is possible thanks to Azumarill's above average bulk and plethora of useful resistances.
Its reliance on self-destructive moves (Recoil, decreasing one's defenses, you can even count U-Turn in this as SR is still a threat) for damage has always been something I disapprove of, and its reliance on a band to perform its job better than the competition is something I dislike as well. Also, while they fill different roles, Talonflame is the overall more useful BB user, so Staraptor is a little overshadowed.
B I agree with, but before I second B+, I'd like to hear a few more opinions
Azumarill is known to be able to fill multiple roles on a team successfully, while not quite being the best at any of them.
I'm just not sure, because it's bulk isn't good enough to be a premier defensive pokemon, but its more than good enough to force out specific pokemon. Plus, it lacks reliable recovery.
Its attacks hit hard, but there are plenty that hit harder, and its not quite strong enough for me to use it solely because of its wallbreaking abilities (most of those calcs rely on SR support, which isn't guarenteed). Its too slow, Aqua Jet's too weak, and Belly Drum's too inconsistent for it to sweep, but the fact that it can use Belly Drum means you can never give him space or there's a chance he buff up and become very dangerous. This can put people in a tough spot as they don't know if they should switch out predicting the AJ and risk a free set up turn, or attack predicting the Belly Drum (assuming you've confirmed its not a Band Azumarill) and risk a KO if your poke is weak.
Its viability isn't in question, it's clearly an A tier pokemon, but I don't think any of its sets perform at an A+ level, and I'm not sure if its versatility is enough to make up the difference. It could just be me though.
Can someone please explain to me what blacklisting means?
No discussion allowed. Because some people couldn't handle that their favorite pokemon weren't OU material and argued for them for pages upon pages.
So does that mean that Florges and Arcanine aren't OU tier, or that it was discussed too much and is still under debate, and is blacklisted until decided?
Basically what happened was that the current two Blacklisted Pokemon were considered outclassed by other Pokemon, but the two happened to turn the thread on it's head multiple times despite a consensus being made, hence them being blacklisted to prevent future occurances.
It means, even though they're outclassed and not worth considering for an OU team, people were adamant about getting it ranked somewhere above B-. Things rejected for OU analyses, which both Arcanine and Florges are, don't get ranked.
EDIT: Just for reference, I've read through the last 15 or so pages and gathered a summary of some unlisted rankings, that we've agreed upon. (Or so I think, please correct if something is wrong)
Rotom-H - B+
Blastoise (Mega) - B(-)
Starmie - B(-)
Chandelure - B(-)
Gardevoir (Mega) - B
Latias - A(-)/B+
Latios - A(-)/B+
Hydreigon - B
Staraptor - B
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I think the major issue of Pinsir is that it is checked by BOTH Rotom-W and Talonflame, the very two meta pokemon (unless it is some proben TF doesn't OHKO it, which I don't think so), making his time really hard. While Lucario is neutral to TF's priority, and has its major STAB unresisted against Rotom.
But yes, solid A+, anywhere below that is nonsense.
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Pinsir should stay where he is, around A-A+ as he is checked effectively by both Rotom-W and Talonflame, the former one of the most used if not the most used mon in OU and the latter the premier revenge-killer of the tier as well. And despite the Defog buff, weakness to SR is still weakness to SR. With no reliable form of recovery (unless you run a Wish-passer), Pinsir isn't going anywhere IMO. It's still definitely effective thoughPhotofluid said:
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Pinsir is arguably the most difficult pokemon to wall though, if you somehow discounts the unpredictablity of lucario, the only real solution by far is Skarmory, and this is what leads to the duo-bird HO strate which is getting rising popularity. On the other hand, it also means that it is the best healing wish passer in the meta because nth but skarmory will ever wall him twice.
I actually agree with Pinsir being difficult to wall. I just noted some issues I had with it though. Might have to rephrase my previous post. Once MPinsir gets +2, it is pretty hard to stop. Anyway, I don't think it will fall from A/A+ range anytime soon.Photofluid said:
Now I'm really considering if MLucario should be suspected. It has excellent priority moves in both its special and physical sets. And that unpredictability will cost a player a mon if you send the wrong wall out
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