Same reason Deoxys-S is UU and Galvantula is OU: because people are idiots.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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using mega lucario calcs as a base point for anything should be illegal as he can 2HKO EVERYTHING. seriously, don't worry if your pokemon gets 2HKO'd by mega luc, because it's going to be anyways
Shame on you all. Barring a few exceptions, Quagsire can check all physical walls. After an in depth reading of the tier description it is easy to tell you that Quagsire is A. Not C or B or B+ - A. His ability to solo wall 7/10 of that usage chart (providing Gensect isn't carrying Giga Drain) and many other massive physical threats such as Charizard-X, Mawile-M, Pinsir-M, Medicham-M and even the suspect tested Kangakhan-M. All of these pokemon need to set up to be truly dangerous. Of all wallbreakers running around today only Kyruem-B is able to break Quagsire with its massive unboosted attack. Crawdaunt almost manages to threaten Quagsire with a very dangerous Adaptability LO Knock Off (also removing a definitely needed Leftovers) but one Curse and he's back in the game.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 153-182 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's just an example. Basically given his amazing typing and God send of an ability in Unaware he's able to switch in (or come in on a sacrifice if required) on the most physically offensive flurries boosted or otherwise and proceed to Curse (and possibly Stockpile, though I debate the worth of Stockpile Quagsire) as they switch out and he's ready to start sponging hits like no tomorrow. He's able to late-game sweep teams and early game wall. While his set(s) are fairly predictable due to his shallow movepool he does have a fair few tricks, such as Haze, Yawn, and Ice Punch to cover possible threats the rest of your team isn't ready to handle. Lastly, no joke, I have stalled out one-on-one Shadow Ball Aegislash, Tri-Attack Porygon2, BoomBurst Noivern among other niche special attackers. Quagsire's bulk is no joke. He is that good. If Heatran is considered A, there is no way Quagsire isn't A.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 153-182 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's just an example. Basically given his amazing typing and God send of an ability in Unaware he's able to switch in (or come in on a sacrifice if required) on the most physically offensive flurries boosted or otherwise and proceed to Curse (and possibly Stockpile, though I debate the worth of Stockpile Quagsire) as they switch out and he's ready to start sponging hits like no tomorrow. He's able to late-game sweep teams and early game wall. While his set(s) are fairly predictable due to his shallow movepool he does have a fair few tricks, such as Haze, Yawn, and Ice Punch to cover possible threats the rest of your team isn't ready to handle. Lastly, no joke, I have stalled out one-on-one Shadow Ball Aegislash, Tri-Attack Porygon2, BoomBurst Noivern among other niche special attackers. Quagsire's bulk is no joke. He is that good. If Heatran is considered A, there is no way Quagsire isn't A.
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im telling you as an OU mod: Quagsire is not A rank.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 283-334 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 216-253 (54.8 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that these are all calcs done with the most spammable moves that these Pokemon have, so it's not like it takes any huge predictions to 2HKO Quagsire on the switch.
Even Noivern without a boosting item can 2HKO Quagsire with Boomburst, so I'm not sure how you managed that one.
252 SpA Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 177-209 (44.9 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It can't switch into any of the Pokemon you listed except for Mega Charizard X and Porygon2, and walling a Porygon2 isn't an impressive feat at all.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 283-334 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 216-253 (54.8 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that these are all calcs done with the most spammable moves that these Pokemon have, so it's not like it takes any huge predictions to 2HKO Quagsire on the switch.
Even Noivern without a boosting item can 2HKO Quagsire with Boomburst, so I'm not sure how you managed that one.
252 SpA Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 177-209 (44.9 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It can't switch into any of the Pokemon you listed except for Mega Charizard X and Porygon2, and walling a Porygon2 isn't an impressive feat at all.
Magnegun Concurring is great, but try to contribute something worthwhile to the articulation of Pokemon relative to their potential spots, yeah?
You can concur but the points I have contested are about as close to facts as you can get without being facts. Quagsire's typing, ability, moves, and overall package presents a stubborn and dangerous wall which can and will emerge as a bulky sweeper if you aren't prepared for it.
Treecko Edit: You fail to account for the +1 to defense Quagsire will inevitably have either prior to those pokemon coming in or during the first hit. Either way he'll proceed to recover and boost. Noivern lost to +1 Ice Punch.
If you look at Pokemon so statically you're not going to get the real picture of the battle. Quagsire has a lot of switch in opportunity; that includes something else dying because his bulk makes just about everything an initial 2HKO at best and that gives him ample time to properly set up.
Edit2: I didn't say he could switch into them, I said he could check them and sponge their hits 1-on-1. Completely different.
You can concur but the points I have contested are about as close to facts as you can get without being facts. Quagsire's typing, ability, moves, and overall package presents a stubborn and dangerous wall which can and will emerge as a bulky sweeper if you aren't prepared for it.
Treecko Edit: You fail to account for the +1 to defense Quagsire will inevitably have either prior to those pokemon coming in or during the first hit. Either way he'll proceed to recover and boost. Noivern lost to +1 Ice Punch.
If you look at Pokemon so statically you're not going to get the real picture of the battle. Quagsire has a lot of switch in opportunity; that includes something else dying because his bulk makes just about everything an initial 2HKO at best and that gives him ample time to properly set up.
Edit2: I didn't say he could switch into them, I said he could check them and sponge their hits 1-on-1. Completely different.
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Excuse my french but why the fuck would these pokemon be switching INTO a curse quagsire... when I could bring in a Mega Venusaur instead and OHKO.
Your entire argument boils down you say saying Quagsire wins if I can sacrifice a pokemon to get it in safely, which is absurd. Quagsire doesn't even win a 1v1 against Shadow Ball Aegislash like you claim, and you keep mentioning what an awesome switch in to generic pokemon, but then go onto saying it gets 2KOed by a lot of things. Im not even sure what you are trying to say.
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
What better way to show Quagsire is trash than getting 2 hitted by an uninvested wall
There's no point trying to check top threats with Quagsire (which it cannot even do reliably) when using it makes your team 30 times worse against anything else.
What better way to show Quagsire is trash than getting 2 hitted by an uninvested wall
There's no point trying to check top threats with Quagsire (which it cannot even do reliably) when using it makes your team 30 times worse against anything else.
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Various things that I saw:
-In order to do a specialized rain team, it's recommend to have a back up user with Rain Dance for if the weater changes or Politoed is dead. Same with Sun, even though there's the alternative of use MCharizard Y + Heat Rock Ninetales
-I forgot MManectric. MManectric outclasses olteon apart of Baton passing Substitute + Agility. Although I think having a mega Stone should be a handicap specially when Manectric is competing for the slot with Lucario, Charizard, Pinsir, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Alakazam, Gyarados, etc.
-Latios. With the nerf of Hidden Power I don't know if HP Fire is relevant. The nerf of HP is of 14% while the nerf of the rest of attacks is 5-7% except his Psychic STAB which is unaffected. And with Specs/Scarf locking into a 60BP un-STAB is not a good idea. Latios has Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, Psychic/psyshock, Ice Beam, Thuderbolt/Thunder, Shadow Ball and Surf.
-Deoxys.S has more qualities of an A+ pokemon than a S pokemon. Same with MVenusaur*, Roitom-W and Heatran. S Pokemon is a pokemon that defines the metagame and is heavy influenced because his existence.
Deoxys-S is considered S Rank because sertting hazards when is not as common as in Gen V because of Defog. I admit that has to be used more than its really used and doesn't deserve in the 60st.
*I don't consider MVenusaur a full S tier because stall is used on less than 3,41% of teams. True that MVenusaur is the Mega on Stall team and that MVenusaur is viable in every team except hyper offense but fits better the A+ tier (top tier threat).
-Blissey is slighty better than Chansey because Blissey has the option of run special attacks (they are weak and usually won't). I discover that Leftovers recovery is enough in taking a Modest Choice Specs Heatran (one of the most powerfu special attacks in OU).
-Kyurem-B would be Ubers if he will learn simply an physical Ice attack. On the Top 10 only Lucario is a counter and Lucario will be probably banned (possibly with Genesect and Aegislash).
-Clefable is better than Quagsire in usign Unaware. Also Clefable has an excellent ability in Magic Guard.
-In order to do a specialized rain team, it's recommend to have a back up user with Rain Dance for if the weater changes or Politoed is dead. Same with Sun, even though there's the alternative of use MCharizard Y + Heat Rock Ninetales
-I forgot MManectric. MManectric outclasses olteon apart of Baton passing Substitute + Agility. Although I think having a mega Stone should be a handicap specially when Manectric is competing for the slot with Lucario, Charizard, Pinsir, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Alakazam, Gyarados, etc.
-Latios. With the nerf of Hidden Power I don't know if HP Fire is relevant. The nerf of HP is of 14% while the nerf of the rest of attacks is 5-7% except his Psychic STAB which is unaffected. And with Specs/Scarf locking into a 60BP un-STAB is not a good idea. Latios has Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, Psychic/psyshock, Ice Beam, Thuderbolt/Thunder, Shadow Ball and Surf.
-Deoxys.S has more qualities of an A+ pokemon than a S pokemon. Same with MVenusaur*, Roitom-W and Heatran. S Pokemon is a pokemon that defines the metagame and is heavy influenced because his existence.
Deoxys-S is considered S Rank because sertting hazards when is not as common as in Gen V because of Defog. I admit that has to be used more than its really used and doesn't deserve in the 60st.
*I don't consider MVenusaur a full S tier because stall is used on less than 3,41% of teams. True that MVenusaur is the Mega on Stall team and that MVenusaur is viable in every team except hyper offense but fits better the A+ tier (top tier threat).
-Blissey is slighty better than Chansey because Blissey has the option of run special attacks (they are weak and usually won't). I discover that Leftovers recovery is enough in taking a Modest Choice Specs Heatran (one of the most powerfu special attacks in OU).
-Kyurem-B would be Ubers if he will learn simply an physical Ice attack. On the Top 10 only Lucario is a counter and Lucario will be probably banned (possibly with Genesect and Aegislash).
-Clefable is better than Quagsire in usign Unaware. Also Clefable has an excellent ability in Magic Guard.
Quagsire has been blacklisted
Depending on whether or not Kabutops was put to C for being a spinner with SR, or for being a rain sweeper, I'm nominating Empoleon for C+ or C respectively.
Since the previous paragraph is solely based on assumptions, I'm hiding it but leaving the necessary stuff out.
On Empoleon's capabilities alone, it has a somewhat good defensive spread of 84/88/101, which can allow it to survive unboosted, unstabbed super effective attacks with investments. Other than that, it is the only user of Defog that actually resists SR, while being able to set it up as well, which grants it a perk. If holding an Air Balloon, Empoleon can threaten common users of SR such as Heatran, Lando-T, Hippowder from its good 111 base SAtk, which hurts even when uninvested. Other than that, it has a good 10 resistances, which actually gives it decent resistance to come in to Defog on various Pokemons.
And nominating Celebi for B-
Celebi is nowhere as good as what it was last gen. It's typing is nowhere as good as what it was last gen, because of the loss of perma rain. Dark and Ghost attacks are everywhere and being weak to those is not a good thing. Talonflame and Genesect are omnipresent and that hurts Celebi a lot. The nail in the coffin is Mega Venusaur, which is 50375687546 times better at being a bulky Grass type.
However, that does not mean Celebi is completely eclipsed by Mega Venusaur. Celebi still excels as a pivot thanks to its key resistances to ground, which means Landorus-I lacking U-turn or Sludge Wave is walled by it (most run Earth Power, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, Psychic if I recall correctly). It also checks Gliscor rather reliably, by shrugging off Toxic, and threatening a OHKO with Leaf Storm. Celebi also has Thunder Wave, making it one of the best spreaders of paralysis in the tier alongside Rotom-H. Other than that, it can also run offensive sets, Baton Pass sets, or even slap on Healing Wish on either set.
Feel free to disagree with either of these opinions
Note: the content in this hide only applies if Kabutops is being ranked based on its support set, otherwise, ignore this quote entirely.
Those 2 carry the same weaknesses to Ground and Electric, and perform the same primary role in their ability to remove hazards while setting up hazards of their own.
At the same time, Empoleon has marginally less physical bulk, and way greater special bulk, allowing it to stick around for longer than Kabutops ever could. That aside, it boasts a whooping 10 resistances which Kabutops can only dream of.
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 276-326 (74.1 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 238-280 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Btw Staraptor is just used as an arbitrary physical attacker, just to demonstrate the difference between bulk of those 2, neither is gonna take on Staraptor anyway)
The only significant advantage that Kabutops has over Empoleon is its ability to wall Talonflame by virtue of its Rock typing. However, Empoleon is still able to take a hit and easily KO back.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 262-309 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 258-306 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO after Flare Blitz recoil)
;tldr
I think Empoleon deserves a better rank than Kabutops because its performs its primary role more reliably than Kabutops, the only reason it wouldn't be is if Kabutops is placed into that rank due to its rain sweeping capabilities, which I doubt is the reason for its placement in C.
Those 2 carry the same weaknesses to Ground and Electric, and perform the same primary role in their ability to remove hazards while setting up hazards of their own.
At the same time, Empoleon has marginally less physical bulk, and way greater special bulk, allowing it to stick around for longer than Kabutops ever could. That aside, it boasts a whooping 10 resistances which Kabutops can only dream of.
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 276-326 (74.1 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 238-280 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Btw Staraptor is just used as an arbitrary physical attacker, just to demonstrate the difference between bulk of those 2, neither is gonna take on Staraptor anyway)
The only significant advantage that Kabutops has over Empoleon is its ability to wall Talonflame by virtue of its Rock typing. However, Empoleon is still able to take a hit and easily KO back.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 262-309 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 258-306 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO after Flare Blitz recoil)
;tldr
I think Empoleon deserves a better rank than Kabutops because its performs its primary role more reliably than Kabutops, the only reason it wouldn't be is if Kabutops is placed into that rank due to its rain sweeping capabilities, which I doubt is the reason for its placement in C.
On Empoleon's capabilities alone, it has a somewhat good defensive spread of 84/88/101, which can allow it to survive unboosted, unstabbed super effective attacks with investments. Other than that, it is the only user of Defog that actually resists SR, while being able to set it up as well, which grants it a perk. If holding an Air Balloon, Empoleon can threaten common users of SR such as Heatran, Lando-T, Hippowder from its good 111 base SAtk, which hurts even when uninvested. Other than that, it has a good 10 resistances, which actually gives it decent resistance to come in to Defog on various Pokemons.
And nominating Celebi for B-
Celebi is nowhere as good as what it was last gen. It's typing is nowhere as good as what it was last gen, because of the loss of perma rain. Dark and Ghost attacks are everywhere and being weak to those is not a good thing. Talonflame and Genesect are omnipresent and that hurts Celebi a lot. The nail in the coffin is Mega Venusaur, which is 50375687546 times better at being a bulky Grass type.
However, that does not mean Celebi is completely eclipsed by Mega Venusaur. Celebi still excels as a pivot thanks to its key resistances to ground, which means Landorus-I lacking U-turn or Sludge Wave is walled by it (most run Earth Power, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, Psychic if I recall correctly). It also checks Gliscor rather reliably, by shrugging off Toxic, and threatening a OHKO with Leaf Storm. Celebi also has Thunder Wave, making it one of the best spreaders of paralysis in the tier alongside Rotom-H. Other than that, it can also run offensive sets, Baton Pass sets, or even slap on Healing Wish on either set.
Feel free to disagree with either of these opinions
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Ugh, not MVenu again. Usage has no effect upon a pokemon's viability- just look at Keldeo. You gave no reason for MVenu to move down aside from how stall is very rare- and then shot down that argument by saying that MVenu is viable on most playstyles anyway. Why is MVenu not S Rank? I think people are taking S Tier to be the tier where every pokemon can OMGSWEEPEVERYTHINGLOL6-0. It isn't. It's the tier where the best of the best go- not only offensively, but defensively and supportively as well. That's why Jirachi and Politoed were S in Gen 5.
Kyurem-B would be ubers if he could make good use of his Attack, I agree. But how is that relevant on a OU viability thread? Genesect is really strong too but I personally don't think it's ubers worthy as of right now, though it is really centralizing. Aegislash is not banworthy, I already explained to you why I don't think it is on the Aegislash thread (low base power attacks, loss of defenses making prediction a huge part of his strategies).
I suspect the only reason Megasaur is still S-rank is because people underestimate flying and psychic, its two weaknesses, as offensive types.
Flying is by no means an uncommon offensive type anymore. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are very common and outright destroy Megasaur with their STAB moves, while not caring about most of its moves aside from a Sleep Powder on the switch, so they can even use it as set-up bait. Then we have things like Air Slash Charizard Y and Togekiss, who only need a single flinch to ruin Megasaur's day, and Brave Bird Skarmory who will still do respectable damage while shrugging off anything Megasaur can throw at it.
And let's not even get started about Hurricane spammers like Tornadus-T and Noivern who are more than happy to face a team with Megasaur instead of something like Megazard Y or Mega Lucario.
Psychic has some seriously powerful attackers such as Alakazam, Latios, LO Deoxys-S, Espeon, Reuniclus and even the occasional Extrasensory Greninja and Stored Power Clefable (who doesn't give a damn about Sludge Bomb after a CM boost).
Of course all the other flaws (Taunt bait, Substitute bait, awful offensive coverage, no Leftovers, no reliable recovery - no, Synthesis isn't reliable, forced out a lot so SR/Spikes damage adds up very quickly, easily crippled by WoW/TW) still apply. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be anywhere close to S-rank.
Flying is by no means an uncommon offensive type anymore. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are very common and outright destroy Megasaur with their STAB moves, while not caring about most of its moves aside from a Sleep Powder on the switch, so they can even use it as set-up bait. Then we have things like Air Slash Charizard Y and Togekiss, who only need a single flinch to ruin Megasaur's day, and Brave Bird Skarmory who will still do respectable damage while shrugging off anything Megasaur can throw at it.
And let's not even get started about Hurricane spammers like Tornadus-T and Noivern who are more than happy to face a team with Megasaur instead of something like Megazard Y or Mega Lucario.
Psychic has some seriously powerful attackers such as Alakazam, Latios, LO Deoxys-S, Espeon, Reuniclus and even the occasional Extrasensory Greninja and Stored Power Clefable (who doesn't give a damn about Sludge Bomb after a CM boost).
Of course all the other flaws (Taunt bait, Substitute bait, awful offensive coverage, no Leftovers, no reliable recovery - no, Synthesis isn't reliable, forced out a lot so SR/Spikes damage adds up very quickly, easily crippled by WoW/TW) still apply. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be anywhere close to S-rank.
But the weakness argument appies for any pokemon- including other S Ranks. Genesect is weak to Fire. Aegislash is weak to Ground. Deoxys is weak to Ghost. Lucario is weak to Fighting. A pokemon having weaknesses is not a bad thing, especially when it's 2 weaknesses are not used for coverage that often outside of Landorus-I, making it much less likely that you're about to get blindsided by a coverage move like Ferro and Heatran have to worry about. I have no idea how a pokemon having weaknesses can be used as a mark in it's disfavor, unless it has a huge amount of them (and Tyranitar was S in gen 5 even with a ton of weaknesses). All your arguments can also be applied to literally every defensive pokemon in the game- every single one is taunt/status bait, every single one is easily counterwalled. Does that ban defensive pokemon from getting S Rank on principle?
Synthesis IS reliable recovery because the only common weather inducers are TTar and CharY, one of which Venu shouldn't stay in on anyway and the other of which it beats. It also gets Giga Drain and Leech Seed. And why do people always talk about lack of lefties as if it's an irredeemable problem that completely shuts off Venu's viability when other defensive pokemon, even ones that actually don't have reliable recovery, are perfectly fine without lefties? Heatran with it's balloon, Ferrothorn/Skarmory and their Rocky Helmets, Chansey and it's eviolite, Deoxys-D and it's Red Card- walls don't need lefties to be viable.
As I stated before, people are making a mistake with S Rank by using the same criteria for every pokemon, when it shouldn't work that way. Perhaps it's the wording of the description giving the impression that S Ranks need to be unstoppable offensive monsters as opposed to unmatched walls or supporters. It makes people so opposed to anything that can't nuke a planet seven times over being S. Venusaur is the best defensive mega, bar none. It has no competition and can be used to great effect as a tank as well, though the stated bad STAB combo doesn't help. It can be easily fit on many teamstyles. Aside from the same arguments that have been stated a dozen times over (and arguments that are hardly unique to Venu), I have yet to see a really good post about it dropping.
Can we blacklist discussion regarding MVenu now?
Kabutops isn't a wall, it's a Rain sweeper. You cannot compare a defensive mon to a hyper offensive mon just like that, mate.
Kabutops isn't a wall, it's a Rain sweeper. You cannot compare a defensive mon to a hyper offensive mon just like that, mate.
EDIT: Apparently I went with the wrong usage stats without reading the date. Still, I'm not sure for which set let Kabutops get the C ranking because it just went up there one day when I checked, and didn't see any arguments or statements on it. If it is really because of the rain sweeper set, then perhaps Empoleon should be just in C or C+, for having a perk of being the only Defog + SR user that resists SR. Rewrote my previous post.
EDIT 2:
You don't have to be so offensive in that comment. I based my argument on an outdated usage stats so it might be erroneous, and I updated the previous post regardless since I recognised that I was basing my argument off the wrong usage stats. And again, I believe I also did mention that my calcs are just arbitrary to show the comparison of bulk, which might be deemed irrelevant if Kabutops' ranking is not due to the support set. Anyway, SR/RS/Aqua Jet/Stone Edge is definitely support oriented, just like how Excadril's SR/RS/EQ/Iron Head is. I think you misread SR as SD.
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2 things:
1) Kaputops is not a wall. Its a very offensive rain Pokemon. Drizzle + SS is legal now. Its a lot like Excadrill in that its meant to dent things first and then spin if it has a chance.
2) Your calcs are really stupid...they literally don't say anything positive about Empoleon and undermines his walling capability (which he doesn't have in OU anyway)
EDIT:
How in the world is this a support set? Thats like saying LO Starmie with Surf/BoltBeam/RS is a support set...
That was in 5th Gen RU.
And the set ran max attack, max speed with Life Orb or Lum Berry
While you guys discuss Mega Venusaur AGAIN Ill nominate Celebi for B+
Celebi feels very strong this generation. When first thinking of Celebi, you can recognise it as one of the primary Rotom-W counters- being unafraid of any will-o-wisps due to natural cure, and resisting both STABs whilst being somewhat immune to getting chipped down due to aforementioned natural cure + recover, Celebi can take anything from the washing machine and retaliate with a supereffective attack- or he can absorb the hit and u-turn out, stealing momentum from the momentum stealer himself.
Celebi's stats are well-rounded, providing no real disappointments as a support pokemon and giving it a wide range of set options to go with its incredible movepool- 100 speed is enough to use choice scarf to good effect, while 100 Special attack gives Celebi the option to go offensive with Nasty Plot.
But this is all stuff which we know from last generation. This gen, its worth noting that Grass types got a buff to their typing, becoming sleep absorbers by negating the effects of Sleep Powder and Spore, whilst also avoiding the rare Stun Spore. This gives Celebi additional utility vs the likes of Breloom, resisting all of it's usual attacks and being immune to any leech seeds or spores, and ohkoing back.
At full hp, specially defensive Celebi can switch into special Mega Venusaur's Giga Drain or Sleep Powder and 2hko it with psychic, whilst avoiding a ko from giga drain + sludge bomb- this is with only a small amount of special attack investment on Celebi's part. Celebi also handily beats the physical sets, avoid a 3hko from knock off and resisting earthquake, and also being immune to sleep powder and leech seed makes its life a lot easier.
The more specially defensive Venusaur gets, the more of a stalemate it becomes, with both becoming unlikely to 2hko the other and with Celebi being able to not be too effected by the 30% poison chance due to natural cure.
56 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 222-264 (56.7 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Celebi is also (surprisingly) a good check to specially defensive heatran this gen, who is seeing increased use also as a stealth rock setter and pivot.
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 156-186 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 192-228 (49.7 - 59%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Other notable perks to Celebi is resistance to Earthquake, and the surprising ability to check a large number of offensive threats even physically- for instance, scarfchomp struggles to deal over 50% to even 0/0 Celebi, with only the suicidal Outrage being enough. Mega Garchomp only has a 20% chance of a 2hko on 0/0 Celebi with dragon claw.
tl;dr Psychic got weaker this generation defensively, with Dark and Ghost becoming more popular, but similarly Grass types got stronger defensively, due to Rotom-W topping the usage charts and the additional buffs it got being able to avoid common sleep moves. Sadly the introduction of Genesect back into the meta hurts Celebi's soul and a very niche offensive typing prevents Celebi from rising much higher. But with the versatility of Clefable, a fantastic team ability to be status absorber, and all of the necessary stats to back up any of its endeavours I feel like Celebi should be put into B+.
His vulnerability to all entry hazards affects his ability to pivot, but access to reliable recovery as a pivot as well as Giga Drain helps him in other ways.
Celebi's stats are well-rounded, providing no real disappointments as a support pokemon and giving it a wide range of set options to go with its incredible movepool- 100 speed is enough to use choice scarf to good effect, while 100 Special attack gives Celebi the option to go offensive with Nasty Plot.
But this is all stuff which we know from last generation. This gen, its worth noting that Grass types got a buff to their typing, becoming sleep absorbers by negating the effects of Sleep Powder and Spore, whilst also avoiding the rare Stun Spore. This gives Celebi additional utility vs the likes of Breloom, resisting all of it's usual attacks and being immune to any leech seeds or spores, and ohkoing back.
At full hp, specially defensive Celebi can switch into special Mega Venusaur's Giga Drain or Sleep Powder and 2hko it with psychic, whilst avoiding a ko from giga drain + sludge bomb- this is with only a small amount of special attack investment on Celebi's part. Celebi also handily beats the physical sets, avoid a 3hko from knock off and resisting earthquake, and also being immune to sleep powder and leech seed makes its life a lot easier.
The more specially defensive Venusaur gets, the more of a stalemate it becomes, with both becoming unlikely to 2hko the other and with Celebi being able to not be too effected by the 30% poison chance due to natural cure.
56 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 222-264 (56.7 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Celebi is also (surprisingly) a good check to specially defensive heatran this gen, who is seeing increased use also as a stealth rock setter and pivot.
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 156-186 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 192-228 (49.7 - 59%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Other notable perks to Celebi is resistance to Earthquake, and the surprising ability to check a large number of offensive threats even physically- for instance, scarfchomp struggles to deal over 50% to even 0/0 Celebi, with only the suicidal Outrage being enough. Mega Garchomp only has a 20% chance of a 2hko on 0/0 Celebi with dragon claw.
tl;dr Psychic got weaker this generation defensively, with Dark and Ghost becoming more popular, but similarly Grass types got stronger defensively, due to Rotom-W topping the usage charts and the additional buffs it got being able to avoid common sleep moves. Sadly the introduction of Genesect back into the meta hurts Celebi's soul and a very niche offensive typing prevents Celebi from rising much higher. But with the versatility of Clefable, a fantastic team ability to be status absorber, and all of the necessary stats to back up any of its endeavours I feel like Celebi should be put into B+.
His vulnerability to all entry hazards affects his ability to pivot, but access to reliable recovery as a pivot as well as Giga Drain helps him in other ways.
Should blacklist MVenu while you're at it. xD
Still wondering where Rotom-H and Pory2 are in the list. Still got a huge chunk of the OU to cover and I already said my reasoning for those two to be up there (I know for sure that Pory2 and Rotom-H has an analysis waiting for check.).
Still wondering where Rotom-H and Pory2 are in the list. Still got a huge chunk of the OU to cover and I already said my reasoning for those two to be up there (I know for sure that Pory2 and Rotom-H has an analysis waiting for check.).
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I personally find Celebi a lot more effective than I thought it would be. It's a full stop to Rotom-W for one, and for two it absorbs Status really well. I prefer the offensive spread nowadays, as you really don't need any SpDef to come in on Rotom-W and the extra power and speed is huge. Celebi lures Heatran with Earth Power like no other, and Talonflame takes a lot from Psychic. I also like predicting Genesect and Aegislash with Earth Power, as it really weakens them quickly over time. Combine Celebi with Heatran and you have a great answer to Volt-Turn and a solid defensive core. Definitely B+.
STAB is more important than coverage. If you have 15 Top threats that you struggle, you aren't an S rank. Having weakness is important for a wall. Tyranitar was S in Gen V because in top of all of the good qualities of Tyranitar had infinite Sands Stream. Tyranitar was the reason why Excadrill was banned.
Pokemon that can beat Mvenusaur 1vs1 as far as I'm aware (I use PO stats):
Aegislash, Talonflame, Genesect, MCharizard-X, MCharizard-Y, Heatran, Scizor (Mega or not), Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Skarmory, Espeon, Mawile, Alakazam (Mega or not), Latios, Goodra, Bisharp, Volcarona,// Latias, Chandelure, Metagross, Jirachi, Arcanine, Snorlax, MAbsol, Crobat.
Legend: Counter in bold, Unreliable check on italic.
An S-rank pokemon should wall most of the metagame; not 6 of the Top 10 be checker or counters of him. A Pokemon in S rank don't have at least 4 pure counters, various reliable checks.
And Pokemon that MVenusaur walls all day:
-Rotom-W*, Greninja, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, Mamoswine, Cloyster, Clefable, Starmie, Gardevoir, Sylveon, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Donphan, Blastoise, Manectric, Quagsire, Jellicent, Florges, Keldeo, Swampert, Diggersby, Politoed, Milotic, Hippowdon. (well, a number of them)
Aegislash, Lucario and Mvenusaur are not comparable because MVenusaur is a wall, the other two aren't. And resist attacks as well as Aegislash, which has 150 Base Attack AND Special Attack and the ability of hold Weakness Policy (one of the few pokemon that can use it), Life orb, 12 types resist oir are inmune to his attacks (Venusaur has 5 resist, and a inmunity to Posion status (like Aegislash)), perfect coverage, and the risk that a physical attacker can be crippled by King Shield.
-Genesect is the best U-turner of the metagame, has a choice Scarf with excellent coverage and very unpredictable, can use a Shift Gear set, and abuse Download, which gives him a +1 boost to his already high 120 Base Stat. and has only one weakness to Dire that can be patched easily unlike MVenusaur who have to patch out Flying, Psychic and Steel.
-And Mega Lucario has been declared Uber by the Pokemon Online community because the sheeer power of the Swords Dance and Nasty Plot sets, the unpredictability of wat it's wearing, having an extremely powerful priority, having insane STABs.
But apart of that I think that Jirachi should be B+ tier (or even A tier). True that the Steel nerf give him two weakness but it has good things with many resistances, possibly of offensive and defensive set, great ways of paralysis, annoying attacks like Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, can U-turn in unfavourable match up, reliable SR setter, can pass 202 HP wishes (and it's not from a rare New York event), can hoild Choice Scarf, can use a Calm Mind variant,
Pokemon that can beat Mvenusaur 1vs1 as far as I'm aware (I use PO stats):
Aegislash, Talonflame, Genesect, MCharizard-X, MCharizard-Y, Heatran, Scizor (Mega or not), Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Skarmory, Espeon, Mawile, Alakazam (Mega or not), Latios, Goodra, Bisharp, Volcarona,// Latias, Chandelure, Metagross, Jirachi, Arcanine, Snorlax, MAbsol, Crobat.
Legend: Counter in bold, Unreliable check on italic.
An S-rank pokemon should wall most of the metagame; not 6 of the Top 10 be checker or counters of him. A Pokemon in S rank don't have at least 4 pure counters, various reliable checks.
And Pokemon that MVenusaur walls all day:
-Rotom-W*, Greninja, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, Mamoswine, Cloyster, Clefable, Starmie, Gardevoir, Sylveon, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Donphan, Blastoise, Manectric, Quagsire, Jellicent, Florges, Keldeo, Swampert, Diggersby, Politoed, Milotic, Hippowdon. (well, a number of them)
Aegislash, Lucario and Mvenusaur are not comparable because MVenusaur is a wall, the other two aren't. And resist attacks as well as Aegislash, which has 150 Base Attack AND Special Attack and the ability of hold Weakness Policy (one of the few pokemon that can use it), Life orb, 12 types resist oir are inmune to his attacks (Venusaur has 5 resist, and a inmunity to Posion status (like Aegislash)), perfect coverage, and the risk that a physical attacker can be crippled by King Shield.
-Genesect is the best U-turner of the metagame, has a choice Scarf with excellent coverage and very unpredictable, can use a Shift Gear set, and abuse Download, which gives him a +1 boost to his already high 120 Base Stat. and has only one weakness to Dire that can be patched easily unlike MVenusaur who have to patch out Flying, Psychic and Steel.
-And Mega Lucario has been declared Uber by the Pokemon Online community because the sheeer power of the Swords Dance and Nasty Plot sets, the unpredictability of wat it's wearing, having an extremely powerful priority, having insane STABs.
But apart of that I think that Jirachi should be B+ tier (or even A tier). True that the Steel nerf give him two weakness but it has good things with many resistances, possibly of offensive and defensive set, great ways of paralysis, annoying attacks like Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, can U-turn in unfavourable match up, reliable SR setter, can pass 202 HP wishes (and it's not from a rare New York event), can hoild Choice Scarf, can use a Calm Mind variant,
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Yeah blacklist discussion about Mega Venu too. Blacklists should probably last for about 2-4 suspect testing rounds because in that time a meta can change and viability can change so maybe leave a counter next to the blacklisted Pokemon unless it's something stupid like Arcanine
Anyways I've been using Mega Manetric and it really hasn't been getting the job done. Needs to be demoted down a little bit to B-. This thing looks threatening but when you realize it takes up your mega spot and it can't use an item it really isn't that nice. It can pick off weakened mons but it lacks the overall power to go on a sweep. It has... weird coverage in Electric/Fire that is kind of helpful but really a base 135 SpA seems nice but when a base 125 SpA with Life Orb is about the same damage and doesn't take up your mega spot Thundurus looks a lot better. Intimidate with Volt Switch is nice but he still struggles to live long enough and doesn't have much power in practice against this bulkier meta.
Anyways I've been using Mega Manetric and it really hasn't been getting the job done. Needs to be demoted down a little bit to B-. This thing looks threatening but when you realize it takes up your mega spot and it can't use an item it really isn't that nice. It can pick off weakened mons but it lacks the overall power to go on a sweep. It has... weird coverage in Electric/Fire that is kind of helpful but really a base 135 SpA seems nice but when a base 125 SpA with Life Orb is about the same damage and doesn't take up your mega spot Thundurus looks a lot better. Intimidate with Volt Switch is nice but he still struggles to live long enough and doesn't have much power in practice against this bulkier meta.
Once again you make the mistake of thinking of Venusaur in an offensive capacity. There is much more of the metagame than the top 10, and MVenu walls most of it. And how does genesect counter MVenu? Are you forgetting Thick Fat?
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 216-256 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 292-344 (103.1 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
There is no way that Genesect counters MVenu- sure it can wall variants without HP Fire, but HP Fire is a common move on Venu.
Also: Heatran is another bad "counter".
0- Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 92-110 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Seriously, are you just looking at type advantages and thinking that a pokemon counters MVenu based purely upon that? You literally just named every pokemon in OU that has a type advantage (either offensively or defensively) and never got beyond that. MVenu not only walls most of the metagame not mentioned in your list, but it walls many of the ones mentioned too. It also has a very good movepool, allowing it to get around many pokemon that may threaten it.
Yes, blacklist MVenu from discussion! We have had no productive comments about it losing it's S status and all it's doing is clogging up more productive discussion.
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- Status