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Pokémon Talonflame

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Punchshroom said:
Best of all, most of the spreads tend to put 4 HP EVs on certain SR weak Pokemon, like Thundurus and Charizard, when it isn't beneficial for them.
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My favorite part of the spreads!

Punchshroom said:
Keep in mind I am referring to players who consider reason(s) to actually run Jolly on Talonflame, not pure ladder noobs who just blindly paste whatever EV spread is layed out before them without bothering to question whether it is excessive.
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Does the former exist? 252atk Greninja Water Shuriken is still really shaky against 4/0 Talonflame (and Water Shuriken isn't even something I'd expect) and I can't think of much of anything else that'd warrant the power drop from not running Adamant, if my opponent's running Jolly I'd assume they're just running with what's given to them.
 
Gonna bring it up again, I did before, but it got shrugged off, well, Solar Beam:
0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 166-198 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 168-198 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 216-254 (72.4 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I pretty much run Sunny Day + Solar Beam for Rotom-W, but like it amps up Flare Blitz too so yay. (Note, with max investment Talonflame will not OHKO 252/0)
 
Sandoori said:
Does the former exist? 252atk Greninja Water Shuriken is still really shaky against 4/0 Talonflame (and Water Shuriken isn't even something I'd expect) and I can't think of much of anything else that'd warrant the power drop from not running Adamant, if my opponent's running Jolly I'd assume they're just running with what's given to them.
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Pretty much. The reason I claimed it was not a good reason (or a reason at all) to run Jolly Talonflame is because if the teambuilder suggests Adamant Talon, the ladder noobs will just pick that right up.
 
Jabhut said:
Also talonflame is the sole reason behind the rise of rotom-wash, so we can blame it for that too.
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This isn't really correct because rotom was already a pretty good pokemon, long before talonflame even existed. having excellent stats for a bulky attacker with only one weakness a perfect defensive mon makes.

TF is still one of the defining forces of the meta imo, CB Brave Bird still hits like a truck and even other sets still hits pretty hard. Base 81 Attack is one thing, but when you have the strongest priority attack in the entire game, that's pretty much a plus for you.
 
Ash Borer said:
as a partner or as a counter to talonflame?

Azumarill is 2 shot by banded Brave Bird. A talonflame counter it is not.
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Yeah but it still causes problems with your core. It is a great core but you just need a 3rd pokemon (possibly my choice specs roserade set) to deal with azumarill and bulky waters in general such as quagsire
 
I posted this in the Creative Set thread, but I figured I'd post it here as well.

Talonflame @ Salac Berry
Gale Wings
Adamant 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Acrobatics / Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-Natural Gift
-Swords Dance / U-Turn / Roost / Tailwind / Will-O-Wisp / Thief

I designed this set to take down or do severe damage to most of Talonflame's usual checks and counters. Salac Berry Natural Gift hit both standard Heatran and Tyranitar hard.

252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 644-760 (159.4 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 168-198 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

If Tyranitar switches in to tank the Brave Bird, Acrobatics, or Flare Blitz, Salac Berry Natural Gift has a high chance of finishing it off. In fact, if Tyranitar has taken any prior damage, Natural Gift will surely KO as it even has 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Heatran on the other hand will take roughly 50% from the blow, which is a good chunk considering it relies on Lefties for recovery, not to mention the standard Specially Defensive Heatran doesn't usually carry a way to heavily damage Talonflame in return.

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 73-87 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

The last slot is really whatever you need it to be, but U-turn and Swords Dance are the best options in my opinion. U-turn is good since this set doesn't have a way to deal with Talonflame's other biggest counter, Rotom-W and gives you the opportunity to damage it while switching out to something that can deal with it simultaneously. Roost can be used if you feel like you need recovery for whatever reason (like healing off Stealth Rock damage) while Tailwind and Will-O-Wisp can be used to support the team. I added on Thief as the last slash since I feel like it'd be an interesting option similar to Knock Off and Trick. Many Pokemon (if not all) like having their items intact, like Choice Band, Leftovers, Life Orb, Sitrus Berry, and Lum Berry. Being able to steal those items away and use them yourself is pretty powerful, imo (if running Thief, I'd suggest Brave Bird over Acrobatics).

Of course the EVs aren't perfect. You could easily run a 194 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe spread like the standard Swords Dance set if you want.
 
Chesnaught said:
Gonna bring it up again, I did before, but it got shrugged off, well, Solar Beam:
0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 166-198 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 168-198 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 216-254 (72.4 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I pretty much run Sunny Day + Solar Beam for Rotom-W, but like it amps up Flare Blitz too so yay. (Note, with max investment Talonflame will not OHKO 252/0)
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That is a really, really bad idea. You have to drop one of your defenses to keep your solarbeam powerful, which sucks, since Talonflame needs all the bulk it can get. On top of that, you have to give up U-turn, as well as some other move that is very useful, like will-o-wisp, tailwind, and roost. And if this situation here goes exactly the way you want it, Rotom still has a fairly decent amount of health, so it can rest later, while you have at best 17.6% health left. I would much rather just u-turn out to go to an appropriate counter than hit Rotom hard once then die after the next move I do.
 
I just bred an adamant Talonflame for use in Wifi 3v3, and I'm struggling with the EV spread. I'll want 252 in Attack, of course, so I'm talking particularly about HP versus Speed.

Obviously speed only matters a) against other priority attacks, e.g. Sucker Punch and b) when using non-Flying moves.

I'd love to be able to jam U-Turn against things I can't OHKO, including things that can OHKO me back, but that requires a high speed, especially if I want to beat base 100 252+, such as jolly Mega Kangaskhan. However, this requires a large EV investment (172 at level 50), taking away from my precious HP that I need to soak up hits, recoil, and potentially Life Orb damage.

Or maybe I should only care about U-Turning when I predict a switch? In which case speed doesn't matter, and I need only invest enough to outspeed, say, base 100 neutral nature (52 at level 50).

I'm not particularly concerned with having a high speed for Flare Blitz. The fastest thing I'd want to use it on is Mega Lucario, and Talonflame resists both his STAB types.

For that matter, how are people finding different items working with their EV spreads? Life Orb gives me the opportunity to U-Turn more often, which is best with higher speed, but at the same time it hurts more, so it wants more HP. Arg!

Is Sky Plate (or equivalent) worth the decrease in damage output?
 
FurryGah said:
I posted this in the Creative Set thread, but I figured I'd post it here as well.

Talonflame @ Salac Berry
Gale Wings
Adamant 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Acrobatics / Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-Natural Gift
-Swords Dance / U-Turn / Roost / Tailwind / Will-O-Wisp / Thief

I designed this set to take down or do severe damage to most of Talonflame's usual checks and counters. Salac Berry Natural Gift hit both standard Heatran and Tyranitar hard.

252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 644-760 (159.4 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 168-198 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Salac Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 332-392 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

If Tyranitar switches in to tank the Brave Bird, Acrobatics, or Flare Blitz, Salac Berry Natural Gift has a high chance of finishing it off. In fact, if Tyranitar has taken any prior damage, Natural Gift will surely KO as it even has 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Heatran on the other hand will take roughly 50% from the blow, which is a good chunk considering it relies on Lefties for recovery, not to mention the standard Specially Defensive Heatran doesn't usually carry a way to heavily damage Talonflame in return.

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 73-87 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

The last slot is really whatever you need it to be, but U-turn and Swords Dance are the best options in my opinion. U-turn is good since this set doesn't have a way to deal with Talonflame's other biggest counter, Rotom-W and gives you the opportunity to damage it while switching out to something that can deal with it simultaneously. Roost can be used if you feel like you need recovery for whatever reason (like healing off Stealth Rock damage) while Tailwind and Will-O-Wisp can be used to support the team. I added on Thief as the last slash since I feel like it'd be an interesting option similar to Knock Off and Trick. Many Pokemon (if not all) like having their items intact, like Choice Band, Leftovers, Life Orb, Sitrus Berry, and Lum Berry. Being able to steal those items away and use them yourself is pretty powerful, imo (if running Thief, I'd suggest Brave Bird over Acrobatics).

Of course the EVs aren't perfect. You could easily run a 194 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe spread like the standard Swords Dance set if you want.
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Liechi Berry is good to run too, because it gives you a 100 BP Grass type move, so you essentially give up beating Heatran to be able to beat Rotom-W

+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention that Liechi is capable of giving you an attack boost if you actually get down to 25% hp without using Natural Gift, which can make up the loss of a boosting item. Note that Honchkrow is used for the calc because it's the first thing that came to my mind.
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 363-427 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
 
escarlata said:
Liechi Berry is good to run too, because it gives you a 100 BP Grass type move, so you essentially give up beating Heatran to be able to beat Rotom-W

+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention that Liechi is capable of giving you an attack boost if you actually get down to 25% hp without using Natural Gift, which can make up the loss of a boosting item. Note that Honchkrow is used for the calc because it's the first thing that came to my mind.
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 363-427 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
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That's not a bad idea, but I would almost rather run some sort of trapper to take care of Rotom-W, like Wabbuffet, which isn't a bad idea actually. A set like:

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers / Focus Sash
Shadow Tag
Bold 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
-Mirror Coat
-Counter
-Safe Guard
-Encore

It's as easy as Encoring the Rotom-W into Will-O-Wisp or hitting it with Mirror Coat. I'm sure that Talonflame will appreciate the free turn(s) Wobbuffet can provide to get up a quick Swords Dance.
 
Rotom isn't going to anything besides voltswitch against a wobbuffet.

In general, I don't understand people's continuing obsession with trying to make acrobatics work. If you're stalling to <50% hp to activate sitrus berry, why not just spam BB and take the recoil damage?

Acrobatics sets are also incapable of revenge killing, which is the biggest advantage to using talonflame. Even for a gimmick Natural Gift set, I'd rather use brave bird just so I can revenge kill threats before sweeping.
 
TM13IceBeam said:
This isn't really correct because rotom was already a pretty good pokemon, long before talonflame even existed. having excellent stats for a bulky attacker with only one weakness a perfect defensive mon makes.

TF is still one of the defining forces of the meta imo, CB Brave Bird still hits like a truck and even other sets still hits pretty hard. Base 81 Attack is one thing, but when you have the strongest priority attack in the entire game, that's pretty much a plus for you.
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I still love how people treat Talonflame like the second coming of Jesus.

Talonflame is a threat, not a game changer but definitely a threat. Rotom-W was a threat before and he still is now. The reason he is more common is because people can't think accordingly when it comes to finding a counter for Talonflame outside of Water and Electricity resisting Talonflame's STABs

It's funny and angering to watch people blindly stick to specific pokemon instead of looking into others for help, funny to watch failures cut-and-paste teams together and angering because that is quite popular. I think one of my favorite "counters" to the whole Talonflame issue has been Zygarde who I originally picked up to RAPE Aegisslash/Doublade. One Dragon Dance + Extreme Speed (Or just Stone Edge) will kill Talonflame, oh but he can burn? Lum Berry that shit off.
 
Nubbins said:
Rotom isn't going to anything besides voltswitch against a wobbuffet.

In general, I don't understand people's continuing obsession with trying to make acrobatics work. If you're stalling to <50% hp to activate sitrus berry, why not just spam BB and take the recoil damage?

Acrobatics sets are also incapable of revenge killing, which is the biggest advantage to using talonflame. Even for a gimmick Natural Gift set, I'd rather use brave bird just so I can revenge kill threats before sweeping.
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I've been running Shell Bell with Brave Bird Talonflame

Gives a nice little healing buff for her to manhandle what she needs to.
 
I'm new to competitive pokemon, I don't like how delicate she is but I've bred one to use for a combo with my poison heal Breloom because Breloom resists all her weaknesses and she has U-Turn. U-Turn into Breloom on turn 1 to get Brelooms toxic orb off and then he can can easily set up his Spore/Sub/Punch combo on most things they will have tried to use to counter Talonflame. If they send out something Breloom doesn't like then hopefully Talonflame can just bash it's face in. I just hope they don't open with Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave.
 
wait what said:
I assume Flail a poor option?
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Flail is almost never a good option. It doesn't help Talonflame get through anything it struggles with. If you really need extra Normal coverage, go for Return. Now on the other hand, if it were to learn Reversal... Then it might have had something there, being able to knock Rocks and Heatran where it hurts. But alas, no such joy.
 
So, let's go through the sets that Talonflame can use.. I assume there is a separate bulk up set, right? Then there's the obvious choice band, and swords dance. And there's the odd Liechi/Salac Berry+Natural Gift. Those are the only movesets it has yeah?
 
What's the ground natural gift?
Could be fun to beat Tran. No need for fighting since tyranitar already hates uturn
 
myw said:
What's the ground natural gift?
Could be fun to beat Tran. No need for fighting since tyranitar already hates uturn
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The ground berries are: Persim (80BP, cures confusion), Shuca (80BP, weakens Ground attacks), and Apicot (100BP, raises SpDef in a pinch). None of these are useful. If you want a Berry that won't be consumed randomly, Shuca's your man. However, Apicot's 100BP is the only chance you get at 1HKOing 252/0 Heatran without prior damage:

252+ Atk Talonflame Natural Gift (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 336-396 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

If you have hazards up and slam Heatran with a Brave Bird prior (although you could be using Acrobatics which will do the square root of nothing before you lose your item) than maybe, MAYBE, you can beat Heatran without switching. You need prior damage to ensure it.

Too gimmicky a choice for even me though.
 
The thing is, Heatran can only Lava Plume, Roar, or Toxic really. So it's set-up fodder for Talonflame, and at +2, Talonflame does like 40-50% with BB iirc. Only thing it fears is AncientPower, and maybe being pHazed away.
 
Tabuu said:
Generally speaking, Heatran usually ends up being the victor in many 1v1 scenarios against Talonflame. Whether it be setting up Stealth Rock, hitting it with Toxic, or phasing Talonflame with Roar, Heatran rarely "loses" and gains more than it loses when pitted against Talonflame.
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This is mostly true but bulkup/taunt Talonflame can win against heatran with lavaplume easy enough. Such a shame the bulk up set can't revenge kill as easily tho.
 
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