Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Fuzznip said:
I'm going to argue against Deoxys-S's placement in S-rank, as I strongly believe it simply doesn't have the qualities to shine in the current metagame compared to past generations.

Deoxys-S's trademark suicide lead set is significantly worse than it was in the past. The rampant use of Defoggers, which are so easy to come by, single-handedly shuts down this kind of playstyle. Furthermore, there are so many threats nowadays that can easily prevent Deoxys-S from laying down both Stealth Rock and Spikes, such as Aegislash, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Scizor, etc. An argument I recall about Deoxys-S is the fact that it's mostly used on (hyper) offense and thus it's teammates can take advantage of offensive presence to prevent a Defog or Rapid Spin user from removing the hazards; however, let's be real, in common battle conditions, I find it rather hard to believe this tactic is as viable as made to be. The number of times I've been against suicide Deoxys-S, I've eventually opened myself an opportunity to remove hazards, effectively making Deoxys-S's support nearly wasted. It really isn't that hard to A) keep Deoxys-S from setting up too many hazards and B) removing the hazards during the match. In the current metagame, you really need to be using reliable Stealth Rock setters with at least some longevity, otherwise you most likely won't be playing with hazards on your opponent's side. This is just what I've observed.

Now that I've established that suicide leads aren't exceptional this time around, I'll consider Deoxys-S's offensive Life Orb set. Firstly, take a look at the requirements for S-rank:


This simply isn't true in my opinion. Deoxys-S can't really sweep a significant portion of the metagame with next to no support; it can be shut down or revenge killed by a good number of threats, such as Aegislash, (Mega) Scizor, (Mega) Lucario, Genesect, etc. I also don't think it's strong enough to break through defensive threats such as Sylveon, Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Latias. It's also not an easy task to bring Deoxys-S in safely to begin with due to its relative frailty. It's not that unpredictable or versatile either. It uses two different sets for the most part, one of which is a suicide lead (easy to determine) and the other a late-game cleaner. Finally, I don't consider Deoxys-S's strengths to outweigh its flaws, because it has a number of evident flaws despite its number of positive traits.

I would like to hear some more opinions on this, as I'm not sure if I'm just missing something apparent here, but for now, Deoxys-S should be moved to A+. It's still good at what it does, but I don't think it's exceptional to the extent that it could potentially be suspected and even banned, as in the past.
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Well congrats on having one of the first well thought out posts against Deoxys-S. I will agree with you that suicide leading is not as effective as it used to be due to defog. However, it's still doable, and Deoxys-S is still the best suicide lead available. That alone would put it in A in my opinion.

Now let's talk about the LO set. This one is possibly the best revenge killer in the game right now (competing with CB Talonflame for that spot.) Not only does he outspeed every common choice scarf user (up to Garchomp), but he has the ability to change moves AND get a power boost from LO, which completely makes up for his average attacking stats. Psycho boost hits an insane power level, doing around 75% to a physically defensive Rotom-W. Just about any sweeper (maybe with a little prior damage) can be OHKO'd by Psycho Boost.

I don't know where you got the list of things that revenge kill the offensive set, but most of them are just wrong. Scarf Genesect is outsped and OHKO'd by HP Fire or Fire Punch, and Lucario is outsped and OHKO'd by Psycho Boost (bullet punch does around 50%). Mega Scizor can only do 65% with bullet punch before being OHKO'd (after stealth rock) by HP Fire. I'll give you CB Scizor, which can KO with bullet punch after some LO recoil, and Aegislash, which does similar damage with Shadow Sneak (Deoxys-S can't really touch Aegislash anyway though).

Oh yeah and you can clean with it too. Thanks for reminding me. So basically with offensive Deo-S you get an amazing revenge killer and solid cleaner in one teamslot.

It's not supposed to break walls or sweep entire teams, it's just an absolutely amazing revenge killer (and also the best suicide lead if you feel like it). That is why it makes it to S.
 
Oranos said:
On the subject of pranksters...how is sableye not ranked?! This gem has been the cornerstone of my highest ranked teams and is just so friggin useful. He prevents any sort of set up with taunt, can burn threats and heal himself...All with priority! Add a stab knock off and he becomes incredibly disruptive. He has amazing typing in dark/ghost and can be surprisingly resilient with a bulky ev spread, being able to switch into a plethora of moves without too much trouble. I generally prefer him to klefki, who I only use when I need a fairy to wall dragon sweepers. I would absolutely say sableye at B+ and perhaps higher

Also, glad to see the OP get updated :D
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Sableye should be B+ or A and I think that would put Mega Banette at B-/C+ as they both try to do the same job in a different way. Regular Banette however doesnt even deserve a mention.
 
Fuzznip said:
I'm going to argue against Deoxys-S's placement in S-rank, as I strongly believe it simply doesn't have the qualities to shine in the current metagame compared to past generations.

Deoxys-S's trademark suicide lead set is significantly worse than it was in the past. The rampant use of Defoggers, which are so easy to come by, single-handedly shuts down this kind of playstyle. Furthermore, there are so many threats nowadays that can easily prevent Deoxys-S from laying down both Stealth Rock and Spikes, such as Aegislash, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Scizor, etc. An argument I recall about Deoxys-S is the fact that it's mostly used on (hyper) offense and thus it's teammates can take advantage of offensive presence to prevent a Defog or Rapid Spin user from removing the hazards; however, let's be real, in common battle conditions, I find it rather hard to believe this tactic is as viable as made to be. The number of times I've been against suicide Deoxys-S, I've eventually opened myself an opportunity to remove hazards, effectively making Deoxys-S's support nearly wasted. It really isn't that hard to A) keep Deoxys-S from setting up too many hazards and B) removing the hazards during the match. In the current metagame, you really need to be using reliable Stealth Rock setters with at least some longevity, otherwise you most likely won't be playing with hazards on your opponent's side. This is just what I've observed.

Now that I've established that suicide leads aren't exceptional this time around, I'll consider Deoxys-S's offensive Life Orb set. Firstly, take a look at the requirements for S-rank:


This simply isn't true in my opinion. Deoxys-S can't really sweep a significant portion of the metagame with next to no support; it can be shut down or revenge killed by a good number of threats, such as Aegislash, (Mega) Scizor, (Mega) Lucario, Genesect, etc. I also don't think it's strong enough to break through defensive threats such as Sylveon, Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Latias. It's also not an easy task to bring Deoxys-S in safely to begin with due to its relative frailty. It's not that unpredictable or versatile either. It uses two different sets for the most part, one of which is a suicide lead (easy to determine) and the other a late-game cleaner. Finally, I don't consider Deoxys-S's strengths to outweigh its flaws, because it has a number of evident flaws despite its number of positive traits.

I would like to hear some more opinions on this, as I'm not sure if I'm just missing something apparent here, but for now, Deoxys-S should be moved to A+. It's still good at what it does, but I don't think it's exceptional to the extent that it could potentially be suspected and even banned, as in the past.
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Jesus, I thought we were going to drop this...but unlike other posts proposing the drop of Deoxys-S, I'll give you the credit of actually coming up with legitimate arguments.

As far as Defog/Rapid Spin goes, the only two Pokemon that can safely come in against Deoxys-S are Mandibuzz and Starmie (assuming that we're talking about the more common options of attacks, with Thunderbolt being almost never used). The others are hit Super-Effectively by a move and 2HKO'd at worst. Forretress, Excadrill, Tentacruel, Hitmontop, Donphan, Scizor, Skarmory, etc. cannot safely switch into Deoxys-S, especially if one mispredicts and switches into an Offensive Set. It is a harder set to use--that I will not argue against.

Offensive Deoxys-S...honestly, Chansey, Latias, Aegislash, and Ferrothorn at their most Physically Defensive can truly switch into Deoxys-S. Chansey and Ferrothorn are 3HKO'd by Superpower or Fire Punch, respectively. Scizor would never go into the match risking against a Fire Punch.

24 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 160-192 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This defogger has been roasted. Oh, and Bullet Punch?
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scizor will likely lose if it decides to switch in.

232 SpA Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-148 (41 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Latias must choose between Roost to heal the damage or Defog to remove the hazards and become crippled.

The biggest factor with Deoxys-S is the surprise factor. You'll NEVER know what set it will truly run until the end of turn 1-3. You won't know what to do against it entirely (unless Priority, which Deoxys-S can actually survive a single hit from Priority, unlike Gengar) and you'll be forced to scout it or be patient. Also, no mention from you about the Dual Screens and TrickScarf set? Oh well.

Once again, THANK YOU for posting something intelligent about Deoxys-S. You can't imagine how long it's been since I've seen a good argument against its S Rank
 
It seems to me that Keldeo is pretty key to rain's potential power right now. In rain Keldeo can forego Specs for a devastating Life Orb set; with a Swift Swimmer using similar coverage it can form a core similar to Talonflame + CB Staraptor in that Keldeo can smash a million holes into water resists and special walls (with Secret Sword) in order to enable a SS cleanup down the line. Swift Swimmers' issue at the moment is extreme frailty, compounded by a dependence on LO, a lack of breathing room to boost themselves (making them most efficient IMO as extremely fast wallbreakers/cleaners), and struggling to OHKO things without those boosts, leaving them open to being tanked and picked off.

Another thing to note is that although rain teams do best when veering toward Hyper Offense, walls like Goodra, Ferrothorn and Tentacruel should by no means be discounted; they work similarly to Volt-Turn in that they come in to cockblock a threat rain HO has very few ways of dealing with, then give you room to double switch or TW or something while the opponent brings in a way to cope with it. They're very effective at getting your wallbreakers in safely. I doubt walls are necessary on any HO rain team, but those teams ARE particularly susceptible to having gaping holes in their defensive synergy.

My biggest trouble so far with running rain has been strong priority moves... SSers are mostly dispatched by Brave Bird (Kingdra, Ludiculo, made worse by Keldeo's inability to check Talonflame) or Bullet Punch/Vacuum Wave (the Fossils). Of course teammates can help here, but the ubiquity of these users along with the commonplace of Zard Y and Tyranitar sometimes delays attempted sweeps/cleanups well past rain's preference for early game holepunching. Maybe I'm just shite, though.

Basically I'm saying Keldeo + Politoed is as good as ever, and the combination alone merits Politoed's place in A (-). I'd certainly love a primer of sorts that could articulate more synergistic/relevant uses for rain outside of simply listing powerful threats, though...
 
Would Rock Head Aggron still be viable? He could use Rock Polish and a Life Orb or maybe just a Choice Band. Or are there too many special sweepers now?
Is Aerodactyl still better without his Mega? He gets his boost in attack, defense and speed with the freedom to use whatever he wants.
Mega Houndoom is pretty much useless outside of sun but Houndoom is probably going to be more useful now as he isn't weak to Fairy and can learn Sludge Bomb.
 
eddiefiv said:
Would Rock Head Aggron still be viable? He could use Rock Polish and a Life Orb or maybe just a Choice Band. Or are there too many special sweepers now?
Is Aerodactyl still better without his Mega? He gets his boost in attack, defense and speed with the freedom to use whatever he wants.
Mega Houndoom is pretty much useless outside of sun but Houndoom is probably going to be more useful now as he isn't weak to Fairy and can learn Sludge Bomb.
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For Aggron, it's not about the fact that there are too many special sweepers, but the fact it has 2 4x weaknesses to some of the most common offensive types in the game, Fighting and Ground. It honestly cannot afford to run a Life Orb set because of this.

Aerodactyl can be an effective lead with Taunt, but prankster users of it do its job much better in that department.

Mega Doom is NOT useless out of the sun. In fact, I feel it's worse off due to losing 1/8 health with each turn, even when not attacking. It can use Nasty Plot to boost its SpA that way, but believe me, Solar Power is not an amazing ability to have on a frail Pokemon. Other than that, it's true that it's neutral to Fairies and can hit them hard with Sludge Bomb, but I hardly see anything in it to justify using a Mega slot on it.

Edit: grammar
 
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eddiefiv said:
Would Rock Head Aggron still be viable? He could use Rock Polish and a Life Orb or maybe just a Choice Band. Or are there too many special sweepers now?
Is Aerodactyl still better without his Mega? He gets his boost in attack, defense and speed with the freedom to use whatever he wants.
Mega Houndoom is pretty much useless outside of sun but Houndoom is probably going to be more useful now as he isn't weak to Fairy and can learn Sludge Bomb.
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I wouldn't say he's useless without sun. He has nasty plot, which with one turn of set up boosts its Sp A more than solar power, doesn't have recoil, and can be used multiple times. The only other fire typed nasty plot users are Infernape, Simisear, and Ninetales. With 115 speed and 140 speed, I definitely don't think it's outclassed in this regard.
 
The worst part about having a sun dependent mega ability is that any sun abusing team almost certainly wants megazard Y on it, I just can't see any reason whatsoever to use mega houndoom, which is such a pity, considering how neat it's design is. As for aerodactyl, if I remember correctly the general consensus on its discussion thread was that it was better off without the mega evolution, as it benefits little from the new ability and can do more damage with other sets
 
TooMuchSugar said:
Well congrats on having one of the first well thought out posts against Deoxys-S. I will agree with you that suicide leading is not as effective as it used to be due to defog. However, it's still doable, and Deoxys-S is still the best suicide lead available. That alone would put it in A in my opinion.
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Oh absolutely. I'm not doubting its effectiveness, it's still one of the best, if not the best, suicide leads in the game. Although the suicide lead playstyle is not as good as it was, Deoxys-S still packs immediate pressure and takes advantage of that well. I agree that this makes it a top A threat.

Now let's talk about the LO set. This one is possibly the best revenge killer in the game right now (competing with CB Talonflame for that spot.) Not only does he outspeed every common choice scarf user (up to Garchomp), but he has the ability to change moves AND get a power boost from LO, which completely makes up for his average attacking stats. Psycho boost hits an insane power level, doing around 75% to a physically defensive Rotom-W. Just about any sweeper (maybe with a little prior damage) can be OHKO'd by Psycho Boost.
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I agree with you that Deoxys-S is bar none one of the best revenge killers available, but I'm still not entirely convinced that it's good to the extent of sitting in S-rank. With its blazing Speed, running Life Orb does make up for its average attacking stats; however, oftentimes, it isn't quite enough to do the job unless the opposition is severely weakened. Furthermore, the fact that it often has to blow something up with Psycho Boost, thus causing its offensive capabilities to go down the pooper and being forced to switch out, keeps it in check in my opinion. As I said before, Deoxys-S doesn't get too many switch-in opportunities barring Volturn and double switch predictions.

I don't know where you got the list of things that revenge kill the offensive set, but most of them are just wrong. Scarf Genesect is outsped and OHKO'd by HP Fire or Fire Punch, and Lucario is outsped and OHKO'd by Psycho Boost (bullet punch does around 50%). Mega Scizor can only do 65% with bullet punch before being OHKO'd (after stealth rock) by HP Fire. I'll give you CB Scizor, which can KO with bullet punch after some LO recoil, and Aegislash, which does similar damage with Shadow Sneak (Deoxys-S can't really touch Aegislash anyway though).
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I was considering ExtremeSpeed Genesect (does 55%+) when I said that since I realize Deoxys-S is faster. Even though some priority doesn't actually OHKO Deoxys-S, the fact that Stealth Rock damage + LO recoil + 50% priority damage = ~70% damage is a big deal and definitely reduces Deoxys-S's longevity, especially if it was brought in earlier to revenge kill something or what have you. Also, that was a really mediocre list of threats I pulled out, there are still others, such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite (who has Multiscale), Bisharp, and Azumarill, among whatever else exists. You also can't forget if Deoxys-S used Superpower beforehand, it's that much more vulnerable to the vast amount of priority in the tier. Also, Prankster users such as Sableye, Klefki, and Thundurus can cripple it pretty easily. You can even do some Intimidate tactics to weaken its Superpower/Fire Punch so something such as Tyranitar and Scizor aren't OHKOed. It's not just revenge killers either that end/weaken Deoxys-S, there are threats that can simply survive its attacks and hit back hard. For example, standard 112 Atk/160 SpA Deoxys-S does 60% at best with Ice Beam against 0/0 Latias, Goodra takes pathetic damage from mostly everything, 0/0 Kyurem-B isn't even OHKOed by Psycho Boost with Stealth Rock, 0/0 Gyarados has a super good chance at living Psycho Boost after Stealth Rock, Mega Gyarados isn't OHKOed by Superpower, etc. I mean, I can go through a bunch more here but I think you get the point I'm trying to make.

I know Deoxys-S is a phenomenal sweeper, I get that, but I feel like it has enough shortcomings to make it a workable threat and thus not deserving a spot in S-rank. It's not this standalone be-all-end-all kind of sweeper. It needs support.

ShadowMarioGalaxy64 said:
As far as Defog/Rapid Spin goes, the only two Pokemon that can safely come in against Deoxys-S are Mandibuzz and Starmie (assuming that we're talking about the more common options of attacks, with Thunderbolt being almost never used). The others are hit Super-Effectively by a move and 2HKO'd at worst. Forretress, Excadrill, Tentacruel, Hitmontop, Donphan, Scizor, Skarmory, etc. cannot safely switch into Deoxys-S, especially if one mispredicts and switches into an Offensive Set. It is a harder set to use--that I will not argue against.
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I'm not sure why Mandibuzz and Starmie are the only Defog/Rapid Spin Pokemon that can switch into Deoxys-S. Suicide Deoxys-S only runs Fire Punch and sometimes Superpower. That means Pokemon such as Zapdos, Latias, Latios, Tentacruel, Skarmory, and Mew are more or less free to switch in. Obviously they can be Taunted, but that basically means you're only getting one hazard up against the likes of Zapdos, Skarmory (I think BB 2HKOes), and Lati@s if it's a 1 on 1.

Offensive Deoxys-S...honestly, Chansey, Latias, Aegislash, and Ferrothorn at their most Physically Defensive can truly switch into Deoxys-S. Chansey and Ferrothorn are 3HKO'd by Superpower or Fire Punch, respectively. Scizor would never go into the match risking against a Fire Punch.

24 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 160-192 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This defogger has been roasted. Oh, and Bullet Punch?
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scizor will likely lose if it decides to switch in.

232 SpA Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-148 (41 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Latias must choose between Roost to heal the damage or Defog to remove the hazards and become crippled.
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I don't know why you're comparing offensive Deoxys-S to Defoggers. I'm pointing out that Defoggers are dealing with the suicide lead set; many of them can't deal with Deoxys-S's offensive set. I've already addressed why I think offensive Deoxys-S isn't S-rank material above.

The biggest factor with Deoxys-S is the surprise factor. You'll NEVER know what set it will truly run until the end of turn 1-3. You won't know what to do against it entirely (unless Priority, which Deoxys-S can actually survive a single hit from Priority, unlike Gengar) and you'll be forced to scout it or be patient. Also, no mention from you about the Dual Screens and TrickScarf set? Oh well.
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Deoxys-S isn't that surprising. Sometimes it's blatantly obvious whether its a suicide lead or offensive sweeper based on team preview, what it switches in against, when it switches in, etc. I've never seen TrickScarf, so I'm going to assume it's nonexistent (that's actually by far one of the worst sets imo if people actually use that). Dual Screens is not that strong nowadays either, Defog can remove them from the field.


To reiterate, I'm not trying to underestimate Deoxys-S ability to fulfill two roles pretty effectively, because it does. I'm just saying the XY metagame has shaped up to carry many reasonable an effective responses to whatever set Deoxys-S tries to pull off. I'm still convinced that Deoxys-S needs to be moved down to A+, unless proven otherwise I guess.
 
ShadowMarioGalaxy64 said:
Jesus, I thought we were going to drop this...but unlike other posts proposing the drop of Deoxys-S, I'll give you the credit of actually coming up with legitimate arguments.

As far as Defog/Rapid Spin goes, the only two Pokemon that can safely come in against Deoxys-S are Mandibuzz and Starmie (assuming that we're talking about the more common options of attacks, with Thunderbolt being almost never used). The others are hit Super-Effectively by a move and 2HKO'd at worst. Forretress, Excadrill, Tentacruel, Hitmontop, Donphan, Scizor, Skarmory, etc. cannot safely switch into Deoxys-S, especially if one mispredicts and switches into an Offensive Set. It is a harder set to use--that I will not argue against.

Offensive Deoxys-S...honestly, Chansey, Latias, Aegislash, and Ferrothorn at their most Physically Defensive can truly switch into Deoxys-S. Chansey and Ferrothorn are 3HKO'd by Superpower or Fire Punch, respectively. Scizor would never go into the match risking against a Fire Punch.

24 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 160-192 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This defogger has been roasted. Oh, and Bullet Punch?
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scizor will likely lose if it decides to switch in.

232 SpA Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-148 (41 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Latias must choose between Roost to heal the damage or Defog to remove the hazards and become crippled.

The biggest factor with Deoxys-S is the surprise factor. You'll NEVER know what set it will truly run until the end of turn 1-3. You won't know what to do against it entirely (unless Priority, which Deoxys-S can actually survive a single hit from Priority, unlike Gengar) and you'll be forced to scout it or be patient. Also, no mention from you about the Dual Screens and TrickScarf set? Oh well.

Once again, THANK YOU for posting something intelligent about Deoxys-S. You can't imagine how long it's been since I've seen a good argument against its S Rank
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The problem with Deoxys-S being S-Rank this generation isn't that it isn't good at setting up hazards. The problem is that even despite the fact that Deoxys-S gets those hazards up, they will inevitably be removed from the field later in the match despite Deoxys-S doing its job, even if you can't stop it from doing its job while it is in. No one cares that only Mandibuzz and Starmie are the 'mons that can safely switch in on common sets because you don't even have to deal with Deoxys-S as its setting up. In previous generations it wasn't so much that Deoxys-S was too good at its job (it was), it was that there weren't sufficient or abundant methods of removing hazards. Most of the Pokemon in Gen IV and V who had Rapid Spin were honestly not very good at all, and it was almost a liability to run these Pokemon on your team with the exception that hazard play and management was so important. Now that Defog is everywhere, and we have even more 'mons that learn Rapid Spin, hazard removal + a good 'mon using it is no longer this special luxury. It's the standard.

The perspective you're taking assumes that because Deoxys-S can't be stopped from putting hazards up, or stopped as easily, it's S-Tier by that merit. But not only are there more ways to remove them from the field when Deoxys-S is gone, and those 'mons using those methods are actually good, its even easier to kill Deoxys-S this generation with the increase in priority and trappers.

I also don't buy the idea that Deoxys-S is super threatening because of surprise factor. Surprise is only effective when the number of different relevant sets a Pokemon can run have significant impact, both on its own, and if you guess the set wrong. I don't think Deoxys-S has the stats to make that happen. If surprise alone were enough of a problem, we'd be seeing Mew everywhere, and its been UU since Gen V.

I'm not arguing for Deoxys-S to not be S Tier, I'm just pointing out some issues of consideration.
 
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eddiefiv said:
And does Flash Fire warrant not Mega evolving to hold a different item?
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If not used on a sun team / with manual sun, you're right that a life orb Houndoom would hit harder specially and have a better ability than mega houndoom. However, the 20 BS increase in speed, 10 BS in sp. def., and 40 BS. in def. are all also beneficial. I personally prefer speed + bulk to power, but it is your preference - is 95 speed enough for what you're looking for?
 
finncent1 said:
If not used on a sun team / with manual sun, you're right that a life orb Houndoom would hit harder specially and have a better ability than mega houndoom. However, the 20 BS increase in speed, 10 BS in sp. def., and 40 BS. in def. are all also beneficial. I personally prefer speed + bulk to power, but it is your preference - is 95 speed enough for what you're looking for?
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I'm just trying to keep the conversation going lol. And I just want to get a read on what the consensus is on most Megas
 
eddiefiv said:
Would Rock Head Aggron still be viable? He could use Rock Polish and a Life Orb or maybe just a Choice Band. Or are there too many special sweepers now?
Is Aerodactyl still better without his Mega? He gets his boost in attack, defense and speed with the freedom to use whatever he wants.
Mega Houndoom is pretty much useless outside of sun but Houndoom is probably going to be more useful now as he isn't weak to Fairy and can learn Sludge Bomb.
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Normal Aggron is just not that good, with any Rock Polish sweep being ended with a strong Mach Punch or even an Earthquake from anything that survives your attack. Mega Aggron, though, can do Rock Polish much better IMO, with a good attack, tremendous bulk, and the loss of its rock typing. The loss of STAB on rock moves and the ability to freely spam Head Smash hurts, but M-Aggron is just better in OU in my opinion.

Using 24 HP Evs (which leaves enough EVs to max attack and to outspeed Jolly Talonflame after Rock Polish (232 speed EVs with Adamant)):
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 82-99 (28.5 - 34.4%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO

That's the strongest priority move that will ever hit Aggron, and it will only 3HKO with a liberal amount of hacking (Conkeldurr wins against M-Aggron though.) Almost all priority moves are physical, with the exception of Vacuum Wave and the sole user of that is Lucario. Basically, priority does not kill M-Aggron ever. And even normal physical attacks hardly do anything, with nothing short of STAB SE attacks from powerful physical attackers being able to 2HKO, and only absurdly powerful attacks like Mega Medicham's HJK or Banded Victini's V-Create being able to OHKO.

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 177-208 (61.6 - 72.4%)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 204-243 (71 - 84.6%)

I think people have ragged too much on M-Aggron for not having any recovery and thus being unable to wall effectively, but I think it works as an enormously bulky attacker. However, it's held back by a reliance on Heavy Slam, which doesn't hit very hard on certain targets but is still generally better than Iron Head. It's also pretty frail on the special side. It also can't boost its attack, and 140 attack, while high, doesn't OHKO a lot of stuff unless it's SE meaning M-Aggron really has to rely on its bulk, so it's susceptible to being worn down.

It wouldn't be my first choice in mega but I think it's OU viable.

Aerodactyl, I've heard, is seriously underwhelming, but I've not used or seen much of it.

Houndoom's Nasty Plot set is better than most sets that use sun, mostly because the health loss hurts and why not just use Charizard-Y? There are some advantages to using sun, like higher powered fire moves and powering down water moves, but I think Nasty Plot is generally better. Also, Houndoom can bring most of its counters down with it using Destiny Bond, which is pretty useful.
 
Sergeant Spooky said:
I think people have ragged too much on M-Aggron for not having any recovery and thus being unable to wall effectively, but I think it works as an enormously bulky attacker. However, it's held back by a reliance on Heavy Slam, which doesn't hit very hard on certain targets but is still generally better than Iron Head. It's also pretty frail on the special side. It also can't boost its attack, and 140 attack, while high, doesn't OHKO a lot of stuff unless it's SE meaning M-Aggron really has to rely on its bulk, so it's susceptible to being worn down.
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No, trust me, I want more than anything for him to be good. Once again, I want some of these guys discussed enough to be ranked, since that's what this is for. I personally would put him at B+ with regular at maybe C- at the most.
Sergeant Spooky said:
Aerodactyl, I've heard, is seriously underwhelming, but I've not used or seen much of it.
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I think the fangs and Iron Head could be useful but the lack of STAB other than Fly that is affected by Tough Claws is disappointing.
 
I don't think Mega Aerodactyl fits in the ranks here, maybe D, because while it does have insanely fast taunt, you're really not taunting anything that fast anyways, Tough Claws doesn't boost StoneQuake and even after the boost for fangs, they are still too weak to be used as main move, I don't see anything wrong with putting 1 fang, but then you'll probably want StoneQuake and Taunt/SR, it also is still frail, and you lost the ability to hold Focus Sash, Mega Aerodactyl has a niche over Aerodactyl, but it also uses a mega slot.

I do agree about Mega Aggron being C/C+ though.

Mega Abomasnow is worthy of C+ IMO, as it forces many switches, it will oftenly get a free Sub, it also has 100% accuracy Blizzard, it has the buffed Energy Ball, Giga Drain to heal, Powerful Ice Shard, Focus Blast coverage, and EQ coverage. It also has more options such as Leech Seed. Mega Abomasnow is also very versatile, good amount of moves to choose from, can go Physical, Special, Mixed, and Stall.

But I have to apologize as I forgot something really important on Politoed discussion: Manaphy, I have completely forgot about this pokemon, and so I think Manaphy dropping to OU is a really good reason to use rain team. And thus Politaod, so now I really don't mind him being A.
 
eddiefiv said:
No, trust me, I want more than anything for him to be good. Once again, I want some of these guys discussed enough to be ranked, since that's what this is for. I personally would put him at B+ with regular at maybe C- at the most.

I think the fangs and Iron Head could be useful but the lack of STAB other than Fly that is affected by Tough Claws is disappointing.
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I've seen an interesting combination of toxic + skydrop. Skydrop hits at a decent power of ≈ 120 including stab and tough claws, so it can damage things coming off of 135 attack. Also, you get one free turn of toxic damage, and prevent the target from switching. It's a tad gimmicky, but it does work.
 
With Talonflame & Aegislash all over the place. Not really
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 299-354 (77.8 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It's bulk isn't as good as you give it credit for, it has extremely low speed to an extent that Conkeldurr can outspeed it and thus not use Mach Punch but Drain Punch.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 272-324 (70.8 - 84.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It also is weak to rocks, I don't think it fits in the B tier, it need heavy support.
 
Mega Abomasnow is difficult to switch into safely. Talonflame gets OHKO'd by Blizzard on the switch after Hail, while Aegislash takes over 50% from EQ. AV Conkeldurr takes at least 50% from Blizzard + Hail too. They all force Mega Abomasnow out, but can't come in themselves safely without taking big damage. Priority STAB Ice Shard from base 132 Atk is also nice to have on a team. Typing-wise it's lacking defensively though. It resists Grass, Electric and Water, and that's it I think. I think it's C material at least. Auto Hail is still kinda cool.
 
finncent1 said:
It also resists ground
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Try not to double post, seeing a lot of 'em in the past few pages.

Although he does resist ground, and get EQ coverage; anything that he would hit with such a move will threaten him out almost immediately. It's nice for throwing people off and predicting switches, but does not warrant him being necessarily "better off" because of it.

After using him quite heavily the first couple months after X/Y dropped, I'd say he is rather threatening to see, although underwhelming at the same time. He hits like a f**king train. But that train literally catches fire and melts in front of you if a Charmeleon uses ember. He requires a bit of support at least, and will still possibly need more if a moveset is different than predicted. 132/105/132/105 is by no means bad either, and his typing is unique and very useful, but still lacks in a world where there are powerhouses like M-Luc waiting to rip his face off and use it to stay warm.

Overall, I'd say M-Abomasnow fits well into a B-/C+ category. The numbers have been run and discussed previously, I just don't think an actual ranking was ever agreed upon. So, I think it would be fitting to see something which seems lackluster prove itself with more usage on a properly outfitted team.
 
Are we going to establish an A- ranking. I think that Kyurem-B deserves this rank. While Kyurem-B has an overwhelming attack stat, and movepool, it is not A Rank easy to fit it into teams. It is weak to all forms of hazards and takes 25% from SR, so Defog is needed. In addition, it is weak to fighting, steel, fairy, rock, and dragon, four are more of the common attacking moves in the game.

It does destroy stall that is not a joke, but its speed stat is sort of underwhelming 95, which is slower than most common sweepers right now... Lucario, Terrakion, Keldeo, Genesect can all OHKO back with super effective moves.

I'll add more if there are people who agree with me, but I just don't think Kyurem-B is that easy to fit as other A rankers such as Deo-D, Scizor, and Conkeldurr.
 
So what we can agree upon is that Mega Abomasnow has plenty of counters, but Checks are shaky at best?

I think he fits firmly in the B- category, then.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

Mega Abomasnow is on the lower end of this spectrum. It definitely cannot sweep or wall much of the metagame, but it has an undeniable offensive niche based on its great mixed attacking stats and high powered moves to abuse them with. It is really hard to switch into it safely, as its moves will deal a shit-ton to anything that tries to come into it... however, it is so slow and its typing is so bad defensively, once you get something in that can handle an Ice Shard, it becomes a non-issue.

Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers.

Mega Abomasnow almost always manages to do SOMETHING every match due to its power and decent bulk + STAB priority, but it does have some major flaws that hold it barely over a C rank. It almost always manages to do something to contribute, and its potential is undeniable, but it has too many problems to be a top-tier threat.
 
Laurel said:
Are we going to establish an A- ranking. I think that Kyurem-B deserves this rank. While Kyurem-B has an overwhelming attack stat, and movepool, it is not A Rank easy to fit it into teams. It is weak to all forms of hazards and takes 25% from SR, so Defog is needed. In addition, it is weak to fighting, steel, fairy, rock, and dragon, four are more of the common attacking moves in the game.

It does destroy stall that is not a joke, but its speed stat is sort of underwhelming 95, which is slower than most common sweepers right now... Lucario, Terrakion, Keldeo, Genesect can all OHKO back with super effective moves.

I'll add more if there are people who agree with me, but I just don't think Kyurem-B is that easy to fit as other A rankers such as Deo-D, Scizor, and Conkeldurr.
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We have things with a 4x SR weakness in a A+ so Defog support alone doesn't justify dropping it to A-.
Also Kyurem-B is not just an anti-stall pokemon since nothing else even comes close to its ability to set up on and destroy extremely common and high-rank pokemon such as Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur, which are found in balanced and even offensive teams as well.
Kyurem-B isn't slower than Lucario before it mega evolves and in fact Lucario will always lose against Kyu-B 1 on 1 if Kyu-B is already out (it is very unlikely that Lucario will switch out after mega evolving).

In short Kyurem-B has a clearly defined niche in this metagame, no real counters and overwhelming power, meaning it should be A+ rank.
 
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