Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[November Blue]

Honestly, I feel like there are few flaws that prevent it from doing its job. The first is the omnipresent Heatran which comes in on Sacred Fire and laughs. This is one common weakness it has with its supporting Pokemon like DD Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, and Salamence. It's worn out very easily as its weak to every entry hazard. Sand and U-turn damage can wear it out even faster. Mono Fire-typing is a good and bad. Being weak to Ground-, Rock-, and Water-type moves is problematic, but Fairy-, Fire-, Ice-, Steel-, and Bug- resistances are good. Your playing Entei for Sacred Fire and that alone. This means that Entei has only one niche: nuke that can burn common switch-ins. Entei is very niche, but it's not outclassed. These reasons themselves make Entei a B canditate. It's not partially outclassed by anything like the definition, but these flaws keep it from doing its job consistently. "Spreading burns" doesn't always happen. It's only around a 45% chance to burn (accounting its accuracy) and its PP can be easily stalled out (8 PP). If it gets 8 Sacred Fire's out, that would be amazing, but lets not go to things like "oh Garchomp is safe switch-in, oh wait, Sacred Fire burns :0". I am nominating it for solid B+ Rank especially since it fits the B Tier definition better than the A.

These reasons? No, I don't think they do at all. Heatran fears Bulldoze, and cannot switch in safely. Entei can eliminate this counter easily.

Furthermore, I've stated in the past that I believe that spin/Defog support falls under team support rather than specific support that you have to bother with for one team member. While being weak to Stealth Rock is certainly a con, it shouldn't have a large impact on the ranking of a Pokemon. Sacred Fire is difficult to PP stall, as well. What exactly is going to be taking those hits? What's stopping me from predicting and using Stone Edge instead?

The rest of the stuff you wrote (after the bold) isn't really an argument. Entei might not get to do its job. Stealth Rock, sand, and Spikes might be up. You might not have a Defogger. Sacred Fire might not burn. We're not going to drop Deoxys-S a tier because it might not get two layers up.

Entei has one role, and it does it reliably enough to be a prominent threat.

 

[mertyville]

Besides Flash Fire Users, nothing wants to take a Sacred Fire from Entei. It will either burn or die, anything between shouldn't be considered because 50 % burn chance is nothing to laugh at *cough*scald has 30 % and burns "always"*cough*.

I am suprised nobody is nominating Heatran, but use them as an argument most of the time.
A pretty good Special Wall with great offense, an excellent bulky attacker or a good revange killer with Choice Scarf should be reason enough to be at least A Rank. It can laugh at ground typ moves when it holds an Airballoon and eats other Fire Typs for breakfast.

 

[Sandoori]

I am suprised nobody is nominating Heatran, but use them as an argument most of the time.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

A+

Heatran:

It's literally the first Pokemon listed under A+ in the OP.

 

[mertyville]

It's literally the first Pokemon listed under A+ in the OP.

Oops, how? I looked at that list like 5 times before I posted this and I still haven't noticed it xD

 

[Primary]

All right, I've had a chance to further test Staraptor, and agree that based solely on its own merit, my early ranking of B- was too low, but I'm not quite sold on B+ yet.

Its reliance on self-destructive moves (Recoil, decreasing one's defenses, you can even count U-Turn in this as SR is still a threat) for damage has always been something I disapprove of, and its reliance on a band to perform its job better than the competition is something I dislike as well. Also, while they fill different roles, Talonflame is the overall more useful BB user, so Staraptor is a little overshadowed.
B I agree with, but before I second B+, I'd like to hear a few more opinions


Azumarill is known to be able to fill multiple roles on a team successfully, while not quite being the best at any of them.

I'm just not sure, because it's bulk isn't good enough to be a premier defensive pokemon, but its more than good enough to force out specific pokemon. Plus, it lacks reliable recovery.

Its attacks hit hard, but there are plenty that hit harder, and its not quite strong enough for me to use it solely because of its wallbreaking abilities (most of those calcs rely on SR support, which isn't guarenteed). Its too slow, Aqua Jet's too weak, and Belly Drum's too inconsistent for it to sweep, but the fact that it can use Belly Drum means you can never give him space or there's a chance he buff up and become very dangerous. This can put people in a tough spot as they don't know if they should switch out predicting the AJ and risk a free set up turn, or attack predicting the Belly Drum (assuming you've confirmed its not a Band Azumarill) and risk a KO if your poke is weak.

Its viability isn't in question, it's clearly an A tier pokemon, but I don't think any of its sets perform at an A+ level, and I'm not sure if its versatility is enough to make up the difference. It could just be me though.

Regarding

• I agree with you that Staraptor's most glaring flaw has to be its self-destructive nature. It's manageable through the use of team support, however, it's not always guaranteed and can be difficult to utilize consistently.
• I do not agree that Talonflame is the "better" Brave Bird user. lol, this is one point I will adamantly refuse to accept. Talonflame and Staraptor function in almost two completely separate manners. Talonflame is the better revenge-killer thanks to Gale Wing, while Staraptor is the better Wall-Breaker than Talonflame could even dream of being. The sheer power that Staraptor packs makes Talonflame almost incomparable when it comes to wall-breaking. You can't depend on a Talonflame to break through Rotom-W or Slowbro for you while Staraptor can easily 2HKO both of them.
• I compared Choice Band Staraptor to other Choice Band users for the sake of consistency. My main point was that there is really no other overshadowing Pokemon when it comes to physical wall-breaking.

Regarding

• Stealth Rock is not always a guaranteed scenario but the opposition being at full health is not always guaranteed either ; regardless, I see what you're trying to get at. However the only one that really mattered regarding Stealth Rock was probably Skarmory and Aegislash. Everyone else was either getting 2HKO'd regardless of entry hazard and/or would be severely dented upon taking a move, crippling them extensively, which is Azumarill's role as a wall-breaker.
• I never classified it as a premier defensive Pokemon. I said it was extremely effective as a pivot Pokemon, sponging resisted hits and dishing out considerable damage.
• As I have stated previously, the most effective set this generation for Azumarill is either an Assault Vest variant or Leftovers pivot + Belly Drum variant. Being able to switch up moves and apply constant pressure is great for a Pokemon such as Azumarill.

 

[DaiGuren]

These reasons? No, I don't think they do at all. Heatran fears Bulldoze, and cannot switch in safely. Entei can eliminate this counter easily.

Furthermore, I've stated in the past that I believe that spin/Defog support falls under team support rather than specific support that you have to bother with for one team member. While being weak to Stealth Rock is certainly a con, it shouldn't have a large impact on the ranking of a Pokemon. Sacred Fire is difficult to PP stall, as well. What exactly is going to be taking those hits? What's stopping me from predicting and using Stone Edge instead?

The rest of the stuff you wrote (after the bold) isn't really an argument. Entei might not get to do its job. Stealth Rock, sand, and Spikes might be up. You might not have a Defogger. Sacred Fire might not burn. We're not going to drop Deoxys-S a tier because it might not get two layers up.

Entei has one role, and it does it reliably enough to be a prominent threat.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 80-95 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 107-127 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- 19.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just sayin, there's still a dangerous mon that will readily take those Sacred Fires easily and shrug it off. And yes, CroCune is a very viable set and it already got it's OU analysis.

 

[Grey Knight]

Well Mega Venausar definitely is an S class pok , it just checks so much, but just like every beautiful butterfly that has to do its metamorphosis to turn from an ugly caterpillar to what it is, mega venausar has to evolve from a normal venausar a really bad and low quality pokemon by OU standards.

 

[Colonial]

Well Mega Venausar definitely is an S class pok , it just checks so much, but just like every beautiful butterfly that has to do its metamorphosis to turn from an ugly caterpillar to what it is, mega venausar has to evolve from a normal venausar a really bad low quality pokemon.

...What? Venusaur has always been one of the best starters in competitive. It is by no stretch of the imagination a "bad low quality pokemon". It was OU last gen! Venusaur is a considerably better pokemon than many other potential megas, such as Mawile or Charizard. Also, how on earth is that comment (or mine, to think of it) in any way relevant to tiering?

 

[Grey Knight]

."bad low quality pokemon". ?

Its just a rough estimation of how good the normal venausar is without weather , 80% of the grass type starters where either nu or ru last gen and i really don't see much on normal weather less venausar that sets it a part from its fellow grass types starters .

 

[Colonial]

Its just a rough estimation of how good the normal venausar is without weather , 80% of the grass type starters where either nu or ru last gen and i really don't see much on normal weather less venausar that sets it a part from its fellow grass types starters .

It's bulkier than sceptile or any other grass starter, has no 4x weaknesses like Torterra, can actually do something to the opponent (e.g. sleep powder) unlike Meganium and Serperior, and is Grass/Poison. Also Venusaur was top-tier UU in Gen 4, without Chlorophyll or sun. It just has better stat distribution than most other starters.

Anyway, this argument is irrelevant to tiering. Venusaur is classed along with it's mega and so our debate as to regular venu's capabilities is pointless.

 

[Vert]

These reasons? No, I don't think they do at all. Heatran fears Bulldoze, and cannot switch in safely. Entei can eliminate this counter easily.

Furthermore, I've stated in the past that I believe that spin/Defog support falls under team support rather than specific support that you have to bother with for one team member. While being weak to Stealth Rock is certainly a con, it shouldn't have a large impact on the ranking of a Pokemon. Sacred Fire is difficult to PP stall, as well. What exactly is going to be taking those hits? What's stopping me from predicting and using Stone Edge instead?

The rest of the stuff you wrote (after the bold) isn't really an argument. Entei might not get to do its job. Stealth Rock, sand, and Spikes might be up. You might not have a Defogger. Sacred Fire might not burn. We're not going to drop Deoxys-S a tier because it might not get two layers up.

Entei has one role, and it does it reliably enough to be a prominent threat.

Entei is very predictable. yea, in words you could say the following, but in practice, no. You can't assume: Oh yea, 100% heatran switch ima bulldoze, even if you do predict right, something like Thundurus-T can set up Nasty Plot on you or Talonflame can SD in your face, and there is even a chance Heatran is the air balloon variant (this one is really common, usage stats pls), and Entei will only use CB, because without it, there is a 25% damage output decrese, and don't even say Life Orb because that just supports my argument on how easily it is worn down.

Entei is worn down very easily and its lack of good coverage moves holds it back. Rotom-W can force out easily, sure, Sacred Fire 2HKOes after rocks, but Entei is garunteed to switch, combine this with hazards or sand damage, you can easily send it to a range to pick it off with priority

It's also set-up bait to Mega Charizard X and Lum Berry Dragonite even if you use Sacred Fire or not (bulldoze), which can rip through your team if Entei is on the field, Extremespeed won't be enough to revenge kill them thanks to Multiscale and Charizard's hefty 78 / 115 Def. Unlike other hit and run attackers, it faces a common issue of not being able to switch-in repeatedly thanks to its common weaknesses to rock-, ground-, and water-type moves.

Calm Mind Clefable can set up CM and stall out Sacred Fire with Soft-Boiled / Moonlight. The rare reuniclus can do the same with recover.

you said: what's exactly taking those hits?

Deoxys-D, Zapdos, Suicune, opposing Entei if your crazy, Moltres, situational, but they all work, since pressure is rare.

Entei also needs to come in on something slower than it most of the time, which is hard in this face paced metagame

You yourself said that it might not be able to do its job, that itself shows that Entei is not B-rank, A-rank definition says flaws but flaws like SR, Spikes, sacred fire doesn't always burn (its chance is less than dynamic punch's accuracy), and you might lose our hazard user, but im not going to assume all this up, but its common enough to keep it away from A

Entei is good, yes, but these flaws keep it from being A-Rank. B+ Rank

 

[CrymsonEchidna]

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Not sure if discussed already, but I'd like to nominated Mega-Blastoise for B/B- rank. It's main purpose is naturally as a Rapid-Spin user, but the edge Blastoise has that it fellow water Spinners like Starmie and Tentacruel lack is it's ability to fully check both Spinblockers and Defog users. With access to a boosted Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam, Blastoise is capable of staying on the field to contend with these types. Also thanks to it's bulk and wide arrangement of moves (Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump, Aura Sphere) Blastoise has a wide range of coverage.

The flaw to Blastoise is it's slow speed and it will have trouble getting past a Special Defense Wall.

 

[epicdrill]

EDIT: Just for reference, I've read through the last 15 or so pages and gathered a summary of some unlisted rankings, that we've agreed upon. (Or so I think, please correct if something is wrong)
Rotom-H - B+
Blastoise (Mega) - B(-)
Starmie - B(-)
Chandelure - B(-)
Gardevoir (Mega) - B
Latias - A(-)/B+
Latios - A(-)/B+
Hydreigon - B
Staraptor - B

Thanks to member sidakarya for compiling this list, which we probably should keep somewhere in the newest posts of the thread until ginganinja finally updates the OP. Maybe once a page? IDK.

Also, I fully support Entei at B. It can be a fearsome wallbreaker with the CB set or a nice special tank (and one of the better checks to MCY, in fact, a counter to those without EQ) with the AV set. Also, Sacred Fire is non-contact, giving it an advantage at Ferrothorn fighting compared with other physical fire-types. Downsides are that it is weak to all entry hazards and has no reliable recovery. Will edit in more later.

EDIT: Some quotes that were posted at around page 60, right before/after Ginganinja locked the thread because of the Florges shit.

Sacred Fire is a huge plus for Entei as it deters any physical attackers from coming in against it. Even Gliscor hates switching in as it could be burned. This is a major bonus and the sheer power of Entei's Band set is undeniable. Oh and cool this is my 50th post.

Entei is bulky offensive. It won't hit as hard or as fast as darmanitan or infernape, but it can take way more hits than either and also threaten switch-ins with a potentially crippling burn. And its defensive stats - 115/85/75 is certainly not absolute shit. The lack of recovery does seriously hurt him though.
EDIT also fire is a perfectly good defensive type other than stealth rocks.

Entei fits perfectly on a bulky offensive team and it is a pain to switch in on due to Sacred Fire's burn and coverage. The only flash fire pokemon that laughs at everything Entei has to offer is Balloontran.

Around the time these were posted, B- was generally agreed on as a good place for Entei.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'd like to argue for Rotom-W in S class.

-Most used mon (for good reason)
-Easily supports almost any team with very little opportunity cost
-rarely gives opponents free turns due to Volt Switch + W-o-W and Hydro Pump threatening all Ground and Fire types.
-Few if any flaws (too much mold breaker/terravolt in this meta...)
-You almost have to ask yourself why you're not using it on your team.

 

[Ajwf]

More indirectly, this generation has helped Rotom-w.

-Aegislash caused EQ to increase in usage tremendously.
-Talonflame, Pinsir-m: Rotom-w is the only one to counter both.
-Versatility of sets. While choice sets have fallen from favor a bit, they are by no means unviable. His Defensive set, Trick scarf sets and specs sets all make him an even easier pokemon to justify using.
-Willowisp acc

-His only letdown is his power...He really can't kill things, he's so much better at annoying things and avoiding hits.

 

[Photofluid]

So Rotom does some how fit the requirement of S under the support categary, there are no real reason to not use it, hands down the best burn inducer in this meta.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

I'll agree that Rotom Wash has quite a bit of utility, having the ability to laugh at pretty much anything Talonflame can throw at it, it's also fairly splashable, very rarely will a team not welcome Rotom Wash for it's endeavors, with WoW's accuarcy buff and allowing it's team to gain momentum with Volt Switch, it's got all the tools it needs to succeed, it's got various sets that increase it's versatility like ChestoResto or Choice Trick sets that all can work depending on what the team needs, let's recall the definition of S Rank:

"S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank."

Rotom Wash, is peculiar in this case. Rotom Wash rarely gives the opponent free turns thanks to stuff like Volt Switch, it can run various roles in a team, but can it wall significant portions of the Metagame required for S Rank? A honest question here, while I feel using Rotom Wash has more benefits then disadvantages, I'm not sure if it fills all the criteria for S Rank, if someone could help convince me that'd be amazing. Right now I see Rotom Wash at borderline S, definitely A+ worthy but I'm not sure if whether Rotom W qualifies for S or just barely fall short of S.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Rotom Wash rarely gives the opponent free turns thanks to stuff like Volt Switch, it can run various roles in a team, but can it wall significant portions of the Metagame required for S Rank?

I'll answer your question with another.

Is there any other Pokemon that can wall a greater portion of the Metagame than Rotom-W?

...Mega Venusaur...

...any others?

...
...
...
...
...
...um...


Walling is such a strong word-- basically nothing (besides Mega Venusaur) "walls" what could traditionally be called a "significant" portion of the metagame, but Rotom-W fulfills the traditional role of a bulky water type that makes it a good switch into a great number of threats. It is a good check/switch-in to a greater number of enemies than probably anything else in the game, including Mega Venusaur. I'm pretty sure Rotom-W's got that requirement licked.

 

[Mood4food77]

please make a team that rotom-w doesn't fit on at all and then come back to us

rotom-w is S rank

 

[Punchshroom]

Regarding

• I agree with you that Staraptor's most glaring flaw has to be its self-destructive nature. It's manageable through the use of team support, however, it's not always guaranteed and can be difficult to utilize consistently.
• I do not agree that Talonflame is the "better" Brave Bird user. lol, this is one point I will adamantly refuse to accept. Talonflame and Staraptor function in almost two completely separate manners. Talonflame is the better revenge-killer thanks to Gale Wing, while Staraptor is the better Wall-Breaker than Talonflame could even dream of being. The sheer power that Staraptor packs makes Talonflame almost incomparable when it comes to wall-breaking. You can't depend on a Talonflame to break through Rotom-W or Slowbro for you while Staraptor can easily 2HKO both of them.
• I compared Choice Band Staraptor to other Choice Band users for the sake of consistency. My main point was that there is really no other overshadowing Pokemon when it comes to physical wall-breaking.

You're right, Talonflame is not an automatically 'better' Brave Bird user than Staraptor, but I don't think Staraptor is a universally better wallbreaker. This is because of Talonflame's access to Taunt, boosting moves in Swords Dance & Bulk Up, and more resists in Steel, Fire, & Fairy, letting Talonflame harmlessly defeat Pokemon Staraptor would have to sacrifice a substantial amount of health just to break through, just so long as there are no strong super effective moves that threaten Talonflame. Staraptor does make for a spectacular hole puncher though.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

I'll answer your question with another.

Is there any other Pokemon that can wall a greater portion of the Metagame than Rotom-W?

...Mega Venusaur...

...any others?

...
...
...
...
...
...um...


Walling is such a strong word-- basically nothing (besides Mega Venusaur) "walls" what could traditionally be called a "significant" portion of the metagame, but Rotom-W fulfills the traditional role of a bulky water type that makes it a good switch into a great number of threats. It is a good check/switch-in to a greater number of enemies than probably anything else in the game, including Mega Venusaur. I'm pretty sure Rotom-W's got that requirement licked.

Fair enough, and you made a good point. Well, now I can safely say that Rotom Wash fills all the criteria of S Rank and should be promoted, if that's the word to use here, from A+ to S. It's such a good Pokemon and it's versatility and the fact that it can be worked into almost every team makes it worthy of being bumped up to S. Thank you for answering my question by the way, I appreciate it.

 

[rachet67]

I think Rotom-W is fine in A+. While it is extremely anti-meta and provides useful support, it has a few flaws that prevent it from being S. The most prominent, is its tendency to get worn down. Because Rotom-W lacks reliable recovery, it can't really sustain itself throughout the match without support, and eventually gives way. Because of this, it can't really run the full-out support set it would like to run. Rotom-W is isn't terribly powerful (not weak either), which prevents it from applying too much pressure with volt-switch. Finally Rotom-W can certainly wall many very relevant threats in the meta, but not enough that it can reliably create "free turns" (though volt switch helps). By comparison, Mega-Venasaur can literally switch in and force out like half the meta.

I think that Rotom-W is an amazing pokemon, and very anti-meta, and A+ reflects this. However, its shortcomings do add up, and prevent it from being S rank. I believe that it actually was ranked S a little while back, but was demoted back to A+.

 

[Pipotchi]

So rotom-W is easy to put on a team, that doesnt mean he is S tier worthy. He still has no recovery which hinders his role as something which absorbs hits. The metagame is getting stronger too, Rotom-W can't take multiple hits from stuff like a Mega Pinsir even if its resisted.

I don't think that if a pokemon is easy to just throw onto any old team to patch up its problems it should be S tier. Rotom-W can't run through a team like S tier pivot Genesect, he can't wall pokemon like Mega Venusaur. He doesn't have quite comparable versatility to S tier Deoxys-S. Honestly as a pivot, I think Genesect leaves Rotom-W in the dirt. Being faster, far more powerful, and also having access to surprise boosting sets which can proceed to sweep your team, he's an example of an S-tier pivot- something which could potentially see banning to the Uber tier in the future. Rotom-W has some surprise sets, he can cripple one support pokemon with a surprise trick, but is that the same as Genesect destroying your whole team? Obviously Rotom-W is I guess a defensive pivot, compared to Genesect being offensive, but there's a reason only one defensive pokemon is in S rank- its damn hard to be a defensive pokemon in gen6 with the ability to deal with the majority of such a hard-hitting and versatile metagame. Rotom-W is a great defensive pokemon because he checks a huge number of pokemon, but he can't straight wall anyone with pain split as his only recovery.

I'm not knocking Rotom-W, I think he is definitely one of the A+ pokemon this gen, but I see S tier as a suspect tier of sorts. Everything in S tier is capable of knocking out a large portion of your team, which is something I don't think Rotom-W is capable of. I mean ultimately pokemon is won by knocking stuff out, so anything in S tier should probably be very competent in knocking out things. Look at Mega Venusaurs attacking stats (100/122 with options for mixed, physical, or special sets) as a wall, and Genesect's attacking stats (120/120, often at +1, with either mixed or fully physical sets with excellent coverage) as a pivot.

 

[myw]

The answer to the earlier question was heatran, also in A+. The critical factor is lack of recovery.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In my experience battling against Rotom, a lack of a Recovery move is almost never an issue. The nature of how it works, Rest + Chesto once in the battle is usually enough to get the job done against the much frailer, SR weak threats that it tends to target. Leftovers + Painsplit is also surprisingly useful and powerful in the hands of something with Rotom's resilience to passive damage, low HP, and trolly Speed.

That's right-- resilience to passive damage. It's true that Spikes is less common than it's ever been, but having spikes immunity + neutral to SR still means that Rotom-W can get by with a lot less healing than other defensive mons need to function; especially when it has only 1 very hard to hit weakness and trolls with Volt Switch to avoid many of its own checks.

Also S Rank should not be only for Pokes that should be considered suspect. Jirachi was S Tier last gen, and was never suspect-- meanwhile Torn-T was A and got banned. Viability is about "power" independant of "usage", but suspects don't always come from power alone. Not all suspects have to come from S class (or are necessarily S class) where as not all S class are suspects.