You still prepare for Lucario the same way as it uses the same set.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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You still prepare for Lucario the same way as it uses the same set.
I honestly think we're discussing Mega Lucario too much; anyone who has played this game for a grand total of five seconds should know that he is unbelievably overpowered. Genesect and Deoxys-S, on the other hand, are much more borderline suspects than he is, and thus should be the main subjects of debate.
I do realise, that Genesect really does revenge-kill some of the most dangerous things in the metagame, like most of the top-tier megas. And probably this efficiency at revenge-killing really does keep them in check, even balances them. Now, if Genesect's capabilities ended here, I would be content with it being OU - but unfortunately as we have it now, it's something, that not only creates 50/50 scenarios just by its presence, but forces a player to make guesses on its set to check it, probably losing a crucial team member as he does, and cheaply gains momentum guaranteed and unanswerably. And revenges top-tier maybe-broken megas.
Having this as a balancing force in the metagame, I think is a really bad solution, and probably not a too long lasting one. It's like eating mercury to treat syphillis.
I'm actually of the impression that, were M-Luke but not Genesect banned, Genesect would only increase its influence. Because the need to revenge the currently most broken mega gone, it can branch out of its usual Choice Scarf set. Right now you usually assume, it's scarved, with unfortunate consequences if not, but the six or seven other sets it has becoming more common would make its brokenness stand out even more.
Having this as a balancing force in the metagame, I think is a really bad solution, and probably not a too long lasting one. It's like eating mercury to treat syphillis.
I'm actually of the impression that, were M-Luke but not Genesect banned, Genesect would only increase its influence. Because the need to revenge the currently most broken mega gone, it can branch out of its usual Choice Scarf set. Right now you usually assume, it's scarved, with unfortunate consequences if not, but the six or seven other sets it has becoming more common would make its brokenness stand out even more.
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Deoxys-S has a lot more counterplay than last generation while Genesect fits into the power creep, but I still think its by far the best scarf user in the tier. For whatever reason, Heatran is ridiculously good this gen and is probably the one thing holding it back from a certain ban. Back to Deoxys-S, it excels at everything it does, even though it has relatively weak offensive stats it has a lot going for it. It's movepool is absurd and is clearly superior than any other Pokemon at laying hazards.
Mega Luke is gone, Genesect is 50/50ish and sadly I think Deoxys-S will stay.
Mega Luke is gone, Genesect is 50/50ish and sadly I think Deoxys-S will stay.
Well in my oppinion Mega Lucario is really strong and scary with few ways to play around it and should therefor he should be banned. A really great lategame sweeper that get's his job done and forces the oppnant too play much more defensivly untill he know what seylt it runs.
Genesect are even more threatening in my eyes. It can run so many sets and when you find out it's not the scarf set it's often to late to think of a new plan. Sure heatran is a counter, but he's easy to wear down with the "double dragon" strategy so lategame it's just too sweep through him. Sure he checks a lot of other things but any team lacking a heatran have been easy to set up and sweep with shift gear by just playing ok. I don't want to keep him even through I love using him. Unless the suspect ladder proovs otherwise.
Deoxys-S on the other hand have never bothered my teams so far. And I've tried xy stall to hyper offence. The defog buff just really hinders him, sure he can really get his job done and it can be hard to stop him. But once you have stopped him or grabbed the momentum from him he's not that scary at all.
Genesect are even more threatening in my eyes. It can run so many sets and when you find out it's not the scarf set it's often to late to think of a new plan. Sure heatran is a counter, but he's easy to wear down with the "double dragon" strategy so lategame it's just too sweep through him. Sure he checks a lot of other things but any team lacking a heatran have been easy to set up and sweep with shift gear by just playing ok. I don't want to keep him even through I love using him. Unless the suspect ladder proovs otherwise.
Deoxys-S on the other hand have never bothered my teams so far. And I've tried xy stall to hyper offence. The defog buff just really hinders him, sure he can really get his job done and it can be hard to stop him. But once you have stopped him or grabbed the momentum from him he's not that scary at all.
Scratch that Quagsire thing, but still. As for the Darmanitan part, it gets U-Turn. Allowing you to force a switch and get you a set-up of your own, or you can just kill it. Lucario can't do much to it even with priority at +2.
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 306-360 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Only around a 1/5 chance to OHKO, which means that more than likely it will survive)
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (
As for that last part, I'm wondering why SMOGON feels that these pokemon need suspect testing, and not the community.
You even failed to answer my question: Let's be honest here, has Lucario ever been THAT much of a problem for you?
So Darmanitan is OHKO'd by Luke's priority after Stealth Rock- which is up much of the time anyway, even with defog. It can't switch in and even if it manages to somehow it's going to die. That means it is not a counter or a check, not even close. And the community DOES feel that those pokemon need suspect testing- people have been asking for them to be banned for a while, especially Mega-Lucario and Genesect. That's why Smogon has put them up for suspect testing, because Smogon is a community. Finally: I'm not Treecko, but Mega Luke IS a problem, it wouldn't be suspected otherwise. I assume Treecko has had problems with MegaLuke, anybody who has faced one with a decent player behind it has- even if you haven't.
The fact that your arguments boil down to saying that it can be revenge killed (which applies to pretty much any pokemon in the game), and how you don't seem to understand that Smogon is a community and that your impression of it is that it is just testing these pokemon arbitrarily tells me that you haven't seen much of our discussion, or you don't know how Smogon works. It also makes me wonder if you have the experience to be taking part in this discussion
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Well the council receives and monitors feedback all the time aside from being players themselves and witnessing the metagame firsthand, so when the council announces suspect tests (which do not mean the pokemon in question are gonna be banned anyway), it will do so after careful observation and consultation.
Smogon is a community.
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Alright I'll talk about the pokemon I know intimately (Deo-S finishes too fast in bad so I'll screw him first) then end with MLuca.
Deo-S retains many of his annoying qualities from last gen, he is unpredictable as frak (really the definition of the word), speed demon and that gives it many options EV wise, and cannot be stopped most of the time from doing what it does best and most, laying down hazards. It's movepool is advanced and even the wrong assumption can make you go behind one or two pokemon at no cost for the Deo-S user.
However, a lot of things happened this gen as well, most importantly Defog. As you all know Deo-S isn't the bulkiest pokemon around (slightly giving Alakzam gitters in the annual pokemon anorexia competition), and it's hazard laying set only has one attacking option most of the time, leaving it highly unlikely to being able to lay down hazards again. And unlike gen5, you cannot spinblock Defog, so if the opponent gets only one chance to clear hazards later in the game, your mostly dead Deo-S becomes useless and you lost a slot of a mon with no gain. Not to mention already available excellent spinners such as Drill or pranksters with Taunt such as Thundrus-I.
Second of all, the meta has shifted to bulkier, more sturdy mons that don't lose anything bite but are much harder to kill, and even get the advantage of priorities. Well you might gain the surprise factor and use it to your advantage, the opponent will not waste anytime to send his response once your cards are revealed.
I now consider Deo-S a high risk, high reward pokemon, and depends highly on the players skill and ability to keep offensive pressure/switching opportunities to keep him alive/hazards on field. Deo-S for me isn't uber material but I think it will hang on to lower OU usage and find it's suitable playstyle and stick with it.
Genesect is bloody annoying, you don't know what it has or going to do (it has U-Turn which often gets boosted to mask this) and most of the time it's items don't have telling signs until after much confrontation. It has an acceptable speed tier which makes it's scarf set good (in a meta where scarfs are almost dying), no need to boost as Download often preys on the weaker side of the foe, and great boosting moves such as RP and Shift Gear as well as having an extensive movepool to hit hard on everything SE or not with much force.
How do you deal with this thing? Well until you know what it is, you just send out your bulkiest option, ones that don't fear it that much and hope it actually attacks you instead of U-Turning out, or have a scarfer of your own, or a prankster, it's not unreasonable to say that you suffer quite a bit in this thinking process, it's not a matter of "what's a great gene anti-lead" as much as its "how do I suffer less and manage to trick it early on". This isn't either healthy for the metagame or fair if you can find a nonsubjective definition for the term in OU, therefore I'd like to see this banned.
MLuca is the pokemon I will say least about and will leave an undecided opinion, mainly because I run a certain playstyle and MLuca when not in a position to use CC Super Effectively or at least hit strong with his other coverage move, will suffer heavily whenever it tries to set up against practically any member of an HO team or even Bulky offensive team (BU offense =/= Balance team) where any member can hit it very hard and prey on it's mostly non ev'd, frail bulk.
However, this test concerns all teams, and as such his options to boost are wide and readily available and the fact that he gets 112 Speed is very annoying and his Adaptability powering a 120 Fight move and a priority that already nukes it main resistor has to be taken into account, and he gets both the stats and the boosting moves/movepools to play SpA or ATK with immediate power and as such is unpredictable and any prediction about the wall you send against it or check/counter can spell your end. I'm sitting this one out and will base my opinion of this mon on other posts whenever I finish my suspect reqs,thanks.
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I think that MegaLuke needs ban asap. It's so broken and can't stay in OU.
Deo-S isn't powerful: it's surclassed as setter.. the best role is a lategame sweeper cuz the damages are ridicolous: for example u can't ohko ttar with Superpower if u want ohko Conkeldurr Assault Veist with Psycho Boost.
Genesect absolutly doesn't need a ban: he is revengekillable and his speed isn't so high. Heatran can pown him eccept for Hidden Power ground but HPGroundSect is rare.
Deo-S isn't powerful: it's surclassed as setter.. the best role is a lategame sweeper cuz the damages are ridicolous: for example u can't ohko ttar with Superpower if u want ohko Conkeldurr Assault Veist with Psycho Boost.
Genesect absolutly doesn't need a ban: he is revengekillable and his speed isn't so high. Heatran can pown him eccept for Hidden Power ground but HPGroundSect is rare.
OU reqs - http://s1334.photobucket.com/user/Mark_Ashley_Moran/media/round1suspectreqs_zpsb2613412.png.html
Here are my views on the 3 suspects.
Lucario - Yeah, this is probably going to be banned. It's incredible power, speed, and ability to run completely different sets, which requires completely different counters is too powerful. Lucario can sweep teams with such little support, and there are only a few offensive and defensive checks to it. Every stall team requires Venusaur or Zapdos or you will get 6-0d by Lucario, simple as that. Offensive teams do handle Lucario better, as Choice Scarf Pokemon can revenge kill him, as well as Talonflame, but apart from that Lucario is really just too good.
Deoxys-S - I think it's ability to set up entry hazards isn't nearly as scary as it used to be, just because Excadrill and Defog users can remove them pretty easily. HO teams go to a lot of trouble just to keep their hazards up (using Bisharp + a spin blocker), and even then they can be removed. The full out attacker set is still incredibly dangerous with it's incredible speed and coverage, but is it ban worthy? I don't think so.
Genesect - I'm one the fence with Genesect. I mean, most teams have a solid check to Genesect, like Charizard, Aegislash, Talonflame, Heatran etc. But Genesect can run so many sets, and it's very easy to wear down it's checks. I think the scariest thing about Genesect is it's ability to run so many different sets, and it's amazing at all of them. I think if I had to vote now, I'd probably ban it, but again I'm on the fence, and I'll need to see more arguments for it before I make my final decision.
Looking foward for the Suspect ladder to be up and running.
Here are my views on the 3 suspects.
Lucario - Yeah, this is probably going to be banned. It's incredible power, speed, and ability to run completely different sets, which requires completely different counters is too powerful. Lucario can sweep teams with such little support, and there are only a few offensive and defensive checks to it. Every stall team requires Venusaur or Zapdos or you will get 6-0d by Lucario, simple as that. Offensive teams do handle Lucario better, as Choice Scarf Pokemon can revenge kill him, as well as Talonflame, but apart from that Lucario is really just too good.
Deoxys-S - I think it's ability to set up entry hazards isn't nearly as scary as it used to be, just because Excadrill and Defog users can remove them pretty easily. HO teams go to a lot of trouble just to keep their hazards up (using Bisharp + a spin blocker), and even then they can be removed. The full out attacker set is still incredibly dangerous with it's incredible speed and coverage, but is it ban worthy? I don't think so.
Genesect - I'm one the fence with Genesect. I mean, most teams have a solid check to Genesect, like Charizard, Aegislash, Talonflame, Heatran etc. But Genesect can run so many sets, and it's very easy to wear down it's checks. I think the scariest thing about Genesect is it's ability to run so many different sets, and it's amazing at all of them. I think if I had to vote now, I'd probably ban it, but again I'm on the fence, and I'll need to see more arguments for it before I make my final decision.
Looking foward for the Suspect ladder to be up and running.
I can see only LucarioM getting banned, but other then that no.
umm
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 330-393 (94 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 455-538 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Life orb :o but with lifeorb surprise kills are aspected
Scenario one:
Round 1:
You withdrew Pokémon X!
You sent out Azumarill!
The opposing M-Luc used SD/NP!
Round 2:
The opposing M-Luc used Close Combat/ Flash Cannon!
Azumarill lost 84.4 - 99.5/72.7 - 86.1% of its health
Azumarill used Superpower!
The opposing M-Luc lost 100% of its health
Scenario two:
Round 1:
You withdrew Pokémon X!
You sent out Azumarill!
The opposing M-Luc used Close Combat/ Flash Cannon!
Azumarill lost 42 - 49.7/36.6 - 43.5% of its health
Round 2:
The opposing M-Luc used Close Combat/ Flash Cannon!
Azumarill lost 42 - 49.7/36.6 - 43.5% of its health
Azumarillused Superpower!
The opposing M-Luc lost 100% of its health
Hmm...it begins. Might as well shoot off what I think and then try to ladder on an alternate account later to see if I can reach up there.
Mega Lucario is the obvious "please ban" Pokemon for multiple reasons. The ability to go Physical or Special (I once fought a mixed one) and its sheer power makes the Mega Jackal that much more difficult to handle. There are typically no safe switch-ins (even some unresisted hits will hurt quite a bit) and it has a curse that I cannot stand. It was mentioned before, but Mega Lucario is a Pokemon that bad players can just stick on a team and do better with. There were other Pokemon like this, but some of them required some thinking and some play-around. Landorus-I, for instance, could use either Physical or Special sets in Sandstorm back when weather was permanent, so one could opt for the Special Set to throw everybody off. Mega Lucario is simply uncompetitive (as in...it's absolutely broken, as the mere threat of it can center a meta around it). I, once again, believe that Mega Lucario should be Uber.
I'm on the fence with Genesect. While in OU, I've noticed that Heatran is a good answer against it, but then again...it's Heatran. It's just a good Pokemon. Scarf Genesect is still as annoying as ever, but is it Ban Worthy? The Shift Gear set is also irritating, but I'm just unsure about it right now. I've used it to serious success (the Scarf Set even got me a Comeback, which is rare for a Pokemon outside of Gengar and Landorus-I), but I wouldn't call it unstoppable...then again, that's just me.
Deoxys-S...Haunter was pretty damn honest here about it being first. I'm actually perfectly fine with Deoxys-S in OU (remember that I've had some serious testing and experience behind it--I'm the guy that made the thread after it), but I will not deny that Deoxys-S is a serious threat. Hazards can be quite annoying, especially with Taunt and an Attack for back up, Dual Screens, while better on Deoxys-D, can throw trainers off, Trick Scarf is just...hilarious, and the Mixed Offensive Set hits many Pokemon for Super-Effective damage and 2HKOing many threats. Some survive like Ferrothorn and Chansey, which can take Fire Punch and Superpower respectively, and only be 3HKO'd (or less in Chansey's case), but other large threats will have some difficulty switching into Deoxys-S without a good amount of bulk (I'm telling you, guys...Super-Effective damage makes all the difference). Offensive Deoxys-S is a threat against Hyper Offense, but not TOO much else, while Support Deoxys-S can threaten many teams, especially without knowing the single attack Deoxys-S has. Excellent Pokemon? Absolutely. Ban Worthy? I don't believe so--though if it does go Uber, I won't argue against it.
Mega Lucario is the obvious "please ban" Pokemon for multiple reasons. The ability to go Physical or Special (I once fought a mixed one) and its sheer power makes the Mega Jackal that much more difficult to handle. There are typically no safe switch-ins (even some unresisted hits will hurt quite a bit) and it has a curse that I cannot stand. It was mentioned before, but Mega Lucario is a Pokemon that bad players can just stick on a team and do better with. There were other Pokemon like this, but some of them required some thinking and some play-around. Landorus-I, for instance, could use either Physical or Special sets in Sandstorm back when weather was permanent, so one could opt for the Special Set to throw everybody off. Mega Lucario is simply uncompetitive (as in...it's absolutely broken, as the mere threat of it can center a meta around it). I, once again, believe that Mega Lucario should be Uber.
I'm on the fence with Genesect. While in OU, I've noticed that Heatran is a good answer against it, but then again...it's Heatran. It's just a good Pokemon. Scarf Genesect is still as annoying as ever, but is it Ban Worthy? The Shift Gear set is also irritating, but I'm just unsure about it right now. I've used it to serious success (the Scarf Set even got me a Comeback, which is rare for a Pokemon outside of Gengar and Landorus-I), but I wouldn't call it unstoppable...then again, that's just me.
Deoxys-S...Haunter was pretty damn honest here about it being first. I'm actually perfectly fine with Deoxys-S in OU (remember that I've had some serious testing and experience behind it--I'm the guy that made the thread after it), but I will not deny that Deoxys-S is a serious threat. Hazards can be quite annoying, especially with Taunt and an Attack for back up, Dual Screens, while better on Deoxys-D, can throw trainers off, Trick Scarf is just...hilarious, and the Mixed Offensive Set hits many Pokemon for Super-Effective damage and 2HKOing many threats. Some survive like Ferrothorn and Chansey, which can take Fire Punch and Superpower respectively, and only be 3HKO'd (or less in Chansey's case), but other large threats will have some difficulty switching into Deoxys-S without a good amount of bulk (I'm telling you, guys...Super-Effective damage makes all the difference). Offensive Deoxys-S is a threat against Hyper Offense, but not TOO much else, while Support Deoxys-S can threaten many teams, especially without knowing the single attack Deoxys-S has. Excellent Pokemon? Absolutely. Ban Worthy? I don't believe so--though if it does go Uber, I won't argue against it.
It says even under the worst scenario, which in this case, is SR being up (spikes is kinda overkill). So Azumarill is not a counter to SD Lucario, and needs an assault vest to beat special Lucario.
88+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168 Def Azumarill: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168 Def Azumarill: 281-331 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Lol who runs Defensive Azumarill with Super Power
The ones who actually want to counter M-Luc, the fact that no one does something like that speaks for itself.
...So what you're saying is that people who "want to counter Mega Lucario" have to run weird and otherwise terrible sets? This just reinforces pro-ban arguments.
I think you have something mistaken here...these suspect's are only for SMOGON's metagames...not other community metagames...
This (mostly democratic) process states what are suspects, allows people to discuss them, and allows the (qualifying) people to vote on them. If bans occur, they only occur on SMOGON ladders on SMOGON servers.
If other communities feel these SMOGON bans for SMOGON metagames are not viable, they are obviously welcome to use whatever bans they want on their own servers.
while we're on the subject of extremely obscure and niche 'counters'
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 296-350 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 316-372 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lucario: 288-342 (102.4 - 121.7%)
easy.
edit: after further analysis the set can be optimized to also beat gene and deo, golurk is pretty legit
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Golurk: 296-350 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 316-372 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lucario: 288-342 (102.4 - 121.7%)
easy.
edit: after further analysis the set can be optimized to also beat gene and deo, golurk is pretty legit
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