how does talonflame check it at all?
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Pokémon Medicham
- Thread starter Ash Borer
- Start date
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Priority BraveBird....OHKO....or did you just not know?
Proirity Brave Bird.
Comes in after a Dead mon, and Mega Medicham is forced out.
Edit: Greninja'd, but I'm a Shedinja, so idc
Well, a lot of people seem to be asking for it.
Anyways, I guess you're right. Talonflame alone would prevent it from ever getting anywhere.
Pretty much everyone.
Plenty of stuff can check Medicham, not just Talonflame. UU has tons of stuff too, like Scarfed Chandelure and Scarfed Gardevoir.
Talonflame revenge kills tons of stuff, it's the best revenge killer in the game. It OHKOs a ton of top threats, that's why it's used so much.
There's also this thing called "switching to a talonflame counter" that prevents Talonflame from making things it checks completely bad in OU.
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I still feel like Medicham will have much more success in the UU meta than in the OU. Its base 100 speed just isn't fast enough for what it needs to do. Also, if you haven't noticed, there are a ton of things that have seriously dropped in usage because of Talonflame. Unfortunately, if you're TFlame bait, there is a good chance you won't be in OU.
Lucario sweeps, Medicham breaks down walls. A defensive team can be prepared for mega Luc, but nothing can really prepare for mega Cham.
They're different enough. You save Luc for late game to sweep, Medicham is something you bring out early to break stuff down. My favorite Medicham set has sub and drain punch, which makes a great lead vs. Rotom and can do some serious damage early game. The set has its issues (have to choose 2 out of hi jump kick, ice punch, and fire punch, aka you lose to either Lando or Aegislash or sacrifice your most powerful move vs. basically everything else) but it's still a good choice for a mega if you want to set up a sweep with something else.
Keldeo, CharY, mega Venusaur, even Genesect and Lucario sets that lack espeed are destroyed by Talonflame. I think they're doing ok.
They're different enough. You save Luc for late game to sweep, Medicham is something you bring out early to break stuff down. My favorite Medicham set has sub and drain punch, which makes a great lead vs. Rotom and can do some serious damage early game. The set has its issues (have to choose 2 out of hi jump kick, ice punch, and fire punch, aka you lose to either Lando or Aegislash or sacrifice your most powerful move vs. basically everything else) but it's still a good choice for a mega if you want to set up a sweep with something else.
Keldeo, CharY, mega Venusaur, even Genesect and Lucario sets that lack espeed are destroyed by Talonflame. I think they're doing ok.
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My Talonflame didn't leave a dent in it with Adamant 252 Brave Bird o-o
What it's best at is getting rid of walls and defensive cores, and 100 speed is enough for that. Most defensive Pokemon are base 80 or below.
Like Scizor, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Lucario, Greninja, Conkeldurr, Venusaur, Pinsir, and tons of others? Talonflame OHKOs something like half of OU, it's just good.
This is either an untrue statement or 0 IVs.
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 326-386 (124.9 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Mega Medicham: 252-296 (96.5 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 326-386 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Medicham: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The latter 3 sets are probably never going to happen.
Please think.
Talonflame cannot come in on medicham or it dies. It can only come in after medicham killed something. Therefore, talonflame does not prevent medicham from killing things.
Now...and pay attention here, because this is obviously an extremely confusing concept for some...after talonflame comes in, medicham *gasp!* switches out.
Woah! Hey! Pokemon can switch out of their checks! Wowzers!
There should be a rule that you should know the difference between a counter and a check before being allowed to post things like this.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 253-298 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Drain Punch vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 135-159 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 234-276 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 181-213 (55.1 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Talonflame is literally able to come in on anything Medicham can throw besides the rare Thunderpunch at least once; making it a very reliable check. God forbid a player *gasp* predicts the right move and switches Talonflame in on a Drain Punch before proceeding to OHKO it with Brave Bird.
You can't use the "Oh I'm just going to switch out herp derp" argument because I can easily say that I'll use prediction. Nothing useful comes out of the argument. What is certain though is that Talonflame is a reliable check to Medicham (and a good portion of the OU tier atm) and can reliably come in and revenge kill Medicham.
If Stealth Rock is up, Talonflame can't come in on any of those (except Drain Punch.) There's also the fact that Talonflame can't come in on Thunder Punch. Talonflame is NOT a counter to Medicham, it's just not, it can't come in if SR is up and it can't come in on one of Medicham's common coverage moves. It's only a reliable check.
It will also lose 26% of its health in recoil if it uses brave bird.
It's the third most common move... and under half of the Medichams on the ladder even have HJK. And a third have fake out. It's actually sort of depressing.
Fake Out isn't just useless, it's detrimental. Medicham is strapped for moves as it is and Fake Out gives no coverage.
I don't see the point in using Medicham if you're not using HJK: yeah it can backfire in a nasty way, but it's the strongest non-choiced attack in the game. If you're not running it, why not just use Conkeldurr? Conkeldurr is far bulkier and has a better typing, and its Guts-boosted punch moves hit harder. But nothing Conkedlurr can do can even compare to Medicham's HJK.
Did you just refuse to read the entire post or...?
People really need to understand the difference between a check and counter or just stop posting. The SR argument is just as useful at the switching or prediction argument. Who is to say that rocks will be on the field? Who is to say that it wont? If you look at the hard math, Talonflame is still able to come in at least once (again, since people didn't read, bar a rare Thunderpunch) and still OHKO with BB. This, coupled with the fact that base 100 speed is very below-average without a scarf this gen is all the reason that Medicham would do much better in lower tiers.
And by low tier he means UU...id be criminal to see this monster in anything lower.
Actually, according to the viability thread, Mega Medicham is a solid A.
In UU, this thing is easily the best Wallbreaker in the game, and.... same thing in OU actually.
I don't know what definition of counter you're using, but the definition I use is "a Pokemon that can safely switch into any of another Pokemon's commonly run and viable moves and then KO or force it out without being KOed first." A check is something that can't safely switch in, but can KO when given a free switch.
Thunderpunch is a common move, going by official data, and Talonflame can't switch into it. Even though it can switch into any of the other attacks just fine (barely), it's not a counter in the same way it wasn't a counter to Blaziken, who could use the uncommon but completely viable Stone Edge to OHKO on the switch.
Deoxys-S is S rank and it's also UU. Manaphy is A+ rank but it was also UU (until it got banned after like three days.)
I freaking love usage based tiers.
This phrase is hardly ever used, but I'd actually call Talonflame a "semi-counter". What do I mean by this? This is what I mean:
It's a counter, but it's probably much safer to play it as a check, unless you're like 100% sure it's going to use Drain/Fire Punch, and skilled players shouldn't be using Drain Punch at all, or else it has nothing over Mega Luc besides an unreliable form of recovery.
Yes, it survives all of Medicham's attacks, but Medicham needs to swap out after that once, just once, and Talonflame has taken so much damage, it's toast. Not to mention, it needs to be at 100% 90.9% health in order to actually swap in, meaning you have to refrain from using it at all until Medicham is sent out.
It's a counter, but it's probably much safer to play it as a check, unless you're like 100% sure it's going to use Drain/Fire Punch, and skilled players shouldn't be using Drain Punch at all, or else it has nothing over Mega Luc besides an unreliable form of recovery.
Just wait, the tiers will sort themselves out. Eventually.
I really think it is hard to check or counter medicham as it is unpredictable what elemental punch it is running. Ghost is the only type that could possibly counter it? Edit: talon flame with priority BB can check it losing tons of health
I'm sorry, I forgot to add something that shouldn't even need to be added if you play pokemon: stealth rock. Oh, and possible prior recoil damage. But even assuming a talonflame at full health, a 2hko calc just proves my point.
How are you going to out predict my switch in? Are you going to switch twice in the same turn? Is your talonflame going to eq my heatran, cc my ttar, or surf my rhyperior? Or are you going to take massive damage from medicham, then (assuming it lives due to no sr or no prior recoil damage, both highly unlikely) switch or u-turn right out again to counter my talonflame counter, and watch talonflame become talondead the next time it switches in on medicham? Two of these scenarios don't exist and the last one means talonflame dies to medicham regardless. There's a reason why people are concerned with something 2hkoing something else; if it gets 2hkoed it's neither a check nor a counter.
Edit 1: Not to mention that only about 9% of talonflame users put more than 4hps on their birds in the month of December according to the official stat thread.
Edit 2: I've never considered even using drain punch on Cham but look at the stats and wow, 40%? You people are crazy
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I think the key phrase here is "switch in safely". Surely not only OHKOs count as "not safe". Drain Punch does over 40% to Talonflame. After you switch out into your 'flame counter it's going to take more damage from its misplaced BB, putting it over 50% damage. This means that the next time this little dance happens, Talonflame is roasted. I don't call that a "safe switch in". This should explain why it's not a counter in the most important sense. It doesn't get OHKO'd on the switch, but it only gets to switch in once on Megacham in the most ideal circumstances.
ok so, haven't posted here in awhile and everyone saying medicham is UU is crazy. Mega medicham OHKO's somthing like 3/4 of the OU metagame with high jump kick and coverage alone. Talonflame is only barely a check to it and any good player knows that any rock type (aka: tyranitar) walls talonflame to death as well as covering medicham's weaknesses as well. And considering everything, drain punch might not be medicham's BEST move, but it does have its uses. Medicham's bulk up set makes it very viable if you invest in bulk allowing it to take physical hits pretty darn well after a bulk up and can heal with drain punch after taking a hit.
If you're going to use bulk up and drain punch, use conkeldurr instead. It's much more naturally bulky, doesn't have the crapola psychic typing attached to it, and kills stuff just the same after a bulk up or three.
Medicham is hit-and-run. It's not a sweeper. If it was meant to stay in, talonflame actually would be a counter.
Medicham is hit-and-run. It's not a sweeper. If it was meant to stay in, talonflame actually would be a counter.
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